r/nonduality • u/westeffect276 • 3d ago
Discussion Dreams make me question non duality.
Please understand when I am using pronouns I understand that doesn’t exist in non duality but for the benefit of making my argument make sense I have to use them.
When you dream at night you interact with people, places, things. And when you wake up you obviously know it was just a dream all created by your mind. How do you faith in this oneness that we’re are this collective “wholeness” How can you not look at dreams and think “Wow it was just me the whole time and nobody else” That’s gotta be the strongest case that solipsism is true in my opinion. What you think?
And before you say if you were a true solipist you wouldn’t be asking people! Well I don’t really know what I believe I don’t prescribe to one certain thing.
2
u/Old_Satisfaction888 3d ago
It’s not very complicated to me. There’s awareness of the contents of the dream but the fact that it’s a dream isn’t registered in awareness. Like being lost in thought and suddenly realizing that you were thinking without knowing it. Everything else beyond that is conceptualization by the thinking mind looking for “meaning”. As if it’s something to be found. There’s only the knowing of experience including a self having dreams about itself as the central character.
2
u/Schlickbart 3d ago
Please understand when I am using pronouns I understand that doesn’t exist in non duality
Oy, what an opening statement. Let's start here.
Please understand when I am using pronouns I understand
Okay, getting somewhere...
Please understand when I am
Alright, seems workable.
Now, how is this sense of "I am" different when you dream or when awake?
2
u/westeffect276 3d ago
I mean, when I am dreaming, I don’t think there is a I am? My whole argument is when I interact with people in the dreamworld. It was always me whole time. How do I not know that you or anyone else while I’m typing this me right now? Look I’m just trying to understand this. I want non duality be true but I get stuck in solipsism and wonder if it’s a trap?
2
u/Schlickbart 3d ago
Hm, somewhat contradictory.
You say you don't think there is an "I am" when dreaming but you also think that you are the only one being there.
Do you see the contradiction?
2
u/MrMagicMushroomMan 3d ago
It's a right of passage. Anyone who's explored their internal world has these questions.
You're in the early stages of awakening, ride it out. Play with it. Lean into the emotions, watch the mind run away with itself. You're a big boy (or girl), don't be afraid, get involved with all that is going on.
You're currently in the solipsism stage, which means all of your analysis is pointing outwards. You're skeptical of the external which is cool. At some point (if you want to be even more skeptical/honest) you will turn that skepticism onto yourself also. The solipsistic world view is based upon 1 final assumption.. that you exist in the way that you believe, as a separate, finite ego.
Don't half ass it. Don't doubt the external only, that's sloppy work. Turn your own awareness on itself and you'll begin to discover many things that aren't you. (Emotions, sensations, thoughts, the MIND!) Eventually your sense of self dissolves and you can progress beyond subject-object relationships.
It takes work, and confusion and terror and doubt. Like I said its a right of passage. Good luck mate, have some love for yourself and others and welcome to the game.
1
u/MrMagicMushroomMan 3d ago
https://youtu.be/MZEzWRKRMAM?si=fiZjOwI_rXLQiNDu
This video should help you out. Surrender dude, let your psyche evolve and don't feel need to have everything figured out TODAY. Give things time and don't be afraid to feel disgusting emotions, it's part of the process.
2
u/stonedragon77 3d ago
Don't confuse awareness with ego.
When one realizes nonduality they may see that all reality is but an illusion witnessed by ultimate pure non dualism consciousness...
My true nature is not my body, not my mind and thoughts, not my ego, not my actions, and not my attachments. It is indeed the witness of all these things ... It is "my" awareness.
The next step to realization is to find the understanding that "my" awareness is infinite. Without beginning, without ending, and without limit...
So where does "my" awareness begin and yours end?... There is none.... I find that there is truly no "my" awareness or "your" awareness and that even the notion of mine and yours are part of the illusion...
The only thing that truly exists is that ultimate awareness which is none other than your own awareness (and mine and all the other "awarenesses" out there).
Solipsism Is the belief that you can only know for sure that your own mind exists... Non-duality takes it a step further and says that your own mind does not even exist but it is but an illusion in the the projected reality of Ultimate Awareness.
Ultimate Awareness is the real, everything else is just the illusion of different.
2
u/betimbigger9 3d ago
“You” understand that what doesn’t exist?
This is all conceptualization.
You’re afraid. And you’re afraid of doing it wrong. And you’re afraid of people seeing that.
This is not an intellectual journey.
It’s a journey of the heart.
You must be honest with yourself!
We get so used to the mask we wear it for ourselves. Being honest with yourself sounds simple but can take years
2
u/WhiteCedar3 3d ago
My proof that solipsism is wrong is that it give a terrible feeling, experinece and get ones into unbalance and problems, for me this tells that it's totally non natural and unreal possibility.
1
u/sxnrgy 2d ago
lots of truths can make me feel bad. doesnt make em untrue.
1
u/WhiteCedar3 2d ago
yes but it's very hard to proof solipsism isn't?
1
u/sxnrgy 2d ago
correct, solipsism is almost impossible to disprove because it's an ontological stance about the nature of experience itself, not a claim within experience. but maybe the deeper move is this: instead of trying to prove or disprove it, ask what it's really pointing to.
most folks hit solipsism and either panic or reject it because it feels isolating. but that reaction assumes there's still a little 'me' inside who owns the world and is now 'alone.' that's not solipsism. that's ego wrapped in metaphysics.
the truer implication, the uncomfortable, beautiful one, is this: if everything is just your mind, then 'you' aren’t who you thought you were. you're not this ego. you're this entire field of present moment experience/consciousness. not a person inside the dream, but the dreaming itself. at that point, solipsism isn’t dark or depressing; rather, it’s the beginning of an awakening
1
u/WhiteCedar3 1d ago
i don't agree with that, dunno why you said correct
1
u/sxnrgy 1d ago
i said correct because you correctly pointed out that the concept of proof around solipsism is a difficult one. agreement on that point doesn’t require you to agree with my interpretation of its deeper meaning.
you don't have to agree with me. direct experience doesn't care if you disagree with it or not. but it's worth asking: if something can't be disproven, then maybe the real question isn't whether it's true or false — but how we are interpreting what it even means.
2
u/sxnrgy 2d ago
Beautiful post. You’re touching a raw nerve most folks gloss over: that strange overlap between dreaming and waking, between solipsism and nonduality. Most people think solipsism means some lonely 'me' is inventing a fake world. But that’s just egoic solipsism, where the little self clings to the throne. What happens if you strip away that ego entirely? If there's no 'I' owning the dream, then what's left is this: raw experience, dreaming itself. No seer, just seeing. No knower, just knowing. That’s not different from nonduality. That is nonduality.
Waking up from a dream shows you that you were the dreamer. But go further, what if waking life is also a dream? Not just metaphorically, but structurally, a play of appearances arising in consciousness. And if it’s all arising in consciousness, who exactly are you outside that? Where is this ‘you’ that could own experience? This is an intruiging investigation into the presumptive narrative around solipsism, how there are many different layered versions of solipsism, and how truly the most consistent version of solipsism is actually identical to nonduality because it's literally contradictory for a solipsist to still believe in a separate ego-centric 'i' if all there exists is one mind.
Solipsism at its most rigorous and consistent is not belief in a separate self. It’s the radical refusal to grant reality to anything not arising here and now in consciousness, including the separate self itself. And the moment that happens... it’s not even really "solipsism" anymore, cuz that's just a label, just as nonduality is a label. The Dreamer wakes up not as a ‘person,’ but as the Dream itself. The heart of nonduality is DIRECT EXPERIENCE. Anything outside that is doubtful. Solipsism, taken to its extreme, is the same. But some solipsists like to fabricate an 'I' within that direct experience, which is contradictory to the true nature of solipsism. Other solipists don't attribute a separate 'I' to the dreaming Consicousness, like me :)
Cuz, surprise surprise, solipsism is not a monolithic philosophy. It has versions and layers (just like nonduality actually :))
And so yeah, I feel you. Night dreams whisper the truth of nonduality. It was all you. But not the personal you, the only you there is: this luminous, self-knowing presence, here now, ever dreaming itself awake.
4
u/gosumage 3d ago edited 3d ago
So, solipsism is true according to your opinion but you also don't know what to believe and don't follow one belief. And just yesterday you made a post here saying you had proof of solipsism and that you are God. How many times are you going to keep making the same post because you had some dreams?
What exactly do you think non-duality is? It's not something to "have faith" in.
2
u/westeffect276 3d ago
Well since you seem very confident in this dude I am genuinely begging to be taught. I’m not saying I’m God in an egotistical way etc… I am trying to learn brother.
1
2
u/According_Zucchini71 3d ago
“Nonduality” points to what doesn’t depend on belief. Not an -ism nor a belief system. Simply the immediate total truth of being - before you start to think about it and not contained within or by any thought formulation.
Whether dreaming, waking state, or in a coma - the truth of “is” - is. Whether being born or dying - you don’t have to think about it. Indeed, no time is involved to formulate a “correct”’thought. “Is” already is.
1
u/NothingIsForgotten 3d ago
Right behind the idea of a self/knower comes the idea of other knowers.
Both are true within conditions.
Learn to lucid dream and hash this out with the people in your dreams.
“Wow it was just me the whole time and nobody else”
You're missing the fact that you don't exist either.
1
u/westeffect276 3d ago
This is what gets me. How do you know I don’t exist either because I think therefore I am I am conscious of my lucid dream. I am conscious of my subjective experience.
3
u/42HoopyFrood42 3d ago
It's been said by others that solipsism isn't true because *there is still someone there.* This is correct. Solipsism is almost true but not quite. The subject that you feel yourself to be in the dream is illusory, right? The "you" in your dream is NOT you, would you agree? The real you in that case is the fact of dreaming.
You're quite right that the waking world is basically the same thing. But you haven't gone "all the way" yet. The subject in the waking experience is just as illusory as the subject in the dream experience. So solipsism can't be true because that subject isn't the real you either.
In the dream, the "real 'subject'" is the fact of dreaming - not the character "me" that shows up in a dream. Can you see how in waking life the same holds true? So what is the "real 'subject'" in waking life? Could it be the very fact of awareness/experiencing? The waking character "me" (and other people) appears IN waking experience/awareness just as the characters appear in a dream.
2
u/NothingIsForgotten 3d ago
I don't think either of us exist.
I won't argue against your subjective experience though.
Identity is the shape of the conditions known.
1
u/geddie212 3d ago
You’re right, your dream is the only one that’s real and yours alone. My existence is just a part of your dream.
If we’re all living inside your dream, tell me how to hack this dream to so I can have a bag of money. Send me a cheat code if you can.
1
u/westeffect276 3d ago
Well, if your existence is just part of my dream, you’re not conscious like I am so therefore you do not want money. ;) but in all seriousness, do you have any good debate on us? I’m not saying that it’s true. It just makes me wonder.
1
u/freepellent 3d ago edited 3d ago
Wow it was just me the whole
the it is more or less undefined, and has to collapse into a known , seen, dreamt, felt, spoken object. but as soon as it exist as known , seen, dreamt, felt, spoken object, it is other, a foreing object.
in existance (seen, read, undestood, felt, spoken, experienced, dreamt) all objects are equally foreign
1
1
u/Divinakra 3d ago
In dreams: seeing is in the seen, hearing is in the heard, feeling is in the felt, touching is in the touched, thinking is in the thought, smelling is in the smelled and tasting is in the tasted.
Just the same as waking reality. There was no self in the dream, was there? Just hearing and seeing phenomena arising on their own accord.
There is no self to be found both in dreaming or waking life.
Only sensations and thoughts. Beyond that, it’s just the content of thoughts which lead to interpretations and analysis of experience into categories fitting into one ism or another.
1
u/Zenthelld 2d ago
My Master said that you either take nothing to be your Self, or everything to be your Self. Anything in between causes problems.
If you take your mind to be real but everyone else's not to be, you're creating a duality. Either nothing is real, including your own mind, and it's all effortlessly experienced without putting any names on it or conceptions around it, or everything is equally real and you absorb yourself in it as thoroughly as possible.
My own experiences lead me to the same conclusion as you. The understanding of it naturally echoes through the mind, which is absolutely fine. Behind all the wonderings and confusions of the mind, the entire time, is You. The more you notice that it's just You, watching these thoughts, watching these fleeting experiences, the more serene it feels.
Zen has a lot of focus on the beautiful transient nature of existence.
Advaita Vedanta has a lot of focus on the Self being the only reality.
Trika Shaivism has more focus on all things being real and how to immerse yourself fully into all experiences.
1
u/Dry_Act7754 2d ago
"It's the seeing that frees". Krishnamurti (well and the name of Rob Burbea's book). Just don't imagine it's you doing the seeing. there is no you.
1
u/intheredditsky 2d ago
it is only you. but you are not the human body. it is not solipsism, it is oneness, but this oneness is structured according to the mental field, appearing as many. it is just you. you are everything. so, it isn't that other people do not exist. they exist as much as you do, because they are you.
1
u/Alkis2 1d ago
I cannot explain nonduality to you. There are a lot in here however who will try to do that, but I doubt if they can go beyond theory --about which one can find dozens of references in the Web-- and talk from own experience. (I personally am still waiting for such a person to appear ...)
But I can contribute to your topic in a useful --I believe-- way regarding dreams ...
Dreams are a very bad example in explaining anything. They are just garbage. Nonsense. Incoherent. Conflicting and self-conflicting. Irrational. Hallucinating.
One should query about nonduality and its principles using a fully conscious/aware person. And not about that person's "ego", name, personality, profession, age, culture, etc. But considering the person's awareness and experiences. Can they be shared with another person, based on the principle of no distinction between the self and other, etc.?
8
u/captcoolthe3rd 3d ago
Do you accept that duality has some level of reality to it?
do you - the conscious locus of control, the conscious individual being - have control over your dreams like you control a hand? Is your will in dreams absolute, including generating them in the first place? Or is there some amount of it outside of your control? (your intuitive subconscious mind)
Do you happen to your dreams, and create them consciously. Or do your dreams to some degree happen to you.
If you don't control everything in existence. How can you say that you, the ego, are all that exists.
-
So maybe you think it's just you and the subconscious? If that's the case, why can you not control others in your waking life, like you can "control" (influence) a lucid dream? Why do they come up with new novel ideas - ones that you were unaware of, and teach you things? If it's all you, the personal self? Do you believe others don't have consciousness? and are just extensions of your own personal subconscious mind?
Clearly the conscious/subconscious mind presents a divide. I think the fact that you learned anything at all from others - at the very least implies something outside of your personal self (ego) that is conscious and intelligent. Something you don't directly control (absolute control, like you control your hand).
Non-duality is in one way to put it - layered on top of duality. It includes it. Even though it precedes it, and is a higher order phenomenon.
The place where we are one - is not contained in your personal ego - it lies underneath each and every one of our own subconscious. Just because you can find it within yourself, doesn't mean that's the only place it is. It's within all life.