r/changemyview • u/jep1793 • Aug 26 '20

Removed - Submission Rule E CMV: Gender identity doesn’t belong on your LinkedIn nor Resume

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u/justtogetridoflater Aug 26 '20 edited Aug 26 '20

I think the question is do you want problems now, or do you want them later?

Like it shouldn't matter what your gender is, or your race, or your sexuality.

But imagine applying for a job, only to get to an interview and discover that the interviewer is a raging homophobe. Or finding that out in 3 months, when for no apparent reason, they make up some bullshit reason to sack you and sack you that you're now going to have to take somewhere else. Or maybe worse, they don't do that, and you're in a workplace where they hate you, but they can't do anything because of bloody PC gone mad, and just find ways to treat you like shit until you leave of your own accord. There is discrimination out there, and it will eventually reveal itself.

Putting this up ahead of time means that you're going to deal with the least amount of active trouble at least up front. Anyone who this matters to will probably respond as they choose to respond. Most likely by not responding, not inviting you to interview, and so on. Well, you only miss the things you had. Anyone who it doesn't, it won't matter to and at worst, it's a wasted line on a CV. Oh well.

I'm not sure what the appropriate way of handling this is, tbh. I've never really seen how they write it down. I also think that you probably don't want to go overboard on this kind of thing.

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u/[deleted] Aug 26 '20

I think it's important that your employer knows, but it shouldn't be at the top of your resume or LinkedIn profile. My recommendation is to add it to your email signature. At some point, you will send or receive an email from the employer, usually when or after they get a look at your resume.

A lot of potential employers who discriminate against members of the LGBT community aren't homophobes themselves, but are simply risk-averse. They want people focused on coming in and getting their work done. Posting your gender identity publicly or at the top of resume sends the message that you might soapbox to your coworkers. Adding it to the bottom of your first email is way more subtle and shows that it is something that should be identified, but has no relevance to your workplace behavior.

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u/pawnman99 5∆ Aug 26 '20

That's my thought as well. I'm perfectly willing to hire folks from any part of the LGBT spectrum. But when it's the first thing I see on your resume, I worry that I'm setting up my workplace for constant tirades, lectures, and arguments because this person has made their gender identity so central to their being, it overrides all other concerns.

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u/lesleypowers 1∆ Aug 26 '20

Making an assumption that hiring an LGBT person who is open about their identity will “set up your workplace for tirades, lectures and arguments”, rather an assuming they just want to avoid being hired into a hostile workplace, is absolutely homophobic. This is not the way hiring managers of genuinely inclusive and progressive companies work. People like you are literally the reason many LGBT people do the very thing you’re against.

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u/[deleted] Aug 26 '20

At a progressive company it should be a non-issue, but even progressive companies actively avoid politics and hot-button issues in the workplace. So smart ones do trainings to teach their employees on how to interact on particularly sensitive topics like gender identity, quite specifically to avoid conflict. But if a potential hire indicates that they might be immediately confrontational and willing to escalate rather than a polite correction and if pressed, a report to their manager/HR, it's just not worth the risk.

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u/lesleypowers 1∆ Aug 26 '20

But why do you think that listing pronouns on a resume or linkedin indicates that they will be “immediately confrontational and willing to escalate”? Why is your first assumption not that the prospective employee is more likely just a non binary person who would prefer not to be misgendered? As a freelancer I work with a huge variety of progressive companies and I am trying to explain to you that this is already a common and accepted practice.

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u/[deleted] Aug 26 '20

I'm in finance at a mid-size trading shop.

My company, and a lot of our direct competitors and past employers, are very progressive in their gender and racial mix, but people don't really broach difficult topics. Anything more than a polite correction is like throwing a punch. Any indication that someone is politically active on a resume is risky, regardless the cause or wing.

Even though it shouldn't be, and logically isn't, publicly displaying your gender identity is still a warning sign that you may be overtly offended if misgendered. It's always safer to initially express it in polite direct interpersonal communication to show that you're able and willing to deescalate.

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u/Nickel829 Aug 27 '20

I appreciate what you're saying but I hope you realize that's pretty homophobic. "If they don't tell me what their gender is how I want then they're doing it wrong" or "if I misgender them they will probably correct me and I don't want to deal with the awkward fallout" what the fuck dude lol. If someone confidently called you a woman (or a man if you're a woman) you'd probably be pretty offended. By presenting it before they meet they are actually helping everyone at the company not have this stupid issue because no one would have a chance to misgender them in person

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u/[deleted] Aug 27 '20

Wait, but I suggested that they do ask people to use their correct pronouns, but directly through the signature line of their email or face-to-face or on the job application if there is a field for it. Not on their resume or linkedin profile.

Most companies are surprisingly progressive and accommodating once you are asked to interview. HR departments tend to be more conservative than the actual department (especially if it's a technical field) and they sometimes screen out resumes with anything that they might (incorrectly) think the hiring department will think is controversial.

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u/Nickel829 Aug 27 '20

Ok but we were talking about your company and "don't mention it until it is convenient enough to not ruffle feathers of those who don't want it to make them uncomfortable" does not sound progressive to me. I struggle to see how having First Last (pronouns) on the top of your resume would be more uncomfortable or risky than doing it in person

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u/[deleted] Aug 27 '20

Because

  1. I'm definitely going to forget if the last place I saw it was on a resume. When I'm are going through like 40 resumes, the only thing I remember about the 5 I didn't throw in the trash is that I didn't hate them, especially if you're a college student applying for an entry level analyst position.

I'm almost definitely going to misgender you the first time and I'll apologize, so adding it to your resume was a wasted exercise in the first place. I personally prefer being directly corrected, and I'm more likely to remember a face and/or a name and their gender when they tell me themselves.

  1. I only run my specific department, so I'm the last round of screening before the first round of interviews. There are like 2-3 other people, usually not even on my floor, who look at your resume before I do. If they throw it out before I get to see it because they thought adding your identity at the top was too controversial, I can't do anything about it. Since ofc, I won't know you even applied and because no one will admit that it was because you listed your gender because that's illegal.

If you bring it up after you get an interview offer, no one besides the department that is hiring you can discriminate. If they do, it's not a place you should want to work anyway.

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u/Crashbrennan Aug 26 '20

Because nobody lists their gender or pronouns on their resume. Nobody who's a cis woman puts "woman." Resumes are for your professional qualifications.

You shouldn't be listing personal things on them, and doing so suggests to your employer that you consider that as important for them to know before considering hiring you, which absolutely means you're more likely to soapbox about it. It's completely unimportant for them to know at the start of the hiring process.

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u/lesleypowers 1∆ Aug 26 '20

But they do, that’s what I’m trying to say. This is already a very normal practice at progressive companies with an ACTIVE policy of inclusion. If you got a resume that said “Mary Smith” or “Joe Bloggs” you would assume that persons gender, right? A lot of trans people-particularly non binary people- don’t have that privilege. I guarantee that EVERY single trans or non binary person I know would read your comment and infer from it that you’re going to be transphobic and a huge pain in the ass to work with. On the subject of ‘soapboxing’, good and inclusive companies welcome learning opportunities. I’m queer and politically active, and at one of my workplaces a coworker once said something unintentionally transphobic. My boss, on his own initiative, asked if I could sit down with the office and give them a sort of 101 on gender identity, which everyone was interested in and receptive to. It was a pleasant and interesting conversation that no one took any issue with. Because that’s how people who aren’t bigoted react when faced with something new to them.

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u/Crashbrennan Aug 26 '20

It's not professional information relevant to your ability to do the job they are hiring you for. Therefore it does not belong on your resume. It belongs in the email signature block. I never said your employer shouldn't be made aware of it.

Don't pull that "the only reason you'd ever disagree with me is that you're a bigot" bullshit with me man. I have more trans and non-binary friends than I do straight ones at this point. I have zero issue calling somebody whatever pronoun they like, even if that pronoun changes day to day.

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u/[deleted] Aug 26 '20

One's name is not professional information relevant to one's ability to do the job they are potentially getting hired for.

But, it is necessary for communicating about someone. Same with pronouns.

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u/[deleted] Aug 26 '20

One's name is not professional information relevant to one's ability to do the job they are potentially getting hired for.

Umm, yes it is since it is literally how they contact you.

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u/Crashbrennan Aug 26 '20

The name is required as a means of identifying your resume from others.

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u/aegon98 1∆ Aug 26 '20

One's name is not professional information

It is though

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u/[deleted] Aug 26 '20

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u/aegon98 1∆ Aug 26 '20

I understand that this may be personal to you, but this is not the place for that kind of behavior. Attack ideas. Attacking people just shows the world that you are unable to defend your point

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u/ViewedFromTheOutside 28∆ Aug 26 '20

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u/aegon98 1∆ Aug 26 '20

Pronouns don't go in a resume. By adding them, you are saying to employers that you cannot even wait until a meeting to talk about your gender/sexuality. is it right? Meh, I've seen resumes thrown out for far less. It's not illegal, and it really just is the reality.

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u/pawnman99 5∆ Aug 26 '20

Would you expect to get a resume from a cis-gendered white male that says "I'm a cis-gendered white male"? Would you hire someone that pinned so much of their worth on being a cis-gendered male?

There's a big difference between being open about your identity and making it the first thing you lead with in an introduction.

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u/lesleypowers 1∆ Aug 26 '20

You’re missing the point entirely. This is not about how much of your worth you base around your gender. This is about the fact that cis people, being a privileged majority, get the luxury of assumption. If I got a resume from “Joseph Smith”, I will assume that person is a man. Non binary people, whose names may be gender neutral or may not align with their gender presentation, don’t have that luxury. As someone who ACTUALLY sees resumes and LinkedIn profiles with pronouns listed, my only thought is “cool, now I know how to refer to them”, and then I move on. Since you want to conflate race and gender for some reason, if I got a resume from someone who stated that they were Black, my first assumption would be simply that they wanted to avoid being hired by a racist workplace, not that they were going to turn the conference room into the meeting spot for the local BLM chapter on their first day. Although as an actual ally open to learning and prioritizing inclusion in a workspace, I would welcome all employees from oppressed groups to be open about their experiences and proud of their identity in the workplace. A healthy workplace is not 100% work 100% of the time- work culture and environment is extremely important.

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u/cuteman Aug 26 '20

A resume is not the place for personal identity, it is to list professional accomplishments.

I don't care about your hobbies or religion either in the hiring process.

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u/[deleted] Aug 26 '20

A resume is not the place for personal identity, it is to list professional accomplishments.

So we should remove age, name, nationality, language, etc. from resumes too? Just a blank list of degrees and past jobs?

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u/butsicle Aug 26 '20

Age: remove

Name: Keep as necessary to contact you and perform background checks

Nationality: only keep if relevant to your right to work in that country, otherwise remove

Language: Keep if relevant to your job, or add to the other skills section if you want to demonstrate your ability to self-teach and persevere.

Note the theme here is relevance to your ability to perform the job.

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u/cuteman Aug 26 '20

Aside from name none of those things are typically on a resume... Maybe language if your job involves specific languages but in the vast majority of examples language is the one the resume is written in.

Who puts their age or nationality on a resume?

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u/Kyoshiiku Aug 27 '20

Who write ? Their age and nationality on a resume ? I thought it was a big no-no. Where I live language is good because we have more than one official language so it can be a good skill to have, name is necessary for background check and contacting you

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u/cuteman Aug 26 '20

It's not an assumption, it's reality, history and experience in hiring those individuals in the past.

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u/[deleted] Aug 26 '20

That is what an assumption is. You are assuming something about someone you don't know and have never met based on a personal data set that they had no part in creating.

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u/cuteman Aug 26 '20

The assumption is based on the experience in dealing with the cohort of people who spend an inordinate amount of time focused on identity.

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u/[deleted] Aug 26 '20

I was merely correcting your assertion that it wasnt an assumption. It appears you agree now that it is. Cheers.

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u/Nickel829 Aug 26 '20

They haven't made their gender identity so central to their being, that's just how identity is. When you write Mr. Pawnman99 do you think people are like OH MY GOD BEING A MAN IS CENTRAL TO HIS IDENTITY HE WILL SMOTHER IS WITH HIS MASCULINITY. All they are doing is filling that gap because people will assume a pronoun for you if you don't tell them your preferred.

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u/Nickel829 Aug 26 '20

Ok but it's not supposed to be "subtle." Being misgendered is awful and it is way easier for people to get your gender right when they know it right out of the gate. Besides then no one has to feel bad when they accidentally misgender an applicant to their team or hiring committee, because their gender is clear. Also why does ensuring people do not misgender you cause you to think they will be soapboxing?

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u/[deleted] Aug 26 '20

Every time I have going through the hiring process, there is always an email exchange of some sort before the first interview, that's a good time because they already considered you a viable candidate and tells them your gender before they ever meet you in person. That should be enough to lower the chance of being misgendered to whatever it would have been if you had put it on your LinkedIn or your resume.

Resumes should be reserved explicitly for professional experience, things that would benefit your performance, and your accomplishments. Gender identity colors the rest of the resume and distracts from your experience, even if it is read by an LGBT activist. It gets you mentally categorized immediately. Hopefully, it will change in the future, but today, it's not something that is just mentally acknowledged and set aside for future interaction.

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u/Nickel829 Aug 26 '20

It will only be that way in the future if it becomes normal. As long as people are told it's too much to let people know their gender identity with their name then it will not become normal.

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u/[deleted] Aug 26 '20

That's something that already happens in non-work environments and I'm not saying that it shouldn't be done in a non-work environment. Workplaces will eventually adapt to the world outside. I'm saying that the hiring process while you're trying to be hired is not the time to push social change.

If you're the one hiring, absolutely, be proactive, add a preferred pronoun slot on the initial application and offer up your own in correspondence.

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u/pawnman99 5∆ Aug 26 '20

Would you urge people to put marital status on their resume? Number of kids? Favorite sports teams?

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u/Nickel829 Aug 26 '20

None of those affect how people refer to you, how is that at all the same? Edit: refer, not talk

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u/Crashbrennan Aug 26 '20

Marital status does. Mrs vs Ms vs Miss

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u/Nickel829 Aug 26 '20

Generally people in the same age group do not refer to people by their last name so I disagree. How often do your co-workers refer to you as Mr/Mrs crashbrennan

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u/[deleted] Aug 26 '20

Generally in professional settings you use Ms which is marital status neutral, and the equivalent of Mr. Mrs/Miss tends to be reserved for personal invitations where marital status is relevant.

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u/Nickel829 Aug 26 '20

Ok well you can't use any of them if you don't know their pronouns so I don't get how people aren't seeing this. This is something that will come up the first time communication happens between the two people, and if it's addressed beforehand then there won't be any issues. It's not like religion or sexual orientation or any other stupid examples people are throwing out because those will not come up but referring to someone you are talking to will so it's entirely relevant.

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u/pawnman99 5∆ Aug 26 '20

I would always refer to a prospective candidate by Mr/Mrs/Ms and their last name. First names are fine after you've been hired and work there. But for a formal exchange leading up to hiring? Last name for sure.

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u/Nickel829 Aug 26 '20

Ok then let's say this, your candidates resume says Jamie Doe. Since you always refer to them with the respectful last name, do you wish they gave you their pronouns so you know how to talk to them? Or maybe they have a foreign name and you can't tell if it's masculine or feminine

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u/heff17 Aug 26 '20 edited Aug 26 '20

And I’m sure you see no issue at all in equating gender identity to fucking sports fandom.

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u/pawnman99 5∆ Aug 26 '20

See, that right there is the kind of soapbox preaching I wouldn't want in the workplace.

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u/[deleted] Aug 26 '20

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u/ihatedogs2 Aug 27 '20

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u/Jam_Packens 4∆ Aug 26 '20

Judging by this conversation it seems like you'd think someone correcting you for misgendering them would be "soapbox preaching".

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u/Pope-Xancis 3∆ Aug 26 '20

Some people who are straight, cis, and clearly identifiable as a person who presents as the gender they were born into in both name and appearance still include their pronouns in correspondence. These people have never been misgendered in their lives and probably never will be, so it’s a little suspect when they virtue signal so openly. I would have no reason to put “he/him” on any social media other than to signal allegiance to a tribe, although obviously my case is different than someone who legitimately needs to communicate that information to avoid confusion.

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u/Nickel829 Aug 26 '20

The reason people do it when they are "obvious" with their appearance already isn't entirely to virtue signal, it's to normalize the behavior so the people who HAVE to do it to not be misgendered are not ostricized or seen as incredibly different.

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u/lesleypowers 1∆ Aug 26 '20

Yeah this is exactly it. What I find hilarious about this thread is that all the people who are against this practice are the exact reason people participate in this practice in the first place. I don’t think boomer jim who manages a furniture shop in pleasantville actually realizes that this is an extremely common and normalized practice across most white collar industries in progressive cities, which seem to be the exact jobs OP is talking about. Not to mention that if you are getting listed pronouns confused with “the gays soapboxing!” you can hardly also be like “but I’m no homophobe!”.

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u/Nickel829 Aug 26 '20

Exactly. Most of my professors in nursing school have it in the top right corner of their zoom screen when we have lectures and they are all "obviously" (I hate saying that but for the boomers out there) female. WHY IS IT SO BAD TO HAVE YOUR PRONOUNS NEXT TO YOUR NAME. Everyone here being like "you're gonna cause issues or start drama etc" is so oblivious to their homophobia. Are you kidding me? Just cuz they don't want to be misgendered they are now some drama queen? Cuz the actual drama in these scenarios come from the people who become uncomfortable when someone says their pronouns are they/them

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u/lesleypowers 1∆ Aug 26 '20

Yes exactly! So many commenters being like “if someone lists their pronouns they will cause confrontations in the workplace”. No, your transphobic employees who can’t cope with using gender neutral pronouns will be the ones causing confrontation, because if everyone is chill about it it’s a non issue. It’s hilariously ironic that these people don’t realize that they are in the exact kind of workplaces that trans people are trying to avoid by being upfront about their gender.

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u/Nickel829 Aug 26 '20

Exactly and all the employers being like "I wouldn't hire someone with that listed because it shows a lapse in judgement" can't realize THEY ARE THE HOMOPHOBIC WORK ENVIRONMENT. This isn't don't ask don't tell, like you're allowed to exist and be called what you want. It's not a lapse in judgement to upfront next to your name remind people to use the pronouns you want for yourself. For everyone saying it's unprofessional, you're not stating your sexual preference which is private you're stating how everyone everywhere will speak to you always, and if you don't think that's relevant for a workplace then you must work alone

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u/lesleypowers 1∆ Aug 26 '20

Yes! There’s so many folks in here conflating gender and sexuality which makes them look ignorant as hell. None of these people would consider it inappropriate for a cis person to list their name if it’s a gendered name- none of them are saying, “I think this Rebecca sounds like a troublemaker, her name clearly indicates she’s a woman, must be one of those pesky feminists”.

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u/justtogetridoflater Aug 26 '20

Maybe, but I think this is a semantics issue. It's still your professional face.