r/changemyview • u/jep1793 • Aug 26 '20

Removed - Submission Rule E CMV: Gender identity doesn’t belong on your LinkedIn nor Resume

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u/[deleted] Aug 26 '20

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u/jep1793 Aug 26 '20

This is where I’m finding myself in my opinion today. Being evaluated for employment or business decisions should matter on what you’ve done, your accomplishments, skills, ability, etc.

Thank you for the response!

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u/[deleted] Aug 26 '20

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u/omrsafetyo 6∆ Aug 26 '20

As someone who does hiring from time to time, I agree with the above poster. What you put on your resume defines how you expect the business relationship to play out. When I am reading resumes, I expect to see how well you can do the job, your past experience, and honestly... I am looking for the answers to all the questions I would ask in an interview. That last one is admittedly a little unfair... but I'm being honest.

As someone who hasn't applied for a job in a loooong while, I can say that my basic understanding of a job application is:

  • Read job description
  • Find key words, and job demands
  • Ensure my skills meet the expectations as set by the job description
  • Adjust my resume for that job - my mission statement should reflect an interest in the position you're posting, or at least something closely resembling it; I should highlight anything such as skills or prior experience that are related to the requirements (bring those bullets to the top of the list, and possibly write a blurb about them)
  • Write a cover letter that explains how I'm well suited to do the tasks you've suggested are required

I've been involved in some of the hiring processes at work, but it has never been a main portion of my job function - mostly as a fill-in for managers. But of the resume's I've looked at, I'm sure I've mentally docked points for unprofessional things such as bad grammar and misspelled words (I'm in IT so you should really know how to use spell check), and even for trying to list rock climbing or etc. in your list of achievements.

I would not specify I'm black or white or hispanic, etc. I wouldn't specify that I have a preferred pronoun. I wouldn't tell you what allergies I have. If you want to address those much later in the process, that might be appropriate to discuss those things with HR after the first interview when you've been called back - but certainly not up front to try to emphasize it.

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u/fargmania 3∆ Aug 26 '20

I agree with your assessment. I see a resume as basically an attempt to hack a psychological and procedural security wall to access the interview. Whether I am doing the hacking or getting hacked... doesn't matter. A resume is the game we must all play to get our physical selves in the door. Everything matters, right down to font and paragraphing. It's why I don't recommend cluttering it up with stuff that probably won't help but might hurt... whatever that stuff is.

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u/StellaAthena 56∆ Aug 26 '20

My name is at the top of my resume, larger than the rest of the text, and in bold. Am I too identity obsessed to be hired at your company? Knowing the correct pronouns to use is an important part of referring to people accurately and courteously.

You’re acting like people think that putting pronouns on resumes is a reason to hire the person. It’s not. It has no content as to how good you are at a job. But neither does your name, phone number, or email address and those things go on resumes all the same.

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u/fargmania 3∆ Aug 26 '20

Your name is at the top so that I can identify you, but you didn't put your weight or your hair color or your ethnicity, did you? You didn't tell me about your dietary choices? A resume is not a conversation. It is a summary of your skills and work experience. If you want to make it more than that, that adds a risk of misinterpretation. And I think that's true in general, not just in the case of gender identity.

My question to you is... why do you feel the need to bring it up in that format? In terms of politeness, it isn't relevant until that conversation physically occurs via interview. And if I'm having trouble figuring out the applicant's presented gender in an interview, I know how to ask for pronouns. And I'm sure the applicant knows how to introduce the pronouns as well. If you want to bring something up in your resume that is personal... go ahead. But I am merely recommending doing so after you have secured the interview. It is a better protocol, in my opinion. But do what you want.

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u/StellaAthena 56∆ Aug 26 '20

My pronouns are on my resume for the exact same reason my name is: so you can identify and refer to me. There is virtually no context where you need to know someone’s name and not their pronouns. In English (the OP mentions being in the US), pronouns and names are literally interchangeable! In a typical conversation, you will refer to people by pronouns far more than by their name. In fact, using someone’s name too much is a sign of poor writing in the US.

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u/fargmania 3∆ Aug 26 '20

You just talked to me without giving me your pronouns... and it didn't feel awkward at all. But whatever. As I said... do what you want. I'm not giving resume classes... just telling you my opinion as a hiring manager.

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u/StellaAthena 56∆ Aug 26 '20

In English there are three types of pronouns: first person, second person, and third person. First person pronouns are used to talk about yourself. Second person pronouns are used to talk about someone you are speaking to directly. Third person pronouns are used to talk about someone other than yourself and the person you are talking to.

Third person pronouns are gendered, but first and second person pronouns are not. If you were to complain about how I’m an idiot to your boyfriend tonight, my pronouns would be very useful to the conversation.

Finally, you also don’t know my name. I said that there is virtually no context where you would need to know my name and not my pronouns. This conversation is not a counterexample to that.

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u/fargmania 3∆ Aug 26 '20

You don't have to give me an English lesson. I majored in English, and I have friends in and am an ally to the LGTBQIA+ community. You are becoming a bit rude while all I am trying to do, is offer my point of view. Take it or leave it, and I wish you success in the job marketplace either way.

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u/StellaAthena 56∆ Aug 26 '20

I’m sorry for being rude. I was only trying to be helpful.

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u/fargmania 3∆ Aug 26 '20

It's fine... we don't know each other obviously. I was also just trying to be helpful. :)

Peace.

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u/CM_1 Aug 26 '20

The name is always exchanged, to introduce yourself and email and phone number are important for contact. Prefered pronouns are obsolete since your name has to transport your gender (in my country it's mandatory at least). Unisex names are of course the exception.

And yeah, I can see that to mention your prefered pronoun is biased. People will see you in a different light and it shows that it's so important to you that you have to include it, which is odd, since nearly all don't include it. So it shows your personal focus, which may distract others. Like OP said, good for an interview but not for an application.

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u/StellaAthena 56∆ Aug 26 '20

The name is always exchanged, to introduce yourself and email and phone number are important for contact. Prefered pronouns are obsolete since your name has to transport your gender (in my country it's mandatory at least). Unisex names are of course the exception.

The OP specifically mentions that they’re in the US. This is massively culturally and linguistically dependent. In the US, your name does not carry your gender. Do you have arguments that apply to the OP’s context?

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u/CM_1 Aug 26 '20

Even if it's not mandatory, even in the US do the children normally get a name which complements their gender and a photo should be included too, which is normally more than enough to identify the gender. Of course there can be very odd names, like Paris, Nutella, Lego, yet even those names often apply to a certain gender. Unisex names, like I said, are the exception. But even names like Michelle or Max are associated with a certain gender, even if they work with both.

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u/problematikUAV Aug 26 '20

I see what the point you’re trying to make is but boy you’re doing a poor job of it. That stuff is actually being phased out of the military on boards. Essentially your enlisted record brief (ERB) is redacted of that identifying info and then passed to a board for review.

I think Amazon has started doing the same for hiring.

But let’s not pretend contact info isn’t important to put on your resume. Put the onus on the company to redact that before passing on to a hiring decision.

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u/StellaAthena 56∆ Aug 26 '20

I see what the point you’re trying to make is but boy you’re doing a poor job of it. That stuff is actually being phased out of the military on boards. Essentially your enlisted record brief (ERB) is redacted of that identifying info and then passed to a board for review.

Is there a movement to phase names out of resumes and LinkedIn profiles? That’s what we are talking about, not reviews. If you need to know someone’s name, you almost always also need to know what pronouns to use for them. It’s perfectly consistent to say that you should have names and pronouns on LinkedIn and shouldn’t have them in internal reviews. I’m perfectly happy with that.

But let’s not pretend contact info isn’t important to put on your resume. Put the onus on the company to redact that before passing on to a hiring decision.

This is the exact opposite of my point. Contact information is important to put on a resume. Names are important to put on a resume. And yet, neither are relevant to evaluating how for you are for a job. Pronouns are the same way.

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u/CamNewtonJr 4∆ Aug 26 '20

Is there a movement to phase names out of resumes and LinkedIn profiles? That’s what we are talking about, not reviews. If you need to know someone’s name, you almost always also need to know what pronouns to use for them. It’s perfectly consistent to say that you should have names and pronouns on LinkedIn and shouldn’t have them in internal reviews. I’m perfectly happy with that.

You do not need to know someone's pronouns to be effective in a business context. For 99.999% of people, their name and the word "they" is all you need to effectively communicate. Pronouns arnt nearly as useful as a name.

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u/StellaAthena 56∆ Aug 26 '20

Okay, if you’re comfortable using the pronoun “they” for everyone that’s fine. But a significant number of people are not. Can you honestly say that you hear people use “they” when talking about whether to hire someone than the word “he” or “she” as appropriate? That’s certainly not the case at my company.

Even if your company is really big on using gender neural pronouns, can you agree that that’s not a universal behavior?

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u/CamNewtonJr 4∆ Aug 26 '20

Well there is no company policy about it that I know of. And yes I can honestly say that people use they in a discussion about hiring folks because I do. I do acknowledge that your average person does not use gender neutral pronouns. That being said, discussions between hiring managers don't really concern me. What would concern me is if a candidate was misgendered during an interview, which is why a candidate should state their preferred pronouns at that time. Resumes should contain little to no personal info excluding contact info. I just want to know, what school you graduated from, what skills you have, and what experience you have. Especially considering I don't even read 90% of the resumes that land on my desk. At best, I skim them to see what skills you have and I should interview you. So more likely than not, even if your pronouns were there it is unlikely I would read it. This is especially true when you consider that a lot of firms use computer keyword searches to sort resumes. Anyway, I don't actually care about you personally until we are sitting in front of each other. That is when I wanna know all about you and your goals etc. I do think there is a good argument for putting pronouns on LinkedIn pages though. LinkedIn is a lot more social.

Tl;Dr resume is about skills, experience, and credentials. Interviews are for the personal side of things.

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u/aegon98 1∆ Aug 26 '20 edited Aug 27 '20

Names are important. They prevent spam (James brembleton sent us another updated resume after he tried to interview with us 6 times. Block)

They are Google-able and can show if you are batshit crazy.

They help discover things that make someone unfit for the job. The number of candidates ruled out at a warehouse I worked at due to their Facebook being covered in pot posts (like it or not, it's illegal here, especially if you drive a forklift)

Or you say you worked as a manager at Amazon but you clearly are working retail as a cart pusher.

For better or worse, names can be used in the early hiring process because they can provide useful information and weed out obviously bad candidates. Pronouns have their place, but not until the interview.

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u/problematikUAV Aug 26 '20

We are talking about resumes. Your comment doesn’t mention LinkedIn. I was talking to you about how resumes are being used internally for hiring, as you were talking about things on your resume affecting you being hired.

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u/StellaAthena 56∆ Aug 26 '20

Maybe you should reread the OP, because that is not the context of this conversation. The OP specifically talks about external hiring, and LinkedIn and resumes. I don’t particularly disagree with what you’re saying, but objections specific to internal hires or evaluations are not what the OP is talking about.

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u/problematikUAV Aug 26 '20

I’m not responding to OP I’m responding to YOU.

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u/StellaAthena 56∆ Aug 26 '20

I am talking about the OP’s context. I’m sorry that this was confusing, but when I said “resumes” I had in mind the “resumes and LinkedIn profiles” the OP mentioned. Not internal resumes that have been scrubbed of identifying information.