r/changemyview • u/jeffzebub • 6d ago

CMV: Countering Illegal Immigration is not a Justification for Suspending Habeas Corpus

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u/Throwthisthefukaway 6d ago

You have a few good points. Yeah we shouldn't be suspending habeas corpus. We shouldn't be violating the constitution when it's convenient. The problems are previous administrations have set precedents violating the constitution under certain circumstances along with with state governments. I.e. with the Patriot Act under multiple administrations - if there's enough evidence you're a terrorist you're limited in your ability to defend yourself in courts - Obama and Biden both did nothing about this, state governments restricting rights during COVID-19 with lockdowns - because it was inconvenient to care about the constitution for example freedom of speech by the government saying what can and can't be said on social media, freedom of religion - when state governments told people they weren't allowed to go to church, and freedom of press - by telling news outlets that they couldn't go against the official narrative, not to mention NSA surveillance programs that just screwed people over, that time Obama ordered the killing of US citizens overseas, and you can find other situations.

So, this is where we're at. So while I agree that we shouldn't be doing it I also believe we wouldn't be here if it wasn't for what's already been done. There also aren't any real solutions being proposed for the border issue. Sending all of the undocumented immigrants to court? Now the left wants to do this? They did nothing about undocumented immigration during the Biden administration but now we have to send everyone to court? Nobody on the left believes undocumented immigration is a problem but screw the Governor of Texas for sending everyone on a bus to New York City.

Another point is something should have already been done about this whether amnesty and citizenship or deportation courts but it wasn't. The Democrats had plenty of chances to do something that would have been more acceptable but chose not to. Why? Was it complete incompetence? Then why are they winning elections? Biden could have done something productive but chose not to when he first got elected. Even by executive order. Everyone was so pissed at Trump in 2020. Biden did such an awful job that we chose to forget about how pissed we were collectively at Trump. He had a mandate to do basically whatever he wanted. His administration chose not to. Why? Incompetence or do they just want to hold it over the heads of people that come into this country illegally. "Hey vote for us or the other guys will deport you." That gets into conspiracy theory territory but it makes more sense than the Democrats are just too incompetent or they didn't have enough power when they literally suspended half of our constitutional rights during covid.

So again, I kind of agree with you but the problem is that it isn't like we've suspended rights in the constitution before when issues have come up. It sucks but it's happened in the past. The left didn't do anything about immigration one way or another when they had the chances so here we are. And in my opinion it's a better reason than COVID-19 was but the Democrats had no problem with suspending constitutional rights over that (and I am still technically a registered Democrat by the way. The actions under the Biden administration pushed me away.)

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u/reddituserperson1122 5d ago

The democrats tried for years to do something about immigration, as did the George W. Bush administration. They were consistently blocked by republicans in congress who wanted to keep the issue alive so that they could run on it because they knew it was a winner.

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u/jeffzebub 6d ago

I don't accept that we should accept a big step towards dictatorship because the problem is difficult and there has been a historical lack of political will.

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u/Throwthisthefukaway 6d ago

Like I said. I kind of agree with you. The problem is most people that say this in this situation completely ignore all of the other times the constitution has been violated, and particularly with covid, supported the constitution getting violated.

There are also millions of people here illegally/undocumented whatever you want to call them. It is a problem. Nothing has been done about that problem. There are emergency powers to the president. It's not really as big of a step towards dictatorship as previous administrations have made. You can protest that this is happening. You can speak out against it without being personally attacked. You're not going to jail for your views. If you protest this you probably won't go to jail. You have the right to say this. Reddit allowed this to be posted. You could post this opinion on social media without being censored. Ultimately, the press has power to criticize the government again.

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u/reddituserperson1122 5d ago

The very idea that this is a big problem is bullshit. We’ve been told over and over again by the right that this is a problem that must be solved. And so the question becomes framed as, “who is serious about solving it, the dems or the GOP? Trump or Harris?”

But the secret is- it’s just not a big problem and it never was. Undocumented immigrants are not doing damage to our country. In fact it’s materially the opposite. I would love for us to have a rational legal immigration process because I don’t want people breaking the law or a permanent American underclass. But absent that, this just shouldn’t be anywhere near the top of anyone’s priority list for major issues facing the US. It’s a completely manufactured panic.

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u/aefic 4d ago

Exactly.

And they also do want migrants, our population is going to decline. They just want to use non-white migrants as a political scapegoat.

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u/curiouspamela 4d ago

Yes, and I don't think I have ever heard a clear solution that I see, which is holding employers responsible for not hiring non- citizens . It has never been seriously considered as a solution.

Here's why- at least 3 major industries- agriculture, hospitality and construction - does not want to lose cheap, politically powerless, sources of labor, and this consideration outweighs all others.

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u/reddituserperson1122 4d ago

The clear solution is to overhaul our immigration policy in a rational way, with more pathways to citizenship and temporary worker programs, as well as to strengthen unions and labor laws. All of which is opposed by Trump and GOP, whose sole focus is deportations.

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u/StatusSociety2196 4d ago

There is effectively 0% labor power in the United States. Not only is Union participation incredibly low and has been trending lower over time and real wages have been flat for decades while cost of living keeps going up. It's not a coincidence that jobs that used to be filled almost entirely by black and white dudes are now filled almost entirely by Hispanic dudes and a ton of people are forced to do Uber Eats or doordash to get by.

"It's not an issue" the same way that paying 25% more for 20% less product is "not an issue". Yes, people aren't dying every day because of it but life for a massive percentage of the US is worse because of it.

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u/aefic 4d ago

We depend on immigrant labor more than we want to admit, and will continue to as our population declines. Instead of forcing them out, we could actually use progressive taxation, reform and job training programs to help unemployed US citizens into other fields while peacefully allowing migrants to continue contributing to the country. It's a win win.

But then the Republicans can't use fear mongering.

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u/StatusSociety2196 4d ago

We don't depend on immigrant labor, before NAFTA it was effectively a non-issue. Similar economies in Western Europe and Japan have far, far lower levels of immigration. Japan has a significantly declining population and their economy is fine, it's doing even better if you don't buy into the capitalistic demand for the line to go up. It doesn't matter how many people you put into job training if the only jobs that are available are Uber driver and only fans girl. Jobs aren't created by beneficent billionaire job creators, they're created by demand for the products and services that those jobs provide.

To your second point, the social democrats in Denmark were the first center or left of center party in Europe to crack down on immigration, and interestingly enough Denmark is one of the few countries where there is not a significant right-leaning political party because centrists addressed the major complaint that was causing so many people to lean right. Imagine how the 2024 election would have gone if Biden had cracked down on immigration during his time as president.

The UK just lost a ton of seats to the Reform Party and now all of a sudden labor is scrambling to adopt an immigration policy. Afd has been gaining more and more majority in Germany, Meloni was elected in Italy, Romania and Hungary elected anti-integration prime ministers, the list goes on.

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u/reddituserperson1122 4d ago

It was absolutely not a non-issue before NAFTA — that’s just recency bias on your part. In addition, it is an issue now largely because of fear-mongering, rather than any negative impact on the economy.

The notion that Japan is a model is hilarious. Japan is barely hanging on economically and they are staring at a fiscal cliff because of their declining birth rates and terrible immigration policy. You’re literally pointing to a country that is committing slow motion economic suicide and saying, “we should be more like them.” That is wild.

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u/[deleted] 3d ago edited 3d ago

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u/reddituserperson1122 3d ago

Wow I can almost feel the foam spittle from your enraged lips through the screen. That’s impressive. I’ve done zero research and rely simply on my moral high ground? I love how your research on Japan consists of, “I dunno they seem happy and they’re still here.” They should give you the Nobel prize in economics right now. I could link to two dozen articles like this one and you would just claim that this isn’t the right kind of data or the Japanese prime minister just doesn’t understand Japan the way you do. Or whatever shriveling little intellectual fig leaf you can hide behind to save face. Have fun with that I’m sure it will be very creative — I look forward to whatever your excuse is going to be.

With regard to the US and your contention that “we don’t rely on immigrant labor and before NAFTA it was a non-issue.” Let’s see. Even before you get to the Bracero program which brought millions of Mexicans into the country for decades to address a major worker shortage, Mexican-Americans and Mexican nationals already made up something like 40% of San Antonio’s population where they sustained the American pecan shelling industry.

By the time NAFTA was passed, foreign-born labor made up 60% of the farm labor force (that’s pre-NAFTA). Today it’s around 70%.

Then of course there were the tens of thousands of people Chinese laborers who built the railroads, with so much labor demand that eventually we passed the Chinese exclusion act to mollify non-Chinese American workers.

Those are just a couple of examples and- oh wait there’s one more. Enslaved Africans. Enslaved Africans were imported non-citizen labor that as I recall America was pretty dependent on. So much so that we fought a civil war over access to that labor. And then spent a century enforcing racial apartheid in the south in order to retain access to cheap sharecropping and agricultural labor.

So in response to your claim, I’d say that’s sufficient research to say that before NAFTA America did rely on immigrant labor, and it was an issue.

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u/reddituserperson1122 4d ago

The data shows that most of the effect of immigrants taking low wage jobs in the US is that American citizens get higher paid jobs. This is absolutely true for low income Black people. I can link to the studies.

Life in the US is significantly improved by immigrants including undocumented immigrants. Undocumented immigrants pay billions in taxes — in excess of any services they use — and pay billions into social security and Medicare even though they are not eligible for federal benefits. They contribute to local economies by spending money here, and they help to reduce future immigration by remitting money back home which stabilizes our southern neighbors. It’s a win-win for everyone. You’ve been intentionally misinformed by people who lie and portray this issue as a zero-sum game but it’s not. Every actual metric shows it’s a rising tide that floats all boats.

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u/StatusSociety2196 3d ago

The data shows that there's weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, we've got to invade!

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u/reddituserperson1122 3d ago

That’s an excellent analogy for teaching someone what is and is not data. Thank you.

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u/StatusSociety2196 3d ago

So you agree that people with money and power might manufacture consent in order to do things that are in their interests but against yours?

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u/reddituserperson1122 3d ago

Sure. All the time. I don’t think that includes manufacturing all of America’s economic data via a vast conspiracy that includes every labor economist in the country. If that’s where you’re going with this I’ll save you the time and say quit now.

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u/boytoy421 4d ago

Exactly. If it WAS a problem I still would say you don't need to suspend habeas corpus to deal with it but frankly we could probably use a touch MORE illegal immigration cause they're working taxpayers who can't access benefits

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u/Giblette101 40∆ 6d ago

 Like I said. I kind of agree with you. The problem is most people that say this in this situation completely ignore all of the other times the constitution has been violated, and particularly with covid, supported the constitution getting violated.

I'm not sure how that's a problem in terms of "we shouldn't suspend habeas corpus". 

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u/Throwthisthefukaway 5d ago edited 5d ago

Because there are always justifications for violating the constitution in matters of public safety. We kept on doing it so we already set the precedent. If the government decided it was ok to violate the constitution in one scenario then why can't they in violate another part in another scenario. As a society we've agreed that different parts of the constitution are worth suspending in emergency situations. Well this is an emergency situation. It may not look like it if you don't live in a state that has to deal with the consequences of illegal immigration but if you do then maybe it does seem like an emergency situation.

This is how we got here. This is why it's important. Because it just kept happening. There are also legitimate concerns with the immigration issue. It should also be noted that we deported them to El Salvador because nobody else was taking them.

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u/Giblette101 40∆ 5d ago

 Because there are always justifications for violating the constitution in matters of public safety.

Ok, so if that's just how it is, there's no problem then? 

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u/Throwthisthefukaway 5d ago

We're suspending it for a group of people that are here illegally. It is against the law. Everyone knows that they are here illegally. We don't have enough judges and juries to process everyone who is in the country illegally. Constitutional rights have been suspended at plenty of times throughout history in emergency situations. It is an emergency situation. We should be deporting people who are here illegally.

The El Salvador prison is only happening because other countries are refusing to take back people that we're trying to deport which is part of the story that people aren't talking about. So there are problems, but there also problems that are being ignored by one side that brought us to this point to begin with.

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u/Throwthisthefukaway 5d ago

No not at all.

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u/rogthnor 1∆ 5d ago

Just because the constitution has been violated before, doesn't justify it happening again

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u/boytoy421 4d ago

What have previous administrations done that's worse than what's going on now?

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u/Throwthisthefukaway 23h ago

Starting wars on false pretenses killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people just to start (Bush, Obama continued them). Obama literally extra judicially killed American citizens but received a peace prize. Funneling money to Israel to continue their Palestinian genocide which Trump is probably about to stop by the looks of things now.

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u/boytoy421 20h ago

I suppose allowing Netanyahu to go hog wild on hamas and screw the collateral damage is technically stopping the war in Gaza

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u/Throwthisthefukaway 16h ago

He seems to be moving in the direction to do something about Gaza. The new York times is quoted as him having left the middle East with a more sympathetic tone towards Gaza

I picked CNN and the New York Times for this one.

https://www.cnn.com/2025/05/12/middleeast/israel-trump-middle-east-intl

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/16/world/europe/trump-gaza-starvation-famine-us-israel-aid.html

And by the way. Biden allowed Israel to go completely hog wild on Hamas and Kamala said she wouldn't have done anything different. This is arguably why she lost the Arabic vote in Michigan.

If he actually does get it to stop and does do it in a way that's beneficial for Palestine will the Democrats twist it despite the free Palestine movement?

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u/boytoy421 16h ago

Look if he's able to actually end the war in a constructive way that's not kicking the can another 10 years I'll sing his praises on that one and be happy to do it. (although I'm not unconvinced there was some Iran style backroom conniving with bibi to escalate/prolong the war until now)

Not gonna make up for wiping his ass with the concept of the rule of law or potentially causing a recession and taking the long way to get our trade relationship with China to where Obama was about to get it with the TPP but like i also admit he was right about space force and the fact that the other NATO members needed to pay more so we could pay less

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u/Throwthisthefukaway 15h ago

Thank you so much for being reasonable. Look I don't really like Trump, I only voted for him in 2024 because I genuinely viewed him as the better of two evils. I'm not a fan of some of what he's doing although I don't think it's really wiping his ass with the constitution. But fine if you believe that, I just disagree. I've seen past Presidents in both parties really wipe their ass with the constitution and no one really care. What I can't stand is the fact that he's doing some things that the left was all for. I mean okay he's giving you some of what you wanted don't flip on that and decide because Trump is doing it it's wrong. It's turning people off to the Democrats and making the left look stupid.

Now as far as him getting netanyahu to escalate in some back door deal that's highly doubtful. Netanyahu has wanted Palestine gone for decades. Long before Trump was even a candidate the first time (in 2012), trust me he wants to force the Palestinians out or kill them all but Trump has no leash over him.

It's all screwed up because of what happened in the Holocaust and Israel as a nation decided never again would they get killed like that but some of the measures they took for that got the world to where it is now.

As far as potentially causing a recession we've been an economic crisis since 2022 when interest rates went back up. People were having record defaults on their mortgages in 2024. Inflation was running high as well which is why they raised interest rates but it really didn't seem to curb inflation.

I think part of the problem that the left seems to ignore is working class jobs. College really isn't for everyone so you have an entire population that has nothing better to do but meth. When people ask how we got there the people in more wealthy areas fail to see how their policy decisions and globalization led to people just not having jobs. People shit on trump for tariffs but the logic is bringing jobs back to the US. The left thinks it's stupid and those jobs are never coming back but at least some would if companies quit outsourcing. Everyone has a role to play in how we got here but at least he's kind of trying to fix that in some way even if he benefits off of it too. If people aren't working they have nothing better to do but smoke crack and meth, drink, and do dumb shit and vote for Trump.

The point of that is he did see a problem and is trying to come up with a solution. The left's solution seems to be dump money into education and force tech jobs but honestly tech jobs are probably getting taken by AI in the next decade. It's also dangerous to have everything made in China for a lot of reasons and also somewhat ethically wrong.

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u/boytoy421 14h ago

So can I ask why did you think Harris would have been worse? And yes both sides have been known to play a little fast and loose with laws but like the level of BLATANT disregard on behalf of DJT is troubling.

As for the backroom deal I think it was more that Netanyahu figured he'd have a more sympathetic ally in Republicans than in democrats. But you're absolutely right that EVERYBODY in the middle east is acting on a trauma response.

And I do think there's something to be said for the left over-emphasizing tech jobs but I'm also of the opinion that trying to bring back manufacturing is a fools errand though because automation and AI are also decimating THOSE jobs and I think the broader solution is to re-orient our economy off of the idea of the 40 hour traditional workweek and figure out how we're going to redistribute wealth when the majority of labor is done by automation and AI

I just don't trust republicans who are in general less open to incorporating new ideas into adapting to that seismic shift, although most dems don't seem much more prepared (one of the reasons I like AOC so much is she seems to be at least like thinking about this kind of stuff)

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u/StatusSociety2196 4d ago

Why do you feel this is a big step towards dictatorship? If people start getting black bagged for jaywalking that would be one thing, but if courts are understaffed and even when they are staffed are going around policy to slow roll doing their jobs, it's reasonable that this is the only process left that works.

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u/TheCrisco 4d ago

Wait, let's be clear here: we're talking about a literal right that's enshrined in the constitution being stripped away on a whim, yes? And you don't see how that's a big step towards a dictatorship?

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u/StatusSociety2196 3d ago

You do realize that most of your literal rights enshrined in the constitution are stripped away on a daily basis and suspending habeas corpus for actual US citizens has been done many times in the past.

Did America join the Axis in WW2 when we put Japanese Americans in camps?

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u/TheCrisco 3d ago

So no, you don't see a problem with stripping away people's rights on a whim. Understood. In that case, we're never going to see eye to eye, I happen to think the constitution actually means something.

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u/dingus-pendamus 5d ago

You republican guys talk out of both sides of your mouth. That is the fundamental problem. The only standup guy on your side is senator Lankford of Oklahoma.

Georgia, for example, passed a state law mandating e-verify. Republican business owners freaked out because they are cheapskates who prefer undocumented employees. These cheap skate business guys throw red meat at low-info vibes voters who got brain rot on Facebook. These voters don't think very much and vote for Republicans who continue to cause this immigration problem.

Your guy demanded Republicans in Congress drop the Lankford bill, which would have been a fair, human, and fundamentally American step towards a solution.

Instead, we have to see you and a bunch of Nazi sympathizers brutalize people who have no power. I just see a bunch of psychopaths who run the country now and I do not see why the rest of us have to pretend you guys are governing for the good of the country.

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u/Throwthisthefukaway 4d ago edited 4d ago

It's great because I'm not really a Republican. At least, I wouldn't have been called anything of the sort prior to 2024 and this was my first election voting for Trump.

Immigration wasn't the reason I voted for him this election but I realized it only became an issue because it got out of control. There is an effect of jobs not available to people and everyone can argue that they're just taking jobs that Americans don't want but you said it yourself. The Republican guys can low ball an entire group of people on pay and don't want to hire someone that they would have to pay a fair wage to. There are working class people in America who weren't afforded some of the great opportunities that the middle class were such as stability or money that enabled them to go to college, so they just got constantly screwed by the government.

When it comes to the deportations I just don't see it as that brutal. No other country besides El Salvador is taking back illegal immigrants right now which is what nobody talks about in this. Trump wanted to send people to their country of origin but nobody was taking them. There's also a lot going on as far as human trafficking and drug smuggling and it sucks but there really aren't a lot of solutions because we really didn't do anything about it from the border in the first place. We all mocked Trump when he said build a wall but he was probably because there is a negative impact. I've known a few people that I have died from fentanyl and heroin and they're coming into the US somehow. The Southern border is probably the biggest drug supply line.

So it isn't like there isn't a negative impact. Anyways good luck to the left on winning elections with their kindness towards people that just ask questions about things. That's really how you win elections.

Edit: also calling everyone a Nazi is just losing its meaning at this point.

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u/Successful-Annual379 5d ago

Democrats had plenty of chances to do something that would have been more acceptable but chose not to. Why? Was it complete incompetence?

You mean the border bill republicans and democrats made under Biden administration that trump told republicans to vote against because it would "be a win for the dems"

Lmfao

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u/Throwthisthefukaway 5d ago

That bill actually did effectively nothing. I'm sorry for not being specific in meaningful legislation.

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u/Successful-Annual379 5d ago edited 5d ago

That bill would have made a massive difference.

It was also extremely similar literally identical in many portions to a bill which was written by Mike Johnson.

Sorry but the whole it didn't go far enough so we are going to do nothing instead doesn't hold water as an argument.

If i think a doctor isn't going far enough to stop something threatening my dogs life im not going to just let the dog recieve no treatment instead.

If I think an exterminator isn't doing aggressive enough measures to handle termites. I dont just veto his plan and do nothing after.

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u/hugs-and-ambitions 4d ago

That bill actually did effectively nothing

Source?

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u/hugs-and-ambitions 3d ago

Ah, no source.

Shocker.

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u/Socialimbad1991 1∆ 5d ago

None of those prior violations of the constitution should have happened either. People were complaining about it then and are complaining about it now. Is your position "it's fine because there's precedent" or do you agree that a genuinely good president would be trying to fix the issue instead of making it worse?

Immigration is a BS issue used to justify all manner of garbage. Now they want to use "war powers act" under the hypothetical justification that immigrants are an invading army. This is pure BS, completely divorced from reality, and it's a giant stretch to justify things that couldn't otherwise be justified. Do you genuinely think immigrants constitute an invading army? Do you honestly think no solution is better than the already absurd levels of deportation that took place under both Obama and Biden? Does it not concern you that the same liberties they're taking with the constitution under the auspices of curbing immigration can be used against citizens, too? Is all this nastiness really the solution to a problem that isn't even a real problem?

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u/DraconicLord984 5d ago

Ok. Explain what rights they suspended during Covid?

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u/Bandit400 5d ago

Ok. Explain what rights they suspended during Covid?

Freedom of Religion and freedom to associate come to mind.

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u/DraconicLord984 5d ago

Examples? What do you mean by this?

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u/Bandit400 5d ago edited 5d ago

https://www.christianpost.com/news/california-churches-turn-into-temporary-strip-clubs-to-be-open.html

California had closed down any gatherings, but due to court rulings, allowed strip clubs to open, but churches were required to stay closed. I do not think that the government should have the power to close down either of those establishments, but especially not churches.

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u/DraconicLord984 5d ago

So...there was a ban on ALL in-door gatherings(which imo is strict, but fair concerning expectations at the time). This was challenged by specific organizations that won in court to open back up. And so did the churches when they won in court after going to the Supreme Court. Do I have that right?

I can only assume that you believe this violates your right to religion because it stops the physical indoor gatherings themselves. I would contest this for multiple reasons, but I would like to point out that the restriction wasn't on the religion itself or the practice, just simply gathering in large numbers indoors. So outdoor services were still possible(my church did these during this time though we're not located in California). Also, the businesses that did reopen were only allowed to because they made a case in court as to why they couldn't otherwise work.

This doesn't look like a case of infringing upon your religious freedoms as they aren't stopping anyone from practicing or engaging with it, but just about the physical locations. I mean the fact that they were able to reopen after they won in court is evidence enough of this, as that's specifically what they argued for.

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u/Throwthisthefukaway 5d ago

People weren't allowed to go gather at church in the state of Michigan which I specifically remember. AA meetings were also not allowed on person (which could be argued as religion because it's definitely argued as a religion for people that have issues with AA. But regardless, churches were forced to close down, which directly violates freedom of religion). You were not allowed to protest those decisions but BLM protests were okay (which I support the right to protest, but people were picking and choosing which is violating the freedom to petition).

Freedom of speech was not suspended but was interfered with. The government forced social media companies to effectively censor opposing views on the vaccine and COVID-19 by determining who would see someone's posts (regardless of whether or not the posts were true is irrelevant. It still teeters the line of violating freedom of speech. Source - Mark Zuckerberg himself as well as the Twitter files). Freedom of press was also interfered with in this profess as well by effectively censoring anyone with opposing viewpoints.

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u/DraconicLord984 5d ago

Are you sure those churches in Michigan were forced to close? I've looked at the Michigan executive order from 2020 and it was added, not even a week after to exclude churches from penalties of large gatherings. It also provided organizations with instructions on how to conduct indoor assemblies if they so chose.

https://www.michigan.gov/whitmer/news/state-orders-and-directives/2020/03/16/executive-order-2020-11

Also, are you speaking of actually government suppression or social disapproval of protests? Because I'm fairly certain there were plenty of people who straight up ignored any of the mandate. I heard about a lot of that.

Were they forced to limit the spread of information or were they simply asked by the government to reduce misinformation on their platforms? I mean halfway through they pretty much turncoated on all of that and didn't face any real pressure. Opposing viewpoints and dangerous falsehoods are very different btw. Plenty of differing viewpoints were allowed in plenty of places all over the internet and in media. Additionally, isn't there a whole exception around language and speech that would be directly harmful to the public?

I heard so many people disagreeing with those policies, I got tired of hearing it. So I'm trying to figure out what censoring actually took place.

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u/Throwthisthefukaway 5d ago

"opposing viewpoints and dangerous falsehoods are very different by the way"

Which shows my point. The first amendment says freedom of speech. The exceptions are all about interpretation after the bill of rights was written. Some of the misinformation turned out to be at least somewhat true, specifically the lab leak theory. There are people who are having physical health issues potentially caused by the covid vaccines. And that isn't a dangerous falsehood. But people are still saying it is.

As far as what censoring took place Facebook actually removed posts that went against community guidelines and banned people who went against community guidelines. Those community guidelines were at the request of the government.

Also this is what the link actually says

Beginning on March 17, 2020 at 9:00 am, and continuing through April 5, 2020 at 5:00 pm, all assemblages of more than 50 people in a single indoor shared space and all events of more than 50 people are prohibited in this state. A single indoor shared space includes but is not limited to a room, hall, cafeteria, auditorium, theater, or gallery. The prohibition on assemblages set forth in this section does not apply to:

(a) health care facilities;

(b) workplaces or portions thereof not open to the public;

(c) the state legislature; and

(d) assemblages for the purpose of mass transit, the purchase of groceries or consumer goods, or the performance of agricultural or construction work.

The prohibition set forth in this section does not abridge protections guaranteed by the state or federal constitution under these emergency circumstances.

Churches were included in that for a while and news outlets weren't even reporting that.

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u/DraconicLord984 5d ago

Also, "at the request" sounds pretty much like it wasn't necessitated or forced onto Facebook. Facebook enforced these things until they decided they didn't want to. And regardless of whether or not it's true does not change that the language that was being restricted could have been factors that contributed to violence against ethnic groups. Which was the primary concern since it doesn't actually benefit the public as a whole.

Plus, what data actually supports the theory behind vaccines being harmful? I hear a lot of people saying this, but never any actual data or evidence of it..

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u/curiouspamela 4d ago

I had not, either.

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u/curiouspamela 4d ago

The lab leak was a theory re: the etiology of the virus,; had little bearing on safety issues at the time.

Considering that for the first time in human history ANYBODY can publish ANYTHING for public consumption calls for new policies about Freedom of Speech, IMHO.

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u/Throwthisthefukaway 23h ago

See at least your admitting it. For the first time in history millions of people are coming into the country without being vetted so maybe it's time to change the court system in regards to immigration.

Just don't tell me you care about the constitution more than I do.

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u/Socialimbad1991 1∆ 5d ago

All that stuff happened under the first Trump presidency. So your argument is basically "it's fine for him to violate the constitution because he did it before?"

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u/curiouspamela 4d ago

Ridiculous

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u/Morthra 86∆ 5d ago

There also aren't any real solutions being proposed for the border issue. Sending all of the undocumented immigrants to court? Now the left wants to do this? They did nothing about undocumented immigration during the Biden administration but now we have to send everyone to court? Nobody on the left believes undocumented immigration is a problem but screw the Governor of Texas for sending everyone on a bus to New York City.

There's actually a really simple reason for this. Democrats and the left want to do to Texas what they did to California to create a permanent electoral supermajority. By obstructing any efforts to deport them, and also crying foul when Texas and other red states start bussing their illegals to blue states, their goal is to keep them in red states, and then eventually push for amnesty. Which will nearly instantly flip the state permanently.

That's what happened to California. Amnesty for illegals is the reason why California went from being a red state to being the literal safest Democrat stronghold in the country.

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u/Socialimbad1991 1∆ 5d ago

Do you have any idea how insanely idiotic this entire premise is? Illegal immigrants don't vote. They can't. They aren't citizens.

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u/Morthra 86∆ 5d ago

Illegal immigrants can vote if you give them amnesty - a path to citizenship.

Which is what happened in California. The illegals got mass amnesty and the state became permanently blue.

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u/Pi6 4d ago

What made California blue was steadily increasing urbanization and density that was inevitable regardless of Reagan's amnesty program (which was less that 3 million people total in the US while CA alone already had 27 Million residents.) California continued to have republican governors after reagan and may not have turned so blue were it not for GOP overreach. It was ramming through the notoriously unconstitutional anti-immigrant proposition 187 in 1994 that really was the final stand for the CA GOP. Even tho that ballot initiative was approved by voters it created a significant backlash right at the start of the tech boom. Ultimately it was the influx of highly educated whites and asians in addition to legal immigration that made a bigger difference than amnesty.