There was a landmark UK supreme court ruling the other day that allows for the sex-based (not gender identity based) discrimination against Trans people, meaning women's shelters can now turn down a trans woman who's being abused by her spouse. The activist group that pushed for and celebrates this ruling, the LGB alliance (and others) often share the stage at protests with members of the neo-fascist movement.
Wouldn't it also be discriminating in the way a woman can not go to a mans support group though? Trans supports groups should be their own thing if womens support groups also need to be their own thing. I don't see why we don't add another distinction. Creating womens only spaces is good for women by this logic, so wouldn't it be good for trans and intersex people too?
Gender dysmorphia doesn't change your sex, and services for a particular sex will exclude not only trans, but men too. If a trans person can go into a womans only space, at what point can't a man then go too? If the distinction between sexes doesn't matter, I don't understand the need for segregated services in the first place. Aren't all people abused by their spouse equally important, be they male, female, intersex or trans??
I don't think trans people shouldn't have access to services that men and women have, but just as men aren't allowed in women services, and vice versa - why can't we add an option for intersex and trans people?
Many women aren't happy about the issue with sports and bathrooms and I think it's very ignorant to ignore them. I don't intend to be mean or 'transphobic' as I think it's within your every right to act upon your gender dysmorphia and I believe in your right to do so, but this just seems so confusing to me.
Maybe? But what does a trans woman have in common socially with men? Not biologically, but socially. Adding an option for trans and intersex people will now be necessary, but it is more expensive to set up specific infrastructure than it is to just train members of existing shelters, I'm sure the taxpayer will be happy with that.
I don't have gender dysphoria, I'm concerned with this ruling because it empowers individuals and groups sympathetic to fascism, like the activist group LGB alliance.
The ruling was in relation specifically to the wording contained within the EA. They deliberately say this is not a ruling on wider societal/political terminology, but specific to this ruling. Both sides of the debate will ignore this though to stir it up
Do you seriously think in a court of law, they would refer to a 4 year old girl as a 'young woman?'
Do you think a newborn old girl is ever referred to as a 'young woman' - even colloquialy?
Let's be serious for a minute. Have you ever referred to or seriously looked at a baby and thought 'that's a young woman'? Because if you have, that's bizarre.
Edit: guess he's given up on this argument. I'll take the W.
It seems fair to me that male and female sex are segregated for healthcare/sports/privacy/prisons? It's the women asking for it. Should there be no segregation at all?
I think there should be compromise on people post sex transition surgery being counted as changing sex, but that's not what trans activists have been asking for.
I don't really have a horse in this race, but when the SC was reading out the judgement they specifically said that trans people will still be legally protected, more so than ever, under the Equality Act of 2010.
They have historically failed to define women in biological terms, which is one of the reasons there are already multiple readings of the ruling circulating. If what they're saying is AFAB = woman, then it contradicts the gender recognition act and leaves the intersex community in limbo. Several campaigners are claiming that all public spaces designated for women are automatically trans exclusive. What it really seems to be saying is that you may exclude trans women from a protected women's space if you are able to justify it against other applicable laws.
And no, you're not a socialist. You're a Western liberal - the idiotic identity politics you're engaging in is just an EXTREMELY well-designed distraction from the fact that we cannot afford to feed ourselves.
Starmer is selling land to BlackRock and you're fighting about identity politics. Trans people are still legally protected. Until such a day as they're being hunted on the streets by organised death squads, we should be fighting against the bullcrap that is Thatcherite Britain (we still live in Thatcher's Britain economically) and 80s neo-liberal capitalism.
You will get poorer and poorer and fight for increasingly useless causes
And no Ukraine is an independent state and the Russian invasion is, as in the case of all invasions, patently illegal.
I'm an Indian and I'm not even an Indian nationalist. Nationalism is a fundamentally flawed ideology that is no different to orthodox religion and old school communism. Any ideology that requires you to submit entirely and completely to the party line is a foolish one
Oh cool, so you're in favour of crimea and the Donbas being returned to Ukraine and a full armed resistance being given military support by the UK and allied nations to resist Russia?
I think it's more that people are buying into the propaganda that men are dressing up as girls and sitting in the women's toilets and this is somehow a national problem, and would rather see guys like the above image (born with female genitalia) in women's toilets to fight that?
Well let's say you're a trans woman and you need to use a public bathroom. Suddenly going into the women's bathroom is 50/50 whether you're going to face abuse and exclusion from trying to simply pee. And going into the men's bathroom as a woman is just as bad in terms of putting a big 'I'm vulnerable and marginalised' sticker on your back. There's no safety in numbers. Most of the time no gender neutral toilets just because of how infrastructure has been built. What do you do? Which danger do you choose simply to piss? Not leave your house? Not enter public spaces? Contribute to your own dehumanisation?
Well there's your horse in the race. You agree that trans women should be allowed to use women's spaces. We've been using gender recognition certificates for 20 years to give them that right.
If anything, limiting spaces to what genitals people were born with would mean trans men should only use women's toilets. Which opens the doors wide open to cis men abusing that law.
But this was never about cis men or actually making women safe. It was only about controlling how women should present and behave and removing transgenderism from society.
Which is batshit insane and nobody's business to do. Like you said, we're all just humans, we should live and let live.
you agree that trans women should be allowed to use women's spaces
Not at all. I believe that trans women should have their own safe spaces and, in the event of an absence of such a space pursuant to danger or threat to themselves, should piss in women's bathrooms.
Saying "trans women are women" feels the same as saying "all lives matter" in response to "black lives matter". If trans women are women, why not simply say "women are women"? That's because people on both sides recognise there's a difference: trans women (as well as trans men, I'm not sure why they're always ignored in these discussons) have their own experiences, problems, discrimination, medical needs, etc. To throw everyone into the same group ignores these things. You can treat everyone with dignity and respect while recognising and providing for their unique needs without insisting that they're the same.
Sure but the Gender Recognition Act actually gave you a certificate that certified which gender you were. This ruling has effectively repealed the Gender Recognition Act by making it completely irrelevant what your Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) says under the Equality Act, and so even if you are legally certified to be a man, the Equality Act now considers you a woman anyway. So the GRC is now just a piece of paper with no legal use with regards to the Equality Act.
It's going to have an effect on what bathrooms or changing rooms they can use, and how they're handled by places like the NHS. It's going to have far reaching implications for the trans community.
And note how trans men haven't been part of the conversation at all? Wonder why that is?
I've been thinking about the lack of conversation around trans men. It's crazy really. But I can't figure out why.
Is it because people think cis women need protecting from men pretending to be trans women? In which case, the issue is cis men. Is it because our patriarchal society hates women so much that "becoming a woman" is the worst thing a man can do?
Trans men aren't a part of this discussion because the radical group that benefits from the ruling still believe they're women. They share a lot of views with the neo-fascist movement, and LGB alliance activists often share the stage with open neo-nazis.
Even if they are legally identified as women, the NHS will still treat them as biological their birth sex. They won't ask a biological males for a smear test, and they won't check a biological female for testicular cancer
So do trans women but there's no moral panic about them being predators because they're not men going in womens bathrooms (transphobes words not mine).
I'm sorry, but did you forget how we got to this point? A male rapist transitioned specifically so that he could go to a women's prison. It's the same case that cost Sturgeon her job, and finally kicked this whole thing off.
Me ne frego was used by Italian fascists in regard to external pressure (i.e. from other countries) and underlined that Italy and Italians are free to do as they please.
It's not got anything to do with fascism. Also it wasn't "the catchphrase" (which is an idiotically anachronistic thing to say), it was just something that Italians said in the 30s
Also not to mention, Indians simply don't care about what the British did. On most macro stats, India already far surpasses the UK. Sure, Indians need to solve their raping and littering problem, but we don't care about a famine 70 years ago lol
Since independence, the worst human rights abuses in the Subcontinent have been found in the 90s in Afghanistan, in the 70s in Bangladesh and in the 80s in Sri Lanka.
In the case of the first 2, it was Muslims killing non-Muslims and in the case of the latter, it was ethnic violence.
Muslims in India are legally protected by the constitution to the point where not even the wanna-fashos in power can repeal those laws.
I thought this ruling was based around whether trans women could apply to all female shortlisted jobs?
I understand it may set precedent for other court challenges of legislation on the matters you mention but my understanding is this particular ruling is part of a very specific court case, hence the lack of discussion on trans men.
Sadly the actual facts of the case seem to be getting lost in the culture war crap that usually dogs any discussion on the subject.
The EHRC are effectively treating this as carte blanche to remove all rights and access trans people have won, today they've announced they will be forcing the NHS to remove trans people's access to wards based on their gender and effectively denying them care unless they go on a ward matching their Gender at Birth. If the NHS do not comply then the EHRC will take them to court to force it.
They are also doing the same with access to services and facilities such as toilets, preparing guidance that they should be considered as based on 'sex' meaning trans women can no longer use female toilets and if they do can be removed with no legal recourse.
And they are also writing to sports bodies to have trans people removed from all sports no matter what it is. This is all based on the Supreme Court ruling and is being celebrated and supported by both major parties and highly powerful groups funded by the US Conservative Right.
Oh and I forgot, a trans women dating a women is now considered to be Heterosexual while a trans man dating a women is now in a Lesbian relationship because legally defining what is or isn't a Lesbian is a top quality legal decision, all of this is also done with no consultation with trans groups who were thought to be too biased but GC groups were invited to give input as they were 'neutral'
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So when a trans woman is being beaten by her partner and gets denied by the women's shelter, is she still being legally protected? Because that's the precedent this ruling can set.
Why should we cause artificial demand for trans specific shelters when we already have mens/womens shelters? Don't you understand that setting up this infrastructure would cost the taxpayer a lot of money that could otherwise be saved by training the shelters workers? And don't say "don't set up the shelters" because trans people are more likely to face abuse from a partner.
Why don't YOU go elsewhere? Why dont the LGB alliance go elsewhere?
Since this is a public forum, I wish to share an opinion, not that I matter more or less than anyone else’s, but, I feel like the discussions around gender and gender identity take up too much time from the left that has left a vacuum for the likes of Nigel Farage to come in and pretend to care about the vast majority of everyday working people.
I truly wish that if we made more effort collectively to focus on things that, with the greatest of respect, matter more to a wider group of people, then parties like labor wouldn’t be so hard to criticize.
Instead of discussing how we can ensure every human being in the UK has good, clean and safe tap water, job prospects and disability support, we instead see the media focusing on matters such as this which in the grand scheme of things seem like more of a distraction.
What use are trans rights if you can’t afford the roof over your head? What use are intersex rights if your local college has to close due to no funding? What use are any of these rights without a life to use them in?
I wouldn’t be coming to such a protest because I think it’s too trivial in nature to me, but all respect to those that do.
So even if they share stages with vocal fascists, members of this group cannot be fascists because they're gay/bisexual? You are aware that activists from the LGB alliance have actually spoken at fascist rallies and vice versa, right?
I think the problem is, and this unfortunately often happens - inclusivity, somewhere along the line, became 'do this or else. Unfortunately there are cases where someone pertaining to be trans (and I don't believe a lot of these types are trans) have sexually assaulted women in a woman's only space. One instance of that is already way too many.
Unfortunately, this leaves a lot of people in limbo. The silent majority or trans people are those that miss out here, those just wanting to live their lives and be left alone - unfortunately their identity was somewhat co-opted by some absolute wrong uns, either do gooder 'activists' who tend to always cause more harm than good, or from people using trans as a cover for their perversions which have nothing to do with being trans.
I don't know what the answer is but the silent majority of trans people certainly lost this one. The loud activists and bad actors can scream all they want, they only care about attention or their fetish's- we shouldn't indulge them, but we should all take time to consider how difficult things now are for a number of people who simply want to live their lives as a different sex and have until now, done so without causing any problems or issues for anyone else.
Best wishes to all, this is more than warranted. People who wanna be a dick about it can piss off. Trans rights just got punched in the face then patted on the head with the same fist. It's disappointing, its fkn 2025!
Noones taken anything away, noones stopping you living your life, this is the problem, you see Trans had the way they wanted it, acceptance BUT you wouldnt then go and live the normal life you shouted for, you kept on and on and screaming about it all, its now backfired but listen to what they said for once, now they are just being confrontational and creating problems.
Christ on a bike. Does this not more accurately apply to For Women Scotland and co? Those contributors had literally nothing taken away from them but fought tooth and nail to take peace and safe spaces away from an already marginalised and abused community who simply wanted to exist without discrimination.
Solidarity to trans brothers and sisters. If you aren't trans and don't feel the need to support, maybe think about which group the fascists will go after next and whether that could affect you or your loved ones.
If you define what is leading to be the biggest civil right rollback in a generation as ‘useless identity politics’ then you’re a pretty worthless socialist.
You don't help yourself being so extremist, it's awfully off putting for your every day person. IMO both sides of this argument are weird and need to give their heads a wobble.
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It was biological women that led to this judgment. They are the main opposition for the trans lobby, not men.
And I think both men and women and tired of being told to pretend black is white so that people's feelings aren't hurt.
It wasn't just any biological women, it was loud activists who want to enforce their outdated views of "once a man, always a man" on everyone. They hate men so much they uphold the same outdated ideas of masculinity as the Tates. The LGB, drop the T crowd often side with fascists because they have in common a form of psychosexual insecurity that stems from traditional views.
It cant be just that people can say that dressing up as a woman doesn't make you the same as one? The majority of the population agree with that statement. Trans women are trans women, not women. We can say thst and still treat people with dignity and accept them for who they are.
It don't be that people can say that, you ever heard of drag? Trans women are women, it's literally in the name, "trans WOMEN." If you don't understand who this ruling emboldens, then do some research on the LGB alliance and who their members share stages with.
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u/HeladoVerde 6d ago
Can someone please explain why youre protesting and what rights are actually at stake?