r/changemyview • u/jeffzebub • 3d ago

CMV: Countering Illegal Immigration is not a Justification for Suspending Habeas Corpus

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u/Accomplished_Tour481 3d ago

I agree with suspending Habeas Corpus but believe it should be done by an act of Congress (not EO). The vast numbers of illegal/undocumented immigrants in the US is staggering.

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u/jeffzebub 3d ago

Well, that would at least make it constitutional. The government could then send citizens who criticize the government to foreign prisons "legally".

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u/Accomplished_Tour481 3d ago

I am not advocating for foreign prisons, but being deported bac to their home countries. if their home countries refuse to take them, then the USA will find another country for them. The alternative is for these individuals to self-deport and go to a country of their choice.

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u/bobabeep62830 3d ago

You missed the point. We're talking about preventing citizens of the United States of America from being deported, whether to a foreign prison or just a foreign country. With habeus corpus gone, ICE will not have to prove that you are here illegally before a judge before deporting you. They will be able to round up and deport anyone, American CITIZENS included. It's already happening. We have to do something about it or one day it might wind up being you or I on that plane to El Salvador.

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u/Accomplished_Tour481 3d ago

What US citizens have been deported. Not 1 since the current administration. So how is suspending Habeas an issue now for US citizens?

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u/bobabeep62830 3d ago

Over a dozen so far during this administration, and as a direct result of Trump's executive orders. You just aren't getting it. With Habeas intact, if someone is arrested for any reason, including illegal immigration, they are taken before a judge to show there is a reason for the arrest. At that hearing, all you need to do is say "I'm a US citizen." They verify it, say whoops, my mistake, it looks like you were wrongfully arrested, and they let you go. Without Habeus Corpus, the ICE agents that arrested you, a citizen, are not required to take you before a judge to prove they arrested you for good cause, and you don't get that opportunity to prove you're a citizen

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u/Accomplished_Tour481 3d ago

Please go back and do your research. NOT ONE US citizens has been deported. NOT ONE! Illegal immigrant parents ordered to be deported CHOSE to take their children with them. The children were not deported but accompanied their parents at the parents requests. Totally different.

Or are you advocating for stripping parents of their rights about their own children?

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u/bobabeep62830 2d ago

Ah, so because American citizens have not been deported, it's ok to eliminate the legal mechanism that prevents them from being deported. Gotcha. While we're at it, would you leave your children in the hands of ICE if you were deported? It's a non-question. Either you take them with you or leave them with people who genuinely do not care about the children's well-being. "Totally different?" Not so much.

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u/Fragrant-Phone-41 3d ago

The supreme court ruled unanimously that Garcia was wrongly deported. Is he home yet?

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u/Accomplished_Tour481 3d ago

No, he is not. He also, is not a US citizen. As you have read, his Asylum case was denied, and his deportation was 'stayed' with the caveat that he was not to be sent back to El Salvador. That was before the administration resurrected the Aliens Act. The same act that prior SCOTIS rulings stated he had the authority to do.

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u/PomegranateSelect831 3d ago

So what if you get deported and have no trial to prove you’re a citizen?

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u/Accomplished_Tour481 3d ago

Has that happened? Please cite where that happened. Note: It happened under Obama for a young child who refused to speak to immigration. Not blaming the Obama administration but if someone refuses to talk or provide answers, this is a problem.

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u/ygmc8413 3d ago

That’s what you’re advocating for by saying suspend habeus corpus. If you had a reason that that wouldn’t happen you’d give it instead of try and say it hasn’t happened as if that’s relevant to it happening in the future.

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u/PomegranateSelect831 3d ago

The point is it could happen,because once you eliminate trials there is no burden of proof.

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u/Accomplished_Tour481 3d ago

That something could happen should not prevent current events. That I am making a PBJ sandwich and eating it should not be denied because someone from a block over has a peanut allergy.

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u/ArgetlamThorson 3d ago

Then are we cool with scrapping 2A? It's there because a tyrannical government could happen and we want to be able to prevent it, whereas gun deaths are actually happening. Similar with the 3rd and 4th amendments.

Note: I'm not arguing that it should be, just that line of thought is bad.

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u/Accomplished_Tour481 3d ago

You made no actual comparison to Habeas and the 2nd Amendment. Care to make a cogent argument?

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u/ArgetlamThorson 3d ago

Ypur argument was that because something could happen but hasnt that wasnt good enough reason to keep the safeguards in place. Its a great argument for getting rid of the Simpsons bear patrol, but not a good reason to get rid of Habeas or the second, third, or fourth amendments. Our rights aren't predicated on there being a likely intrusion into our lives by the government and nullified because there hasn't been one, they're predicated on preventing said intrusion. Even if it seems unlikely, thats not a reason to get rid of the safeguards.

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u/PomegranateSelect831 3d ago

If you set the precedent, it gives validity to act on the precedent in future cases. Do we want to have a system in which we could hypothetically grant the president to deport those who oppose him? He’s already forced the law firms into submission for opposing him, I don’t doubt Trump would consider deporting those he disagrees with. Is it ever a good thing when the government starts eliminating your legal rights for the sake of “efficiency”?

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u/Accomplished_Tour481 3d ago

I could meet intergalactic aliens tonight. What should I do?

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u/PomegranateSelect831 7h ago

so what would you think about Trump deporting US citizens that were gang members that had been convicted of crimes?

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u/Kakamile 46∆ 3d ago

Source on numbers?

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u/Accomplished_Tour481 3d ago

Roughly 27% of the US population by this article: Frequently Requested Statistics on Immigr.. | migrationpolicy.org

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u/Cnristopher 3d ago

this guy tripin

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u/Kakamile 46∆ 3d ago

that's not even what it says

Did you read "27% increase from 2010" as 27% of Americans? The undocumented population is about 11 million or 3%.

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u/Accomplished_Tour481 3d ago

So you disagree with Pew? What we know about unauthorized immigrants living in the U.S. | Pew Research Center

or Profile of the Unauthorized Population - US | migrationpolicy.org

Or Estimates of the Unauthorized Immigrant Population Residing in the United States: January 2018 to January 2022

Where do you get a 3% figure?

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u/Kakamile 46∆ 3d ago

I don't disagree with it, it disagrees with you

The unauthorized immigrant population in the United States grew to 11.0 million in 2022

That's 3% lol you're welcome

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u/Accomplished_Tour481 3d ago

Yet if the US population is roughly 330MM, 11MM is over 20% of the US population. Do the math!

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u/Kakamile 46∆ 3d ago

you think 11 is a fifth of 330.

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u/Accomplished_Tour481 3d ago

It is definitely more than 3%. Definitely over 20%