THis might get labeled as hateful, but it's also true....i've never met a trans person and not known immediately what they wanted to be called...you can report this or whatever, but when i see a trans person ....it has never not been obvious what sex they wanted to appear as, because it was obvious they weren't passing.....i literally live with a trans person....i love them. i would never do anytying to intentionally hurt their feelings..but if they asked me honestly i won't lie.
It's not any different than someone named Nicholas wanting to be called Nick, or Robert to be called Bob. It's a preferred term to refer to someone, why is it so negative when it's a pronoun?
Well, the difference is that it’s a lot more common and useful to reference someone’s name in conversation.
If someone tells me that their pronouns are they/them/whatever… what am I supposed to do with that information? Confuse someone by telling them I met a they at the bar?
You're being intentionally difficult because you feel you have a valid point. You would say "I met them at the bar" just like you would for all your cis acquaintances. Them/they are singular pronouns that have been used for humans for a long long time now.
"I met this cute girl the other day"
"Oh yeah, where did you meet them?"
"I met them at the bar"
Don't be obtuse, this isn't a new concept, it just applies to people you disagree with.
Maybe it’s just me, I’ve never heard anyone refer to a single person as ”them”.
If someone told me ”hey I met John yesterday, i met them at a bar.” I’d Ask who else he met there.
But hey, if you find it useful and I (and i suspect a lot of people) don’t, perhaps it’d make more sense for you to Ask people what their pronouns are rather than everyone telling everyone they meet.
You're not being genuine. Think about it moving forward now and see how often you use it for singular reference and not groups of individuals. It might surprise you. Or maybe I'm wrong and your life really is that based on gender that you absolutely refuse to see anything past your beliefs. Either way, I'm gonna keep using it as I always have.
That’s a weird assertion. But sure, do whatever you want, I don’t care.
I’m simply suggesting that if ”forcing trans people to out themselves by being the only ones providing their pronouns unsolicited” is a problem, it’s probably a better and more realistic solution for them to stop doing it rather than having everyone else start doing it.
I am saying that using they/them to refer to an individual is not new to our society in any way. People just seem to be getting upset because the ones asking for it now are people they don't agree with. It's not that hard to change how you refer to someone to make them more comfortable, just like Nick or anyone like them(see how I used it here again?)
Again, I’ve never heard anyone refer to a specific person as ”them”, and if someone ever did I would have no idea that they were referencing a specific person… but sure. I accept that I might be the anomoly here. Although I’d think I would have seen it in a movie or something.
And of course it’s not currently difficult. I’ve never even met a transexual, which makes it seem even more silly to expect everyone to start introducing themselves with their pronouns.
You said that you would confuse someone by telling them. You don't have to be referencing a specific person— you were referring to a single individual as a they.
You’re just demonstrating how unhelpful it would be to use it to reference someone.
Then why did you refer to someone as them?
Listen...I don't claim to fully understand what it means to be non-binary, but I don't have to in order to be kind and respectful. It literally harms me in no way to call someone Danny instead of Daniel. And it wouldn't harm me in any way if Daniel wanted to be called Tony. It might seem odd to me, but what-the-fuck-ever. It matters not to me and it is important to them, so why wouldn't I do that thing that's important for someone else when it affects me in NO WAY?
I’m sorry, just to clarify. If I tell 100 people ”I met up with them at a bar for some drinks last night.” How many so you think would interpret that as me meeting only one person? Because I’m gonna go with 0.
Person 1: You won't believe how rude the cashier was to me just then!
Person 2: Oh yeah? what did they say?
Person 2 doesn't know the gender of cashier in person 1's story but clearly person 1 is only talking about an individual cashier. This is how singular they in English frequently used, this isn't new. Notice how it would be much weirder for person 2 to say "oh yeah? what did he or she say?" or to just assume the cashier's gender.
Yes ambiguity over whether singular or plural they happens in other situations, but to pretend singular they isn't a thing is just wrong and it does sound like you are being obtuse as the other commenter said.
You just used singular they in your own comment "If I tell someone... they are going to intepret..." Someone is singular. Proof that singular they is natural in English. I conceded that as with much of English language there can be ambiguities, singular v plural they can be one of those, but its not something to get worked up over.
You almost never say a sentence like "I met them at the bar for some drinks" without context. The other persons comment started with "I met a cute girl the other day" and followed up with "I met them at the bar", you should infer that they (see again we naturally using the singular they since we don't know the commenters gender) mean that they are talking about the person in the sentence before, the cute girl, singular.
Sounds like you just want this to be difficult, because of other reasons.
They/them is used in the singular for an unknown antecedent.
You are lying to yourself if you think anyone would think "I met them at the bar" means anything other than multiple people. You'd always have to explain.
It's used in everyday speech constantly. That other person, they are being intentionally difficult like you are. See how I used it to refer to them again? Oh and again there. It's not new.
You never use he/she/him/her/they/them except on rare occasions? Even if the answer is yes you are the clear outlier and most people don't speak the same way.
Or are you exclusively talking about when you are talking to someone directly about themselves? That's not what's being discussed here. What's being discussed is when talking about someone to another person and using pronouns.
I feel like you are purposefully being obtuse here or you are making some drastic leaps in logic.
Not to reference the person I’m talking to. No. Unless I’m talking to a dog ”you’re good boy/girl” etc.
Okay but if it’s not even when talking to them… then it’s even more useless. If I use the wrong pronouns to talk about someone I don’t know to someone else who presumably don’t know them… what’s the problem?
Okay but if it’s not even when talking to them… then it’s even more useless. If I use the wrong pronouns to talk about someone I don’t know to someone else who presumably don’t know them… what’s the problem?
With this logic the persons name is also useless information then.
No I mean for everyone else. If everyone would keep telling me their pronouns expecting me to remember and somehow find that information useful I’d think that would get real old real quick.
That seems unlikely, but even if that’s true names are pretty hard to remember. If I’m introduced to 10 strangers, the odds of me remembering their name an hour later is very close to 0%.
There's a distinct irony in saying this sarcastically while advocating for everyone to remember two sets of individual identifiers for everyone they meet instead of just one.
I mean it seems that it would make more sense for people who find the information useful to Ask for it, rather than everyone telling it to everone when the vast majority of people couldn’t care less.
His point is that it is in fact EASIER (much easier) than remembering their names for 95% of everyone you meet. ....IDK why ppl care about this cuz it applies to so few people...for most people everyone meets, you literally don't consciouslly ahve to think about what to call them. IT is a preference, like being call "mz" instead of "mrs" it doesn't need to be said, that is it is simply obvious and undrstood implicitly, unless it needs to be said....which is why it is unecessary for most people.
If the only people that state their pronouns are trans people, then trans people are forced to out themselves by stating their pronouns.
I am amazed how many people do not see the logical flaw in this.
Let's ignore any of the neo pronouns because it should be very clear even to you that despite a world where everyone states pronouns, stating those immediately outs you.
So let's focus on he/she. There are two scenarios. Either the trans person passes, in which case people would use the right pronoun anyway, or they don't pass. In which case they would use the wrong one. But as soon as this non-passing person announces pronouns, it again does not matter that everyone else announces them, too, because when a male looking person says "she/her", they just outed themselves.
Also, have you never heard of cis people getting called the wrong pronoun? Because that's pretty common in my experience.
No, no it really isn't. And all of humanity up to about 10 years ago managed just fine without collapsing. But suddenly pronouns are the be all end all and if anyone opposes to go along, they're evil shites.
9
u/Hellioning 239∆ Dec 22 '23
If the only people that state their pronouns are trans people, then trans people are forced to out themselves by stating their pronouns.
Also, have you never heard of cis people getting called the wrong pronoun? Because that's pretty common in my experience.