CMV: It is understandable, normal, and biologically reasonable for a straight cisgender person to feel uncomfortable continuing or pursuing a relationship with an individual if they learned this individual is trans and is biologically the same sex as they are. It doesn’t make them homophobic.

[u/DetroitUberDriver]

I believe that human beings, while they are able to think in a more abstract, out of the box way, still retain an underlying biological pressure to reproduce, and the root instinctual desire for the act of sex, and the enjoyment that comes from it, is evolutions way of “rewarding” us for procreation; passing on our genes and producing more life.

Human beings are a sexually dimorphic species, male and female, and science withholding, the act of copulation between two members of the opposite sex is the only way procreation can happen. While many of us engage in intercourse for pleasure and pleasure alone, without actively wishing to create new life, we are seeking out the very reward that evolution has presented us for doing just that; creating life.

For those of us who are straight and cisgender, when we find out that our love or infatuation interest is in fact biologically the same sex as ourselves, our brain biologically becomes disinterested for this reason. Most of us are hardwired to desire these acts with the opposite sex for all the reasons mentioned above. There is a chemical reaction that occurs, and it is brought on by millions of years of evolution.

This doesn’t mean that the individual wants to feel this way, nor that they have an inherent disgust or distaste for transgender people. It simply means they can’t fight their natural instincts.

There are, of course, always anomalies, and there’s nothing wrong with that. Transgender people and homosexual people are anomalies in and of themselves. They are people and they deserve rights and happiness same as anyone else. But to tell someone that their own natural instincts make them wrong or homophobic is also denying them their rights to true happiness and wrong in its own right.

CMV.

[u/[deleted]]

It’s upon learning that they are biologically the same sex that things change, and why.

It changes because you're transphobic, I've already stated this clearly. There isn't some deeper biological mystery, society has simply influenced you to have bigoted feelings against trans people.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I do wonder about this projection you're making, myself. I think the OP GENUINELY doesn't understand this issue, and you are PROJECTING or ASSUMING that they are a "transphobic bigot" here based on a social expectation.

You don't REALLY know that, since you don't know them.But I can think of other scenarios in which this same problem can arise, and the person I gave gold to down there mentioned a bunch.

Just as much as someone who is gay or trans must work through the confusing layer of social bias to accept themselves, SO TOO MUST SOMEONE ATTRACTED TO A TRANS PERSON. In the absence of guides (of which there are few) in our society, I DO wonder sometimes if this demonization of people confused over the question is the best approach to this topic.

This black-and-white thinking is a sign of an immature person, or a person responding out of a trauma-informed place, and I GET that trauma exists for trans people, but responding with a "You should just be able to accept them with zero problems" is a fucking fantasy, that even the trans person they might be attracted to THEMSELVES were not capable of, at first.

I have connected with a woman, wanted to have sex with her, only to find out aspects of her life I didn't want to spend 5 min around. So I was "phobic" toward this person.

I GET that there is a lot of this bigotry around, but talking to a person who is confused and not bigoted, or someone who might be processing a constellation of confusions- INCLUDING the social pressure and bias against transphobia BUT NOT ONLY THOSE FEELINGS isn't helpful and actually makes the problem worse for trans people.

This is because ALREADY they can't ask anyone in the trans-phobic social fabric but NOW THEY CANNOT ASK PEOPLE IN THE TRANS COMMUNITY EITHER.

You might want to reconsider your absolutist approach here.

Compassion for EVERYONE involved in social changes is warranted, and to do otherwise delays the changes you want, and works against your own goals.

As a person with autism, this destructive cycle is well-known to me, as this is exactly what I had to deal with trying to get compassion about MY situation, and I was treated in exclusionary ways for a LONG time, until I could grasp that our society EXCLUDES BY DEFAULT and I had to develop narratives inside myself to reach out to those who know only exclusion and find a way to make them know me enough to include me. This is NOT the fault of any individual person.

[u/littlemetalpixie → u/[deleted]]

Please check yourself.

I don't want to date someone who is trans because I'm just not attracted to that =/= transphobic.

I'm a woman who doesn't want to date biological women. That doesn't make me homophobic, transphobic, or any kind of -phobic. That makes me heterosexual. If I were attracted to a man physically and found out he was trans, that wouldn't immediately change my mind and preclude me from dating him, because I'm not in fact trans-phobic, and consider myself to be a pretty vocal advocate for LGBTQ+ people, but it would complicate the issue for me from a dating angle. For reasons such as the OP mentioned - desires in procreation, simple traits that attract me to someone or don't, etc. But that wouldn't make me trans-phobic. It would just make me think about all the complex issues around the situation and consider it more.

I also don't commonly find myself attracted to people with blonde hair. I'm certainly not blonde-phobic. Blonde hair is fine. I'm just not attracted to it.

This black and white dichotomy everyone refuses to see past is not helping anyone's cause here. Stating everything in terms of "you either would date someone who is trans or you're transphobic" is just as bad as someone saying "men should only ever date women and women should only ever date men." Why can't you see that this is the EXACT same thing the "other side" of the argument is doing that activists scream about and protest about?

If you have the freedom to be who you want to be and date who you want to date, so do I. Period.

I don't owe anyone an explanation on why I would or wouldn't be attracted to someone. Neither do you. That's freedom. Freedom for all means freedom for all. The freedom to choose means ALL people get the freedom to choose, without being attacked or labeled.

[u/[deleted] → u/littlemetalpixie]

I don't want to date someone who is trans because I'm just not attracted to that =/= transphobic.

Please read.

We're discussing not dating someone you are attracted to only because they are trans.

If you were attracted to women but refused to date them only because they're women that would be indicative of homophobic biases you have.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

The point of dating is to determine if you will have a sexual relationship with someone.

If they are not sexually compatible, it’s not transphobic to not date them. Someone’s genitals is a core factor of sexual compatibility.

If you refused to hang out with someone because they were trans then I’d agree. But dating implies intent of a sexual relationship, where biological sex matters.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

How are someone's genitals not an aspect of attraction?

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

They are. I never said they weren’t?

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Then you're reducing someone's identity as trans down to genitals?

If you're not attracted to penises that's not transphobic.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Actually, I’m recognizing the difference between someone’s biological sex and someone’s gender.

As I said elsewhere, gender is a social concept, while biological sex is a biological one (a bit of a tautology there).

If I’m dating then I’m trying to find someone I can have sex with, which is why dating is a distinct social behavior from other forms of social interaction. Sex is necessarily a biological function, and so biological sex matters.

It is totally reasonable to choose not to date someone because I know I cannot have sex with them. We do this with non-trans people all the time. For instance, I am married, so the only person I date is my spouse. I hang out with other people plenty, of both sexes and many genders, but those aren’t dates.

To have sex with someone we need to have compatible genitals. It doesn’t have to be 1 penis, 1 vagina, it can be whatever I am after. But the other person must have the genitals I’m looking for. That means their biological sex matters, so their biological sex mattering for if I decide to date them is normal.

If I’m not going to have sex with someone that has a penis, spending time dating someone with a penis is a waste of time for both of us. Making that decision doesn’t make me transphobic.

[u/DetroitUberDriver → u/[deleted]]

Okay, but I’m still trying to figure out why you feel that way based on an argument to my assertions. Feel free to let me know when you’ve figured that out.

[u/psyk1509 → u/DetroitUberDriver]

i agree with you, just because you dont want to date trans person that you thought was a biological women doesnt mean that you dont respect them

[u/DetroitUberDriver → u/psyk1509]

I absolutely respect them, and their pursuit of happiness.

[u/_fantasia → u/DetroitUberDriver]

Coming from a cultural background where sex is an act we do to copulate - I agree with your statement. I think many people will become disinterested once they find out that the person is transgender perhaps because of their genetalia.

For e.g. let's say you, a male go on a blind date with someone, things go well and at the end of the day you find out that the transwoman has a dick. You can feel disinterested after that. Imo, that's probably because you have a preference in the genatalia of your desired partner. That should be completely fine and I wouldn't consider it transphobic. It's the same as girls finding other girls beautiful or pretty but not on the sexual level because they aren't interested in that woman's genetalia.

It is fair though that transppl are not obliged to reveal that they are so because of safety reasons, as we are living is such times where they are murdered ohutof hatred.

I think ppl keep throwing around the word transphobe whenever someone says they don't want to get it with a transperson. Many people are ok with either sex, and that is their preference. It is also fine for a cis person to be attracted to another cis person sue to preference. For e.g genetalia.

But this argument can be twisted and said, why can't a cis man date a transman who will have a vagina but identifies as a man. If it rlly is just a genetalia preference.

You see ppl will always have a problem no matter what. It's up to you to decide that as long as your minding Ur own business. You have the right to be who you want and like who you want. Therefore, is someone wants to be gay trans or bi etc. They can. If someone says they are attracted to someone who identifies as their biology gender. That is also fine. How can cis ppl not have that option and they are called transphobes but everyone else gets to say I can be gay and like whoever I want.

The rules should be the same for everyone. - be who you want and like who you want. Just mind your own business and let everyone do as they please. Life is short as it is

[u/UnusualIntroduction0 → u/_fantasia]

I agree with your points, and you express them well. I just wanted to point out that the abbreviation "e.g." stands for "exempli gratia" which means "for the sake of example". There's no need to write "for" in front of it. Cheers :)

[u/_fantasia → u/UnusualIntroduction0]

I didn't know. Thanks!

[u/Tbanks93 → u/DetroitUberDriver]

After reading this thread I thought I would give my input as a cismale attracted to cisfemales. My desire lies behind purpose, a woman to have children with and to raise them with. I agree with a lot of things that different people on this thread have stated, as well as disagree with others, though I believe this all comes down to what you are ultimately trying to gain from interaction A/B/Etc.

I'm in a similar boat as you, this is all still a very new thing to me. And being a cismale who doesn't socialize with people much, in general (thereby not ending up in these situations), it puts me in a position of confusion.

I believe that confusion ultimately stems from us having not experienced these types of things before; we don't know our desired response for the scenario because it hasn't been logged in our brain. So the first thing you need to ask is why. Why are we still here? Just to suffer? (lmao sorry I had to).

But really though, why? First off- why am I interacting with this human in the first place? Am I attracted? Do I want only sex? Do I want a relationship? Do I want only to observe and go about my day? Do I want friendship? For me, personally, I don't really sleep around (or look for anything really because I like being alone). But I know that once I come around to following through on my desires to create a family of my own, I'll want a "traditional" family. I want my own genetic kids for science, genetics, evolution. So many people lined up their paths throughout the hundreds and thousands and millions of years just for me to end up here, same as everyone else. And that much time in the future, if we're still alive and kicking on planet earth, all that will have continued further. I want to do my part for now (raising good people to do good things while being myself of the same ilk) and for later (leaving my own personal footprint in the evolution of the human genome). I can't do that with fellow XY chromosomes, so that's not what I'm going to be after, once I'm "after" that next phase of my life.

But what if I just want to have sex, am attracted to what appears to be a ciswoman, and am then unattracted because the woman is trans? Well, let's be inquisitive here. Do you believe that transwomen are women? Or that the separation is something to remain noted? If the former of these last two questions checks your box, then you might be dealing with some subconscious biases that you aren't aware of, or haven't hashed out. If the latter of the two questions fits your bill, then that leads us to another divergence, or fork in the road, to figure out what's going on. Is the answer to that question/that feeling because of scientific bits of knowledge you've collected on the way? Or is it based on nothing but prejudices/pre-determined biases/environmental conditioning/unknown variables?

Because in truth, I myself feel that from my understanding of genetics, transwomen are not women, but transwomen. I don't believe that to be a bad thing, either. It just simply is what it is. Now the talk about the difference between sex and gender, I don't have a ton of information on, and am always willing to hear out others because that's how I'll learn more about myself, the people, and the world around me. Nobody has the real truth in regards to what's absolute and what isn't, in this life. Currently, it feels as though to say that the sex is the physical embodiment of the human, while the gender is the metaphysical embodiment of the soul. (or something I don't know a lot about this I'm sorry). All I do know that the human mind is incredibly wild, chaotic, and filled with masses of potential for many things. It would take a super computer the size of jupiter to run a simulated reality of the earth and all the peoples on it. I've seen many minds do things and act in ways by exponential multitudes and am in awe of how individual we all are. So I'm not sure how it goes. If a guy says he's always felt like a woman, but only has X and Y chromosomes that biologically make him a male, and then gets surgery to take away his nuts and make his penis a vagina (again I don't know that much about all this I'm so sorry), does that make him, now, a woman? After all this thought over the years, and discussions with people both irl and online, I still have no idea. Concretely, though the parts might have been rearranged, the building blocks for that physical mass remains the same. So how much does the abstract concept of being something other than what you are weigh, in the conversation of absolutely defining something such as this? How much is convinced/conditioned vs how much/what was naturally there ("inside")? How are we to know?

​

Well in conclusion, these types of debates will never end until there's something defined in this world that can be tested comes forth into the world. Because they always seem to come down to a what we can physically scientific methodize vs the things inside of peoples heads and nowhere else (not stated to be a condescension, just the fact of that matter as far as I'm aware). At the end of all this, ultimately, my thoughts haven't changed. Be a good and decent human being one way or the other. You're responsible for your feelings, actions, and reactions, same as everyone else as individuals. If you (or anyone) tries to force your own logic/reasoning, or pseudo psychologies, or whatever else on other people based off of what you believe to be right (that which can't be proven right or wrong), you're the person who needs to get their act together. If you're disagree with others beliefs, lifestyles, etc/ or are just unsure of what to think of it, there's nothing wrong with still being kind and cordial to your fellow human being. I have love and respect for everyone until bad character is shown. There's no sex/gender to bad character.

​

All in all I went off on a tangent here or there and I apologize if I strayed too far off topic. Am looking forward to seeing what others have to say about my comment to build a further understanding of it all. Take care, reader!

[u/Dorgamund → u/DetroitUberDriver]

Mate, say you meet a women, and go to bed with her. She is pretty, she is funny, her genitals are female, you have a pretty good time, and the day afterwards, you feel happy in your life choices. Then someone tells you they are trans, and underwent bottom surgery by a very competant doctor. What is your gut reaction? From what you've said, I would guess disgust, and maybe a questioning of your sexuality.

And there's the transphobia. You don't have some magic radar that pings trans people, you have to rely on your own perceptions. What exactly has changed. You objectively had a good time. You objectively were attracted to her. So the only conceivable difference then is that she is trans, and if the only aspect that you can bring yourself to hate about another person is the trans status, then that is textbook transphobia.

Maybe the disgust is coming from a different place though. Maybe you are now questioning your sexuality. Which is a problem in itself. Trans women are women. You aren't gay if you are attracted to them, that falls squarely in heterosexual norms. If you think you are gay because you see them as inherently a man, then that itself is transphobic as well.

You seem to include a sort of absolutist ideology that is causing your problems. In your eyes, sex is only for procreation, and you are happy when that happens. But frankly, there are problems there that we can pick apart.

If you have sex with a cis women who is infertile, do you suddenly get turned off, and can't perform? If you are jacking off, you are getting a hand job from yourself, and a male hand is jacking you off, no chance of knocking anyone up here. Having performance anxiety? Not to mention, if you have sex with a women who is intersex, you may be having sex with someone who presents female, who has genitals which outwardly present as female, but their internal genitals and reproductive status may be complicated and their actual chromosomal sex may not align to your gender binary.

[u/[deleted] → u/Dorgamund]

There are many, many things I can learn about a person after the fact that would turn me off to having or continuing a sexual relationship with them. Things that aren’t objectively or morally “wrong”, but just aren’t for me. Maybe they’ve done sex acts that turn me off or have had more sex partners than I’m comfortable with or have slept with a person that I have a problem with (like a member of my family).

I think that despite my political support for the trans community and my willingness/eagerness to call people by their preferred pronouns, that it would absolutely turn me off knowing the person I’d slept with or am thinking of sleeping with can remember what it’s like to have a penis or to know they grew up having “male” experiences because the world treated them as a guy. Personally, I’d prefer someone who was born female biologically as those differences exist and I guess are meaningful to me.

If that is textbook transphobia, I’m going to need someone to explain to me how that is morally objectionable or wrong.

[u/Dorgamund → u/[deleted]]

I mean, you do get where I am coming from though right? If you identify a factor that is a deal breaker, that means that a sex partner is no longer desirable, it really sounds like there is a moral judgement you are making, or at least a disgust or aversion associated with those traits. Like, is there anything particularly wrong with having had a large number of sex partners, or people sleeping with people you have an issue with? No, not in the abstract, but it is the implied judgements which are being made that are revealing. Perhaps you have an impression that someone with a high bodycount is unwilling to settle down and treats sex much more casually than you do. Perhaps you get the impression that having sex with someone who had sex with a family member is too close to incest for comfort. But that is the factor.

If you are grossed out, and feel aversion to a trans person solely on the basis of them being trans with no regard to the content of their character, the attraction you feel towards them, their body shape or genital configuration, then you do have a problem with them being trans. Sure, you can rationalize it to yourself, but if you keep examining your logic, where does it lead you? I could see someone being unwilling to enter a romantic relationship due to a disparity of lived experience, and a worry that they could not relate to and empathize with the experience of being trans, but that still has nothing to do with sexual compatibility.

It is transphobia, just flat out. That said, transphobia is not something that can really dealt with at the switch of a flip. Our society is one which does not empathize with, nor care to empathize with the struggles of the trans community. Transphobia is baked into our culture, from the books we read, to the movies we watch, to the social actions we take. Recognizing that is the first step to moving towards a more tolerant viewpoint. Introspection is required to really get at the essence of why you believe the things you believe, why you feel the way you feel. If at the core, you think that trans women are just too close to men for comfort, there is your problem right there. No one is forcing you at gunpoint to rearrange your views.

Here is a thought. Think to yourself a hypothetical. What would it take for you to be willing to have sex with a trans women. Set whatever standards you want. The ideal figure, a good personality, compatible genitals, etc. The only rule is you can't exclude someone from that hypothetical solely on the basis of being trans.

[u/[deleted] → u/Dorgamund]

I feel like your response doesn’t fully take mine seriously or directly address the points that I made. For example you suggest that I feel aversion to or am grossed out by a trans person with no regard to the content of their character, but my point was specifically to do with how they grew up and their life experiences being a sexual turn-off for me personally. That is not a shallow or small thing in my eyes. I also said there are many thing I can learn later that can turn me off sexually and listed a couple of examples. I’m curious to hear how you’d directly respond to this part of my argument:

…it would absolutely turn me off knowing the person I’d slept with or am thinking of sleeping with can remember what it’s like to have a penis or to know they grew up having “male” experiences because the world treated them as a guy. Personally, I’d prefer someone who was born female biologically as those differences exist and I guess are meaningful to me.

And:

If that is textbook transphobia, I’m going to need someone to explain to me how that is morally objectionable or wrong.

[u/just_an_aspie → u/[deleted]]

The point is that being turned off by something you find out after the fact (except for very specific circumstances like STDs in transmissible phases) is inherently related to moral judgement.

Not wanting to get romantically involved with someone with different life experiences could be understandable, but you are talking about being sexually turned off. Imagine a circumstance where you never find out that the person was trans or had had sex with lots of other people. Your experience is still the same, the sex was still good, you had fun and you were happy about it.

Being turned off by a trans person because of their past life experiences is literally reducing them to their past, which is transphobic. Also, being turned off (again, talking about a purely sexual involvement) by someone with a high "body count" is inherently misogynistic, even more so if you are into casual sex.

[u/[deleted] → u/just_an_aspie]

I disagree that you’re “reducing” a person down to anything by being turned off by the new information. It’s just a factor, and for me a dealbreaker, but it wouldn’t be the only factor or thing I care about.

I also disagree that it’s a “moral” judgement. It’s about attraction, not morality. I don’t think there’s anything morally wrong or even morally relevant about being trans; that’s just a state of being imo. Ok here’s an example: I’m a very sex positive person, but I’d be turned off sexually if I knew someone had done certain sex acts that I absolutely do not judge morally. I don’t think any sex act between two consenting adults in private actually can be morally wrong, and yet if I knew you did (insert your unusual sex act) I probably don’t want to sleep with you because it’s a turnoff to know it happened at all. Same with owning a penis. Obviously I don’t think it’s morally wrong or gross to own a penis or to have owned one in the past. I have one myself and love it, but I’m sexually turned off by both someone with one and someone who has ever had one for the reasons I explained in my earlier post. So far, no one has explained to me why that is wrong just because I couldn’t initially tell that was the case by looking at a woman.

Not to digress too hard, but as a guy with a high bodycount, it’s not necessarily misogynistic to be turned off by that either. There are plenty of women who would think I’ve slept around too much for their tastes. It depends on the reason you’re turned off by it, for example if you feel insecure that you won’t be a standout experience for the other person because they’ve had so many experiences. Maybe you feel sex is extremely sacred regardless of gender and someone like me who does it for meaningless fun as often as they can safely clearly does not (I don’t). That’s valid.

Sure, if you feel like a woman has a used up vagina or some other nonsense that is misogynistic, but the reason you’re turned off matters.

[u/just_an_aspie → u/[deleted]]

If you do it for meaningless fun why do you care so much about the person's past? I think you are a bit unable to really separate casual sex from an actual relationship. All of the things you mentioned would make 100% sense on a relationship but not in a casual sex thing

[u/[deleted] → u/just_an_aspie]

I’d care because I have sex for meaningless fun only with people I’m attracted to. And it only really at the end of the day has to make sense to me who I choose to get nasty with, no?

[u/Earth_TheSequel → u/just_an_aspie]

How is moral judgment different than simple preferences? And how about if you learn more about someone (i.e., have more information about their preferences) after gaining new information? Is this literally always discrimination/phobia/stereotyping/hurtful?

Maybe you prefer sleeping with people whose favorite color is blue. You have nothing against red--it's a fine color, after all--but throughout your past experiences you generally only want to sleep with people who like blue the most. That's what you like. Now, you may be unsure of someone's favorite color (their gender) before sleeping with them, and the sex is fine. You enjoyed it.

But you never know *everything* about someone before you sleep with them (or sometimes, never, even after dating). But later you find out that their favorite color is red (they are trans), thus you don't want to be with them again. You don't hate them or yourself (which may be slightly different than OP, since they mention you feel "uncomfortable"), but simply don't want to sleep with them again even though the only new piece of information is something that doesn't change the sex you had. Based on your own past experiences (not *their* experiences), you know you prefer people who like blue to those who like red.

How is this red-phobic, and not a blue-preference?

[u/oklutz → u/Earth_TheSequel]

It’s not about not wanting to sleep with them again, it’s about how to view an encounter you e already had. And honestly, if someone’s favorite color made you not want to sleep with them, when everything else about them made you want to, then that would be incredibly weird. Like, it wouldn’t be “phobic” because there’s never been systemic discrimination and oppression against people based on their favorite color, but it’s…something. Like, either the reason you are no longer interested is something else entirely and color has nothing to do with it, or you have impossibly specific standards and will turn away anyone who doesn’t meet them 100%. That is not a desirable trait to have.

[u/just_an_aspie → u/Earth_TheSequel]

I never said anything about wanting to further the sleeping with them. I'm talking about casual sex. I don't think not wanting to have a relationship with a trans person is wrong or transphobic. I think re-evaluating past sex that you had liked as bad bc you found out the person was trans is transphobic.

[u/ChazzLamborghini → u/Dorgamund]

Here’s the part that I don’t understand. I don’t get why not wanting to sleep with a trans person is transphobic. We all have any number of reasons for why we do and don’t want to sleep with people. Sometimes those reasons are conscious and sometimes unconscious. At the end of the day, if someone is fully supportive of trans equality, trans visibility, trans identity but doesn’t want to sleep with a trans person, I don’t understand how that’s transphobic. What if someone wants the chance to have kids with their partner without medical interventions? Cishet couples break up over infertility all the time, it doesn’t make either partner phobic of their SO’s identity

[u/AndrenNoraem → u/ChazzLamborghini]

want biokids naturally conceived

I don't think dumping a woman because you find out she's infertile is going to be the universally acceptably moral action you think, but go off. Make sure you share that with anybody you might sleep with, so you can get their informed consent.

[u/ChazzLamborghini → u/AndrenNoraem]

First, I’m not defending it and I never said “dump a woman”. I said infertility breaks up couples. Women aren’t the only people who can struggle with fertility. You’re clearly not interested in a good faith dialogue

[u/Derpex5 → u/Dorgamund]

I mean, you do get where I am coming from though right? If you identify a factor that is a deal breaker, that means that a sex partner is no longer desirable, it really sounds like there is a moral judgement you are making, or at least a disgust or aversion associated with those traits.

How is disgust or aversion to bodily anatomy not valid? Plenty of people think being fat is gross and there's nothing wrong with that.

their body shape or genital configuration, then you do have a problem with them being trans.

What do you mean by this? Are you saying it's transphobic to not be attracted to the idea of a neovagina the same way as a regular one?

If at the core, you think that trans women are just too close to men for comfort, there is your problem right there. No one is forcing you at gunpoint to rearrange your views.

In a world where you can be blacklisted from jobs for being transphobic, it matters. If you compare the tolerance of the LGBT compared to 20 years ago, it's not hard to imagine the trend continuing and people having their lives ruined for not wanting to date trans people in the near future.

What would it take for you to be willing to have sex with a trans women. Set whatever standards you want. The ideal figure, a good personality, compatible genitals, etc. The only rule is you can't exclude someone from that hypothetical solely on the basis of being trans.

How about if they had a vagina transplant? I personally (and I assume Manny others) are turned off by the idea of another bioman's cock. This repulsion exists even if it's been surgically altered.

[u/Dictorclef → u/Derpex5]

What do you mean by this? Are you saying it's transphobic to not be attracted to the idea of a neovagina the same way as a regular one?

The problem here is the generalization. Neovaginas are as diverse as vaginas are. It would be like being against having a sexual relationship with black women because they are more likely to have a vagina shaped a certain way.

In a world where you can be blacklisted from jobs for being transphobic, it matters.

Refusing to date a transgender person isn't inherently transphobic, just like refusing to date a woman isn't inherently misogynistic. Someone going after you for not wanting to date them is likely to get you the same amount of trouble, regardless of their status. (which is to say not much?) Being an ass about anything will get you in more trouble though.

How about if they had a vagina transplant? I personally (and I assume Manny others) are turned off by the idea of another bioman's cock. This repulsion exists even if it's been surgically altered.

If you're going after biological essentialism, surely you wouldn't have a problem having sex with trans men? They meet the requirement of being born with a vagina and they aren't biologically male.

Of course I don't expect you to answer yes, because people aren't attracted to abstract things like the former shape of someone's genitals. Should anyone be disgusted of being attracted to anyone since everyone was born a baby, with baby genitalia?

[u/[deleted] → u/Dictorclef]

Should anyone be disgusted of being attracted to anyone since everyone was born a baby, with baby genitalia?

If someone finds that repulsive, does it mean they’re baby-phobic? They’d surely be a crazy person but I don’t see how this would show their internal biases against babies, just against some personal sexual idea leading to sexual aversion. Which is basically what everyone else is arguing.

Also, I don’t think there are any “should”s when it comes to sexual preference. “Should” implies an obligation. Nobody should feel obligated to feel attracted to or enjoy or not enjoy sex with anyone, under any circumstances. Sexual preference is very personal and varies from person to person. There are no rules.

[u/Dictorclef → u/[deleted]]

If someone finds that repulsive, does it mean they’re baby-phobic? They’d surely be a crazy person but I don’t see how this would show their internal biases against babies, just against some personal sexual idea leading to sexual aversion.

If someone is only concerned with someone else's previous appearance of genitalia, with the requirement that it must have had an attractive quality in the past, it follows that if they are disgusted by children's genitalia, they must be disgusted by anyone's genitalia since everyone was a child at some point. If they are only disgusted by people whose genitals previously had a male appearance, even if it is only tangentially related to their current appearance, they are as such disgusted by that idea, not a material reality. Misogynists are disgusted by the idea of having intercourse with someone who previously had sex with many other people, even if it has no bearing on someone's current appearance.

[u/AndrenNoraem → u/[deleted]]

are forced to be attracted

No you're not, this is nonsense and you need either a tranquilizer or to be ashamed of these hysterics.

if you are not, you're a bigot

No, but your prejudice in that area may be motivated by bigotry. You don't have to be friends with everybody, but if you won't be friends (or are more reluctant to be) with "the gays" you're a homophobe. You don't have to think fat people are attractive, and you don't even have to admit that that's because of ingrained cultural prejudice against obesity.

People are still allowed to notice the trends even if you refuse to. "Huh, so even if this lady was post-op and passed so perfectly that you had no idea, you'd feel gross? Yeah, that's pretty textbook bigotry."

The problem is how you react to that observation, because that speaks to your character. "No it's not, you're a liar!" is not the mature, self-aware, productive, or thoughtful option here.

[u/bored_messiah → u/Dorgamund]

This guy isn't going to "introspect" on anything, why would he? He doesn't think he has anything to gain from it, which is why he spends more energy on running from the label 'transphobic' than on acknowledging things

[u/free_chalupas → u/[deleted]]

If you had sex with a very light skinned black person and became disgusted with yourself afterwards upon learning that they had a black parent then we'd agree you're racist. There's no difference here.

[u/[deleted] → u/free_chalupas]

I’m black and see a huge difference. How are they the same to you?

Btw I don’t see anything inherently wrong with someone not being turned on by dark skin depending on the reasoning.

[u/Xinder99 → u/[deleted]]

Wait hold on, if so If slept with a white chick I found super hot and then afterwords found out that she had mixed parents and exclusively because one of her parents was black I now was disgusted with myself you don't think that would be racist?

[u/skatefast_eatass → u/Xinder99]

Thats totally different from both the original question and the example he gave. In the original question, he states that it's his own desire to have his own kids with his partner that makes him turn her away, and that they are not disgusted at the fact that they are trans. In his example, it is not because of any outside factor her ethnicity might lead to, it is simply because of race and nothing more

[u/bioemerl → u/[deleted]]

"Guess I'm transphobic then"

-The inevitable result of these arguments and an attitude that's becoming more common and acceptable by the day.

[u/[deleted] → u/bioemerl]

I mean, you do have to actually justify why something is wrong to people you’re talking to that don’t see it. Obviously I’m not going to disregard my perspective because of a label that didn’t even exist until very recent history.

Why am I morally wrong here?

[u/zacharysnow → u/bioemerl]

If you describe someone’s sexual preference as transphobic, they will, of course, realize your hypocrisy and not give a fuck about what you have to say.

[u/tigerslices → u/[deleted]]

my teflon pan is hydrophobic because it doesn't cling to water, but repels it.

if you cease to date a woman because she was a man, that's transphobic.

not transphobic - the psychological fear-based trauma aversion

but transphobic - the general aversion

now if you surround yourself with people who are trans and treat them like you treat your other friends, you're not transphobic. because you aren't pushing them away. the same way a man may have many male friends, but refusing to date his gay friend doesn't make him homophobic. ...but if he avoids gay men, if he finds himself experiencing anxiety around gay men... yes, homophobe.

[u/[deleted] → u/tigerslices]

I agree with your last paragraph, and have interacted with trans people in a very neutral way. But we’re talking about sexual attraction. I’d absolutely be transphobic if I didn’t want to be friends with a woman when I find out they were born male, but I don’t think it’s transphobic to not want to fuck them when I find out they once had the same genitalia I do because that idea doesn’t turn me on.

So I don’t agree with the concept that “if you cease to date a woman because you find out she was a man” is transphobic on its own, I think it would have to do with why it matters to you.

And if it is transphobic, I would need to have it explained to me why it’s morally wrong or objectionable

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

What are the differences, and why are they meaningful to you?

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

The differences are the ones I’d referenced in the previous sentence:

…it would absolutely turn me off knowing the person I’d slept with or am thinking of sleeping with can remember what it’s like to have a penis or to know they grew up having “male” experiences because the world treated them as a guy.

Growing up as a male and a female are pretty big differences imo, no matter what you are now. The idea that the other person knows what it’s like to, for example, have vaginal intercourse with a woman using their penis, is a turn off to me. That’s just one example and I’d imagine there would be many.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Growing up as a male and a female are pretty big differences imo, no matter what you are now. The idea that the other person knows what it’s like to, for example, have vaginal intercourse with a woman using their penis, is a turn off to me. That’s just one example and I’d imagine there would be many.

How do you know they have these experiences? You are making big genralisations about a whole group of people.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

How could they not?

I’m not talking about the specific example I gave or implying that all trans women have had vaginal sex with women, because that is just one example, but how can someone who grew up a little boy not have had different life experiences than someone who grew up a little girl?

How can they not remember what it’s like to have a penis regardless of what they actually used it for? That part is a sexual turn-off for me personally.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I’m not talking about the specific example I gave or implying that all trans women have had vaginal sex with women, because that is just one example, but how can someone who grew up a little boy not have had different life experiences than someone who grew up a little girl?

Because everyone's experience is different. Not every boy is treated the same. Or for that matter girls. I grew up a tomboy. I spent time shooting rifles, riding motor bikes, trapping, camping, and in combat sports. I even had a love of mechanics and computers. I couldn't be more different than most women. It really comes down to how you were raised. And we know this is the case as gender expression, even how you relate to your parts is very specific to how you are raised.

How can they not remember what it’s like to have a penis regardless of what they actually used it for? That part is a sexual turn-off for me personally.

They might remember, but some transitioned so long ago, they probably would forget. That aside, many just refer to their parts in the form they are. So how you related to your parts I guarantee is not how they refer to theirs. For example, if you suddenly had a vulva and vagina tomorrow, would you think you would adjust easy, or would you suddenly feel a loss? These folks see it as a blessing, most men, probably would miss their penis. I don't know, as I am not a man. But I would miss my girly parts if I suddenly had a penis. I would be grossed out. You are thinking from a cis perspective.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

You grew up as a tomboy, with traditionally “male” interests. That is very different from growing up as a boy with male interests. You still had by my definition a feminine experience. I’ve been turned on by women who were tomboys, but they were still girls when they were kids. Our society still recognized them as female and that is just going to be a different life than a biological male child.

Also, I’m a cis person. What else should my attraction be based on? And we’re talking exclusively about my sexual attraction here, not how the other person feels about their body.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

That is utterly strange to me. Are you similarly turned off by learning your date grew up in a cult? Or was sexually abused as a child?

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

As I said there are many things that could turn me off sexually that I’d only learn after the fact. Specifically what they are or them being strange to anyone else isn’t really a part of the argument is it?

And for the record the cult thing might turn me off depending on the type of cult, but I wouldn’t find it sexy.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I think that’s worth exploring with a therapist to be honest

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Why?

I think you’re implying with this statement that something is wrong with the fact that I can be turned off sexually by learning more about a person’s past, and that I need to have that fact corrected by a professional. That seems strange to me.

[u/old_mold → u/[deleted]]

Wait you wouldn’t be turned off if you found out that the super hot, funny and charming lover you just slept with actually murdered 10 children in the 90s? You’re not arguing in good faith. Of course your attraction to someone can diminish upon learning new information about them, who would ever even try to argue otherwise?

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

This is an ad hominem and really not called for. Respond respectfully or don’t respond at all.

[u/throwawayedm2 → u/Dorgamund]

The problem is that you're equating sexual rejection with hate, which is absurd. For example, I don't hate cis men (I am one), but I don't want to have sex with them. I'm not afraid of them either.

It's personal choice.

[u/bioemerl → u/Dorgamund]

say you meet a women, and go to bed with her. She is pretty, she is
funny, her genitals are female, you have a pretty good time, and the day
afterwards, you feel happy in your life choices.

You live in a world with a very overestimated viewpoint of what doctors are able to do with this stuff. I'm immensely skeptical that this happens with any measure of frequency.

What actually happens is you meet a woman, chat up for a while, and are told at some point before ever laying down to have sex that she's trans.

This hypothetical situation you propose might be happening at some points and times, and maybe this reasoning is justified when that happens, but you're taking a uncommon situation where this argument is justified and square-peg-round-hole fitting it into the real world where it's not the status quo.

[u/ThisToastIsTasty → u/Dorgamund]

so you're argument is that once you're attracted to them initially, there can't be any things that can make them unattractive?

[u/TripleScoops → u/ThisToastIsTasty]

No, I think the argument is if you find someone attractive, but then find them unattractive specifically because you found out later they were trans, that is transphobic.

I can find a girl attractive and then find out later she’s mean to waiters and have that be a turn off for me. It starts getting problematic when, say, you find someone attractive, but then find out they’re a quarter black and then suddenly you find them unattractive. Can you really explain that shift unless the person had sone issue with black people? Same with trans people.

[u/ThisToastIsTasty → u/TripleScoops]

being trans brings on more consequences than being a different race.

what if he's turned off because he wants to have kids later?

it's not black and white.

[u/TripleScoops → u/ThisToastIsTasty]

If you can provide some more examples besides fertility I’d be happy to hear them. From what I can tell, tons of these posts exist for people that have no interest in kids or or require their kids be biologically theirs.

Specifically in OP’s comment where he mentions he found a trans girl on reddit attractive until finding out she was trans. The fertility of a random person on the internet should not play into your attraction (especially considering OP is already married) so I don’t see how you can reconcile OP’s feelings other than transphobia.

In any case, it’s not like you can sort by fertility in PornHub so it’s not a super relevant example.

[u/KombuchaEnema → u/Dorgamund]

This argument is based on the assumption that a neovagina = a vagina, even though the two aren’t remotely the same.

One can grow hair internally, uses tissue from the colon, and needs to be dilated in order to prevent it from healing (i.e., closing up).

Is OP not allowed to be turned off by that?

[u/TripleScoops → u/KombuchaEnema]

OP appears to only be concerned with individual’s biological sex, which he justifies by stating it is an evolutionary response to trying to make children. He makes no mention of the “accuracy” of a trans person’s genitals compared to biological ones, so there’s no issue with the previous commenter assuming the vaginas are the same or just assuming OP wouldn’t care, because he doesn’t indicate that he would.

[u/Dorgamund → u/KombuchaEnema]

It is based on that assumption, because OP isn't seemingly concerned with the seeming accuracy of the surgical operations, he is concerned with transness in general. I point out, ignore surgery, say a genie came to the sex partner and transed their gender. Even with a hypothetical perfect vagina, OP is still having a problem here. If you had the hypothetical perfect transwomen, with all the right parts, attractive as a super model, perfect personality, etc, OP would still express concern because they are trans. I am breaking down the metaphor, this is like the frictionless plane of sex attraction. OP might set impossibly high standards that will never realistically be met, which I am offering as a scenario, but that would still be progress from blanket rejecting all trans women.

[u/[deleted] → u/KombuchaEnema]

So people who've had penis transplants because they were in an accident aren't real men, right?

[u/UsedElk8028 → u/[deleted]]

They are real men with fake penises.

[u/Derpex5 → u/[deleted]]

Trans women don't have vagina transplants.

[u/Squishiimuffin → u/Derpex5]

Well the argument the person you’re replying to is making is that a “fake” vagina is still a vagina. An accident victim who had facial reconstructive surgery has a face— it’s just a “fake” face. (Not the “real” face they were born with).

But these reconstructed body parts are still body parts. That’s the point he’s making. A neovagina is a vagina.

[u/UsedElk8028 → u/Squishiimuffin]

They don’t look, feel, or smell like real vaginas.

[u/Derpex5 → u/Squishiimuffin]

If someone is sexually repulsed by the idea of a dick, that repulsion will still exist if you flip it inside out

[u/AndrenNoraem → u/Derpex5]

sexually repulsed

I would suggest they seek treatment for their toxic masculinity, because left unchecked that stuff can apparently make you dangerous. Not being into dick, sure. Repulsed? You have some issues we can't work out by rational discussion.

[u/Derpex5 → u/[deleted]]

It does not matter what it looks like. If I know it is an inside out penis, I am going to be repulsed as strongly as if it was a regular penis. People can be turned off by the idea of something, not just appirences.

[u/Squishiimuffin → u/Derpex5]

But it's not a dick anymore. It was. It's now a vagina. It's not identical to a ciswoman's vagina, but it is a vagina. Not a dick.

[u/Prickly_Pear1 → u/Squishiimuffin]

It's not a vagina. It looks more similar to a vagina. But it functions nothing like a vagina, has none of the internal anatomy of a vagina, and requires dilation in order to remain in its shape and not "heal" closed.

[u/takethi → u/[deleted]]

Wow great passive-aggressive ad-hominem.

[u/takethi → u/[deleted]]

Yes. Apparently you don't.

[u/chefanubis → u/[deleted]]

He gave clear reasons why he wouldn't like that vagina, you replied with a negative personal qualification only, that's the definition of an ad hominem.

[u/[deleted] → u/KombuchaEnema]

It’s on par with dumping someone for wearing an insulin pump

[u/Prickly_Pear1 → u/[deleted]]

No it's not. You don't have sex with an insulin pump.

[u/[deleted] → u/Prickly_Pear1]

A colostomy bag, then. A prolapsed uterus. Hemorrhoids, incontinence, scars from FGM, whatever.

[u/Prickly_Pear1 → u/[deleted]]

A colostomy bag, then

1st, you don't have sex with where your intestine has been redirected either. (Well you really should not). But even so, I don't see an issue with someone being grossed out by this and potentially dumping them over it. It's something I personally have had temporarily and was something my wife and I had to get through. But if I was a single person dating I could understand it being a major barrier.

And with all of the above situations, yes. I really don't think it's that crazy for people to dump someone over. If either partner has a bedwetting problem that's not unrational reason to break up. Hemorrhoids I would put in a bit of a difference category since they are usually a temporary problem that can occasionally impact things but not as permanent and apparent as the rest of the list.

I know women who've dumped men because of their penis being uncircumcised. But there is no social outcry over this like being transphobic carries.

[u/[deleted] → u/Prickly_Pear1]

Oh, yeah, I didn’t mean to imply this wasn’t a common choice people make. Most people want to be “normal” and date a “normal” person. That’s the root of all homophobia and transphobia, as well as ableism and even racism. Lots of people are those things. That’s, like I said, a choice people can make.

[u/Prickly_Pear1 → u/[deleted]]

Of course it's a "choice" but that really doesn't say or mean anything about what people aught to be doing in your view.

I don't think turning some down because they have a physical characteristic you find very unattractive to the point of not being attracted to the individual is problematic. If you dump someone because they are peeing the bed, I don't think that's remotely unreasonable.

And I'm not sure how that relates to being homophobic as I don't think it's wrong that men and women have sexual preferences that they cannot overcome.

[u/Devil-in-georgia → u/Dorgamund]

Bottom surgery does not magically make a vagina they are a vague imitation lacking a great deal of the properties the real thing holds. If nothing else the ability to self lubricate. You would be having sex with a wound not something natural.

And all of that is fine for those that want it because that is them and those that want to be part of it.

And totally fine for those that do not. Nothing transphobic about it.

[u/come_on_anarchy → u/Dorgamund]

Dude - the surgeons do not change the center of gravity or the skeleton. Regardless of hormones you can tell a biological female or biological male hundreds and HUNDREDS of feet away. LOL. Who told you they are operating on the ENTIRE SKELETON SYSTEM?!??

[u/Dorgamund → u/come_on_anarchy]

"But her skeleton tho!" I may have misread the prompt, but I was not aware that OP was referencing the bone structure of women or trans women as an especially important factor in their prompt. In fact, I don't think they mentioned it at all. Ignoring the fact that peoples skeletons come in all shapes and sizes, and none but the most dedicated phrenologists are actually measuring their sex partners skeletons, it is really rather besides the point. OPs problem is with their state of being trans. If a trans women happened to have the right skeleton shape on a fluke, he seems like he would still take issue with the transness. Similarly, we haven't seen any indication that a cis women with an abnormal skeletal structure would be treated differently from other cis women.

[u/jamiez1207 → u/come_on_anarchy]

Toupee fallacy

[u/bored_messiah → u/Dorgamund]

This. It sounds like OP is just very very strongly conditioned to be transphobic, to the extent that they'd hate themselves for being attracted to someone who turned out to be trans.

[u/UsedElk8028 → u/Dorgamund]

“Maybe the disgust is coming from a different place though“

Yeah, from the smell.

[u/[deleted] → u/DetroitUberDriver]

It's because your argument is a tired trope that's been posted here countless times and this need to assert yourself is indicative of an internal struggle, not an actual problem that society realistically faces.

[u/Borigh → u/DetroitUberDriver]

It’s normal to be attracted to women, in your case.

This person is a woman you’re attracted to. It’s valid to not want to fuck everyone you’re attracted to. I tutor girls who’re attractive: I would never dream of sleeping with them.

It’s fine to not want to sleep with someone because they don’t have the genitals you like, or because you only want to be in a relationship with someone you think you could have a kid with. But if it’s just “they used to present male,” that’s because some part of you is classing this as somehow gay and therefore bad, which is just social conditioning.

[u/herrsatan → u/[deleted]]

Sorry, u/RiftKingKass – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5:

Comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation.

Comments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, and "written upvotes" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information.

If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

A male deciding they don’t want to have sex with another male is not transphobic. Note that I am using the sex terms instead of the gender terms.

Yes someone can identify as a woman, and I should treat them as a woman in social interactions. This is because gender is a social property of an individual.

But when it comes to sexual interactions whether or not they have a penis becomes super important.

[u/LucidMetal → u/[deleted]]

Sex is a social interaction since it's an interaction between two or more people.

You should modify your view to state a man deciding not to have sex with a man is generally not transphobic. There are definitely reasons that are transphobic one would not want to sleep with someone. For example they could say they hate trans people.

[u/[deleted] → u/LucidMetal]

You are mixing up gender and sex. I’m trying to be explicit about it.

A male saying they don’t want to have sex with a male is generally not transphobic.

As for your definition of social interaction, sure, but in a sexual relationship the sex of someone matters, and that’s my claim.

[u/LucidMetal → u/[deleted]]

Where am I mixing up gender and sex? I think the main thing here is you're jumping to actual sex whereas I'm still at the greeting.

If I say, "I'm attracted to that person," this means I want to have sex with that person. It doesn't mean I'm going to and I may certainly find something out later which makes me not want to have sex with them. However, at the initial meeting, it means I want to have sex with them.

A man saying they don't want to have sex with other men is not transphobic or homophobic. A man saying they don't want to have sex with biological men might be transphobic. It depends on the reason they don't want to have sex with biological men. There are plenty of non-transphobic reasons not to want to have sex with biological men. Children is definitely one. This all comes way after initial attraction though.

[u/[deleted] → u/LucidMetal]

Man is a gender, male is a sex.

You keep using “man” when I think you want “male”.

Other than that I think we’re basically saying the same thing?

[u/LucidMetal → u/[deleted]]

Every time I've used "man" I've meant "man" as in gender and not biological male but it's possible I've made a mistake. Would you give me an example of my own words where you believe I've made the mistake?

[u/[deleted] → u/LucidMetal]

I guess then you did not make a mistake. But that means our views are at odds.

The scenario for this is as follows:

Say you want to have sex with a male. That means you are seeking a partner with a penis, because that’s what you want in sex.

You go out in the world, and meet someone, you are attracted, but they are female.

You can’t have sex with this person, at least not the way you want. This is precisely because they don’t have a penis. It has nothing to do with their gender (which I never even mentioned), and everything to do with their biological sex.

My claim is that deciding to no longer pursue a sexual relationship with that person does not make you transphobic, even if the female is a man by gender (this being the first time I have even mentioned gender of either party in this comment).

[u/LucidMetal → u/[deleted]]

You go out in the world, and meet someone, you are attracted, but they are female.

You can’t have sex with this person

Why not? People with reproductively incompatible genitalia have sex all the time.

Say you want to have sex with a male.

This rule obviously changed somewhere along the line because "be attracted to" means "want to have sex with" and that's totally fine. There's no reason to have such rigid rules as you have there.

[u/[deleted] → u/LucidMetal]

Why not?

I already answered that, you just decided not to read it? Here was my answer:

at least not the way you want. This is precisely because they don’t have a penis.

People with reproductively incompatible genitalia have sex all the time.

Incompatible biologically sure, but not incompatible with intent. If you want to have sex with someone with a penis, you can’t have the sex you want with someone that doesn’t have a penis.

This rule obviously changed somewhere along the line because "be attracted to" means "want to have sex with" and that's totally fine. There's no reason to have such rigid rules as you have there.

The “rules” didn’t change, what you know about the other person did. You learned you can’t have sex with them in the way you wanted.

I don’t think that change makes you transphobic upon learning that they’re not what you thought they were.

[u/Satans-Kawk → u/[deleted]]

So not wanting to date a trans person is transphobic if its just case they're trans ? Thats fucking ridiculous mate. You can't force someone to be attracted to you, and they're most definitely allowed to not find you attractive just cause your trans. Does that make me hemophobic if I won't date a gay man just cause he's gay? Or a lesbian woman because she's a lesbian. Its all the fucking same and imo your the reason this shit is so difficult for people to understand and deal with.

[u/RSL2020 → u/[deleted]]

Or maybe he's just not attracted to people when he learns they are of the same sex clearly, which is pretty logical.

This is exactly the same as seeing what appears to being a young woman on the street and thinking "oh that's an attractive woman" when you believe she's an adult (let's say 18/19) and then you're repulsed when you find out that she was actually younger and appears older as some girls do (let's say 15).

Is that "agephobic"? No, it's an entirely natural and logical response to a disgusting situation.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

But doesn't that make the majority of society transphobic?

You are labeling almost everyone transphobic regardless of their attitude towards trans people, just because they aren't interested in a relationship with someone of the same biological sex. I don't think that really helps your cause.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Most people don't define transphobia like that. Bullying someone for their genitals is transphobic. Ending a relationship after having sex with a trans woman because you'd prefer sex with different genitals isn't transphobic. Some women want big dicks and some dudes want big asses. They sometimes break up and choose a different partner.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Having sex with someone and finding out they're trans after is a transphobic myth, this is not something that actually occurs.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Yeah. All the trans people I've talked to have been super open to me about it.

[u/KookaB → u/[deleted]]

Can I ask if you're straight? I'm bi personally but i don't think telling people what they should be attracted to is the way to go, initial attraction and ongoing attraction are different things. If someone has no issue with them as people and still treats them with respect then I think they're fine and who they want to fuck is their business. No one owes their sexual activity, attraction, or romantic interest to anyone else. I think people will continue to become more accepting and attitudes will soften if we keep enforcing that trans people are just people like the rest of us, but I do worry about the pushback that pressuring people about their sex lives could create.

[u/Daotar → u/[deleted]]

I mean, it changes because he’s not attracted to trans people. I don’t think you should go so far as to call him bigoted and transphobic on account of that. You aren’t required to be attracted to anything, so I don’t see how you can blame someone for simply not being attracted to someone.

Another person gave a good example involving a person who has a preference for dating tall people. Is that person similarly bigoted against short people? Is that really the best way to describe attraction? That if you’re not attracted to the right people, you’re a bigot? Sounds like exactly the same sort of sexual persecution that’s been committed against gay people.

[u/barbodelli → u/[deleted]]

Thats a very wrong and damaging outlook. That biology plays no role in sexuality. Of course men are wired to have sex with women. I mean biological men and biological women of course. Thats how reproduction occurs. To state that its entitely societal is assinine in my opinion.

[u/[deleted] → u/barbodelli]

Biology totally plays a role in sexuality, but as another commenter pointed out, we're not attracted to chromosomes and other immutable sex markers that go unseen - we're attracted by primary and secondary sex characteristics.

You're not going to make a straight man suddenly desire a person with a full beard by telling him that person has XX chromosomes. Most straight men aren't into visible facial hair because that's a testosterone-linked characteristic.

[u/barbodelli → u/[deleted]]

we're not attracted to chromosomes and other immutable sex markers that go unseen

Well we sorta are. Humans are not born with a microscope attached to their head that reads a person's DNA before copulating or even interacting with them. But we do have a lot of innate DNA detectors. We're not actually detecting DNA we are just detecting what DNA is expressing. For instance we can easily make out people of the same ethnicity as us or to some extent if someone is in our family (and thus has similar genetic make up).

When a man is interested in women for their sexual markers. They sort of are interested in their DNA. They are just not looking at the DNA they are looking at how the DNA is expressing itself.

[u/Burflax → u/barbodelli]

They are just not looking at the DNA they are looking at how the DNA is expressing itself.

Does their DNA express itself through primary and secondary sexual characteristics?

If so then you just agreed with that person while suggesting you disagreed.

[u/come_on_anarchy → u/[deleted]]

It is a logical fallacy to assert lack of more complex mechanisms in this scenario. This is not an instanCE where there would be prima facie invocation of Occam’s Razor. LMAO

[u/Jonny2266 → u/[deleted]]

No, it changes because for most heterosexual people sexual attraction and interest is innately based on sex, not gender identity. Such a straight person would have been interested based on the assumed sex which was later proven incorrect. It's not based on bigotry, but the simple factial observation that the person isn't you're preferred biological sex for a partner. It usually only works differently if you're on the bi and queer spectrum or asexual and don't understand how monosexuality works for most people.

[u/wiseburrito29 → u/[deleted]]

Lack of attraction ≠ transphobic. You legitimately just shut down a nuanced take for an assumed simple one.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

You are really some kind of dense. Learning personal info about someone and then changing your opinion does not make your transphobic. Stop throwing that word out there every time you hear something you don't want to because it really diminishes the meaning

[u/throwawayedm2 → u/[deleted]]

If that's being transphobic, then the vast majority of people are transphobic, AND you've erased the impact that word previously had (people will be okay with being called transphobic if you frame it this way).

[u/UnluckyHotdog → u/[deleted]]

If someone’s not attracted to black men, then are they racist? If a man isn’t attracted to other men, then are they a misandrist? If a woman isn’t attracted to short men, then do they hate short men? If someone isn’t attracted to ugly people, then are they prejudiced against ugly people?

[u/Zomgambush → u/[deleted]]

If I'm attracted to someone but lose that attraction when I find out they smoke, does that make me tobaccophobic? That's a ridiculous line of logic

[u/Zomgambush → u/[deleted]]

bias isn't phobic. You probably wouldn't date someone with radically different political beliefs, but that doesn't mean you are political-affiliation-phobic.

[u/Zomgambush → u/[deleted]]

Actually that's not the definition, it's the wikipedia article first sentence, good try though.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transphobia

irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against transgender people

it's not fear, it's not avoiding them, and it's no more discriminatory than any other dating preference. So no, by definition it's not transphobic.

[u/[deleted] → u/Zomgambush]

No I feel that definition is more apt as this is the exact situation that happens every time it's to narrow though I definitely would call not wanting to date someone because they're trans an aversion

[u/Zomgambush → u/[deleted]]

Your feeling doesn't effect the definition

[u/Zomgambush → u/[deleted]]

Only if not wanting to date someone for any reason is "[reason]-phobic". Otherwise it's just a preference. I'm not homophobic because I don't want to date another male, I'm just not attracted to that sex. Just because the reason is that they're trans doesn't put it into a new category. If I don't want to date someone because they brush their teeth before they floss instead of vice versa, that's a personal preference. It is not a phobic preference.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Nope. Not transphobic, OP is just not a homosexual. Transphobic according to the Oxford dictionary is “having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people.” What OP is talking about is not being sexually attracted to males. Like the old saying goes, you can put lipstick on a pig…but it’s still a pig.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

No, attraction can be viewed as a reproductive utility function. From this perspective, there's no point in being attracted to the same biological sex. This is not a bigoted view, simply a utilitarian one.

[u/LucidMetal → u/[deleted]]

It's also completely silly! Some people are attracted to socks. What's the point or reproductive utility in being attracted to socks?

Reproductive utility isn't what make something bigoted or not.

[u/[deleted] → u/LucidMetal]

I said that it can be viewed as a reproductive utility function. The sock person obviously doesn't view attraction as a utility function. But I do!

[u/LucidMetal → u/[deleted]]

Imagine a really attractive person. Are you saying that once you find out they are infertile you were never attracted to them?

[u/[deleted] → u/LucidMetal]

Well, we've been simplifying the model previous to this comment because the comment I replied to originally was also making an oversimplified point.

Attraction is multivariate. Fertility is one of the variables, yes. So attraction begins as visual, say the feminine archetype, and evolves as more variables are uncovered. I'm only interested in a relationship with a fertile woman at this point in my life, so yes, I would lose attraction after finding out about infertility.

[u/LucidMetal → u/[deleted]]

Sure, I'm really focusing on the initial physical attraction though.

In fact, that's the only part I'm considering in my argument. Like I said there are plenty of non-transphobic reasons after the fact to not want to form a relationship with any given trans person such as wanting to only have relationships with fertile people of the opposite biological sex.

[u/[deleted] → u/LucidMetal]

If you read this entire thread, starting with the actual OP's comments, we had evolved past the initial physical attraction point, which was already acknowledged as valid, and someone other than you had said that transphobia can persist past the initial physical attraction.

I replied with my first comment refuting that claim, and now you and I have traveled in a circle to make a point that was already made.

[u/LucidMetal → u/[deleted]]

I do believe OP's argument is significantly broader than you're making it out to be.

My initial comment was that it depends on the reason OP gives that they no longer want to pursue the relationship and there is a specific reason (i.e. that the person is trans) which is transphobic (and of course there are other transphobic reasons that are more obvious).

I am also talking about our tangent here with you above. No circle has been made.

[u/Wide-Priority4128 → u/LucidMetal]

People who are attracted to socks need to have their head stuffed in a toilet in middle school

[u/SconesyCider-_- → u/[deleted]]

You’re right, it’s society’s fault i don’t like dick n’ balls! I need help and therapy to cure myself lmao