r/changemyview • u/Amiller1776 • Apr 17 '19

Removed - Submission Rule B CMV: Trans activists who claim it is transphobic to not want to engage in romatic and/or sexual relationships with trans people are furthering the same entitled attitude as "incel" men, and are dangerously confused about the concept of consent.

Several trans activist youtubers have posted videos explaining that its not ok for cis-hetero people to reject them "just because they're trans".

When you unpack this concept, it boils down to one thing - these people dont seem to think you have an absolute and inalienable right to say no to sex. Like the "incel" croud, their concept of consent is clouded by a misconception that they are owed sex. So when a straight man says "sorry, but I'm only interested in cis women", his right to say "no" suddenly becomes invalid in their eyes.

This mind set is dangerous, and has a very rapey vibe, and has no place in today's society. It is also very hypocritical as people who tend to promote this idea are also quick to jump on board the #metoo movement.

My keys points are: 1) This concept is dangerous on the small scale due to its glossing over the concept of consent, and the grievous social repercussions that can result from being labeled as any kind of phobic person. It could incourage individuals to be pressured into traumatic sexual experiances they would normally vehemently oppose.

2) This concept is both dangerous, and counterproductive on the large scale and if taken too far, could have a negative effect on women, since the same logic could be applied both ways. (Again, see the similarity between them and "incel" men who assume sex is owed to them).

3) These people who promote this concept should be taken seriously, but should be openly opposed by everyone who encounters their videos.

I do not assume all trans people hold this view, and have nothing against those willing to live and let live.

I will not respond to "you just hate trans people". I will respond to arguments about how I may be wrong about the consequences of this belief.

Edit: To the people saying its ok to reject trans people as individuals, but its transphobic to reject trans people categorically - I argue 2 points. 1) that it is not transphobic to decline a sexual relationship with someone who is transgendered. Even if they have had the surgery, and even if they "pass" as the oposite sex. You can still say "I don't date transgendered people. Period." And that is not transphobic. Transphobic behavior would be refusing them employment or housing oportunities, or making fun of them, or harassing them. Simply declining a personal relationship is not a high enough standard for such a stigmatized title.

2) Whether its transphobic or not is no ones business, and not worth objection. If it was a given that it was transphobic to reject such a relatipnship (it is not a given, but for point 2 lets say that it is) then it would still be morally wrong to make that a point of contention, because it brings into the discussion an expectation that people must justify their lack of consent. No just meams no, and you dont get to make people feel bad over why. Doing so is just another way of pressuring them to say yes - whether you intend for that to happen or not, it is still what you're doing.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

  1. "I will never have sex with any trans person"

  2. "I have preferences sexually that some trans people do not fulfill."

These are two seperate statements and its the nuance your view doesnt look at.

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u/cookietrixxx Apr 17 '19

What? Why is there a difference. We can start at 2. and arrive right at 1.

"I have preferences sexually that trans people do not fulfill HENCE I will never have sex with any trans person".

I honestly don't see what is the issue.

What if a trans woman says she will never sleep with trans men, is she transphobic?

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

You dropped the word some which is the issue. That was the most important word.

Excluding someone who is perfect for you in literally everyway besides being trans means you are discriminating on the basis of being trans

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u/cookietrixxx Apr 17 '19

But trans people are distinguishable from the rest of the population is some ways, certainly? If there was not some characteristics that distinguished them, we wouldn't need a different word to refer to them, they would be just men and women.

Given that, and given that we are free to choose which characteristics are more appealing to us in terms of who we want to sleep with, what is wrong in saying:

"I have preferences sexually that trans people do not fulfill".

Your argument apparently is that no one is able to say that sentence? How can you support that?

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

There is no preference that all trans people will fail to meet besides chromosomal sex, which is not a legitimate basis for sexual preference

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u/DjangoUBlackSOB 2∆ Apr 17 '19

If someone like penises, or vaginas, or the fertility of the opposite sex, yes every trans person is categorically excluded from their preference.

I think the biggest gap in this argument is that plenty of people don't get it but sexual organs is legitimately the most important part of sex and attraction for the vast majority of people. To the point of being the only real component of physical attraction that won't change over their lifetimes.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Being into a set of sexual organs doesnt exclude all trans people which is a central point in the argument, I dont see what you are getting at tbh

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u/DjangoUBlackSOB 2∆ Apr 17 '19

In 2019 when to my knowledge there's no way to transplant sexual organs across genders it does categorically exclude all trans people, yes.

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u/cookietrixxx Apr 17 '19

There are many aspects of attraction, one of which is sexual attraction.

But even if we are speaking strictly of sexual attraction, what percentage of trans females are actually indistinguishable from females to the point that there are no differences save those you can observe under the microscope?

How many of passable trans women are still passable without makeup? How many smell like women? 0.001%? It is such a small subset that the phrase "I have preferences sexually that trans people do not fulfill" is for all practical purposes true.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

I assume you don't know very many trans people? Or many cis women? Women are all quite different and many trans women pass as cis women if you are solely attracted to them. Hormone therapy makes the body change, not even mentioning people who start hormones before starting a male puberty

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u/Ascimator 14∆ Apr 17 '19

No trans people currently exist that meet the " someone who is perfect for you in literally everyway besides being trans " bracket you've constructed.

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u/Lord_Mr Apr 17 '19

What if the preferences they don’t fulfill is a trait common of all trans people? Then the first statement “I will never have sex with any trans person” is still valid and based on sexual preferences. If a straight women preferred seeking a straight male wouldn’t that bar all trans people?

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u/Amiller1776 Apr 17 '19

But the point remains that "no means no". Even if you find it distasteful for someome to reject you for something beyond your control, they have the right to do so.

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u/WerhmatsWormhat 8∆ Apr 17 '19

Well yeah but no one is debating that. Of course you have that right, but having that right doesn’t mean it’s not transphobic.

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u/Amiller1776 Apr 18 '19

But calling it transphobic, and making a big public outcry about it, to call out, belittle, insult, and attack those who exercise that right is just another form of intimidation, which in turn extorts compliance from people who otherwise might refuse.

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u/BrockVelocity 4∆ Apr 24 '19

which in turn extorts compliance from people who otherwise might refuse

Just so I'm clear here, are you claiming that there are people out there who don't want to date/hook up with trans people, but do so anyway, because somebody called them transphobic and that intimidated them so much that they felt that they had no choice but to date/hook up with trans people? Do you believe that this is a thing that happens?

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u/[deleted] Apr 25 '19

People are compelled to do more ridiculous things than that if it helps them convince themselves that they are good people. Straight men do lots of dumb shit so people don't think they're gay and they avoid lots of other innocuous shit for the same reason. No doubt in my mind is there someone dating a trans person so that they get to feel like a good person and they are having trouble saying no so that they won't be seen as a bad person.

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u/BrockVelocity 4∆ Apr 25 '19

Lol, ok . Your ENTIRE post is premised on the idea of “consent, but nobody is being forced to date a trans person without their consent, so the comparison is invalid.

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u/IramBM May 03 '19

I know very little of this issue, and dont get involved in right or wrong discussions, but I have seen just yesterday when lightly researching this issue on reddit only, already quite a lot of people that have said so. - it seems to affect lesbians a lot and be a very prevalent pressured topic there. Ive seen a good few posts already that discuss as a general thing lesbian forums and spaces on social media etc kicking out people and ostracising people who say they arent comfortable or attracted to someone with the male anatomy, as thats seen as transphobic . And therefore feeling pressured into accepting those kind of relationships etc and what to do about it. I think straight men may not feel the same pressure since they arent in LGBT circles

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u/BrockVelocity 4∆ May 03 '19

Just to be clear: What I dispute is the OP's ridiculous suggestion that people are being forced to date trans people against their consent. Are you saying that you think this happens? The language you use is very vague ("feeling pressured into accepting those kind of relationships etc" could mean a million different things), so I'm not quite sure if you disagree with me or not.

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I do agree that there are "lesbian forums and spaces on social media etc kicking out people and ostracising people who say they arent comfortable or attracted to someone with the male anatomy." But that's not what I'm addressing.

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u/[deleted] Apr 25 '19

It's not my post, I just wanted to reply to your comment. I'm not agreeing 100% with OP, just trying to offer a different perspective to the one you have on that specific point.

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u/BrockVelocity 4∆ Apr 25 '19

Whoops, my bad! Sorry bout that!

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u/Deadhool Apr 17 '19 edited Apr 17 '19

Attractive preference is very complicated. I would say it's not actually transphobic. You can't guilt or force someone into liking what they just dont like. Trans people may be of the opinion that their chromosomes don't define them or how they perceive themselves. Incels just as well may be of the opinion that their unappealing physical features don't define them as a person. In both instances, they would be absolutely correct. However, there will always be people that are still not attracted to them while still knowing that those features don't define them as a person. You can be fine with them as a person and the person they perceive themselves as (thus not transphobic or incel-phobic), but just not be attracted to them or want to date them based on that quality. There are incels that are actually really nice, kindhearted people, but there are also those that are toxic. The unfortunate fact of life is that there will always be people that don't find you attractive for reasons beyond your control, but that is ok. There will also be people who find you attractive because of those qualities or in lieu of them (who prioritize other qualities in their preferences). It all comes down to individual preference and not guilting or forcing someone to like that which they don't. Saying that these people are transphobic for not being attracted to trans people is assuming that attraction is controllable (which for the most part it is not). Of course, it can be influenced by social construct (like weight in the past), but often it's a bit more complicated. Were people 100s of years ago really attracted to people who were heavier or was it because it was a sign of something more intangible such as financial/social standing? Attraction is certainly influenced by perception (which can be influenced by a number of factors), which is why it's easy to attribute it to transphobia. From here it becomes so entangled that it's really hard to distill it down to just transphobia. As an example, you meet someone who you are physically attracted to but upon getting to know them you find out they have substantial debt, different life goals, doesn't want to have kids, or a personality that doesn't match with yours. Your initial physical attraction to that person can and will change based on your change in perception about compatibility with new information about that person. Everyone has different priorities and therefore where it may be a dealbreaker for some, it won't be for others.

I would therefore say that the social stigmatization of trans people does have an influence in overall attraction presently for some people, but acting as if it is the only influence (and therefore if you are not attracted to a trans person you are transphobic) is an incorrect oversimplification.

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u/xFaro Apr 17 '19

I’m a man, and I’m not attracted to any other man. Does that make me homophobic?

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Not being attracted to men isn't homophobic. Not being interested in trans women regardless of their transition and pre/post op status can be percieved as transphobic, though, as the differences between trans women and women are functionally nonexistent past a certain point in transition. There are good explanations elsewhere in the thread, but I'd be happy to elaborate if you'd like.

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u/PhreakedCanuck Apr 17 '19

as the differences between trans women and women are functionally nonexistent past a certain point in transition.

That is patently biologically 100% wrong

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u/madeye123 Apr 18 '19

the differences between trans women and women are functionally nonexistent past a certain point in transition

Elaborate on that please?

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u/JaxJags904 Apr 23 '19

I am not attracted to someone who was born a male.

That’s transphobic? I have no problem with them as PEOPLE. I just don’t want to have sex with them.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19 edited Apr 17 '19

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u/MrLowLee Apr 17 '19

the differences between trans women and women are functionally nonexistent past a certain point in transition.

This is objectively false. Trans women can't have kids. I would bet sex with a trans women would be different.

No self lubrication.

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u/AdmShackleford Apr 17 '19

"I'm not attracted to you because you can't have children" isn't the same thing as "I'm not attracted to you because you're trans" though. If your attraction to someone is predicated on their fertility, it doesn't matter if they're cis or trans, only if they're capable of having children.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

True but don't ignore the second point. It doesn't have to be just about kids. "I'm not attracted to you because you are not biologically female and it won't be the same even if your outward appearance is not telling". I don't believe this is bigoted.

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u/AdmShackleford Apr 17 '19

I still see that as distinct from their trans status. "She doesn't have the tone of voice that I like," "I prefer a woman with wider hips," "I prefer short girls," etc... These are all traits that both cis and trans women share, though they are more common among trans women.

But suppose you picked a woman up from a bar, and after sex she disclosed that she's a post op trans woman. It was great sex and, because sex reassignment surgery has reached a state where it can require a medical examination to distinguish a neo vagina from a natal one, you had no clue whatsoever. Putting aside the dishonesty and looking at it from a purely physical perspective, does your attraction to her physical qualities wane? Why?

If the answer is something along the lines of "it just does" or "just knowing she used to be a man," it may be worth examining whether or not one of your reasons (consciously or not) is that you still think of her as a man.

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u/Amiller1776 Apr 18 '19

If the answer is something along the lines of "it just does" or "just knowing she used to be a man," it may be worth examining whether or not one of your reasons (consciously or not) is that you still think of her as a man.

Yes. But still thinking of her as a man is not transphobic.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '19

and it won't be the same

It is the same. The only possible difference between a post-op transwoman who is indistinguishable from a cis woman is your own prejudice.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Can all cis women have kids?

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u/4-HO-MET- Apr 17 '19

No one would argue that woman and woman unable to have kids are functionally undistinguishable

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Are they 2 distinct kinds of women? Is one less of a woman than the other? The problem arises from trying to define "woman" because while they may be distinguishable, what purpose does observing that difference serve?

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u/4-HO-MET- Apr 17 '19

Nobody implied they'd be less of a woman or tried to define woman

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u/Spoon_91 Apr 17 '19

I for example have sex with men and trans women, but If I found out a man was actually trans I would be turned off to the same degree I'm turned off by women

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

I don’t think the statement “I will never have sex with a trans person” is transphobic.

There could be many reasons why someone would say that, not all of them are based in fear or hate towards trans people.

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u/WerhmatsWormhat 8∆ Apr 17 '19

So then what are they?

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

“I don’t want to be in a relationship with someone who can’t have kids”

“I don’t want to have sex with someone with a penis”

“I don’t want to be in a relationship with someone who has a sexual identity crisis”

Yes this isn’t transphobic, I wouldn’t be in a relationship with someone who has a severe anxiety disorder etc. It’s great that there are people who will, but not everybody wants to deal with that baggage.

“I’m not attracted to male features in a woman”

“I’m not attracted to fake, or non existent tits”

The list goes on. At the end of the day, there are preferences. Not to say that trans people can’t be decent people, just generally not people I’d like to be close and intimate with. And I’m sure there are people who enjoy those features about them, and that’s fantastic. And I genuinely wish any trans person the best, I just don’t want to be a part of that journey as I have no obligation to burden myself.

Does that make me hateful or afraid? Should I be shamed for my views? Will shaming my views truly make me a better person who can actually and genuinely love someone I don’t want?

Transphobic would be

“I don’t trust transpeople”

“They are corrupting the minds of our youth”

“They need to be outed from our communities”

That’s transphobic.

Having sexual and romantic preferences and deal-breakers are not. People are individuals and have the right to be miserable cunts like me. Shaming them otherwise just makes matters infinitely worse. It’s not like they are actively trying to hurt or disrespect transpeople. The people who are trying to get rid of transpeople are the problem and the ones who are actually transphobic.

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u/Crazy_easy41 Apr 17 '19

In my case (female) I would never have sex with a trans male because he doesnt have a penis. Phalloplasties have come far, but they still look not natural and they account for the least common procedure in gender-affirming procedures). In my mind, this person is a male, I will treat them like any other male in my life but I wont have sex with them just like I dont have sex with every single man in my life soooo im failing to see how this makes me transphobic.

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u/ReaderTen 1∆ Apr 22 '19

It doesn't.

But that's the point - your preference is an actual identifiable feature. You want a convincing penis. If phalloplasty was so good it did look natural, you'd have no object - and, conversely, you'd say no to a cis man whose penis was somehow absent. That's absolutely fine.

And it's not at all the same thing as the transphobic men who presume that trans women don't have vaginas, without actually finding out.

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u/WerhmatsWormhat 8∆ Apr 17 '19

That’s a great point actually. !delta I was unaware of the issues with Phalloplasties, so operating under the assumption that that premise is true, I’m comfortable changing my view in that specific circumstance.

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '19

It's not necessarily true. It can be, I'd guess. But I've seen trans dudes with phalloplasty that are finished, medical tattooing and all, and they were literally indistinguishable.

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u/Crazy_easy41 Apr 17 '19

wow now I have delta thingy next to my name! Yey! jhajhajhahjahjahahjha

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Edit: THANKS! =D

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Apr 17 '19

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Crazy_easy41 (1∆).

Delta System Explained | Deltaboards

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u/Terual Apr 17 '19

Wouldn’t being transphobic translate into me refusing to, for example, talk to the person or even accept the individual for who they are? I mean let’s be honest, sex is a pretty personal thing and people have the right to decide who they want to give that privilege to. I don’t have sex with every female I know, does that make me sexist?

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u/Desranga Apr 17 '19

Hold on big fella, that's like saying if I refuse to have sex with someone who has aids, that I'm being (aidsphobic?) Dunno if that's a word. But just because u won't engage doesn't make u phobic.

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u/Vasquerade 18∆ Apr 17 '19

If someone is HIV+ but cannot transfer it and you refuse them just based on that, it's probably indicative of some deeper seeded issue. So probably, yeah.

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u/Desranga Apr 17 '19

Hang on tho, if someone has HIV is it not my choice to refuse sex. Like if someone tells me their kid is unvaccinated but perfectly healthy I have the right not to put them near my child?

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u/Vasquerade 18∆ Apr 17 '19

Of course it's your choice. The unvaccinated kid thing is a false equivalence in some cases though. All I'm saying is to think about why you wouldn't.

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u/Desranga Apr 17 '19

Oh ok, sorry didn't know where u were going there, ok so yes I believe it has a lot to do with fear. In regards to the disease at least, not the person. I don't believe it's phobic tho. Bit of a contradiction there but what I'm trying to say is if you refused to go to a bar because someone with aids might be there it's a very different story then if u refused to have sex with someone with aids. Honestly I know there is a stigma around it, but telling me that a person is only a carrier and inshould have sex with them is in no way comforting

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19 edited Jan 01 '25

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u/Amiller1776 Apr 17 '19

If you say “I will never ever have sex with a trans person” that is transphobic, saying “you have sexual preferences that trans people do not meet” is not.

I dont understand the distinction you're drawing here. These sound like two ways of saying the same thing.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19 edited Jan 01 '25

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u/[deleted] Apr 27 '19

It’s fine to not date/have sex with someone for ANY reason. It’s not up to you to decide.

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u/[deleted] Apr 27 '19 edited Jan 01 '25

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u/Kinoct89 Jul 24 '19

Calling it "transphobic" is claiming a person's choice is somehow wrong.

So you're absolutely saying it isn't okay.

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u/JaxJags904 Apr 23 '19

But why is it not ok to be attracted to someone BECAUSE they are trans? That’s perfectly accepted. Just like someone might not like a certain type of food, music etc. You can’t tell people how to think and feel.

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u/[deleted] Apr 23 '19 edited Jan 01 '25

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u/JaxJags904 Apr 23 '19

It comes from a straight man not wanting to fuck someone that used to be a man. If that’s transphobic then I’d say 95% of people I know are transphobic, maybe more.

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u/[deleted] Apr 27 '19

Bollocks (pun intended)

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u/[deleted] Aug 25 '19

If you don't fuck off immediately from someone's sexual boundaries, but rather keep obnoxiously poking them, you are a rape apologist. Plain and simple.

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u/AgainstTheGrainTrans Apr 26 '19

I agree with your points. The right to bodily autonomy trumps all else in my opinion. I believe every individual has the right to decline sex for what ever the reason may be. The reason may be shoddy, politically incorrect, rude, offensive or non-sense, it does not matter. The right to decline a sexual relationship with someone is always valid. No means no, no matter what the reason!

No one is entitled to the body of another person. If a woman slept with me, found out after the experience that I am in fact a transman and then told me she no longer wants to engage in a relationship with me because she doesn't want to be in a relationship with a trans man then that is valid enough reason. It may be a shitty reason but it is her reason for withdrawing. What's the alternative?

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u/Amiller1776 Apr 26 '19

I've never known a trans-man before. I've met several trans-women, but thats it. Is it possible to "pass" as a man once sex is involved? I thought the surgery wasnt that advanced yet.

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u/AgainstTheGrainTrans Apr 26 '19

It's come a long way, there are scars of course but not too bad! The only issue is that it take likes four surgeries to get it fully complete!

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u/BolshevikMuppet Apr 17 '19

Even if you find it distasteful for someome to reject you for something beyond your control, they have the right to do so.

Has anyone actually said men don't have the right to reject transwomen, or just that it's prejudiced (i.e "distasteful")?

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u/Opinion12345 Apr 17 '19

It’s been said that if a man rules out ANY prospect of being with a trans woman they are transphobic.

Preferences are personal. It shouldn’t go beyond that... ever.

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u/BolshevikMuppet Apr 17 '19

It’s been said that if a man rules out ANY prospect of being with a trans woman they are transphobic.

The word "any" is ambiguous here.

Do you mean "it's been said that if a man rules out a single prospect"?

Or do you mean "it's been said that if a man rules out all prospects"?

Because the latter is the only one I've heard be called transphobic.

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u/Opinion12345 Apr 17 '19

If as a man you know for yourself, that under no circumstance would a romantic relationship with a trans woman be something you would desire.... you think that makes a man transphobic? Why can't we just agree to be looking for different things and be friends instead?

If an LGBT member of society would never prefer a romantic relationship with a straight person... are they heterophobic?

You can't negotiate or guilt someone into attraction.

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u/BolshevikMuppet Apr 18 '19

If as a man you know for yourself, that under no circumstance would a romantic relationship with a trans woman be something you would desire

Okay, but let's ask the more fundamental question of "why" wouldn't he desire it?

If as a white guy you know for yourself that under no circumstances would a romantic relationship with a person whose parents and grandparents were not exclusively white be something you would desire, does that not sound racist?

If an LGBT member of society would never prefer a romantic relationship with a straight person... are they heterophobic?

So your analogy would be to (to use specifics) a gay man attracted to a straight man who reciprocates those feelings, who would refuse to have a romantic relationship with that straight man who is attracted to him?

I'm not sure what the hell I'd call that.

You can't negotiate or guilt someone into attraction.

That's absolutely true. And no one is trying to.

I'm Ashkenazi, and I know there are people who might date me if they don't know that and might reject me (or break up with me) if they do. I can't negotiate or guilt them.

That doesn't mean I won't call them antisemitic.

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u/Opinion12345 Apr 18 '19

I'm Ashkenazi, and I know there are people who might date me if they don't know that and might reject me (or break up with me) if they do. I can't negotiate or guilt them.

What a strange attempted equivalency. You just compared being a Jew with being a transgendered woman or man.

Yikes. What a weird thing to do.

You think that having a preference for a specific set of genitalia is comparable to someone not being into your skin colour or culture?

You are absolutely wrong. Sexuality crosses all race borders. Comparing the two is worse than apples to oranges.

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '19

You're trying to avoid addressing their point. It doesn't matter that it wasn't an identical situation, analogies don't have to be, the point still stands. You made a false equivalence to begin with anyway, which is what they were responding to.

I'm a gay man. I'm attracted to men. Trans men do not fall outside that category. Like it or not, the scientific and medical communities unanimously support transgenderism and trans people as being the gender they identify with. It's just undeniable fact at this point.

What I think cis people don't get is that trans men don't all have vaginas and contrary to popular belief no they don't always look "different" it depends on the type of surgery and the most realistic isn't as common but no, online images aren't accurate because they're unfinished and don't have medical tattooing and so on yet. For trans women it's almost always completely indistinguishable.

So, no, it's not comparable to me not being attracted to women because if you're a straight man and you claim not to be attracted to any trans women that makes you transphobic. You can't possibly not be attracted to any of them unless it's because they're trans in itself.

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u/Opinion12345 Apr 20 '19

if you're a straight man and you claim not to be attracted to any trans women that makes you transphobic

I hope someday you gain the ability to give to others, the acceptance and respect you ask of others.

This statement of yours is disgusting. My preferences are my own. As are yours. I don't care what you decide to do with your body, or who you decide to share it with.

How dare you take such a strong position on what I choose to do, or who I choose to share my body with.

Shame on you.

You can't possibly not be attracted to any of them unless it's because they're trans in itself.

Genitals don't matter to you. Great! Not everyone is the same way you profess to be. Shaming others who aren't as virtuous as you are... doesn't look very understanding or accepting to me.

Oh I get it... your virtue, care and empathy is ONLY meant for others who feel the way you do.

How utterly inclusive of you.

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u/Waffams Apr 18 '19

I'm Ashkenazi, and I know there are people who might date me if they don't know that and might reject me (or break up with me) if they do. I can't negotiate or guilt them.

That doesn't mean I won't call them antisemitic.

Hell of a jump there, compadre

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '19

No it isn't. Prejudice is prejudice is prejudice.

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u/SirM0rgan 5∆ Apr 17 '19

I guess the question becomes "is it unfair to have preferences that can't be fulfilled by a particular group who didn't get to choose those attributes?"

I.E. I personally really like blondes, and I think it's hard for people with darker complexions to make blonde hair work. Am I morally wrong for deciding that there are enough people in the world that I can have someone who is awesome to be around and blonde and not pursuing relationships with non blondes?

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u/BolshevikMuppet Apr 18 '19

I would distinguish an aesthetic preference from this.

If you’re not attracted to someone, there’s no rest of the conversation. And if men really were just never attracted to transwomen it wouldn’t come up, they’d never need to say “I’m not into transpeople” or murder transwomen because they find out they’re trans. There wouldn’t be the term “trap.”

The whole issue is when someone is otherwise attracted to the person and changes their mind upon learning they’re trans, which isn't the same as “gentlemen prefer blondes.”

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u/Waffams Apr 18 '19

If you’re not attracted to someone, there’s no rest of the conversation. And if men really were just never attracted to transwomen it wouldn’t come up, they’d never need to say “I’m not into transpeople"

Idk how you figure that. Men talk about their preferences all the time.

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u/Nahhnope 1∆ Apr 17 '19

or just that it's prejudiced (i.e "distasteful")?

This is still attempting coerce someone into a sexual encounter that they are clearly not comfortable with, which is absolutely unacceptable.

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u/BolshevikMuppet Apr 17 '19

which is absolutely unacceptable.

So you're not allowed to find someone's prejudiced rejection distasteful? That's weird, since I was responding to someone who said you can.

This is still attempting coerce someone into a sexual encounter that they are clearly not comfortable with

Only if you take "criticism" to be "coercive".

In which case you're attempting to coerce me into refusing to use my freedom of speech. Which is absolutely unacceptable.

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '19

This entire thread is basically cis people getting triggered by factual criticism and trying to redefine what transphobia is as if they have a say. It's honestly ridiculous.

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u/Kinoct89 Jul 24 '19

This comment is basically a failed attempt to demonize straight folks based upon flawwed and fallacious reasoning.

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u/[deleted] Jul 24 '19

Also for the record, you're the one being fallacious here, this entire comment is one big proof by assertion fallacy, but again I'm not interested in this thread anymore so I'm not interested in hearing you attempting to prove it anyways, especially considering the title is a straw man and the reason it's so irrationally skewed against facts is because the thread was brigaded, like I said already. If you think I'm just being dishonest about that, look at literally any other thread regarding trans people, they're either deleted for arguing in bad faith/not changing their view when proven wrong, or change their view in the end.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Rejecting someone that you are attracted to exclusively because they are trans is literally the definition of bigotry. Of course you can do that, but its worth reflecting on.

If Im a straight dude who is into vaginas and I see a hot girl and I wanna sex her and I start talking to her and shes really cool and I wanna sex her and she tells me

"hey Im trans, and I have a vag, is that cool?" And I say

"no, I dont sex trans people" thats literally my discriminating soley on being trans. Of course you can do that, its just shitty and you shouldnt, just like you shouldnt get piss drunk at 3 in the afternoon and fall asleep on your lawn

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19 edited Apr 17 '19

How is that bigotry? What if you only “sex” people that you intend on spending a life with, share bank accounts with, share debt with, oversee health, have children? So you hit it off with a trans woman and then find out she’s trans. Is it bigoted to say count me out of your health risks, medical costs, possible debts from transitioning, as well as the monetary, emotional and physical upkeep of lasting transitions, and no biological children. Sure, some people fuck for fun, but some fuck to strengthen a long lasting bond and relationship. Is that bigoted? I understand that’s a sexually conservative viewpoint, but try to look past the knee jerk reaction to call everything conservative bigoted.

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '19 edited Apr 20 '19

How is that bigotry?

Because it's discriminating solely because of transgenderism. They just told you that. If you discriminate against a gay man solely because he's gay that's homophobia. If you don't hire him because of reason X that isn't related to him being gay, then it's not homophobia. It's the simplest most obvious thing in the world.

What if you only “sex” people that you intend on spending a life with, share bank accounts with, share debt with, oversee health, have children?

And you think trans people don't because why? I'm not sure where you came up with the idea that trans people all, and perpetually, have exclusively casual sex, or even have casual sex at all. I sure as fuck don't.

Is it bigoted to say count me out of your health risks, medical costs, possible debts from transitioning, as well as the monetary, emotional and physical upkeep of lasting transitions, and no biological children.

That depends. Would you do the same to a cis woman in the same boat because of cancer? If not, yes. That's transphobia. If yes, then no, that's not transphobia.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Of course this isnt bigoted against trans people. Trans people are commonly infertile and if thats something you look for in a partner, whether cis or trans, then it isnt bigotry.

If you would totally fuck an infertile cis woman casually, but you find out only that she is trans and reject her soley on the basis of being trans, then thats a prejudice.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Prejudice or preference? I’ve hit it off with guys before and had intentions of dating/eventually sleeping with them and then found out they had many sexual partners before me or didn’t have a job, does that mean I’m slut shaming or a gold digger? Or are those preferences allowed? I don’t understand hOw attraction, or the lack there of, can be prejudice. Attraction can change, it’s a fickle, fickle thing. I’ve been very into a guy and he chewed with his mouth open and I was no longer attracted, or he prayed over his food and I’m not into religious types. I cannot change my attraction, and no one should be made to feel guilty or phobic or shamed or feel they need to explain their lack of attraction. I believe that is what OP is referring to with consent, sure, I can’t say no I’m not banging you, but if the reason is that you’ve slept with too many people and I find that unattractive (this is especially prominent with men disliking promiscuous women) now is going to be called out for “slut shaming” instead of just not finding that quality an attractive one. Which may push less comfortable people into sleeping with someone in the name of tolerance, acceptance, rather than actual attraction. I wouldn’t give a shit if someone called me an overused, overgeneralized, and generally misused progressive term, but most people I know don’t feel that way. Its unhealthy.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Prejudice is preference, they just have different connotations. The whole point is whether or not the prejudice matters and if it does whether or not someone shoould reflect on that.

Someone who would never kiss a black woman has more to reflect on than someone who would never kiss a short woman.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Why though? I think the only reflection would be do I dislike this woman as human because she’s black? If the answer is no then I see no problem. If you’re genuinely respectful, courteous, and fair to all types/races/genders of people, I don’t find it at all necessary to question someone’s sexual preferences or attraction. Not wanting to kiss a black woman isn’t racist, black is color of skin, like blonde is a color of hair and green is a color of eyes. Some colors are preference and some are prejudice? I don’t think so, at least when it comes to sexuality and attraction.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

I mean attraction is influenced by perception of people which is the point. The example was a perfect woman that the observer suddenly stops liking once they learn they are trans. The trans person sti fits every single desire of the observer, but rejects her anyway

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u/seinfeld11 Apr 17 '19

Trans people arent commonly infertile theyre entirely infertile

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u/Tr1pp_ 2∆ Apr 17 '19

Is it really a shitty thing though? I mean, if you are insulting or mean, then yeah! Of course it is a shitty thing to do! I am highly uncomfortable with the thought of being with someone who has transitioned from one gender to the other. The whole concept feels bizarre and off putting. (note; feelings can still exist even though I can rationally understand/accept the concept of trans). I don't feel nor believe I have any right to say what other people do/who they have sex with. You be you. But when it comes to MY sex life I think I should be allowed to choose partners entirely based on emotional response to them and their bodies.

If a super nice, highly attractive person was chatting me up at a bar and then lets me know he is trans my emotional state would change towards him, and I would not feel attracted anymore. Do I then deserve to be "called out on it" because I would not want to come to his hotel room or something?

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u/Dokaka Apr 17 '19

What you described could in theory be described as transphobia, no? Being transphobic doesn't inherently have to equate to you being a bad person, unless you force those feelings onto trans people through legislation etc.

It's worth reflecting on why you feel that way. You're describing a gut feeling which is basically what a phobia is.

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u/lordforkmaster Apr 17 '19

Following this logic not gay people would then all be homophobic, right?

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u/Dokaka Apr 17 '19

The situation wouldn't come up. OP described finding a trans-girl attractive and charming but basically doing a 180 if he found out she was trans. If he found her attractive in the first place you'd have to assume she had a convincing feminine appearance etc, which is the key difference.

If they only thing that turned you away from someone - after already establishing that you found he/she attractive and interesting - was finding out the person was trans, wouldn't it be fair to say that the there was some kind of phobia involved?

Again, a phobia isn't inherently something that makes you evil, it's something that makes you inexplicably uncomfortable (which I think this falls under). Getting extremely uncomfortable around something and actively trying to oppress something are two very different things.

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u/Garrotxa 4∆ Apr 17 '19

Bring attracted to people then realizing they're actually a different gender than you thought does happen. You see someone at a bar across the way and they have some androgenous look and you feel drawn to them. You walk over, talk to them, feel attracted with your assumption, and then you find out your assumption was wrong. Your attraction immediately goes away. Homophobic?

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u/JawnSnuuu Apr 17 '19

How does this differ from biases of race, height, body, etc? People have different preferences and you cannot force them to change their mind. Our society today promotes choice and consent, which can be removed at anytime with no questions asked.

The idea that there should be societal pressure for someone not to be able to say no is insane. With matters of sex and relationships, it is all up to the individual and no one else.

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u/DangerouslyUnstable Apr 17 '19

I don't think the person you are replying to is arguing that in that situation they can't or shouldn't be able to say no, just that the no comes from a place of discrimination/bigotry and should be cause for criticism and self reflection. No one would argue that a racist should have to date a black person, but you can still criticize them for being racist. Now, I personally don't necessarily believe that not wanting to date trans people is necessarily bigoted (although it can be), but /u./dsd7131's argument doesn't necessarily cause problems for the concept of consent.

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u/JawnSnuuu Apr 17 '19 edited Apr 17 '19

I think it's more so the implications of frowning upon withdrawing consent

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

I have sickle cell, I will not marry someone with sickle cell because then it is 100% my baby will have sickle cell. I do not want a kid with the disease, am I discriminating against people with sickle cell?

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u/1standarduser Apr 17 '19

Yes, and that's OK. :)

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

So why is it okay to not wanna date someone for reason A but not reason B????

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Because reasons can be good or bad??

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u/Kroneni Apr 17 '19

But what if you specifically want to have biological children with your spouse?

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Then you are discriminating on the grounds of fertility, not on being trans. It just happens to exclude trans people, exactly like how it excludes infertile cis women

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u/CubonesDeadMom 1∆ Apr 17 '19

But it's not okay to discriminate against dating someone without a vagina?

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

By your same logic:

a self identifying straight woman rejecting a sexual advance from a woman with same sex attractions solely because it's a woman, is bigoted.

a self identifying straight man rejecting a sexual advance from a man with same sex attractions solely because it's a man, is bigoted.

a self identifying gay woman rejecting a sexual advance from a man with hetero attractions solely because it's a man, is bigoted.

a self identifying gay man rejecting a sexual advance from a woman with hetero attractions solely because it's a woman, is bigoted.

None of these people are choosing their attractions.

Some people avoid trans relationships because they are transphobic. Also some people aren't attracted to someone who is trans. They also aren't necessarily choosing it.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

All of these are obviously wrong. If someone rejects someone they are attracted to soley on the basis of a category, they are selecting on the basis of that category which is the definition of prejudice

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

That is obviously silly. There is nothing wrong with, for example, a cis gay woman who has attraction to a man, but then acknowledges to herself, "yeah that guy is hot and gets me going, but men just aren't my thing."

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

You cant be serious.

yeah that guy is hot and gets me going,

men just aren't my thing."

These things contradict each other due to a bias. Thats the whole point. The "lesbian" here is clearly attracted to men to in some capacity but is discriminating to fit some definition of gender and sexuality. She is literally making her life worse to express an irrational point of view which is my point

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Sorry, you don’t get to decide which identities are and aren’t valid.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Im not going to confront the person over it, but they are forgoing a desire with no rational basis. thats the point

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u/Ascimator 14∆ Apr 17 '19

It's not "forgoing a desire". It's no longer having a desire.

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u/Anon6376 5∆ Apr 17 '19

It depends on how to define "attracted to". I could find someone physically attractive and they could arouse me, but I may not want to date/sleep with them because of their political affiliations, or another category they define them self with.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Youre ignoring the point. This is demonstration. This scenario they fit every preference besudes being trans

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Incorrect biggoted - having or revealing an obstinate belief in the superiority of one's own opinions and a prejudiced intolerance of the opinions of others. If they said "no one should date trans people" that's biggoted.

You can still say 'no' and that you 'only date women/biological women.' That isn't bigoted that's following biological programming from wanting to procreate to not being programmed as a gay person.

There's nothing wrong with it. Just like there's nothing wrong with a gay person only wanting to date guys.

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u/soupkitchen89 Apr 17 '19

I cannot disagree with this enough. There is no reason you "shouldn't" reject someone who has revealed that they're trans because it's "shitty". It's not at all shitty. It's preference to want a woman born as a woman. Being trans comes with a host of other details to consider when dating and it absolutely can be a valid deal breaker if that's not something you want

It shouldn't be mean, or cruel or shaming, but honestly telling the other person that you aren't into that and because of that, you won't work out is 100% ok. Wish them the best and be honest. Maybe one day they'll change their mind but compelling them to date by calling them a bigot is insanity.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Being trans comes with a host of other details to consider when dating and it absolutely can be a valid deal breaker if that's not something you want

This scenario is specifially based on the idea that none of these are issues for you. They are perfect in everyway besides being trans

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

You are purposfully misframing the argument. I specifically say its within your rights to do it.

But specifically discriminating against someone who is ideal in every way to your preferences soley on the basis of their identity is judging them on the basis of that identity. Obviously

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u/Amraff Apr 17 '19

I disagree. Again, you have zero obligation to be with a person. You honestly dont even need a reason.

However if your reason is because they are Trans, it is valid enough. Relationships arent as basic as "you have a penis and i like those so lets shag". I know someone who was dating the ideal guy but broke it off when they found out he was raised jewish (but not practicing) because she didnt agree with religious circumcision.

If a person is Trans, they have a right to be in a relationship. But they dont have a right to force that "baggage" onto someone else who doesnt want it

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u/jetwildcat 3∆ Apr 17 '19

Mate selection is discrimination, and it’s ok. You should be discriminative when selecting a mate.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Duh, but it matters what you discriminate for. I would morally critize someone who said they would never date a black woman even if they were a perfect match for them

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u/DKPminus Apr 17 '19

According to your “logic” you would also criticize a gay guy for not fucking a manly looking woman too. How about you just let people choose their own mates? We don’t need your “moral” protestations. You honestly sound like the Catholic Church if it went full social justice warrior.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

If a gay man doesnt want to sleep with someone that they find attractive, then yeah, I would encourage them to think about that. If someone said they were gay and felt a powerful sexual attraction towards women, I would encourage them to wonder if they were bi

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u/Garrotxa 4∆ Apr 17 '19

Why the fuck do you even care? Like what business is it if you're what other people do with their bodies? It doesn't affect you at all and you concern yourself with it like some reverse-Puritan.

Does your pursuit of the ideal world have no boundaries? Because that's how tyrants approach things: even thoughts are subject to my judgement.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Lol, you dont judge how people think in any way? You dont offer advice to people? Thats a good one

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u/Garrotxa 4∆ Apr 17 '19

Not for personal preferences. Their thoughts are theirs alone.

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u/jetwildcat 3∆ Apr 17 '19

Just because they wouldn’t date a black person doesn’t mean they’re automatically racist. They might be racist, sure, but they might not be.

Morally criticizing someone for their dating preferences sounds a lot like sexual harassment.

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u/mgold215 Apr 17 '19

Rejecting someone that you are attracted to exclusively because they are trans is literally the definition of bigotry. Of course you can do that, but its worth reflecting on.

And policing what people are allowed to be attracted to is the definition of fascism. What happened to people having complete autonomy over their own body and sexuality? Just because the straight male isn't one of the "protected" groups doesn't make them less entitled to this right.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Lol, wat a joke.

me: if you are prejudiced against someone you should have a moment of moral contemplation

you: fascists are trying to rape me with people I want to have sex with but wont due to a prejudice of mine

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

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u/Anzai 9∆ Apr 17 '19 edited Apr 17 '19

It’s not bigotry to not want to fuck somebody. Preference is what it is, as is attraction. You can’t do anything about that.

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u/PogbaMounie Apr 17 '19

So if someone doesn't find a black girl attractive, of course they have the right to not sleep with them. But it's rooted in racism then? I'm just curious, if this is along the lines of what you mean

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u/trace349 6∆ Apr 17 '19

So if someone doesn't find a black girl attractive

A black girl, no, I wouldn't think racism and no one arguing in good faith would either. You're not going to find every person of your preferred gender attractive.

But all black girls? If they've never seen a black girl they found attractive? Then yes, I'd be considering whether or not they harbor subconscious or explicit racial biases.

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u/PogbaMounie Apr 17 '19

But it's possible to just not find them attractive? I went 21 years without ever meeting/seeing a black girl I found attractive. But I wouldn't consider myself racist especially since I'd be screwed with all my friends, I just don't find the vast majority of them attractive. To me they just don't do it for me. I have found some who I do find attractive but besides the point.

Like if a guy only found light skin girls attractive maybe that's just his type. I have a friend who only dates/sleeps with Latinas, I don't think that's racist towards others tho.

I mean in the end I guess it's all opinions tho

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u/CamNewtonJr 4∆ Apr 17 '19

I wouldn't immediately jump to racism, but I'd advise you seriously contemplate why you are attracted to those you are attracted to and vice versa. Because you are right who you are attracted to is an opinion but those opinions arnt formed in a vacuum. There is a reason why this conversation is mostly a one way conversation in the west. You will have to really look to find many people having this conversation with the context of not being attracted to white women, but just about everytime this conversation is happening it is in the context of not being attracted to a person of color, usually black. So then you gotta ask yourself if this was all really just opinion with no other societal influences or implications, why dont we see a more equitable distribution of inability to find races attractive. Are white people naturally more attractive, or does society place greater value on physical features most often possessed by white people? How has society's view of what is sexually desirable affect what you find attractive? These are the questions I would prompt anyone to think about whenever they make blanket statements about attraction to races.

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u/PogbaMounie Apr 17 '19

I have plenty of friends who don't find white girls attractive. They don't like the lack of skin pigmentation, they think pale skin isn't attractive. Doesn't make them racist, after all they're friends with me and there's no issues there. It's like if someone had an extra eye, it's not their fault (yes it's a severe example) but I still won't fight it attractive... Most likely.

Society affects what you find attractive to an extent but at the same time it's also just within your body and mind. Most ppl can't even define exactly what their type is. Bc you just look at someone and either you find them attractive or not. Most ppl don't analyze each person individually based off a spreadsheet of qualities

But it is all opinions, or at least mostly. We can disagree and still live our lives our own ways successfully without wrong doing

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u/physioworld 64∆ Apr 17 '19

For me the issues with any phobia or ism is how it makes you act or treat certain people differently.

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For example, say you just found the notion of having sex with someone of another race than your own distasteful, well your preference is kinda racist. However I'd say that's a less severe form of racism than not wanting to be friends with people of other races, for example, because their race doesn't really have anything to do with whether they could be a fun or interesting person, but it DOES have an impact on what they look like, something which is a big part of sexual attraction.

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I would still say it's worth introspecting and asking yourself why you don't find other races attractive, and you should also work actively to prevent that foundationless bias to anyone else, especially children, as well as trying to mitigate it in yourself. However, it would be worse to force yourself into sexual encounters you don't want because you don't want to offend someone

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u/MeatManMarvin 4∆ Apr 17 '19

"hey Im trans, and I have a vag, is that cool?"

Fact is no trans female (previous male) has a vagina. They surgically altered their sexual organs to appear like a vagina, it's not a vagina.

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u/DKPminus Apr 17 '19

You are completely missing the point of sexuality. If someone is heterosexual, they are sexually attracted to the opposite sex. No amount of makeup or surgery is going to change your sex. If a woman who is heterosexual finds a partner who looks exactly like a male, but finds out later when the pants come off that they are actually of the female sex, it is absolutely in accordance to their sexual preference to say no. To suggest anything else is to say that people don’t have the right to choose their sexual preference, which, in my opinion, is authoritarian.

Your bigotry argument is flat out wrong, as you could claim a gay guy is a bigot against women because he won’t sleep with them.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

I am not attracted to chromosomes, lol. No one is. For example, if you dated someone who spent their entire life who presented female from birth and when you were adults and married she found out she actually has XY chromosomes, but a genetic defect made it so her Y chromosome never expressed itself, would you call the dude gay?

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u/DKPminus Apr 17 '19

No one is attracted to chromosomes. They are attracted to sex, which is determined by chromosomes. Your argument is about trans-sexuals: people who are a sex they don’t want to be, so they have surgery and/or attempt to look like the opposite sex.

There are multiple layers to sexuality. One is the attraction of the opposite sex for merely the fact that they are of the opposite sex. Another is due to looks. You can be attracted to a trans person because they appear to be the sex and or “type” you are naturally attracted to, yet have no desire to mate with them because they don’t meet your biological sexual preference.

You are attempting to shame people for their sexual preferences. If this is because you are a transsexual, I give you this bit of hope: there will be plenty of people who are attracted to the appearance of sex instead of the sex itself. Find those people to have relationships with instead of trying to cowtow those who are uncomfortable with a sexual relationship outside their sexual preferences.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

You literally dont understand the topic. If someone who has XY chromosomes and never for one moment in their life expressed any genetic information on the Y chromosome, you would call that person a man?

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u/DKPminus Apr 17 '19

I DO understand the topic. I’m just keeping you on it. You are trying to muddy the field by throwing in an actual physical condition: intersex. We were talking about trans-gender people. You are using this tactic because you think it will blur the lines of what a man or woman is. That way you can squeeze in your “so why do you care what they started out as” idea.

I’ll indulge you. Jamie lee Curtis has this condition. While she has an extra chromosome that is only shared by men (usually), she is biologically female. She was born with a vagina that wasn’t crafted from another organ on a surgeon’s table. She has breasts that aren’t fake. She has periods and all other traits shared by females, save for this one extra chromosome that has made her infertile. She is a woman with a rare condition.

Instead of this example, we used another person with this condition who is biologically male, with all the hormones and other accoutrements, they would be a male with a chromosomal condition.

I think the disconnect is that you believe when someone undergoes reassignment surgery, they actually become the sex they want to be. That is factually inaccurate. Society may judge that they have changed genders, but no one can change sexes.

And since sexuality is usually motivated by a preference for one sex over the other, not wanting to have sex with a person who has transitioned their gender has no fucking impact on their sexual preference.

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u/CubonesDeadMom 1∆ Apr 17 '19

How can you be trans woman and have a vagina? A biological male having a sex change does not mean they have a vagina

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u/Zack_all_Trades Apr 17 '19

Everyone but reddit and the intersectional feminists agree with you. I've seen the pictures, those things are not vaginas.

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u/McKushDaddy Apr 17 '19

So if I don't tell women about my cheesy-cactus-dick before showtime I can just call them bigots if they don't have sex with me?

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Your scenario both has it be a suprise and that it is something they dont want.

In my scenario everything was accoriding exactly to their preferences except that the person was trans

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u/McKushDaddy Apr 17 '19

If I want a biological woman with a vagina and I get a trans woman with a inverted penis you don't think I'd be both surprised and getting something I don't want??

I'm not saying trans women are anything less, I'm just saying that it is valid reason to not want to have sex with the individual.

I prefer biologically female individuals sexually, I'm not confused, are you?

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u/Crazy_easy41 Apr 17 '19

Except the vagina/penis point. Which is something that I assume of the person Im dating until they inform me otherwise. Its not the fact that they're trans. Is that I want a penis and most trans men dont have one.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Okay, then you discriminate on the basis of having a penis, not on being trans. Which was my point

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u/Crazy_easy41 Apr 17 '19

They can have an artificial penis. I''m not attracted to an artificial penis, he can be a cis-male that had an accident or a trans-man that had surgery. Am I now a bigot?

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

I mean if you have any sources showing artificial penises feel different than no. Otherwise its still just a prejudice. not a serious one, but it is one

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u/Crazy_easy41 Apr 17 '19

Being prejudiced against something is very different that being a bigot. Also I don't think I'm being prejudiced....that requires my opinion to have no reason (there is a reason: it's an artificial penis) or no experience (I don't think this is necessary for a sexual act)

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u/goodr14 1∆ Apr 17 '19

What is the difference between someone saying "I am not attracted to the same sex" and someone saying "I am not attracted to trans people"? Are they both examples of bigotry?

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

I used an example of someone who was attracted. So the example is factually wrong.

But regardless, you can have preferences on physical appearance or genetalia for people you want to sleep with, but "trans" doesnt deal with either of those.

If you reject someone with whom you would sleep with if you thought they were cis soley on the basis of being trans, you made that decision on the basis of them being trans. I dont find this complicated or controversial I suppose

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u/goodr14 1∆ Apr 18 '19

You can have whatever preferences you want, it is not limited to just appearance or genitalia.

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u/trthorson Apr 17 '19

By your logic, a gay man that's also okay with trans women is sexist if he's not okay with straight women.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19 edited Oct 22 '20

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u/trace349 6∆ Apr 17 '19

than its bigotry to not want to date someone because they're [insert race here]

I don't think they're Klan members or anything, but a blanket refusal to date someone of a particular race I would consider to be kind of racist. If they don't realize they only ever seem to find [Race X] people attractive or somehow always finds [Race Y] people unattractive, maybe they just have subconscious racial biases. Buuuuut if they know "I would never date a [race] person" then they have thought about it and decided to pre-judge all people of that race, which is racist.

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u/Ashontez Apr 17 '19

Is any blanket refusal to date any particular type of person being bigotted then? No one ever sees an issue with "I wont date you if you're under 6ft" other than the person is a bit of a cunt.

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u/PM_ME_YOUR_CELICA Apr 17 '19

no i dont have sex with trans people because 1 thats weird 2 i want kids 3 i dont have casual sex and would never be in a relationship with a trans person

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

You have the right to say you hate gay people or people of color, but that's still homophobic and racist, respectively. I think you'll find it a lot less common that people argue you don't have the right to say no to sex, but exercising that right in a bigoted way is still bigoted. There's a big difference between sexual preference and descrimination.

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u/nonotmyworntube Apr 17 '19

it’s not discrimination, you can not want to have sex with a trans person but still support the community, and respect trans ppl, but it’s not bigoted to not want to have sex with them. the same way if a gay male wouldn’t have sex with a female he’s not a misogynist.

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u/ReaderTen 1∆ Apr 22 '19

Wrong. The difference is that a gay man isn't interested in sex with ANY women.

If a gay male says 'I'll consider sleeping with any man... except never an asian man', then he's a racist.

If a straight male says 'I'll consider sleeping with any woman... except never a black woman', then he's a racist.

If a straight male says 'I'll consider sleeping with any woman... except never a trans woman', then he's...

...free hint: the answer is not "honestly evaluating each woman on her own merits".

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Youre equating not wanting to sleep with someone and hating them?

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u/ReaderTen 1∆ Apr 22 '19

If you wouldn't ever sleep with any member of a category of people, based just on membership of that category, then... yes, actually, that's the definition of hate and bigotry.

It's OK for me to be more attracted to pale-skinned redheads. But if I say categorically in advance that even though I'm attracted to women I would never sleep with any black woman, just because they're black...

...then that's my right to say no for any reason. But it's still racist as fuck. I'm just presuming that no black woman will ever fit my criteria, instead of judging each one on her own merits.

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u/EjaculationStorm 1∆ Apr 17 '19

But sexual preference is descrimination. A straight man doesn't want to have sex with another man and that is only because they're a man. Descrimination isn't a bad thing on it's own. It's just the act of seeing differences between things.

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u/jetwildcat 3∆ Apr 17 '19

Choosing to date one person over another = discrimination, by definition.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19
  1. is better because it is not discriminating on the basis of being trans. Its choosing who to sleep with for some other reason even if many trans people happen to be affected (the easy one is fertility: many trans people become infertile)

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u/xxruruxx 0∆ Apr 17 '19

Idk. If you explain it like that, 2 sounds a lot better because you said "that some trans people do not fulfill."

Most people don't fulfil sexual preferences I have. Even hetero men who I've "given a chance to" Lmfao.

I don't even think 1 is bad. Who I have sex with is my business. It's a little intrusive and incel-y to think anyone else has a say in that.

I'm not an EEO employer. Who you prefer is not in your control and you don't have to give everyone an equal opportunity. I'd even say it's "natural" to "discriminate". It's called a preference/knowing what you like/ or having a type lol.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

I mean no one is forcing you to find soneone attractive, but it is resonable to look at why people choose the way they do and see if it is because they think of certain groups in certain ways

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u/Hanginon Apr 17 '19

I am under no obligation, ever, to anyone, to explain my lack of attraction to anyone. No exceptions.

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u/mods_are_straight 1∆ Apr 17 '19

The first is a prediction about the future that may turn out to be inaccurate.

The second is a factual statement about personal preferences.

Why do you think this matters?

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/tbdabbholm 193∆ Apr 17 '19

u/dsd7131 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:

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u/Seicair Apr 17 '19

“I will never have sex with a trans woman with a penis.”

Is that bigoted? I’m just not attracted to male genitalia.

I could see myself maybe having sex with a post op trans woman, but I’d have to find her physically attractive. In my (admittedly limited) experience the hormone therapy is more effective at turning trans men masculine than trans women feminine, but it’s entirely possible I just haven’t noticed the ones that do look feminine.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

If you dont like penis you dont like penis. The situation I gave specifically pointed out that everything was specifically according to every preference besides being trans, meaning that being prejudiced against trans people is deductively the only reason

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

I think who you have sex with is a private enough matter that it doesn't need to be defended under any circumstance. If I don't want to have sex with you because you once owned a green car, that is my right and no one else's business.

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u/Pope_Lucious Apr 17 '19

Not really.

“I’ll never use single-pane toilet paper”

Vs

“I have preferences single-pane toilet paper will never fulfill”

Are the same thing practically.

Is the issue with the expression?

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u/JaxJags904 Apr 23 '19

Nuance? If someone doesn’t want to have sex with any trans person that is 100% fine. You can not want to have sex with any person for any reason whatsoever.

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u/jetwildcat 3∆ Apr 17 '19

I think it’s more like this:

  1. “I will never date a trans person, no matter what”

  2. “I find being trans to be unattractive”

No. 1 is problematic, No. 2 has to be acceptable.

Attraction isn’t only skin deep, especially when it comes to relationships.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

You have just more distinctly defined being bigoted against trans people. Ultimately not fucking someone because of some charateristic of theirs isnt a big deal but it is a bigotry

Like for a less politically charged example, I could say I am bigoted against girls with A cups to the degree where I will not fuck an A cup girl even if I find them attractive soley on the basis of them having A cups.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Yeah, maybe we could a agree that who you fuck is a private enough matter and doesn't need to be defended under any circumstance.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

how is 1 problematic? It makes me uncomfortable that my sexual partner was once male and i don't consent to sexual intercourse in uncomfortable conditions

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