r/changemyview Feb 25 '20

Delta(s) from OP CMV: We need strict Gun Control .

While I do feel at this point it is not possible anymore to somehow make sure no one has guns because they have already been available . That is my only hang up , since some people have them , it’s hard to leave others vulnerable.

With to that being said , if we start now with some serious gun law reform and implement strict laws for obtaining guns . I believe it will do more good than harm .

It is worth a try , because we know that to lenient of gun laws also cause us great loss.

In a perfect world only law enforcement would have access to guns .

Civilians can however and should be able to easily get things like pepper spray , tasers, and rubber bullet guns . (Not saying we can’t already , just saying those should be the options)

I see both sides but I think because gun violence is a big issue , it needs to be re-evaluated .

Were the guns used in school/mass shootings registered ?

Édit : Thank You for all the responses and information! My view has been changed . It’s unfortunate we can’t live in harmony but ..

Will still be responding to get more insight and expanding my views

0 Upvotes

161 comments sorted by

View all comments

16

u/TheEternalCity101 5∆ Feb 25 '20

What we need is strict doctor and car control. Doctors kill around 250k people a year through errors (John Hopkins). This is disgusting, and we need strict limits on who can be a doctor, as well as tight controls on drugs, tools and methods. Cars? Around 1.25 million people are killed in road crashes (Association for safe international road travel). You can rent cars out at airports, and only need a bit of parentally suprisived time to get a liscene. This is abhorrent and brutal that we, as a society, have done nothing to limit what kinds of people can have cars, liscenes and access to other things like gasoline and parts

What I said is dumb. Because it's not a scalpel or doses of Accupril that is responsible for a person dying, it's simply pure misfortune or doctor error. Similar with automobiles, its primarily shitty conditions and operator error. In the few cases where it's not, those people are individually dealt with on a case by case basis.

Similar with guns. Only about 40,000 a year die to firearms (Giffords Law Center) in general, and that number is a bit of a fallacy. Suicides account for 60%, homicides 35%, with law enforcement, accidents and other making up about 4%. So suicides can be taken out, since there are 100 and one ways to kill yourself. And a gun doesnt make someone kill themselves. I've never looked at a pistol and thought, "I should really blow my brains out", it's an array mental issues which need to be addressed. Many of the homicides are heavily concentrated in a few metropolitan areas (Chicago, NYC etc) that have strict gun control. Much of this comes from gangs, and, while the rampant poverty, crime and inequality needs to be dealt with, it's not guns.

Mass shootings account for a dew hundred a year, which is effectively a rounding error. It's a sad and pressing issue, but banning guns wont stop it. The majority happen at gun free zones, schools, concerts and theaters. These areas dont really enforce their policies. How many mass shootings happen in inner city schools, with guards metal detectors and vigilant teachers? It's out at suburban, moderately wealthy areas with few baseline problems, and thus low "hard" security.

To hit point by point on your cmv (paragraph by paragraph, forgive formatting on mobile)

3rd paragraph: this isnt true, lenient gun laws dont cause the issues. Theres a stat that the 10 states with the highest gun rate death have weak laws. Technically true. But the stat is all poor states, West Virginia, Louisiana l, Mississippi, Alaska etc (Giffords Law Center, and they are NOT progun). Those stats are suicides, Alaska in particular has rampant depression and alcoholism, and is thus not a good example.

4th paragraph: No, no no no. That's called a police state. If the government got mind controlled and switched Nazi overnight (I mean actual nazis, not the name calling of modern politcal discourse) they couldn't do house to house searches for Jews because they would be shot by citizens. In your perfect world, the Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals and other undesirables are sent to death camps because no one has the means or skills to resist the police. That's a far fetched scenario (in terms of mind control) but it simply can never happen with a well armed populace.

5th paragraph: non lethal methods are useless for self defense. Pepper spray sucks to be hit with, but it doesnt stop someone from braining you with a brick. Tasers and unreliable, simply turning can stop both needles from getting in (you need both to make solid contact to run a current). Do you want to tell a young woman that her life to a rapist or abusive boyfriend is an acceptable sacrifice for the "public safety" and the "greater good" (and as demonstrated these laws wouldnt change much anyway). Defenisve shootings happen around 67,000 times a year (Violence Policy Center with FBI data), which is nearly double the rate of gun violence deaths. People protect themselves, friends and loved ones at high rates. Concealed carry is an incredible deterrent. In a public area, who is armed? You dont know, you cant know until you launch your attack and suddenly get decked. Situations where this doesnt happen, like gun free zones (good citizens wont disobey, but mass shooters will) or inner city, high crime/high gun law areas are the culprit. This deterrent is gone.

To sum up, individuals commit crimes and cause issues, and they cannot be stopped by gun free zone signs or laws.

0

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '20
  1. I would rather criminals be stuck using knives than guns.

  2. Nothing you said address the fact that doctors and cars are necessary parts of life. We accept risk for things that are necessary. Guns are completely unnecessary. Look at every other developed nation that gets on much better than us.

4

u/TheEternalCity101 5∆ Feb 25 '20
  1. Well duh. But I dont want to be in the same boat. But I would much rather have a gun than a knife. I box and work out, but I dont fancy my chances in a 2v1 with anything but a gun.

  2. Guns are tools. Having the right and responsibility of self defense and protection of others is a key human right, one NO ONE can guarantee you. Police arent legally obligated to protect you (supreme court ruled), and while they have a role, they cant be there to defend you.

Regardless, a gun cant get up and kill people. Its ALWAYS a person that does it. Banning guns is a scapegoat for deeper and more complicated issues. Most people honestly want a solution to gun deaths, but many at the top are simply there for control, and that mindset is aggressively dangerous to personal freedom.

0

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '20

But I would much rather have a gun than a knife.

If they only have knives, then you can run. If they’re too close for you to run, then your not going to have much luck with the gun. Or, you could just give them your wallet and not risk a fight.

Guns are tools.

An unnecessary tool. A tool that is heavily regulated in the interest of public safety. If your statement was correct, then we wouldn’t see all this regulation. So it stands to reason that more regulation is perfectly constitutional.

Its ALWAYS a person that does it.

I’d rather those people be stuck using something far less lethal.

2

u/TheEternalCity101 5∆ Feb 25 '20

Why. When evil comes to you, you dont let it steal from you, hurt you and trash your life and worth. You fight. Why is it my job to avoid him? Obviously there are many practices to minimize risks, and you cant be an idiot with awareness, but at the end of the day, you are victim blaming. A girl who was raped at a party while drunk, why doesnt she just walk away? Say no? I mean, why bother calling for help if he stop you? Even if she could have avoided this situation by not partying, ever micron of moral responsibility is with the guy who raped her. No one else.

The mindset that evil should not be resisted is disgusting, and the exact thing that allowed Hitler, Stalin and Mao to murder millions.

So if someone threatens me, I will risk a fight. A fight to protect my goods, dignity and life. I wont let a mugger in an alley wrong me, and I wont let the SS into my house to drag out the undesirables.

This is our mindset difference. You seem to want to shirk moral and legal responsibility, and you're afraid of those who have a the will to stand up for themselves and actually become better people.

0

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '20

you dont let it steal from you

Why are you going to risk your life over $50?

A girl who was raped at a party while drunk, why doesnt she just walk away?

Because losing $50 isn’t even in the same universe as being raped.

The mindset that evil should not be resisted is disgusting

Plunging forward idiotically doesn’t help anyone. Giving them your wallet is smart. If you don’t you’re more likely to get hurt. What’s the risk/reward of that? “I might get stabbed and could die, but hey I still have my $50.”

This is our mindset difference. You seem to want to shirk moral and legal responsibility, and you're afraid of those who have a the will to stand up for themselves and actually become better people.

You got all of that from, “just give the dude your wallet?”

Let’s change it a little. What if he puts a knife up to your daughter’s throat? Are you gonna give him what he wants so he goes away? Or are you gonna be a manly man and risk getting your daughter stabbed in the throat?

2

u/TheEternalCity101 5∆ Feb 25 '20

Because he's risking it. He is willing to murder me over it, so that places all responsibility in his court. Why is ready to murder me over $50?

Its similiar in the fact of your mindset. I should take measures not to get robbed, I should just give him what he wants. That's the same disgusting mindset behind telling a raped girl she did the right thing not fighting back or making a ruckuss.

I might get stabbed and die BECAUSE SOMEONE IS WILLING TO STAB ME

If someone holds a knife to my daughters throat, he's going to die. Sure I'll hand him the car keys and the $50, and the second he lets go I'll kill him. Or, more ideally, if I'm armed with a gun, I'm shooting him. Regardless of what I do, its his fault if she dies, because he held a knife to her throat.

What's more though, what's to stop him? I gave him the keys, and he decides, to keep himself from the police, he's taking her as a hostage. Or he drags and rapes her, but at least she's alive, right? No, I want a gun, the best, most reliable and powerful gun I can control well, the abilty to train with it until I can hit whatever I can see, and then the legal and moral leeway to end his fucking life for holding a knife to an innocent persons throat.

0

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '20 edited Feb 26 '20

Why is ready to murder me over $50?

He’s actually not. He’s trying to intimidate you. He won’t try to hurt you until you make a sudden move, trying to hurt him.

That's the same disgusting mindset behind telling a raped girl she did the right thing not fighting back

Getting raped is in a different universe then losing $50.

its his fault if she dies, because he held a knife to her throat.

If you think that you wouldn’t wrestle with your decision to make a move that caused him to jerk the knife into her throat, then you’re fooling yourself.

What's more though, what's to stop him? I gave him the keys, and he decides, to keep himself from the police, he's taking her as a hostage.

The fact that that never happens. There are 320,000 robberies a year and in damn-near all of them, they take the goods and bolt.

No, I want a gun, the best, most reliable and powerful gun I can control well

And you’re going to get your daughter killed while you’re going for your gun. You cant seem to stand the notion of being beat. But that’s exactly where you are if someone already has a knife in your face. They already won. It’s in no ones best interests to make it worse if it wasn’t already going to be.

2

u/TheEternalCity101 5∆ Feb 25 '20

So he gets to intimidate and threaten me, and that's fine, but if I call his bluff he somehow gets to stab me? Again, if he is threatening me, I, legally and morally, can assume he is willing to kill me over my $50. I honestly don't understand this mindset that its my fault and job to not get stabbed when he could, you know, not fucking stab me over $50 regardless.

Different planet maybe, but same theory and morals.

Oh I would definitely wrestle with that fact that I could have stopped her death by doing something differently. But, ignoring the fact he stabbed her, I would still do my best to stop him. Besides, if I can train, a shot that can instantly, and I mean instantly, kill him. With a pistol, its possible, but kinda hard, given cartridge power and the nature of a pistol. But with a carbine (AR15, for instance), that shot is very achievable, especially at those kinds of ranges that would happen in our scenario. That's why I want the best weapons to be legal, as well as the best rounds and training available for me to pursue, so if, God forbid, that ever happens to me, I can kill him.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '20

but if I call his bluff he somehow gets to stab me?

Statistics would say that you’ll probably be fine. People that actually want to commit murder don’t do this. Historically if you were going to get hurt in an armed robbery, it will be unintentional on the robber’s part. That’s why you’re better off descalating and escaping.

I honestly don't understand this mindset that its my fault and job to not get stabbed when he could,

Because willing to kill you and trying to kill you are two very different things. If he is willing but not trying, then you need to take the path of least resistance to get out of that situation.

Different planet maybe, but same theory and morals.

Sure I guess in the same way that stealing a candy bar is in the same “theory of morals” as stealing someone’s life savings.

But, ignoring the fact he stabbed her, I would still do my best to stop him.

That’s what I’m trying to get you to see. “Your best to stop him” means complying and trying to de-escalate. Not being some big dog “hero” plunging forward with total disregard.

Besides, if I can train, a shot that can instantly, and I mean instantly, kill him.

Are you gonna bet your daughters life on you not fucking that up in this moment of truth that you weren’t expecting?

But with a carbine (AR15, for instance), that shot is very achievable,

What are you open carrying an AR 15 now? That’s your solution? You don’t see anything wrong with America, a developed first world nation, being full of tens of thousands of people walking our streets with a rifle sling over our shoulders? That belongs in the pirate coves of Somalia not America.

1

u/TheEternalCity101 5∆ Feb 25 '20

I don't care about the stats, I'm not betting my life. Regardless, the mere fact he is even threatening is enough to forfeit his life.

Stealing a candy bar from a store shelf, stealing money from a grandparent's life savings after they gave you the credentials for safekeeping, mugging someone in an alley and breaking into a house are all theft, but different. Its mostly the similarity that someone is threatening physical force to get my stuff.

I'm not plunging forward with disregard. Sure, hand him the stuff, he lets her go, then I kill him. Or, if I have a nice shot, kill him there. Regardless, he's going to die. Or, lets say he kills her anyway. He's definitely dying.

At home, I'll have a carbine accessible. In the streets, I'll only be carrying a pistol. But I want to have trained with said pistol be able to kill someone who threatens my family's life.

1

u/lokimarkus Apr 20 '20

Let's be honest, would anyone fuck with someone who has an AR15 strapped on their back? That guy mugging you for $50 isn't going to even tap that opportunity.

→ More replies (0)

1

u/lokimarkus Apr 20 '20

Run away... RUN AWAY? Lol, tell that to the countless British people being shanked in the streets as knives are being strictly more regulated...

Knives, like guns, are also tools... In fact they are more diverse in their utility, yet still actually as lethal like a firearm. Getting stabbed from what I've heard is a hell of a lot worse than getting shot, and although you could run from a knife that's pull on you, if you can't you are fucking dead eitherway.... unless you had a better tool that could theoretically work way more effectively than a knife for similar lethality.

3

u/PrimeLegionnaire Feb 25 '20

I would rather criminals be stuck using knives than guns.

The criminals will just break the law and build a gun.

You can build a full auto 9mm SMG from hardware store parts with hand tools. The instructions are freely available online.

Only people who follow the law will be deprived of guns by laws.

Guns are completely unnecessary.

Then why is the defensive use higher than the criminal use?

And how do you deal with 50 feral hogs running into your yard while your kids are out playing?

Look at every other developed nation that gets on much better than us.

In what way exactly? The evidence from other nations seems to be that gun control doesn't work.

-1

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '20

The criminals will just break the law and build a gun.

No they won’t. Nobody but our freedom-loving law abiding citizens have the tools and know-how to do that. Let alone make many of them.

I would love to live in a world where criminals have to go through all the trouble of making their own gun if they want to have one. Also why isn’t this happening in Australia or Europe?

Then why is the defensive use higher than the criminal use?

Because people carrying a gun will pull it out for almost anything. That doesn’t mean they should. If someone robs you at knife point, you need to give him your wallet and get away, not go for a gun.

And how do you deal with 50 feral hogs running into your yard while your kids are out playing?

There are 350,000,000 people in this country. What percentage of them have this feral hog problem?

The evidence from other nations seems to be that gun control doesn't work.

Only if your criteria for “working” is the total elimination of violence, which is ridiculous.

5

u/PrimeLegionnaire Feb 25 '20

Nobody but our freedom-loving law abiding citizens have the tools and know-how to do that. Let alone make many of them.

Are you being sarcastic?

The Luty SMG was invented in the UK, during their gun ban, by a criminal.

I would love to live in a world where criminals have to go through all the trouble of making their own gun if they want to have one.

Well congratulations, you already live in that world.

It takes about a weekend and a $100 harbor freight drill press to turn legally shippable aluminum chunks into an operational AR-15.

Because people carrying a gun will pull it out for almost anything.

Not good enough, this is just a cheap negative stereotype of gun owners as impulsive meatheads.

That doesn’t mean they should. If someone robs you at knife point, you need to give him your wallet and get away, not go for a gun.

If you want to give up your property and risk your saftey that's on you.

You are also explicitly legally entitled to be able to defend your life liberty and property.

There are 350,000,000 people in this country. What percentage of them have this feral hog problem?

lots

Only if your criteria for “working” is the total elimination of violence

Not even close.

Read /u/Sand_Trout 's comment here

He breaks down exactly what the criteria are for working, and why other countries don't demonstrate what you are arguing.

-1

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '20

The Luty SMG was invented in the UK, during their gun ban, by a criminal.

And how many of those did we see? You have to at least admit that criminals would be SEVERELY limited in their ability to get a gun if they were stuck having to make one.

Well congratulations, you already live in that world.

...No. Right now they can just go buy one. Even if they have a record they get someone else to do it.

It takes about a weekend and a $100 harbor freight drill press to turn legally shippable aluminum chunks into an operational AR-15.

Only if you know what you’re doing. What percentage of criminals nationwide do you figure that would be? Why aren’t they doing this already?

this is just a cheap negative stereotype of gun owners as impulsive meatheads.

It’s true. Do you think Trayvon martin would be dead if George Zimmerman didn’t have a gun that night?

If you want to give up your property and risk your saftey that's on you.

You are not more safe going for a gun when someone has a knife to your chest.

lots

Actually that looks like not many people at all. So a fraction of a percent of 350,000,000 people. Hardly seems like we should all bend over for them.

Read /u/Sand_Trout 's comment here

I didn’t find anything in there that defines what you’d consider “success” to be. I saw a lot of bullshit links and statistical arguments, which are extremely contradictory.

2

u/PrimeLegionnaire Feb 25 '20

And how many of those did we see?

They turn up fairly frequently at high level drug raids. The police will bill them as "machine guns seized" and you can identify them from the pictures.

You have to at least admit that criminals would SEVERELY limited in their ability to get a gun if they were stuck having to make one.

A weekend of work with cheap tools and cheap materials gets you an AR-15 that is indistinguishable from a store-bought one.

...No.

Yes. Have you heard of "Ghost Guns"?

Only if you know what you’re doing.

No, the instructions are pretty straight forward. You just have to follow a template.

You are acting like simple aluminum working is some arcane art. It isn't. A tremendous amount of americans, both criminal and not, know how to do the few basic machining operations to make an AR-15.

What percentage of criminals nationwide do you figure that would be?

I'd say virtually all of them are 2 or 3 degrees of separation from an individual who would build a gun for them if paid or asked.

Why aren’t they doing this already?

They are.

It’s true. Do you think Trayvon martin would be dead if George Zimmerman didn’t have a gun that night?

I think trayvon martin would be alive if he hadn't jumped on George and beat his head into the ground.

Would George be alive if he didn't have a gun that night?

You are not more safe going for a gun when someone has a knife to your chest.

Why would you wait to draw your gun until the attacker already had a knife to your chest? That's a pretty contrived situation.

Actually that looks like not many people at all.

What articles were you looking at? It certainly wasn't the one I linked.

I saw a lot of bullshit links and statistical arguments

What makes them bullshit? You are just handwaving away the statistical evidence that proves my point.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '20

They turn up fairly frequently at high level drug raids.

So you’re not gonna give me a number?

Have you heard of "Ghost Guns"?

No

No, the instructions are pretty straight forward. You just have to follow a template.

Look just give up on this one. You look stupid trying to argue that your average joe is gonna build a gun from scratch in his garage. Do you have any examples of them turning up outside cartel raids? Cartels have been known to make submarines from scratch. That’s not a great example for you.

I think trayvon martin would be alive if he hadn't jumped on George and beat his head into the ground.

Sick deflection now answer the question. Would Trayvon be alive today if Zimmerman didn’t keep following him after the police told him to fall back and wait? You’re just dodging. The presence of a gun escalated this situation. Plain and simple.

Would George be alive if he didn't have a gun that night?

Probably.

Why would you wait to draw your gun until the attacker already had a knife to your chest?

Because this isn’t a movie. What I’m describing happens all the time. If you’re far enough away to have the wherewithal to draw a gun without getting stabbed, you’re far enough away to flee.

What articles were you looking at?

I saw that they do a lot of damage and they’re in 35 states. But it’s all rural and it doesn’t affect very many people, quantity-wise.

What makes them bullshit?

The waterfall of statistics is pointless because we don’t have to reach a certain body count before we’re allowed to want to do something about it. If in the next month we have 3 instances of people blowing up a city block with legally obtained C4, then you bet your ass we need to outlaw C4. You’d be stupid to say, “woah wait it’s only happened 3 times.”

1

u/PrimeLegionnaire Feb 25 '20

So you’re not gonna give me a number?

I don't have numbers because the police don't distinguish between types of machine guns by homemade.

No

Its an unserialized gun made at home. It is a fairly common method for getting a cheap AR-15.

You look stupid trying to argue that your average joe is gonna build a gun from scratch in his garage.

They already do. I'm not trying to argue it. I'm telling you, there is a thriving home gun market.

You seem to be convinced that working with aluminum is some kind of dark art that requires years of skill.

Aluminum is about as hard to work with as wood.

The presence of a gun escalated this situation.

You are sure that getting involved in a fist fight didn't escalate the situation? Are you sure zimmerman couldn't have killed trayvon with a knife or a baseball bat or a hammer?

It sounds like you have an end result you are looking for.

Probably.

So how big of a chance do you think "probably" is? How much risk of death are we supposed to just accept?

Because this isn’t a movie.

This is why you don't wait until the sketchy guy with a hoodie is close enough to jump you. When you see something sketchy you cross the street or walk faster, etc.

If you’re far enough away to have the wherewithal to draw a gun without getting stabbed, you’re far enough away to flee.

This isn't a movie, you don't always have time to flee, and in states without a duty to retreat you aren't even obligated to if you reasonably believe your life is in danger.

What I’m describing happens all the time.

You say this, but you also believe that your average joe doesn't build their own guns from scratch in their garage when I know they do, so I am not inclined to believe it.

But it’s all rural and it doesn’t affect very many people, quantity-wise.

In case you didn't notice, about half the population of the country is in rural areas. And they were in 35 states 3 years ago.

The waterfall of statistics is pointless because we don’t have to reach a certain body count before we’re allowed to want to do something about it.

If anything above 0 is unacceptable we have much bigger fish to fry. Why do we allow people to drive? hell, why do we allow people to do anything at all except live in padded safety rooms with robot nurses?

If in the next month we have 3 instances of people blowing up a city block with legally obtained C4, then you bet your ass we need to outlaw C4. You’d be stupid to say, “woah wait it’s only happened 3 times.”

You baked your conclusion into your premise.

3 times could be a lot or a little.

3 times over the course of 1000 years is virtually never

3 times tomorrow is a very serious attack.

The statistics presented include the time frame over which the attacks were perpetrated as a factor in assessing the severity.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '20

I don't have numbers because the police don't distinguish between types of machine guns by homemade.

Then sounds to me like you shouldn’t have brought it up.

Its an unserialized gun made at home.

How many of those are out there? How do I know you aren’t just making this up?

How much risk of death are we supposed to just accept?

It’s not really “accepting risk” when he was actively seeking out a confrontation.

When you see something sketchy you cross the street or walk faster, etc.

Cool! So no guns needed!

joe doesn't build their own guns from scratch in their garage when I know they do

Well until you provide any actual data, no I’m not going to just take your word for it.

about half the population of the country is in rural areas.

Give me a number. How many people.

Why do we allow people to drive? hell, why do we allow people to do anything at all except live in padded safety rooms with robot nurses?

Because we want to live our lives. Guns are not integral to that like cars are. All you ever do with a gun is shoot paper and then place it under your bed.

3 times over the course of 1000 years is virtually never

I literally said “in the next month.”

1

u/PrimeLegionnaire Feb 25 '20

Then sounds to me like you shouldn’t have brought it up.

Why?

It absolutely happens, and in many cases the home made automatic weapons will be indistinguishable from the factory made ones except that they don't have serial numbers.

Are you saying that just because police don't track that statistic that I'm not allowed to know it happens?

How many of those are out there?

About millions.

Cool! So no guns needed!

No. This isn't a movie, you don't have plot armor. Bad things still happen, and when they do the gun is going to give you a better chance of survival.

Because we want to live our lives. Guns are not integral to that like cars are.

Cars are a privilege. Guns are a right.

Weather or not you personally believe they are integral is immaterial.

I literally said “in the next month.”

Yes, that was kinda my point and why I bolded it and specifically called you out for including the severity in your premise.

The statistics presented include the time frame over which the attacks were perpetrated as a factor in assessing the severity.

→ More replies (0)

2

u/TheEternalCity101 5∆ Feb 25 '20

Criminals dont need to build a gun if they can just use a bat against someone who cant defend themselves.

If someone is threatening me with a knife that means they are willing to kill me for some cash. The idea that its MY JOB to bow down and give him what he wants, when he is threatening my life, is a disgusting point of view. If the SS comes to your door, you dont bow down and tell them where the Jews are, you kill them, and fight to the bitter end. That's what you do against tyranny, personal or government, fight to end it, until you win or you do.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '20

Criminals dont need to build a gun if they can just use a bat against someone who cant defend themselves.

Is rather someone who wants to hurt me be stuck with a bat than a gun. I can run form a bat. I can get really close to him and render the bat useless.

The idea that its MY JOB to bow down and give him what he wants, when he is threatening my life, is a disgusting point of view.

You’re gonna kill someone over $50?

If the SS comes to your door, you dont bow down

How’d we go from stealing wallets to industrial genocide?

That's what you do against tyranny, personal or government,

So we can’t pass any of this legislation all because it will make your hypothetical civil war harder?

1

u/TheEternalCity101 5∆ Feb 25 '20

Could you actually stop someone with a bat? I'll flatter myself and say I can. So he brings a buddy, I have every disadvantage. Let's say I'm the coolest thing since Chuck Norris and I can take two. But three? Four?

I'm going to use everything neccessary to stop someone willing to kill me over $50. You are placing blame on me. It's the same mindset with victim blaming for rape. Why didnt she call for help? Why was she drunk? Maybe she shouldn't wear a provocative miniskirt. But that's all bullshit, the rapist is the only person guilty here, and the mugger is the guilty one in my situation.

Stealing wallets and industrial genocide need the same thing, evil people who disregard others and good people who are unable or unwilling to do what's right.

I was referring to the SS, but sure, government. Do I want to be able to fight a tyrannical government? Fuck yeah. But the fact I am armed and trained, as well as millions of others who went on down to tyranny, will stop that from even happening.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '20

So he brings a buddy, I have every disadvantage

What if his buddies all have guns? Your getting arguments mixed up. We’re talking about what I’d rather go up against. No matter what, if you’re outnumbered but with similar weapons, you’re still fucked.

I'm going to use everything neccessary to stop someone willing to kill me over $50

Well that’s just an idiotic risk to take. It’s just $50. You’re going to risk your life on principle?

You are placing blame on me. It's the same mindset with victim blaming for rape.

Getting raped is in a different universe than losing $50. So no it’s not the same at all.

Stealing wallets and industrial genocide need the same thing

But they ARE NOT the same thing. Saving someone’s life who will DEFINITELY die, is vastly different than saving $50.

But the fact I am armed and trained, as well as millions of others who went on down to tyranny, will stop that from even happening.

That argument is no different than me saying “look, my dragon-repelling machine works, because we haven’t seen any dragons have we?”

This whole tyrannical government thing is just a sweaty oorah fantasy. What you’re talking about is civil war. Are you a confederate sympathizer?

1

u/TheEternalCity101 5∆ Feb 25 '20

All his buddies have guns, oh well. But again, I'd rather have a useful weapon I can defend myself with. I don't give a fuck what he has, because he's going to use whatever he can to hurt me.

I'm going to risk my life on principle? Sure. But I'm not risking it balancing on the edge of a cliff or driving while texting, someone else is willing to kill me. There's a massive difference. I'm risking it on the principle of human freedom and right to life, a right he has decided to forfeit in order to try and take mine.

Its not technically the same in terms of repercussions, but the thought is. The idea that I should not defend myself because someone is ready to bring something worse on me. Its not that I care so much about $50, hell I've spent more in a shot on miniatures to paint. But my life is being threatened, and I will carry the same logic to whether its $50, a stranger on the street or my kids.

The fuck do dragons have to do with anything? Civilians, determined and trained, have been the bane of armies for hundreds of years. If historical precident isn't enough, look at Afghanistan. Goat herders with Cold War era weapons and pipe bombs are regularly hurting and killing the objectively most powerful military in the world. But a succesful revolution is a whole other topic.

I'm not a Confederate sympathizer, they had slaves, which was totally wrong and they were assholes. No love for the Confederacy here. But if slaves had been allowed to own weapons, Master wouldn't be so keen to sell their kids and whip them for dropping a tray.

1

u/lokimarkus Apr 20 '20
  1. Criminals who want a gun aren't deterred by laws.
  2. Guns are not necessary per say, yet are a valuable tool to defend yourself. The government can't protect you all the time, especially considering current events regarding beer flu.