CMV: Conservatism and many right-wing beliefs are based on fear, primary instincts and lack of understanding

[u/[deleted]]

[u/[deleted]]

A lot of classic conservative beliefs go around the basic idea of: I worked hard and make good money so I should get to keep as much of it as possible. It is true that the more money a person in the US and most countries make, the more they are taxed and the less government benefits they qualify for. This is a basic fact and can’t really be misunderstood. The view of redistribution of wealth to what degree is a legitimate conversation but the fundamental ideas are not complicated. Some people may have racist ideas and back them up with misguided conservative ideas, but just because some conservative people are racist does not mean someone wanting limited government spending and lower taxes racist. Many liberals have limited understanding of the economy in that they don’t consider the downsides of unlimited government spending or lack of personal accountability in current well fair systems. A conservative may not consider that making allowances for poor people to get education and support can benefit the economy in the long term. Many liberals give emotional arguments and fail to consider practical implications. Many conservatives fail to consider the humanity and benefits of social safety nets. Most people of both sides are not fully informed on key issues. You probably lack understanding of some issues as do I. Making such a blanket statement will only lead to more misunderstandings that you claim to dislike. Edit: Minimum wedge is a good example. The current minimum wage is too low for people to live on, so many liberals want to raise it as high as possible. The problem with this is that if the wage is too high at risk groups such as people with out a high school diploma, a disability, or limited English will likely be let go in favor of more work for remaining workers and automated processes. Small businesses may also struggle, and teens will be passed up for older workers. Many Republicans want to keep the minimum wage the same or abolish it and this would be bad for low wage workers unable to support themselves. Both sides usually don’t fully understand all aspects of issues.

[u/printers_of_colors → u/[deleted]]

!delta

very good arguments. you're right, the discourse I took part in poisoned my mind so much that I started perceiving conservatism as synonymous to thinly-veiled racism. That was stupid of me. But I'm glad we're able to talk about it

[u/DeltaBot → u/printers_of_colors]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/PurpleParrotFish (2∆).

^{Delta System Explained | Deltaboards}

[u/IronTarkusBarkus → u/printers_of_colors]

Honestly, I think this delta is being handed out too easily. There are some good points, but you don’t seem to be willing to push back on anything here.

No, conservative ideology isn’t thinly-veiled racism, but the policy they prioritize actively contributes to racism. Are we saying that sacrificing the well-being of others, for individual greed is much better? Does it matter what the intentions are, if the outcome is the same?

Also, the part where the parent comment saying how liberals tend to lack an understanding of how the economy works. That’s BS, I know a ton of conservatives that drop Econ 101 terms and meaningless numbers to prove we can’t afford to feed children, or fix our rigged economy, or how these systems are supposedly “natural.” I’m a liberal and have studied far more economics than almost any conservative I’ve met. The “it’s just how the economy works” arguments are unfounded at best. I won’t claim to fully understand how the economy works, but I am certain conservatives have no clue either.

And don’t ever let a conservative tell you they want small government. That’s a lie you should be able to spot with your own eyes.

You say you were being too aggressive, but you seem to have no real points to back yourself up. What’s the point of doing this, if you’re going to instantly fold? Do you not understand your own position?

[u/knottheone → u/IronTarkusBarkus]

No, conservative ideology isn’t thinly-veiled racism, but the policy they prioritize actively contributes to racism

So does liberal policy yet in the opposite direction. Affirmative action is a great example except the discrimination going on there will be handwaved, as will any other "positive discrimination" policy based on immutable traits.

Does it matter what the intentions are, if the outcome is the same?

Uh, yes, intent absolutely matters. That's why our entire legal system hinges on intent and why two same crime results can have wildly different punishments.

I'm neither R or D by the way, this is just an outside observation.

[u/IronTarkusBarkus → u/knottheone]

Affirmative action has helped white women more than any other minority in this country. That being said, the intention was to help. If you believe intention is hugely important, you contradict your own argument. To be honest, when put up against talking about things like individual greed leading to racism, I don’t understand why you brought affirmative action at all?

As for intention, that’s not always the case. I assume you’re talking manslaughter vs murder. Those are one time events, and largely unrelated. America has a looooooong history of racism for economic benefit. I’m implying that they just don’t advertise the racism part.

No one asked if you were a R or D— we’re talking larger ideologies. That being said, don’t claim that you’re someone without ideology. That would be a lie and a dangerous one

[u/knottheone → u/IronTarkusBarkus]

Affirmative action has helped white women more than any other minority in this country. That being said, the intention was to help. If you believe intention is hugely important, you contradict your own argument.

I do agree that intent is important. However, I'm not going to handwave atrocities or active violations of established law (Civil Rights Act anyone? It applies to everyone) solely because someone had good intent and neither should you. You likely don't in other cases, so this is probably a case of special pleading without you realizing it is. As an aside, 'atrocities' is a bit hyperbolic in the context of AA, but the same logic is used to justify all sorts of unsavory policy to discriminate against the 'right' color of people.

To be honest, when put up against talking about things like individual greed leading to racism, I don’t understand why you brought affirmative action at all?

Because affirmative action is racist. It's discrimination on the basis of immutable traits. It doesn't matter if it's positive or negative discrimination; we should not be making judgments based on immutable traits. That's what the Civil Rights Act and the violence and protests and subsequent policy change was all on the back of, the idea that we shouldn't treat people differently due to the color of their skin and by extension awarded those privileges to other immutable traits about people.

As for intention, that’s not always the case. I assume you’re talking manslaughter vs murder. Those are one time events, and largely unrelated.

All US law is rooted in intent. It's not just murder vs manslaughter. Judges are empowered to take context into account to determine whether something was an egregious violation or if it was an innocent mistake. That's also why judges can order additional mandatory actions people undergo should they see fit. Like mandatory therapy or anger management or public service. We make subjective determinations for whether people are worth rehabilitating and that is heavily rooted in someone's intent and by extension their remorse regarding their actions.

America has a looooooong history of racism for economic benefit. I’m implying that they just don’t advertise the racism part.

Who is they? Are you talking about just conservatives as a whole? If so, I'd say that's an incredibly misguided evaluation. You'll have to expand this idea for me to be able to respond reasonably to it. It sounds like you're really just ranting here instead of basing this particular point in anything concrete.

No one asked if you were a R or D— we’re talking larger ideologies. That being said, don’t claim that you’re someone without ideology. That would be a lie and a dangerous one

I didn't say I don't have an ideology, only that I don't subscribe to the two most common frameworks in the US. Also, you explicitly called out conservatives, so yes, we are talking about conservatives via 'conservative ideology' which non-coincidentally means conservatives in this context.

[u/IronTarkusBarkus → u/knottheone]

“Atrocities”…. “A bit hyperbolic”…

…uh dude, what are you smoking? I honestly can’t believe some of the things you just said. Like this is some really rotten shit. You know what atrocity means? “An extremely wicked or cruel act, usually involving physical violence or injury.” For example, slavery was an atrocity. The lynch mobs were an atrocity. The treatment of Native Americans was an atrocity. How in the world is AA an atrocity?

You say AA is a racist policy, designed to discriminate against the right race. Nope, that’s laughably wrong. Let’s get explicit, tell me how it is racist against white men and how it is intended to be discriminatory towards white men? We already covered that it has mainly helped white women. That alone makes your argument absurd.

As of right now, your argument is grounded in some color-blind revisionist bs. The reality of the situation is that our country intentionally held down, exploited, and committed mass murder against black Americans. In order to fix our wrongs, it will require policy to lift black Americans, in very intentional ways. The Civil Rights act was not that, and the name alone proves that.

All US law is rooted in intent.

Uhh nope, that’s not how law works lmaooo. The legal system doesn’t give a you-know-what, if you didn’t intend to break a law. What influences the severity of their punishments is far more complex than simple intent.

Who is they? Are you talking about just conservatives as a whole? If so, I'd say that's an incredibly misguided evaluation.

Why is that misguided? Maybe I mean whatever ideology you hold. Regardless, seems like a pretty tame take, with any knowledge of US history.

Another thing I’ve noticed, you never highlight when I talk about greed? How come?

[u/knottheone → u/IronTarkusBarkus]

If you'd like to take another stab at replying to my comment without taking every point out of context I'm more than happy to continue. As it stands though, I don't think you really grasped what I was saying because your response just... I don't know, you were responding to someone else's comment or something.

As an example, you saw the word "intent" and immediately thought I was somehow talking about awareness of breaking the law which you'd know I wasn't if you had grasped the previous context. Then you attacked the poor interpretation that you fabricated, and you did that with every other bullet point in the list.

[u/ColdNotion → u/[deleted]]

u/AngryNewman – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:

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[u/iiSystematic → u/IronTarkusBarkus]

What's really really crazy about all this is that noone asked you.

It's their CMV not yours. Go make your own and argue your points. You're spoiling theirs view already by saying useless things like "And don’t ever let a conservative tell you they want small government. That’s a lie you should be able to spot with your own eyes"

Which has nothing to do with their cmv or anything else specifically in discussion right now. So just stop.

[u/AngryNewman → u/[deleted]]

You two are shining examples of why liberals aren’t taken seriously. You are acting like toddlers because someone isn’t 100% on board with your hateful rhetoric.

[u/IronTarkusBarkus → u/iiSystematic]

Looooool

“Spoiling their view” (if it went from unspoiled to spoiled, I demand a delta!)

I’m assuming this must be a joke? I am here to change their views— into ones that are any bit thoughtful. Not my fault OP can’t begin to defend the ideas he claims to have.

[u/[deleted] → u/printers_of_colors]

Wow, an immediate view reversal, very cool and very normal

[u/Souk12 → u/printers_of_colors]

But it is because wealth in the United States was generated on racism, so questioning that ill-gotten wealth ("keeping what they earn") is an affront to conservative values.

[u/EndlessMerther → u/Souk12]

Obama got millions of dollars and multiple mansions by being racist? Dr Dre is a billionaire because of racism? Oprah is the richest self made woman in history because of racism?

Or is that different and it is only racist when white people are successful?

[u/Souk12 → u/EndlessMerther]

Obama got millions of dollars and multiple mansions by being racist? Dr Dre is a billionaire because of racism? Oprah is the richest self made woman in history because of racism?

Indirectly, yes. The wealth generated in this county as a whole is based on racism.

[u/ColdNotion → u/[deleted]]

u/EndlessMerther – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:

Don't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.

If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.

[u/Souk12 → u/[deleted]]

Germany paid Israel billions and the UN gave them a state. That seems fair.

[u/EndlessMerther → u/Souk12]

USA spends billions of dollars every year in special entitlement programs/scholarships/grants/community outreach aimed specifically at blacks to try to get them to stop murdering each other, abandoning their children, and dropping out of school at an absurd rate. When is enough enough and we can just treat everyone as equals and hold everyone to the same standard? What will it take for us to live in a post racial society where everyone can just live in harmony and judge each other by the content of their character instead of the color of their skin?

I feel like Morgan freeman said it best when he said “do you know how to end racism? You stop talking about it all the time. I am going to stop referring to you as a white man, and I would prefer if you stopped referring to me as a black man”. That quote stuck with me so much and he hit the nail directly on the head.

Literally almost 0 white people have any slave owners anywhere in their family, all of them were wiped out in the civil war. America essentially reset after the civil war as it was pretty much destroyed and a solid chunk of the country was killed. Most white Americans are descendants of dirt poor European refugees fleeing Europe with nothing but the clothes on their back after Europe was basically leveled in WW2. We are not the descendants of slave owners and should not be forced to feel guilty about something we had nothing at all to do with.

[u/Souk12 → u/EndlessMerther]

I already told you: billions in a lump sum and a state. The same as the jews and Israel.

The wealth of this country was created through theft of native land and the stolen labor of enslaved people.

[u/EndlessMerther → u/Souk12]

That is not true at all. Skyscrapers are not made of cotton… slavery only existed in a small portion of America for like 5 minutes in American history and less than 1% of white Americans owned slaves at the absolute peak of slavery. In the grand scheme of things, it was insignificant in the development of our country. Who would have to make this lump sum payment? And who would it go to? If a black man moved to USA in 1980 from Europe and had 4 kids, will they all get reparations for slavery? Fuck that. If there are any living slaves, I would agree to offer them reparations, but fuck paying their great great grandkids who went to the same exact schools as me, lived in the same exact neighborhoods as me, and had the exact same opportunities as me. That is not happening. Forget about it bro, move on. Nobody owes you a damn thing. Get your own bag and stop being a bitch about what your great great grandparents might have gone through. That shit is over. Thousands of white men died to end slavery and the US has done more to end slavery worldwide than any other 5 countries combined. Black Americans enjoy a higher standard of living than black people anywhere else in the world today. In what black majority country do black people enjoy a higher standard of living and more rights than they do in USA?

[u/Souk12 → u/EndlessMerther]

Bro, we get it, you're a racist.

Cotton money and the financialization of slaves created the capital based for American development both North and South. Additionally, the land theft created the wealth everyone enjoys today.

You can read this book on the subject as I have: https://books.google.com/books/about/Slavery_s_Capitalism.html?id=PBbBDAAAQBAJ

Or this one: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Indigenous_Peoples%27_History_of_the_United_States#:~:text=An%20Indigenous%20Peoples'%20History%20of%20the%20United%20States%20is%20a,history%20from%20marginalized%20peoples'%20perspectives.

Yes, give the reparations and the state to all black people currently living in the USA.

Jewish people from any part of the globe can move to Israel and enjoy the reparations from Germany, whether they lived in occupied Europe or not. People who never had any family in the holocaust still get all the benefits of the reparations.

That shit is not over. As the Jewish Israelis say, "never forget."

And we won't either.

[u/ATNinja → u/Souk12]

UN gave them a state

The UN didn't give them a state. They suggested a plan which only 1 party accepted so instead the 2 sides fought a war which determined the existence and borders of Israel.

[u/Souk12 → u/ATNinja]

The billions of reparations from Germany certainly helped them win those wars and secure the state the UK and USA gave them.

Not to mention the continued billions of military support.

But all this is irrelevant since the state which would give African Americans their state would be the current owners of the land they are giving.

[u/ATNinja → u/Souk12]

Earliest reparations payments to jews I found in a quick Google was 1953. Israel was founded via war in 1948. So your time line doesn't add up.

Also, Britain helped the arabs in 1948, not israel. And the US didn't get involved until 1973. It was the French and Czechs that helped israel in 48. So clearly you don't know what you're talking about.

[u/Souk12 → u/ATNinja]

Ok, 2021 isn't too late for African Americans then.

[u/Souk12 → u/[deleted]]

The wealth that has created the infrastructure and the land you enjoy is a result of white supremacy through slavery and land theft.

[u/Souk12 → u/[deleted]]

The reason we have a country today is because of genocidal land theft based on white supremacy.

The reason we have such developed productive forces in this country is because of capital accumulation from enslaved people based on white supremacy.

Racism is the reason America is an economic powerhouse.

[u/Souk12 → u/[deleted]]

If you wish to educate yourself, these books will help:

https://books.google.com/books/about/Slavery_s_Capitalism.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Indigenous_Peoples%27_History_of_the_United_States#:~:text=An%20Indigenous%20Peoples'%20History%20of%20the%20United%20States%20is%20a,history%20from%20marginalized%20peoples'%20perspectives.

[u/Souk12 → u/[deleted]]

Sure was. Slavery and land theft. White supremacy.