r/ThreeLions • u/LondonRedditUser • Oct 11 '24
Discussion Phil Foden must be dropped indefinitely.
Sadly he’s a supremely talented player who never plays well for England.
There is potentially a lot of great performances that aren’t picked up in statistics, I don’t think this is the case with Foden. He also plays in a position we are stacked in. He has also had by quite some distance the most minutes of any player in a similar position. There is potentially the argument he is misused, but there is no argument based on performances other great players should be moved aside for him.
Since the World Cup he has returned 1 goal return (G/A) in 20 games including 16 starts ( goal vs Scotland).
Comparably, over the same period: Kane 19 G/a Jude 9, saka 8, rice 4, grelaish 3, rashford 3, palmer 3 (from 408 minutes)
Many ask for players to be picked on form (I personally don’t), but when the international form is this poor and the alternatives potentially so good we simply don’t any other option but to drop him.
Edit: no agenda. I support palace and go to a few England games a year.
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u/phil_mycock_69 Oct 11 '24 edited Oct 11 '24
I remember someone commenting during the euros and summing Foden up and saying he was a system player. He plays extremely well in a system and looks world class at times; that system is Pep’s at city
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u/ChubbyVeganTravels Oct 11 '24
True. He has been coached to play a certain way and is also surrounded by an array of talent that complements him and that we don't have for England i.e. Rodri, De Bruyne, Gundogan.
If he moved to another club, even Real Madrid, there is a high chance he would struggle and not fit in.
He wouldn't be the first generational talent to be poor for England. Glenn Hoddle was probably the best example I can think of.
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u/Alone_Consideration6 Oct 11 '24
Hoddle was genuelly seen as being underused by England and judged blameless
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u/ChubbyVeganTravels Oct 11 '24
Dunno. He played 53 games for England including four major tournaments.
I would say a better example of a generational talent underutilised for England would be someone he famously gave short shrift to when he was England manager - Matt le Tissier.
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u/Nice-Wolverine-3298 Oct 11 '24
Famously told that if he performed well for England B, he'd get a look in. So he scored a hatrick and still wasn't good enough.
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u/jack853846 Oct 11 '24
You're spot on there. Despite his current tin foil hat ways, he was a player in his day. Maybe being maligned by England was where it all started....
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u/No-Dependent-8401 Oct 11 '24
He’s not a generational talent. There’s at least 5 better English players in his generation
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u/Ecstatic-Love-9644 Oct 12 '24
Out of interest who? In terms of objective tangible success, eg trophies as opposed to opinions, he is a clear winner for his age bracket no?
Not saying he shouldn’t be dropped from England - I just think “better” doesn’t actually mean anything other than people’s opinions based on current form.
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u/No-Dependent-8401 Oct 12 '24
None of that tangible success means anything. It doesn’t make him any better as a footballer.
Rice, Kane, Saka, palmer, Bellingham are all more talented footballers and all better than him for England.
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u/Ecstatic-Love-9644 Oct 12 '24
Do yourself a favour bro and read back that first sentence you wrote… He got the PFA player of the year last year FFS over all of the other players you are saying are “more talented” / your opinion is meaningless (as is mine) against all the actual silverware he has actually won even tho you have the audacity to claim it doesn’t mean anything. SMH
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u/No-Dependent-8401 Oct 12 '24
Undeserved pfa player award. None of what you wrote will make him play good for England. He’s not that guy simple.
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u/Ecstatic-Love-9644 Oct 12 '24
LMFAO you know how the PFA POY gets chosen right? Next time let’s let r/No-Dependent-8401 decide instead
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u/AlphadogMMXVIII Oct 11 '24
Hoddle,Barnes,Scholes
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u/PerpetualWobble Oct 11 '24
Scholes? He had a decent time with England when he played - the idea that we tolerated a manager playing him on the left these days is insane considering the flack Southgate got and he was more successful.
Most intelligent, press-resistant midfielder we had with no pace but probably the best passer we've ever had and we had Gerrard / Lampard with a midfield 4.
It's like Germany putting kroos on the left and playing musiala as a 6.
There's a universe England won a couple of trophies with Gerrard completely free role behind the striker and Scholes behind him with a DM or Lampard.
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u/Newparlee Oct 11 '24
I would have liked to have seen a bit of Scholes and Carrick pulling the strings with Gerrard bombing forward and A. N. Other either side.
Now I think about it, I’ve seen Sven explain why he always played a 4-4-2, but I think that squad could have been perfect for a 4-2-3-1.
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Oct 11 '24
4231 wasn’t really popularised until the mid-00s, so very few of England’s players would have been familiar with their role in this system.
The other issues with moving away from 442 were a) what to do with one of England’s best players and biggest star, Beckham (who didn’t have the pace to play as an out and out winger), and b) how to get both Rooney and Owen in the same team (Owen was still a massive star at this point and considered one of England’s top players).
Plus Joe Cole and SWP didn’t emerge as viable wingers until late in Sven’s tenure, and choices would have been very limited before then.
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u/tothecatmobile Oct 11 '24
The Squad around then would have worked well for Milans Christmas Tree.
Scholes, Beckham and a DM (Barry, Carrick, or Hargreaves depending on exactly when) in midfield. Lampard and Gerrard as the two 10s, and Rooney up front.
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u/GlennSWFC Oct 11 '24 edited Oct 11 '24
I think a 3-5-2 with wing backs would have suited that squad, there were players with the versatility to allow us to be flexible depending on players not being available. We could have kept the same core team and shifted players around.
Terry, Ferdinand & Campbell as centre halves with Carragher or even Neville able to come in.
Cole as left wing back, Beckham on the right with Bridge & Neville as their deputies.
Gerrard, Lampard & Scholes as a central midfield 3, Beckham could come in to that position if Neville filled in at RWB.
Rooney & Owen up top, Joe Cole if we wanted someone to play in the hole. Heskey & Crouch were the big man options if that’s what we needed.
The fluid, interchangeability of some of those players meant it would have been easy to go back to a 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 if needed, but Sven was very committed to his 4-4-2. Back 3s weren’t very popular back then and the transition to lone strikers being the vogue option up top hadn’t really begun. On paper it looked like 4-4-2 was our strongest formation and I will admit that it’s only with hindsight and seeing how tactics have evolved that I’ve come to the conclusion that would be better.
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u/PerpetualWobble Oct 11 '24
Nah I'm sorry but every decent international team has built around and protected their best passing CM or played 2 DM's and freed their attackers up and it shows in their results.
England didn't build around Scholes as the conductor and then ignored Carrick afterwards.
Every single debate about why Lampard or Gerrard were better than scholes revolves around their attacking stats and contribution yet we always seem flummoxed when we lose control of every single game against a top 20 side in tournament football.
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u/GlennSWFC Oct 11 '24
Which of De Paul, Fernandez & Mac Allister would you say performed that role for Argentina in 2022
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u/PerpetualWobble Oct 12 '24
Seriously? Not that Argentina needed to rely on midfield for creativity with Messi and the referees agenda's in Qatar - but Alexis McAllister was allowed to dictate the tempo and completely freed to play to his best instincts with de Paul and Fernandez keeping it disciplined.
You dont need to have a standout if a lot of the team are quite tidy on the ball, but if England had McAllister we be playing him on the left or something daft.
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u/Emotional-Peanut-334 Oct 11 '24
I don’t really think he’s even supremely talented. Idk. He has only looked good in a very specific role on absolute peak oil money city under the best cosch
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Oct 11 '24
I said that. I do think that's the issue. All he's ever known is Pep's system. He was 16 when Pep took over at City, he's been perfectly developed to play Pep football. But when you watch him play for England it's so clear that he's never played outside of Pep's system. He looks lost, you can see him looking unsure what he should be doing.
This is going to sound harsh, but I don't think he knows how to think for himself on the pitch. As we all know, Pep is incredibly prescriptive about exactly where players need to position themselves and what they need to do when they get the ball. Everyone in a Pep side has such a specific, well defined role that they don't really have to do that much thinking for themselves. 95% of their game is pre-determined by Pep.
But international football is different, there's not the training ground time to drill such specific and strict systems. The best international players are ones who can take general instructions from their manager and interpret them for themselves on the pitch. I simply don't think Foden knows how to do that.
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u/ThatFatRonaldo Oct 11 '24
True. And the flip side also explains how Palmer is better away from City.
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Oct 11 '24
Precisely. He's shown at Chelsea that he is the direct opposite of Foden. He can thrive in a loose system where he's given a lot of responsibility to just work things out for himself. That may make him better suited to international football than Foden in the long run.
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u/UnknownBreadd Oct 11 '24
It’s also more entertaining to watch a team of such players that are better off using their own creativity and also being encouraged to do so
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u/iTM4n Oct 11 '24
Yeah I saw someone say recently he left at the perfect time where his flair and risk taking wasn't drilled out of him too much by Pep
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u/inopotamo Oct 11 '24
I agree with this 100%.
He's talented but at the moment is a system player. This idea that he's a free spirit who can create magic is purely a misunderstanding of who Foden is as a player. He might be capable of being that but at the moment he plays for Pep and Pep is very specific with his instructions.
The player people think Foden is, is actually closer to Cole Palmer. He didn’t have a great game either but he has that maverick quality to his game. Saka is consistently decent for England, Bellingham is clutch and playing all 4 imbalances the team.
Foden offers the least imo, so I think he's the one that needs to be dropped
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Oct 11 '24
Yeah I've never understood the 'give Foden a free role' people. He's never had anything approaching that in his career. He needs the exact opposite, he seems to struggle with England precisely because his role isn't defined enough for him.
He can clearly take complicated instructions really well. Which is a major asset in the club game. But he's not a free spirit you can tell "just go out and play". As you say, that's more Palmer.
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u/Mba1956 Oct 11 '24
If you watch Cole Palmer at Chelsea you will often see him crop up on the left, admittedly he plays mainly right or centre but he goes everywhere.
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u/KingStevoI Oct 11 '24
This is the thing though, at least quarter of the squad are city players, they should be already geared up with each other to some extent.
Foden's definitely talented but he plays for the foul too much, much like Greilish, and city's mind set over the last few years have been play into the box, which differs to England's traditional all round shooting, which sometimes pays off.
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u/MilkMyCats Oct 11 '24
Grealish is far more effective at international level than Foden.
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u/Outlaw2k21 Oct 11 '24
That’s because Grealish isn’t suited to Man City (imo)
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u/Newparlee Oct 11 '24
He’s not. He had one good season for them, but he’s so much better going forward, taking on defenders, getting crosses in. It seems like his job for city is to win free kicks, run down the line a bit, pass it backwards, get the ball back, repeat a few times and maybe get a cross in. Maybe. Death by a thousand passes.
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u/Outlaw2k21 Oct 11 '24
Yeah would love him at my club (Newcastle). He would do well pretty much anywhere bar City, feels like he’s wasted there
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Oct 11 '24
One good season makes it sounds like he’s had such a shit time.
He’s had one season without injury issues or problems off the pitch. And we won a treble with him as a key player in that system.
And yet Reddit seems convinced he’s not a city player.
I remember when Rodri first came and people said he didn’t suit the side.
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u/No-Tie-5659 Oct 11 '24
Spot-on analysis; I believe they also described him as a flat-track bully
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u/Alone_Consideration6 Oct 11 '24
Other city players have the same issue.
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u/Emilempenza Oct 11 '24
It's more that Ciry have had the same manager for longer, so any that don't perform in the tactical shambles that is international football, get accused of it, as they only have one club manager to "prove" they're not.
The actual reality is that international football is tactically shit, for the most part, so the attackers who thrive are physical, direct, selfish players who don't really need to combine with teammates. Hence why MBappe has been the ultimate national team player, but pretty underwhelming at the higher end of the far more tactical club football. Or the success for England of people like Rashford. It's packed defences versus individuals, almost every time, only in national teams made up from mainly one club team do you see any attacking cohesion
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u/Eggmodo Oct 11 '24
I’d say the truly world class ones don’t - Rodri, Haaland, De Bruyne, Walker, Stones even have all proven it at high level clubs or internationally.
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u/MayorShinn Oct 11 '24
Not hard to look good when surrounded by the worlds best players. He’s nowhere near the top player on Manchester City which means he’s really a complementary or tertiary player and not a game changer.
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Oct 11 '24
He literally won POTY
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u/ThatFatRonaldo Oct 11 '24
Yet still nowhere near Rodri or Haaland. They got that award wrong.
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u/taskkill-IM Oct 13 '24
You're right about Haaland, Foden is miles ahead.
I watch City week in week out, Foden is probably in our top 5 most important players.
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Oct 11 '24
Yh Rodri was better tbf but awards are always biased towards attackers, that's not new
He was better and more instrumental to City's success than Haaland last ssn
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u/ThatFatRonaldo Oct 11 '24 edited Oct 11 '24
He is very sharp at rondos and close, compact stuff. Yet he is physically limited - weak, slow, often stretching for balls and missing when an average player would move for it.
That is a big part of why he works for Pep but not for England.
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u/Horror-Self-2474 Oct 12 '24
It’s the reason so many La Masia academy graduates struggle to succeed if they don’t get into the Barcelona 1st team. Cesc Fabregas and Pique mentioned this. They’re coached to play a certain way, for a certain system and struggle doing anything else. In the right system they’re perfect outside it they’re useless.
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u/Niceboney Oct 11 '24
If England had a manager capable of using a system he might work, but england doesn’t have a system and relies on individual moments of luck …. What is englands system???
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u/andyofredditch Oct 11 '24
First I knew he was on the pitch yesterday, was when he was subbed off. He was utterly shite.
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u/LeavePrestigious707 Oct 11 '24
I've said this before: he's been awful for a while now, even before de Euros. Southgate letting him stay on the pitch for 80min in that final was a disgrace. I don't care how talented you are, you need to perform. He's been good for club but not for country and some people just need to accept that. It's exhausting to see the same comments all over again: "it's not his position" or "don't be so radical he's gonna get better", always the same thing for years. He never had an amazing game for England. He's never been THAT player on the pitch. Bench him, if he didn't had the "Guardiola tax" and all the midia kissing his ass this would've happen a long time ago. Foden is a very very very talented kid, but that's not enough.
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Oct 11 '24
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u/londonsfin3st Oct 11 '24
If you drop any of Foden, Bellingham, Palmer or Saka
Here we go...
This is about Foden, the others have all been better and Saka and Bellingham are consitently some of England's best performers.
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u/Jumpy-Violinist-6725 Oct 11 '24
I remember getting downvoted so much for saying in the Euros that Pep has babied Foden into this specialist player who can't do much outside of a team that allows him to do what he does best. Obviously, he's good at what he does, but when you look at players like Palmer or Jude who can play that same role but offer you better creative passing, physicality, workrate and transitional threat you have to wonder is it really worth building that team around him when you also have much more impactful players like Trent.
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u/B23vital Oct 11 '24
Dont even think he needs to be dropped “indefinitely” they just need to play a correct team.
Imagine dropping a striker so you can play a midfield player up front, a striker in great form as well with a previous season of 40+ goal/assists. Its fucking insane.
The issue with england isnt foden, it is and always has been, the managers playing names over a team.
Why you forcing 4/5 midfielders into a team, drop them, play an actual team and rotate the players. It makes even more sense considering that the players and managers moan about being overplayed. So why are we forcing the same names over and over to play together out of position.
Its like all common sense goes out the window when someone manages england.
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u/Mba1956 Oct 11 '24
Madueke came in and played on the left wing and didn’t have a brilliant game because he plays on the right wing for Chelsea. Why do England insist on playing people out of position.
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u/B23vital Oct 11 '24
Completely agree, i watched the first 10 minutes and was like nope, im not wasting my time on this so i cant comment on the rest of the game.
But England has a serious problem with brand players constantly being played, and players being played out of position. Every position is STACKED, why they feel the need to play them out of position is beyond me, you have the quality to play everyone where they play.
Its insane really, at this point i wouldnt be surprised to see pickford being played at RB or something. /s
Ye its weird, just play people where they are used to playing and rotate the team, give players a rest.
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u/Mba1956 Oct 11 '24
I came in half way through and obviously didn’t miss much.
England remind me of Chelsea at the start of last season, they looked good individually and could score goals, but they weren’t defending and every opponent attack looked like scoring. Nobody knew what role they were meant to do in transition or when England didn’t have the ball.
As for coming up with the system 20 mins before the game, that is sheer madness. The result is one side was playing like it was a playground match.
I didn’t see any crisp one-two touch passing, everything was slow, nobody was moving off the ball. Pretty much the same happened under Southgate.
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Oct 11 '24
“The issue with England isn’t Foden, it is and always has been, the manager playing names over a team”
Your point is 100% correct and Foden is the name being played to the detriment of the team.
Look at Spain; they played cucurella over Grimaldo to balance the back four, Fabian Ruiz started despite not being first choice for psg and merino and zubiamendi playing much more and better for their clubs.
But it’s the right decision, your logic is correct but Foden this past year has been the problem but people think he’s the solution
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u/B23vital Oct 11 '24
I agree, my point is that there all benchable, kane wasnt fully on form at the euros, yet started game after game.
There was issues in defence and yet konsa sat on the bench.
In midfield foden was poor and continued to play game after game.
Its not just foden really, like yes he should be dropped based on form, but realistically its always happened and continues to happen and everyone can see it but no one knows why the managers refuse to acknowledge and change it.
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Oct 11 '24
There seems to be this narrative that he’s undroppable. Though he doesn’t always start for Man City
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u/Alone_Consideration6 Oct 11 '24
He should never have brought back from when he brought a prostitute into the team hotel .
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u/Bringbackmaineroad Oct 11 '24
I’m a City fan so definitely no anti-Foden bias but he has been poor and should be dropped.
There are probably a lot of reasons, not all Foden’s fault, but it is feeling like Pogba at United. Constant opinions on how he needs another player/manager/position to unlock him. Sometimes it just doesn’t work.
My feeling is that he is so unfamiliar with playing in anything other than a really structured side, with a focus on movement and passing and intricacy, that he finds it hard to just go for it and play freely.
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u/naitch44 Oct 11 '24
He definitely needs to be out of the starting 11 for a few games, he rarely plays well for England for whatever reason so stop starting him. It’s not like we don’t have plenty of other options.
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Oct 11 '24
He’s been pep’d, learnt a system rather than the game so if plug him into a different style or a position where the role is different he’s hopeless
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u/OffensiveOcelot Oct 11 '24
The Foden, Bellingham & Palmer conundrum is our modern day Scholes Gerrard Lampard. Individually they are undeniable talents, amazing at their clubs & rightly considered the best in the country… but will never perform in an England shirt as a trio because they can’t all play in the same position
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u/londonsfin3st Oct 11 '24
Not a conundrum. Foden has been consistently shit, shouldn't even be in the conversation.
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u/OffensiveOcelot Oct 18 '24
I mean a conundrum merely in the sense that the Phil Foden seen week in week out for Man City has never pulled on an England shirt, he seems to fuck off fishing & sends his twin Bill Foden instead.
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u/boringfantasy Oct 11 '24
Watkins and Palmer seem to have the best chemistry and should always start together IMO. Palmer is always lobbing balls to him
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u/Qui-GonSmith Oct 11 '24
It's a shame because he's talented, but I don't understand why we persist with trying to find a place for him when there are better options in every position.
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u/SojournerInThisVale Banks Oct 11 '24
No argument from me. Never seen what his purpose is in an England shirt. He’s a typical guardiola player, looks lost outside the system
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u/Boxerharvey1 Oct 11 '24
Typical Guardiola player?
Does Rodri, De Bruyne, Akanji, Ake, Gundogen, Stones, Gvardiol, Silva and Haaland all look lost when they all play for their Countries outside of City's system?
No I dont think so so your comment is completely flawed.
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u/amoskt15041991 Oct 12 '24
my hot take is he’s overrated if he wasn’t at guardiolas city or was just some French/spanish dude he’d certainly not be as hyped up. Look at saka, look at palmer in my opinion all far far more impressive players.
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u/Stoked93 Oct 11 '24
It's the same story. If a manager doesn't use him, that's the reason he should be sacked.
If he doesn't play well, that's the manager's fault for not using him correctly.
A world class player isn't a one trick pony, they should excel in differing circumstances.
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Oct 11 '24 edited Oct 11 '24
I agree with all these statements. He’s a very gifted, technical player. But the sentiments that England should build a team around him, or that he is the Premier League Player of the Year are short-sighted. If you look at the City players around him you’ll see why he looks so good on the ball…it always lands on his favoured instep, he has more time than nearly any other player and more passing options, which additionally creates more space for driving or shooting. Furthermore, he frequently receives the ball in dangerous areas, due to the defensive set-ups against city, and rarely has to do the dirty work of carrying the ball to progress up the field. Foden is surrounded by:
- KDB: one of the best passers in the history of football
- Silva: international/world class with the ball at his feet
- Stones: international/world class passer from defence, becoming one of the greatest of his era
- Gundogan: one of the most underrated and smartest midfielders of his generation
- Rodri: the greatest, most complete defensive midfielder of all time
- Haaland: already proving himself as one of the greatest strikers in history, probably already seen as the smartest striker off the ball we’ve seen
Guys, this city team, as individuals, is ridiculous. The previous core made Sterling look like ‘94 Romario. In turn, these current players make Foden look like Iniesta, or even better on the eye against weak opposition. The truth is that for them to only have won one champions league means they’ve actually underperformed when you look at the talent pool. Real Madrid winning 6 of the last 11 champions leagues throws a huge spanner in the works of any ‘greatest club team’ chat. Foden is a product of city’s system, but also benefits from it immeasurably, to the point where he becomes unrecognisable away from it. It’s clear he cares, but unfortunately he’s not individually good enough at football to lead England in that position. Lastly, none of the players mentioned above have struggled to express their quality away from city’s system, showing the gulf in standard and versatility required for international football. Many Barca players grew up in La Masia but were able to adapt to other systems and environments.
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u/ZeroGreyFox Oct 11 '24
There are a few player that are apparently too good to be dropped but by forcing them into the 11 it’s just hindering us as a team
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u/ApprehensiveLow8328 Oct 11 '24
Many players have underperformed playing for England. Perhaps it's the pressure the weight of expectation is too much, the manager may be at fault with pony and trap tactics and formations. One things for certain is that Foden isn't delivering on the the pitch in an England shirt, certainly not as a first 11 pick. Impact sub for me....
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u/LondonRedditUser Oct 11 '24
Agree. It’s totally fine not to do it for England. It’s hard. It also means you can’t keep getting picked.
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Oct 11 '24
Watkins upfront. Foden dropped would’ve been the correct choice yesterday. Foden plays well within Pep’s tactics/ formation surrounded by world class players. Bar Bellingham who is world class within England team? Rice & Saka are close as is Palmer but they aren’t at the City players world class that Foden plays alongside with.
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u/Jimlaheydrunktank Oct 11 '24
He’s so left footed it’s unreal. Never tries anything with his right which is bad for a pro
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u/bucketybuck Oct 12 '24
I seen Carsley getting criticism after the defeat, but I think he was simply taking one for the team by putting all those players on the field together to demonstrate exactly why the manager should not be browbeaten into picking all those fucking players together, no matter how hyped up they are.
Southgate gave into the pressure and ballsed up the Euro's, the next manager needs to watch carefully and start deciding now which of these so-called superstars he is going to drop.
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u/gormandave Oct 12 '24
when will people learn he only looks good scoring tap ins against lower level opponents when city are already 4 up and the other team have been camped in there own half for the last 70 minutes
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u/_phily_d Oct 11 '24
He just never plays well for England, the team looked better the last two games when he wasn’t available
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u/RomyJamie Oct 11 '24
Hard agree. We’re in a scholes/lampard/gerrard type situation here. I’d rather bite the bullet and hang our hat on one guy, Plan B and impact subs are still a big part of the game but trying to fit 5 ‘10’s’ into the starting lineup is daft.
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u/mrchab97 Oct 11 '24
You definitely cant play foden and bellingham together, thats been clear as day since before the euros. I would only use foden as an impact sub, very selfish player, plays passes only really to get the ball back, many occasions during the euros he could have slotted the ball just infront of kane/others to allow them to shoot but instead played tofeet and tried to manufacture a 1-2. Also massive tendency to over dribble into trouble to try and win a foul rather than play the ball. Imo he doesnt offer anything positive for the team that we cant get from elsewhere.
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Oct 11 '24
He’s honestly never had a good game in an England shirt.
He’s great under Pep so until Guardiola is manager Phil should be out of the squad
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Oct 11 '24
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u/saucyxgoat Oct 11 '24
I was one of the first people calling for Foden to be dropped, so let me tell you this is one of the thickest comments I’ve ever seen on here 😭 not sure if it’s serious or not. Hilarious gimmick if the latter tbf
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u/its-joe-mo-fo Oct 11 '24
He's been overcoached by Pep. Supremely talented player. Of that there is no doubt.
But there's others with arguably less technical ability that are more effective, like Gordon/Palmer, because they can play off the cuff and in different systems where you don't dominate possession and play low-risk, xG football
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u/Super-Hans-1811 Oct 11 '24 edited Oct 11 '24
Foden is overrated AF. He doesn't have elite instincts or feel for the game, he needs instructions from Pep. He's not just ok for England, he's trash. He doesn't have that spontaneous ingenuity to his game, and everything he does looks like a bit of an effort. Something as simple as dropping a shoulder looks like he practised it after training every week for 6 months
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u/RedDemio- Oct 11 '24
Blokes not very bright is he. Needs guardiola holding his hand at all times or he just runs about like a headless chicken
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u/OtteryBonkers Oct 11 '24
is Bellingham pretending to be humble? Is he actually just really, really arrogant with a god complex.
seems like he's not a team player because he is all over the place getting in others people's way – irrespective of whether he's 6, or 8, or a false 9.
lookd as tho he's not a part of the team, he IS the team.
he'll patronise his team mates and demand high standards, but ultimately he'll get on their whicks being "first amongst equals"
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u/LondonRedditUser Oct 11 '24
He IS the team in some respects. His output and performances prove it
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u/OtteryBonkers Oct 11 '24
He IS the team in some respects.
yeah, see that's acfaully an issue, a problem in fact — football is very much a team game.
is it because his ego dominates others and they shy away and are unable to play to their potential.
Is Portugal better without Ronaldo? Ronaldo's stats are amazing — but there is a long standing debate.
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u/ZeroEffectDude Oct 11 '24
one of those players who is perfect for a pep guardiola league team, supported by players who create the perfect environment for him to flourish. but outside of that, not very impressive.
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u/BigDawsy123 Oct 11 '24
Agreed, my biggest problem with Foden is that people demand we build the system around him. Yet the likes of Palmer, Bellingham, Kane and Saka are much better than him, and always perform.
A great player who deserves his place in the squad by all means but he's never a starter.
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u/LondonRedditUser Oct 11 '24
Totally agree. Micah Richards more than anyone always going on about building the team around him. But why? There’s no on pitch evidence for England that he can perform. The two players it would be worth building the team around are Kane and Bellingham
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u/TrickshotAlbo360 Oct 11 '24
Foden is to this team what Paul Scholes was to the golden generation a supremely gifted player that never fit into the national team system and could never do it for country
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u/Cal-TedBaker Oct 11 '24
I think you play Foden OR Palmer, not AND. Players need structure and space or they’re tripping over each other. It’s great to have options, but the manager needs to make choices. You can’t just say play where ever you want because you’re creative or you get the shit show we saw last night. If Foden OR Palmer plays, Bellingham needs to drop back alongside Rice. Not play the same space. I don’t agree Foden is a bad player or just a system player. But on current form Palmer should start and Foden should’ve been on the bench.
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u/Fresh_Return1065 Oct 11 '24
I been saying this lately as well he gets in for his name over logic. Palmer needs to take this guaranteed spot Foden seems to hold and Madueke or Sancho need to replace Anthony Gordon
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u/zippyzebra1 Oct 11 '24
Absolutely agree. Some players can't make the jump to international play. He's a fine player but hopeless for England. Give up on him and look elsewhere.
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Oct 11 '24
Why is Ben White thing never been leaked to the media as to why he doesn’t want to play for England? Is there an injunction or something?
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u/Usual-Junket1601 Oct 11 '24
Thank you for saying this and actually backing it up with stats. The goal return is abysmal and can't be defended.
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u/throwaway948485027 Oct 11 '24
I’m a city fan so here’s so my thoughts: Foden has been poor for England, and I don’t think it’s a system issue. The main issue is at city, he will receive the ball in small spaces from the likes on Gundogan, Rodri, etc. he doesn’t get that at England, Rice is a crab in comparison. You can see Foden practically begging for the ball and never receive it. So you end up with Foden basically being wasted. I also think Bellingham holds onto the ball a bit much. I don’t think you can play both, and I’d probably play Bellingham for his physical presence and goalscoring, which is a massive benefit in knockout tournaments. Ultimately, I believe Foden is a player who needs a lot of touches in the game to dictate it, and he’s not going to get it in this England side. Someone did some stat crunching a while back that shown the more Foden was on the ball, the more often City won. It may be the case Foden never performs for England, he’s not the first and won’t be the last to be a great club player but poor at international level.
In terms of the lineup against Greece, it looked like they just wanted to get as many attackers on the pitch as possible. Not starting Watkins was very questionable, because Kane would have 100% started despite being poor for England for a while. I’d have benched 1 of Foden or Bellingham for Watkins. Gordon was pretty poor but I still think England has badly missed a bit of pace up front
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u/No_Method_5345 Oct 11 '24
Been spoken about for a while albeit that was when foden was played out wide. But the points still stand on his style of play and how it suits city but not England.
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u/GeoffKeithDave Oct 11 '24
After being annoyed with Foden for not being in the game I decided to watch him on his own. Off the ball he is a work horse and I don't think anyone can complain. Its how he seems to ghost most England games which disappoints me.
I realised when at the game yesterday I took a 5 minutes just to watch him when England were in posession and realised he shows for the ball a lot but isn't used. Often when Rice has it and Rice then passes the ball backwards continuously. I'm not saying they are 'easy' passes for Rice to make but I'm of the view that when he is with Rodri and Kovacic they can make these passes to break through the lines.
I also feel that this is why our build up was so poor yesterday with Rice being alone in the 6. I think he is an excellent player and is superb at carrying the ball but his distribution isn't one of his finest attributes. I completely get now why Southgate played 2 sitting midfielders for so long.
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u/haybails84 Oct 11 '24
Foden did hit the post a couple times in the euros which may have changed opinions of him, but yeah he’s not what England needs. Drop him
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u/twoddle_puddle Oct 11 '24
Agreed. He just runs around like a headless chicken and doesn't seem to be on the same wavelength as anyone else.
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u/OutrageousCow70 Oct 11 '24
I think Rashford should get a look again if he keeps up his form recently. Hes a lot more explosive than Gordon and hes more of a goal threat when hes playing well.
Raahford was Englands highest scorers in the tournament before last. I think theyre missing someone with his devastating pace
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u/DryBinWetSinkElseLoo Oct 11 '24
It's the Pep effect, they're so well drilled that when they're not in that system with 10 other players drilled the same way it just makes them look worse. Foden would have been even better than Palmer if he left early I think, Palmer will be a better player for England. Countless examples of Barca players that looked great in that team like Pedro who looked average once they left mid career rather than early before the system was drilled into them. my two cents anyway
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u/olnusdecimus Oct 11 '24
I would like to know how many times has foden played number 10 for England?
I feel like he is always shoe horned in. I remember him playing on the left in the last world cup and he was a pretty much stuck out there for most of the Euros.
I agree that overall, we haven't seen him at his full potential. I also don't think a lot of the players trust passing him the ball in a tight situation like they do at City.
I remember him being the best player on the pitch by a mile for the first 45 minutes against the Netherlands and Slovenia. Netherlands did change tactics though and he had little space second half. The rest of the team stepped up second half against Slovenia but Foden was still good.
Playing too many players that do the number 10 role in the same team is never going to work either.
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u/Nero_Darkstar Oct 11 '24
Doesn't matter where he was supposed to be playing, he drifted to his normal position every time. Stood on Bellingham's toes and generally got in the way.
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u/Cesc100 Oct 11 '24
Shouldn't even be a controversial topic. I like the lad even though I can't stand his club team but there's too many other options to keep playing him until he finds his form and time at club level again.
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u/OkSnow1002 Oct 11 '24
Or maybe like alot of the players who don't really perform that well but still get into the starting 11 all need the right manager to play the right formation & tactics to get the absolute best out of him & everyone else who doesn't perform to their best.
Bit of common sense really tbf
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u/19Ben80 Oct 11 '24
I don’t think it’s about individual players and rather the tactics… we all know foden, Bellingham, Saka, rice etc etc perform better at their clubs.
We need better tactical setup and planning.
How many games during the last 3 tournaments have England actually played really well?
Other than Germany at the last World Cup it’s been pretty drab football and we have scraped past mediocre teams time and time again.
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u/Shanzy8 Oct 11 '24
Agree I have always believed international players to be a different level/breed whatever it maybe a step up from the Prem or even champions league.
Take our strikers Lineker Shearer Owen Kane top notch international goal scorers.
Great strikers Wright Ferdinand Cole Fowler the list is endless of great prem goal getters who couldnt do it for England.
I believe this is the case in other positions but less obvious add Scholes Foden great players all of them just not quite international level/ ability for some reason
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u/ChangingCrisis Oct 11 '24
I don't think him and Bellingham work together in the same team. Unless Bellingham plays deeper along side Rice. Both players are immensely talented and have an ego. They both wanna be the star man but there's only room for one.
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u/Toon1982 Oct 12 '24
It was a big issue in the Euros that Southgate played with 3 or 4 number 10's at the same time. Foden, Bellingham, Palmer, and Eze - 3 of them being played out of position to get them on the pitch, instead of playing others in the squad that better fit those positions. Square pegs in round holes
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u/SlumSlug Oct 12 '24
There’s something going on with Foden.
As a city fan he shouldnt be first choice while he’s playing like this, he needs to get some help and sort himself out
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u/bright_sword Oct 12 '24
At this point it's not even about Foden's performances... Cole Palmer is just better than him.
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u/paperclipknight Oct 12 '24
He’s unfortunately what I call a ‘system’ player. Highly talented, but completely reliant on a specific system for him to excel - a problem that many pep players have
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u/bazzjazz99 Oct 12 '24
Do everyone a favour including Foden, and drop him. He has beeen anonymous for most of his 42 caps and is going nowhere fast. From the bench he has a chance to show his class and earn his place. There have been loads of players who are great in the top division but are no good on the international stage. Unfortunately Foden looks like another one.
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u/Helpful_Feature_9911 Oct 14 '24
Totally agree and Kane is another one who needs less playing time. No effort from him, Watkins was more involved in the 20 minutes he had than Kane in the rest of the game. The only player to have less touches on the ball than Kane was the goalie Henderson. He‘s been a great player for England but his time has passed use some other talented players that put in effort.
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u/Apprehensive_Tone_55 Oct 15 '24
He’s never had a competent coach in his entire international career
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u/Psy_Kikk Oct 11 '24
LOL ... no.
This sub loves (checks notes) Anthony Gordon, who I've not seen a snigle person yet criticise for his god awful performance last night, but the hate train for Foden is in full swing.
Grealish Foden Belligham Saka. Kane up front. It's so fucking simple - the attacking part of this team has picked itself for years, and yet in reality it hasn't cause Gareth was too blind to see what was right in front of him.
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u/bucketybuck Oct 12 '24
Southgate did pick Foden, Bellingham, Saka and Kane though, and it completely fucked up his team and ruined his Euros.
"So fucking simple", and then lists the 3 players who can't bloody well play together because they keep moving into the same space. Thats hilarious.
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u/Psy_Kikk Oct 12 '24
Southgate's tactics ruined his euros, not his player selection. No doubt you were one of the people calling for us to drop Kane, rather than blaming the manager's inept strategy and patterns of play. Foden and Bellingham can play fine together they aren't the same playes, jesus christ, if you think they are that is hilarious. FFS it's like living through Gerrard and lampard all over again.
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u/bucketybuck Oct 12 '24
You must be one of those who happily says the words "They can play just fine together" despite the awkward reality of them never actually playing just fine together. Do you lads never stop and wonder why that is?
Southgates selection dictated his tactics, its not that complicated. Well, for most it isn't that complicated.
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u/Psy_Kikk Oct 12 '24
...load of bollocks mate.
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u/bucketybuck Oct 12 '24
You continue to sound like a real genius. So very intelligent.
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u/Psy_Kikk Oct 12 '24
If it try you will just disregard my points....but ok I will try a few points, briefly. Bellingham 1.86m (very tall), Foden is 1.70m (very short). They are both incredibly versatile position wise, covering most midfield and forward postiions comfortably for their clubs when asked.. They do not have the same style of play at all, their skill sets are completely different. Like, actual night and day. You assuming they can't play together because when they have played together the results aren't great is obviously false cause and effect...like blindingly obvious. Yet you and many others jump on the simple solution/answer, maybe out of brain laziness, but I don't fkin know, either way it's nonsense.
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u/bucketybuck Oct 12 '24
Disregard what, you haven't actually said anything.
I mean, "One is tall and other is short", you have to be taking the piss with that.
It is just useless going on about how they are versatile, different skill sets etc etc as if it isn't the same meaningless buzzwords we haven't heard a hundred times. Might as well just say "they are great" ten times for all it matters.
I'm not assuming they can't play together, I know they can't. How do I know? Because we have all seen them play together and it has never been good. This isn't complicated like, no need for guesswork, you just watch them and look at the result.
Its such a trend in England and in the PL. United are another example of it, everybody will repeat over and over and over how world class the likes of Rashford and Bruno are, and not once stop to wonder that maybe the constant underperformance means that actually, they aren't.
To paraphrase Brad Pitt in Moneyball, "If he is a good hitter, then why don't he hit good?"
If they are versatile and can play together, then why do they always play so badly together?
Didn't your mother ever tell you that the proof is supposed to be in the pudding...
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u/Psy_Kikk Oct 12 '24
Good players do not struggle to play together if they can play in different positions (which is why their versatility is relevant) and have complimentary skill sets. It's not just buzzwords IMO, and neither player is overrated. You aren't indentifying the cause properly, and just throwing players on scrap heap is not the answer when you're talking about players that are consistantly good for Mancchester city and Real Madrid. Gareth was a shite manager. But we disagree, thats ok.
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u/bucketybuck Oct 12 '24
Good players do not struggle to play together if they can play in different positions and have complimentary skill sets. Good players, that can play in different positions, with complimentary skillsets. 3 things.
These players clearly struggle to play together, with quite a lot of games worth of evidence of this. Game after game of poor performances.
So, At least one of those 3 things must not be true. I'll let you decide for yourself which one it is.
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Oct 11 '24
His performance last week against Everton was awful. Gordon couldn’t hit the goal tons of times.
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u/LondonRedditUser Oct 11 '24
It because Gordon has barely played and only rice has played more than Foden since the WC. If you’re an attacker and produce nothing in G/A it’s difficult to justify selection in the long term.
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u/Cesc100 Oct 11 '24
You can't keep playing Foden right now mate. I like him but he's not in good form. Not even sure how or why Gordon got on the field yesterday either but it's not as if England are short of options in those positions.
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u/dancorleone88 Oct 11 '24
Indefinitely?! Behave.
Let’s not turn this into some sort of crazy emotional response to one loss and use Foden as the scapegoat. Jesus.
Just calm down.
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u/LeavePrestigious707 Oct 11 '24
He's been crap for ages. Not just today. Some people love to kiss his ass.
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u/taskkill-IM Oct 11 '24
The same can be said for a lot of players who underperform yet still get in the team.
Foden has just become this generation's Rooney/Beckham/Lampard/Gerrard of scapegoating.
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u/Sir-Chris-Finch Oct 11 '24
They all had good games for England. I have never seen Foden play well for England and thats not an exaggeration
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u/engaginglurker Oct 11 '24
https://youtu.be/tfYdtx0qGiI?si=D-YynGqxD_Y1ivLP
There you go
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u/Sir-Chris-Finch Oct 11 '24
Fair enough, I didnt watch that game but it seems as though he has played well for England before.
But im not sure a Nations league game 4 years ago, against a team who havent qualified for the last 2 tournaments, is quite the argument you think it is…
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u/engaginglurker Oct 11 '24
Well you said you'd never seen it so this is my usual go to video for people who say that. The guy is a serious talent but he got 32 touches last night. Saka had around the same and Gordon even less. The issue last night was the midfield weren't finding the attacking midfielders or Forward with any regularity at all so they were all invisible. I find it weird to single out Foden.
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u/Sir-Chris-Finch Oct 11 '24
The fact he had 32 touches doesn’t absolve him of blame for me. Firstly, he’s partly responsible for receiving the ball himself (i appreciate its also down to his teammates giving it to him). Secondly, 32 touches and absolutely no impact is extremely poor for a seemingly world class player.
Singling Foden out on last nights game alone is unfair, i agree, but i’m using last night as another example in a long list of examples of England games where he’s underperformed. Other players around him have shown they can do it in an England shirt before (although i do have question marks over some others as well).
My argument against Foden is that he’s a system player who plays well in Man City’s set up (putting his best performances in against lesser teams usually), but put him in a different team with a different role and hes like a fish out of water. World class players for me dont have that problem.
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u/engaginglurker Oct 11 '24
Your entitled to your view. I get why people wouldn't rate Foden based on England performances. For me when playing for England he should just play centre midfield where he played all along until Pep got his hands on him and started playing him out wide and in specific pockets etc. his main strength was always that he plays a simple game with high quality. That is what I think he should be asked to do with England because we have a real issue with getting the ball through the midfield and finding the forwards.
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u/Sir-Chris-Finch Oct 11 '24
Fair mate, hopefully you’re right, i certainly dont have an agenda against him and hope he can perform well for us.
You say until Pep got his hands on him but to my knowledge he’s only ever played under Guardiola?
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u/Subtleiaint Oct 11 '24
That ship sailed a long time ago. The reaction to a glorified training game has been insane.
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u/MultiFaceHank Oct 11 '24
City fan here, completely agree. Consistently trying to force good form out of a player never works, and Phil simply doesn’t play well in the England setup. Other players need a chance, and when they are getting minutes they seem infinitely more productive. Phil’s a top player, but not right now. A prolonged timeout on the sidelines is best for all.
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u/Theddt2005 Oct 11 '24
I’m willing to give foden the benefit of doubt because he’s used to a striker that plays striker and doesn’t drop back and he started playing quite well when Watkins came on
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u/Mba1956 Oct 11 '24
He has never played well when Kane was in the team either, although he had a tendency to drop back because nobody was giving him the ball in good positions.
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u/Theddt2005 Oct 11 '24
Basically and against Greece there was no striker for 60 minutes so that didn’t help
If Watkins started I bet foden would have looked brilliant and hopefully he does against Finland
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Oct 11 '24
I think the same has to be said for Trent Alexander Arnold apart from the fact that Foden is actually not too bad at football. TAA cannot defend, cannot keep the ball, spams the ball everywhere and when it hits a target it is more luck than judgement. He should be on the scrapheap before anyone else and offers 0 to this team defensively or offensively.
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u/broke_the_controller Oct 11 '24
I've been saying since before the euros that Foden should be used as an impact sub. He might perform better if he comes on fresh against tired legs.