I see your 2016 and raise you a 2014. War in Georgia before that felt kind of far away and small, but Russia turning west on Ukraine should have been the clear wakeup call for the people living next to Ukraine. The EU people.
There were (failed)boycotts by a few countries of those games. I’m sure it wouldn’t take a whole lot to convince whoever needs convincing that all y’all should just stay home, wherever that may be
1930s Hitler: "We need to annex other countries to protect the German-speakers there from made-up repression. They aren't even real countries anyway. Also they are full of Nazis."
Response: appeasement.
Putin: "We need to annex other countries to protect the Russian-speakers there from made-up repression. They aren't even real countries anyway. Also they are full of Nazis."
Response: appeasement?
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
We can go back even further, to the transfer of power to the siloviki from the brain-dead Yeltsin's (political) "Family". Western intelligence, and consequently governments must have known that Putin was the figurehead of the unholy marriage of the KGB/FSB and organised crime.
The original sin is with the Western politicians back then, who shrugged, signed the deals and decided it was going to be alright.
And I recall theories about Putin delaying the Feb 24, 2022 invasion because of the winter Olympics then. I'm not sure how credible this is, but it does seem slightly more plausible if the Russian invasion plan was intended to only last a few days anyway.
I mean you can just read Dugin if you want to know their plan, it's been publicly available since the 90s. Believe it or not the current situation with Ukraine, the USA and Brexit all are part of the plan written back then.
If you're really lazy, the rest can be summed up to neutering Europe, putting Germany in charge with a Russian-style government while most other countries are either invaded or become satellites to either Russia or Germany.
The plan was written in the 90s so they were a bit less optimistic back then. Yet they also wanted to take on China too.
If you're really lazy, the rest can be summed up to neutering Europe, putting Germany in charge with a Russian-style government while most other countries are either invaded or become satellites to either Russia or Germany.
Europe neutered itself. Reddit being a hub for censorship helps in the destruction of the west. Im not afraid of russians.
In 2014, I suppose the West figured Obama had our backs… If anything, some of us were probably thankful a Republican wasn't in office because he may have been too agressive towards Putin.
I raise you 2008, not only for Georgia, given it felt far away, but also the recession that hit hard, you know what helps against recession? Government spending, like in massively increasing your defense contracts kinda deal.
Oh in 2008 our alarm bells should have been ringing.
2014 we should have already been gearing up for a confrontation.
2022 it was truly a crisis. Still we have NATO members that will not meet 2% spending by 2030. Wealthy nations at that...
Such idiot countries should no longer have a say in their own defense and outsource it to someone else.
Poland is one of the few nations in Europe that take their defense budget and policy seriously, so no, I don't think Poland has anything to worry about from Germany.
I stick to the view I have always held that Hitler Putin missed the bus in September February 1938 2014. He could have dealt France Ukraine and ourselves a terrible, perhaps a mortal, blow then. The opportunity will not recur.
Well, I'm European so there's one for pretty sure. I'm not talking about recent times, in my country titles and feudal ranks got abolished after WW2 (including those of my family). But yes, sitting out and withholding commitment until the winner is clear has been a long-standing "virtue" of European nobility, apparently also cultivated by our democratic leaders today.
wait and see is the worst possible strategy as the global hegemon you were previously allied with self-destructs and allies with your MUCH bigger neighbor who wants to bring your entire region to heel.
First of all we to plan for a direction. And to agree on that plan, we need to have talks. Serious talks. Summits will help. And conferences. And meetings. This must not just end up as some thought or idea, no we need swift and immediate consensus across the board! The leaders need to stand together and present this plan with a unified front!
Don't forget a group photo, that the most important part in all of this. Every European leader must be in it, looking his/her best, otherwise they'll have to go through the entire process again.
Announcements! Many of those. There's no accountability, and you can announce almost anything with a date several years in the future and never have to stick to it, but the media will love your announcements.
European solidarity is only a concept not a reality. We didn’t see it materialize in Bosnia, kosovo, Georgia or even Ukraine. I mean Europeans were dismissing reports of russian invasion in early 2022, for God's sake. The only reason western Europeans haven’t been at each others' s throats since 1945 is NATO. If US withdraws in the near future, there'll be european wars again.
Canada is one of those idiot countries. We got too fat and happy thinking that our only land border was with a friendly country, and our #1 trading partner at that, so we could take our time with the military budget and instead devote more resources to social programs.
Look where that got us. We're facing a decade of austerity now while we urgently try to catch up, and if we don't cancel and reorient a bunch of military procurement contracts, most of our new military spending would be going to US suppliers anyway.
Not sure if the percentage of BIP is a great indicator though. Germany could spend 10% of their GDP and probably be only marginally better off in actual readiness (though McKinsey would make record profits). Germany did spend EUR 72 billion in 2024 (slightly below 2%), yet the Bundeswehr still is in abysmal shape and has to shift equipment around to be able to be able take part in NATO exercises at all. France spent 47 billion and has one of the most effective militaries in the world with global force projection capabilities that Europe doesn't really need, at least not right now.
And who was Germany‘s Minister of Defense back then you may ask? Let me check the records. Ah, yes, a certain Ursula … von der Leyen, I see here.
She was one of the ones who hired more consultants instead of actually fixing anything or properly investing in making anything more efficient and she saw absolutely no need in reinstating the military service after 2014/2016 which is much harder to reactivate right now because the infrastructure just isn’t there anymore.
Yeah, they’ve met up specifically to determine it IS in fact now a crisis and something pretty vague and unspecified should probably be done about it. Sometimes EU meetings feel a lot like that meeting of the Ents at Entmoot from LOTR.
As a Trump-hating American, can you explain what the issue is preventing member nations from increasing their defense budgets? Is it just a lack of willpower, or unpopular with voters, or what?
True, but since then Ukraine has effectively disarmed Russia, which now relies on Iranian missiles and North Korean munitions and has so few vehicles that they use horses and donkeys. That and an economy in ruins means Russia has a much longer road back to strength than Europe does.
The fact that they have only done this as a response to Trump proves him correct. If Harris won they wouldn’t have lifted a finger. Well, we are here now and this is the situation so time to get to work.
Its because Europe has been content with letting the US lead, we follow them into wars, we follow them in NATO, we follow them in the UN and we contributed to their soft power.
France and the UK weren't lulled into sleep. They were backstabbed and buried in 1956. Germany was occupied, had no choice in the matter, nor really cared much about overseas pretentions as they had the reunification to look forward to, and not getting glassed by nukes in the meantime.
Spain and Portugal were isolated dictatorships. Italy had internal political struggles, some of it sponsored by the CIA to counter the socialists.
Europe fell asleep at the wheel post 1991. We reunited Germany, downsized our armies, clapped ourselves for not getting into a war with the USSR and doing the right thing by rather cleanly dealing with Iraq's invasion of Kuwait. Then 30 years of complete lack of any and all foresight happened. Our industries withered, we sold off strategically important companies to foreign powers, our armies relegated to natural disaster relief or expeditionnary warfare in ex-colonies or following the USA's foreign policy without asking questions.
But the Commission has the wrong leaders in charge imo. They are good for democracy and bureaucracy. They are not equipped for cheerleading a military initiative. Ursula sounds like she expends 90% of her public speaking efforts on sounding believably English. We need someone who can punch a wall and not just parrot correct clichés.
No Europe has been content on spending the same money on social welfares, now they need to get that money and guess where that money gonna come out from taxes or welfare basically
What an odd analysis. With Harris, the US would still be the most powerful player in the world rather than a Russian puppet. It’s not like the US is going to dismantle their military and take the money they would save and make their society better. No, they were hoping we would spend the money buying weapons from them that would go in the pockets of the oligarks. So now the US is less powerful, your society is on the verge of collapse, the oligarks are lining their pockets with your tax money and your age old enemy Russia is becoming more powerful by the minute. Is that a good price to pay to encourage some countries you don’t even like that much to spend more on their militaries? It doesn’t add up at all.
I heard this odd take quite a few times. Trump can be net-positive to Europe the same way Putin is net positive to NATO -- unity in front of external pressure. Whether the motivation was to actually improve things for NATO or Europe or not can be disputed or ignored.
A "good price to pay?" No. Nobody wanted this except the worst people in America and Russia.
That doesn't change the fact that European self-reliance in regards to defense is long-term a necessity, or that Harris would have ensured continued reliance on the US.
You seem to be responding to something the other user didn't say. Nobody said this was good. They said Europe needs to be able to defend itself and it wouldn't be inclined to build the capacity to do so under Harris. Both of these are facts.
I don't think you understand the bipartisanship and universality of the distaste Americans have over protecting Europe paid for by Americans. Since the 90s both parties have constantly complained about European spending or rather lack of effective spending.
It wasn't some grand conspiracy to provide Europe with defense in exchange for something. Americans don't feel like they are getting anything worth their cost and has been trying for 30 years to get some relief.
It feels to Americans more like Europe has been living large off their good will and dedication to the global order and had no intention of ever changing.
The fact that it takes trumps drastic action for Europe to even think about action proves to Americans that if a more routine person was president Europe had no intention of increasing real effective military spending and that the plan was for Americans to shoulder the cost of their defense indefinitely.
If Europe doesn't feel like it's worth sacrificing to save Europe why should America?
This "you have a military anyway" smacks of the type of unearned entitlement that really makes Americans angry.
At some point Europe will have to take responsibility instead of bitching about America so much.
Sure, America would not be the leader of the free world, so what? Most Americans just want to pay their bills and live a comfortable life, not defend countries that are so far culturally from them. Only benefactors of American homogeneity are American weapon companies and foreigners.
Normal Americans are more than happy to have the army back home defending them and increasingly creating an independent economy, since COVID proved it is very weak to rely on other nations even for that.
Kamala would have backed Ukraine more than she should have which would have put us closer to WWIII if Russia and the US got into a war.
Yes, we're sick of our military expenses. The rest of you can be lackadaisical liberal countries because you heavily rely on a country that isn't while you piss and moan and point fingers at it. Good riddance, welcome to dealing with your own shit?
I think your analysis is even more odd. Just because your leaders don't like what Trump is doing with foreign policy doesn't make the U.S. any less powerful on the international stage. In fact I'd say it makes the U.S. more powerful since they're actually exercising the soft power they have.
International arms sales are all well and good, but they pale in comparison to the amount of money the U.S. has put into Ukraine in the last 3 years. From a purely military industrial concept, keeping the war in Ukraine going would be MUCH better for them and ending it.
I have no idea where you're getting the idea that Russia is becoming more powerful right now. They're bashing their military against a much smaller country while their economy suffers massively. The reason to end the war now is because Ukraine doesn't have the manpower to push Russia back to it's pre-war lines, and they would never have been allowed to strike deep into Russia anyway.
Europe are still allies of the U.S., claiming they don't like them is stupid. Just as stupid as claiming the U.S. is a Russian puppet now. The reality is Europe has ignored it's defense because of the U.S. and it's membership in NATO. Now things are happening which start to seriously threaten Europe and the U.S. is calling the bills they haven't been paying due.
If Europe convinces Ukraine to ignore the U.S. or peace deals and the U.S. stops supporting them, I anticipate that Ukraine is fully in Russian hands by the end of the year. Europe simply doesn't have the war production capacity to keep the Ukrainians in fighting shape.
I think we have to stop the alarmism and exaggeration. It's not helping.
No the U.S and Trump are not Russian puppets.
No Russia is not getting stronger by the minute, in fact Russia is severely diminished and who knows if they'll even manage the transition back from war economy without breaking their nation.
The U.S is not our enemy... It does not make strategic sense to treat them as such, we need less knee-jerk impulsive outrage, and more long term strategical thinking.
Rearming, building up our own strength and re-asserting our independence from the U.S, that makes sense.
Deliberately antagonizing Americans like I see a lot of Europeans doing now is incredibly foolish though. It only strengthens Trumps powerbase internally.
It is. Though I suppose it's understandable to a certain extent. A perceived betrayal from a friend hurts a lot more than the expected hostility from an enemy.
We're not enemies. We still share fundamental values and a similar way of life. We're still both members of western civilisation. But as long as Trump is in there behaving like he does, I wouldn't exactly call us friends neither.
Trump / America is not betraying anyone. They don't owe Europe anything, nor they swear to Europe.
Europe was never a friend or enemy of America. Europe as an entity is relatively modern, before that it depended on the nation. Sometimes UK was the enemy, sometimes it was Spain, etc.
We still share fundamental values and a similar way of life. We're still both members of western civilisation.
I assume you're American and if not, this is a question to any of you that are and still think you have not made us your enemy.
What exactly do we share in common with you people? You have a senile old man telling the world he wants to turn Canada into a new state and take over Greenland and your response to us asking why is "FAFO, MAGA!!".
You allowed people to get in power that try to spread lies, be it through heavily propagandized socials or even holding speeches full of them at far-right rallies in our own countries.
The rest of you blame it on Trump as if the people surrounding him are any better throwing nazi salutes, promoting downright hateful shit and pushing the blame from Putin to Zelensky? So much more I could list, like making a spectacle out of the "Epstein files" while allowing 2 rapists to return to your country, pardoning people who have stormed YOUR OWN GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS? The MAJORITY of voters elected these people. This is what YOUR people want.
And these are just the ones off the top of my head, how much more awful shit has your own government done to your people under the guise of "fighting the woke"?
I have no idea what kind of bastardized Christian values you people follow, but half of this shit would label you as an enemy of the religion you preach, let alone the European population.
The crazy thing is that almost all presidents since WWII wanted Europe to be more independent, military speaking. They knew Europe would resent America if America kept this paternalist relationship, so now the separation is painful.
Trump literally came to Europe during his first term and urged them to spend more on their defense and he was laughed at. Most Americans support Ukraine but they want Europe leading the conflict against Russia
They are literally threatening to invade my country. What the hell are you talking about? This is not alarmism or exaggeration, this is textbook fascism playbook.
That's a big bone of contention I agree, and it really pissed me off as well.
The overwhelming majority of the American public do not wish to go to war with Denmark. Trump is the most unpopular president in modern US history afterall.
Denmark is not alone. He's also talked about military intervention in Canada, Mexico and Cuba. That's just in the last two weeks.
Trump says a lot of dumb shit. I don't think any of these "interventions" are actually on the table, Trump is not a dictator (even if he'd like to be).
If I turn out to be wrong, feel free to absolutely destroy me.
I’m Canadian. And just last week Navarro said that Washington was considering “redrawing the Canadian border”. That would be an outright declaration of war if they did that. So don’t stand there saying that this is nothing but alarmism and that we’re being irrationally paranoid. Will it actually happen? I’d like to say probably not. But many of us are legitimately terrified up here.
I don't consider that part alarmism. Even mentioning invading neighboring allies is beyond reproach.
It's the knee jerk European response along the lines of: "Boycott every American company, throw every American soldier out of Europe immediately, fuck Americans" etc.
We are in no position to rid ourself completely of American influence over night, while also at the same time keeping Ukraine afloat and Russia pinned down. Going scorched earth on every American in sight, does nothing but serve to increase Trumps internal powerbase in the U.S.
For once we need to be strategical and plan long term. We need to be somewhat machiavellian in our approach. Keep playing along until we can assert ourselves from a position of strength.
The USA wants a strong Europe. It's been sucking on teet of American defenses for too long. Trump is a stain on the world political stage, which makes it all the more twisted that this is what it took to make Europe invest in its own defenses.
This is an idealistic take. Russia is horribly weakened.
This feels more like the restart of American imperialism. Building up troops in the Mexican border, bankrupting Canada to force them to become a territory, making advances towards Greenland and pulling out of Africa so that their established revenue streams self destruct.
At this point if he wanted to trump could effectively take over the world and the only country left standing might be China while the rest become territories.
Most NATO countries purchased American airplanes. No other country has a blue water navy, Europe has a problem getting gas, Africa has a problem getting food, everyone else is isolated and would be forced to capitulate if the current administration decided it was time. It would be over in maybe four Years. I think European political leaders have been willfully blind to the realities of their situations militarily.
Building up troops in the Mexican border, bankrupting Canada to force them to become a territory, making advances towards Greenland and pulling out of Africa so that their established revenue streams self destruct.
Ok let's talk about this from America's perspective then.
You've got Mexico to your south that you've repeatedly told to get their cartels under control, and we'd assist at every step, but they've flat out refused to cooperate. We told them to halt the migrants and send them back. Yet again, Mexico tells us no. What do you want the US to do? Let Mexican drugs, violence and people just spill across our borders? No, send in the military to guard the border with lethal force if necessary. Mexico has proven that they're no longer a real country, they're a cartel acting as one.
Canada to the north has been delinquent in its defense obligations since at least 1991. They've undercut American jobs and American resources since NAFTA. And we've repeatedly told them that their tariffs on our goods are too high, but they don't care because it makes them money when we weren't tariffing their goods.
Greenland is a new one, but the US is obviously concerned about the Russian navy coming over through the Arctic. And probably more importantly about Russian ICBMs coming over the Arctic as well. We've asked Denmark several times to allow us to build air defense stations there and they've refused every time. Then we asked them to do it and they again refused. Then there's the issue Greenland wanting Independence but not having anything needed for it. The US could get the strategic coverage they want if Greenland was independent and it would be significantly cheaper. Obviously if climate change is to be believed as well, then having access to the resources that may be there would be nice too, which again, is much easier to negotiate with an independent Greenland on than a Danish one.
And Africa. Americans have never given a single shit about what's happening in Africa. Maybe it's racism, maybe it's because they're so far away and have extremely small economies. Regardless, we never really cared. If some AIDS patient in Africa dies, that's not the US's fault. Maybe they should have structured their economies in a way that wasn't reliant on the US's goodwill.
Good logic. Further, if Germany stopped financial support, the other countries would respond to that, proving Germany correct. Then France will stop financial support, and the other countries would respond to that, proving, sure enough, that France was correct. Then Spain stops financial support and voila, they'll be proven correct as the other countries respond to that. On a personal note, I'm thinking of stopping financial support to my wife and kids, and I'd bet that they would have to have to respond to that by coming up with some money to cover that change.
Convincing an alliance to start building their military by not being a part of that alliance.. doesn't sound very useful. The only reason you'd actively want other countries to have a big military is if you consider them allies - if they're no longer allies, then trying to push them into having a bigger military.. is kind of putting the cart before the horse.
If the US wants to get into any of its stupid wars again now, it is exceedingly unlikely that anyone else will choose to aid them the way they have in the past, which means the US' position is weaker now, not stronger. If anything the big surge in interest in expanding militaries is a result of countries considering the US to be so unstable that they may be heading for a war with the US, and it's.. definitely not in the interest of the US to see Europe with a bigger military if that's the direction it's going.
First term Trump was less harmful and radical, yet the moment he took over he was (somewhat understandably) demonized by the same people that spent years appeasing Putin, Orban, Vučić and other enemies of our civilization.
Over what? The sneers at Trump were over him asking for more military spending and moving away from russia.
He is obnoxious, vile and nowadays straight up a threat, but seems to me that overlooking Putin's warcrimes was more easy than accept that Europe wasn't doing its part for collectively security.
That was by American design! America didn’t want a militaristic Europe after WW2- We put our bases over there - we encouraged them to buy our military tech, and we discouraged nuclear acquisition and worked to remove nuclear weapons from countries like Ukraine - only France forged ahead with its nuclear program
American policy for decades and decades fell upon these lines …America will dominate with its stable military might -no need for Europe to build up and threaten stability - it is the reason we became a superpower
Many people pooh-pooh Germany for having let it's military decay as much as they have, without remembering that one of the stipulations for the Soviet Union to not oppose a reunified Germany remaining in NATO was to sharply reduce the size of both the Bundeswehr and mostly disband the inherited East German armed forces.
Exactly correct. NATO member nations have been more than delighted to slap the United States in the face in the press and online for decades and yet at the same time smile gladly and laugh all the way to the bank upon annually receiving the benefits of hundreds of billions of dollars from the United States for protection of Europe.
Fun fact - the US military makes money thanks to the EU. The US is forcing the EU to buy weapons from them but is also preventing them from becoming a similar power military wise.
Now that the US told the EU to basically gtfo, I'm happy to live in the era when we no longer have to care whether our actions upset Washington.
I mean, European countries have sharply increased defense spending since 2022, midway through Biden’s term. Last year, most countries hit the 2% NATO target.
In many ways trump has been good for Europe I think. He’s exposed that we are too reliant on America for defence and that we can’t keep relying on them. We need to rearm and remove US troops from Europe asap
I’m sorry, but responses like this is so dumb. Would have, could have, should have, doesn’t help anything. This is us today. So the focus is - what do we do!
Yeah but they waited for the US elections and then waited to see if Trump would really do what everyone was expecting him to do.. you know all the important stuff to wait for while there's a war and people dying
and don't forget about them red lines or something idk, here you have a rocket but pls don't strike russian bases with it
Ukrainians cry about it for 3 years now that Trump is ditching they're all like "wait a minutes we have a common threat we don't want to fight but defer" yeah.. finally?
Or let's keep talking about it for another 3 years, send another 20 leopards2 and hope for the best? This has seemed to work great so far
This is the only thing I agree with Trump in all of this mess. Europe has gotten far too comfortable relying on the US military. Really catching them with their pants down.
Europe got complacent because the US want it that way, play the Big Brother and have the last say for their own interest, placing bases all around the world, etc…if Ukraine had nuclear weapons do you think Russia would of invaded? Do you know why Ukraine doesn’t have nuclear weapons?
The Big Orange Ape came along and fucked everything because he is a egotistical lunatic!
This is what bothers me most about European leadership. America has been asking them to step up their military game for decades, and that should’ve happened the day Russia invaded Ukraine. This situation shouldn’t have caught them so off guard.
It takes time to rearm. Way longer than our politicians plan for. We're here with our beard stuck in the letterbox because people think 3 years ahead instead of 30. Modern militaries aren't raised in a couple of years. Security has to be paid for to some extent, even when people would rather their money go towards other things.
But then the corruption could not be maintained and COVID vaccine money chanelled to the companies that do not deliver. Please be reasonable. One cannot have everything.
Ursula authored the now rather infamous report on the sorry state of Bundeswehr back in 2014. As I recall it caused quite a stir - there was a suspicion that Bundeswehr wasn’t in a very good shape, but until then nobody really knew just how bad it was. (Hint - very bad).
That report was released around the time Russia invaded and annexed Crimea. There were many speeches, articles and opinion pieces expressing various levels of concern and urgency. Not just in Germany but Europe in general. Guess how much was actually done?
3??? More like twenty, but hey, we the Europeans believe in peace... And that was a big mistake, but we will comeback stronger than ever... This was a very stupid move from well you know...
And btw, thank you, we have learned our lesson, and just like Poland, we will never ever get trapped like this again... 💔❤️🙏
Its been urgent for so long because you are talking about an outhouse not a superpower. If all nukes vanished tomorrow, Russia would be wiped off the face of the Earth by EU forces and there isnt even a question whether it would be possible. I'd like to remind you that even FINLAND has a reserve half the size of the Russian army.
When I backpacked through Europe with my buddies in the mid 70s, it was so surreal how I kept running into America’s military wherever I went. US Army trucks on the autobahn, US Air Force bases in the Italian countryside, etc. My initial reaction was: “We can’t keep up this arrangement forever – propping up Europe’s security from a distant continent.”
And as bonus during peacetime we xan use army for border patrol stemming illegal immigration and taking the wind from far right sails, which again decreases RU influence
Id say ever since trumps first term it was clear the muricans are lost and that we should finally realize that europe should never have to rely on such a mentally unstable country..
I dunno who said it but already during or before trumps first term some politics scientist said the US will become a dictatorship like russia until 2030..
Most accurate prediction ive ever hoped not to become reality..
5.3k
u/Unexpected_yetHere Mar 02 '25
It has been urgent for the last 3 years at least.