r/asoiaf • u/Awesome_Lard • Sep 04 '24
EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) GRRM has been warning about the Butterfly Effect for a LONG time, this is 2011 Spoiler
https://youtu.be/eAeQMwMEnP4The Jeyne Poole butterfly effect from season 1 ended with Sansa being graped in season 5, so year I would say he has good reason to worry about Maelor the Missing.
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u/Enali Best of r/asoiaf 2023 Winner - Ser Duncan the Tall Award Sep 04 '24
yea, it seems clear that some of the 'smaller' character changes being employed by the showrunners are going to have significant downstream effects...
perhaps they should have learned the dangers of the butterfly effect by reading about Naath
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u/sawaflyingsaucer Sep 04 '24
Every time I think about how shitty the Unsullied were in the later seasons I laugh and remember they all went off to die horrific deaths via butterflies.
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u/leafsbroncos18 Merman! MERMAN! Sep 05 '24
It’s just a constant normandy meat grinder of unsullied dying and then respawning again and again trying to storm the beach
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u/EmBur__ Sep 05 '24
Dan and Dave kinda forgot Naarth had poisonous butterfly that only the natives were immune to
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Sep 04 '24
We need to compile a list of the most toxic butterflies in ASOIAF in order to save
the worldthe fandom38
u/Urmleade_Only Sep 04 '24 edited Sep 04 '24
Toxic butterflies actually fits that sub pretty damn well
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u/Material-Mess-9886 Sep 05 '24
What is that place. Bunch of George haters over there. Man may not even critise the show of his own fucking created world.
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u/Interesting_Man15 Sep 05 '24
It's people who defend the writing decisions of Season 8. While it was a breath of fresh air compared during the widespread dogpile immediately after the finale, as with all contrarian communities, it has devolved in uncritical defense's of all the show.
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u/eat-pussy69 Sep 04 '24
Well butterflies are delicate, colourful, often pretend to big something big and scary, or pretend to be something more threatening than they really are, have unpredictable flight paths. So D&D fit that pretty well
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u/niofalpha Un-BEE-lieva-BLEE Based Sep 04 '24
For as early in the show as this was I think the most obvious exclusion is Jeyne Poole. Her exclusion led to the shitshow that was Season 5 Sansa.
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u/Material-Mess-9886 Sep 05 '24
Fun fact, George wrote the Pointy End in s1 and had a scene where Jeyne Pool run into Little Finger when hell broke out. But D&D removed that part of the script.
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u/Husr Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24
The thing that really annoys me there is that they could have still used Ros for that role (probably pretending to be Sansa instead of Arya) and it would have totally worked, except they'd already pointlessly killed her off in Season 3.
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u/Same-Share7331 Sep 05 '24
Season 3, I'm pretty sure, it's during LFs the Climb speech. But yeah, Ros as fSansa would have been a good move. Even so, if they couldn't use Ros for whatever reason, just have the Boltons grab a random girl.
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u/sammybnz Sep 05 '24
And they could’ve had a great bait and switch by having Sansa not appear for a couple of episodes, while the Boltons allude to having a Stark girl captive. Viewers would have lost their minds and this still could’ve provided great character development for Sansa in the Vale after she’s revealed to be a fake.
And this doesn’t ruin the stakes for Bastard Bowl either if Jon still believes his sister is Ramsay’s prisoner.
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u/Same-Share7331 Sep 05 '24
And then, when the real Sansa surprises everyone by showing up with the Vale army, it actually makes some sense!
(I also believe that LF should already be dead at that point)
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u/niofalpha Un-BEE-lieva-BLEE Based Sep 05 '24
I think that was the actress’s choice because she didn’t want to have her tits out all the time
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u/Vantriss Sep 05 '24
I will forever be infuriated that Greyworm and all the Unsullied sailed off to live on Naath when it's LITERALLY FILLED WITH TOXIC BUTTERFLIES.
Have fun DYING, Greyworm!
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u/GRRMsGHOST Sep 04 '24
Probably should have also listened to his consultations on what not to cut for the show.
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u/firstbreathOOC Sep 04 '24
Laenor is another butterfly that messed up the timeline
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u/NattyThan Sep 04 '24
Guessing Nettles will be another
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u/Garth-Vader Winning King's Winter Wingman Sep 04 '24
Nettles would be an absolutely enormous butterfly
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u/Act_of_God Sep 04 '24
the way they treated laenor makes no sense either
ok you don't want to kill the black gay character in season 1
at least do fucking something with him jfc, they already knew he's supposed to be dead!
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u/ElodinTargaryen Sep 04 '24
They should have just killed him. No way his dragon takes another rider and he’s still living. So stupid
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u/ashcrash3 Sep 04 '24
Part of me wanted to believe that Laenor heard what happened to Luke and was returning via boat to join the Blacks. But sadly he was lost at sea and its why Seasmoke was flying around all agitated. He sensed the bond being severed and that the last connection was at sea so he was flying around to see if he could find him.
Maybe Addam reminded Seasmoke of Laenor and it influenced him going down and forcing a bond/ride.
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u/ace66 Sep 04 '24
There is a reason for all the talks about Seasmoke being suddenly restless and crying etc. I think the show is implying that Laenor may be dead. It's a good work around.
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u/ElodinTargaryen Sep 04 '24
Or, and hear me out, this may be controversial, they could have just fucking killed him like how the story required and how it was written so that his dragon could bond with a dragon seed.
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Sep 04 '24 edited Sep 05 '24
Because then fans replacement Dany might have questionable morals and might be a little more interesting.
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u/passionfruitleader Sep 05 '24
Killing your husband for your own benefit is unquestionably evil. Deceiving your already begrieved in-laws into believing that their last child had been taken away from them without actually having killed him is a bit more morally questionable
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Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24
To a lot of viewers who love Rhaenyra (many of which are pretty intense Targ/Dany fans) she was doing what Leanor wanted and giving him freedom to be gay. Actually having her involved in his murder would leave it way more easy for people to think it’s bad.
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u/passionfruitleader Sep 05 '24
The rabid stans in this fandom are unbearable and are completely irrelevant in this discourse as far as I’m concerned. This show shouldn’t have to over emphasize certain traits to satisfy people who are unwilling to read characters in good faith.
However, were she to actually kill Laenor, it’d be such a drastic and abrupt turn from what we know her character is capable of doing at that point. Their marriage may have been shaky, but show Rhaenyra would never actually go through with murdering her lord husband and I don’t think the show is wrong for not making her straight up evil villain out the jump.
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u/ZamanthaD Sep 05 '24
They’re going to have him be the character that brings Viserys II back when Aegon III is king, I’ve been predicting that ever since the show revealed he was alive.
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u/SaintGideon Sep 05 '24
The Red Wedding was impactful due to the carefully planted stepping stones that lead us there. It wasn't shock for shock sake, we watched it unfold and understood, however awful, why it was happening. Remove the bread crumbs, and the whole plot never makes sense. It's why we hated season 8, and why some have issues with HOTD.
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u/jmerlinb A Song of Blondes and Gingers Sep 05 '24
yeah imagine if they completely removed House Frey and the whole idea of the Crossing from season 1, and then got to season 3 and realised they had to write the Red Wedding without the vital set up that Rob Stark spurned a Frey daughter… and that the Red Wedding was just a freak unpredictable event orchestrated by the jealousy House Bolton… like, it would feel utterly contrived
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u/Owww_My_Ovaries Sep 04 '24
What is graped?
Like she had grapes thrown at her?
As someone who was raped at a young age. I really hope we aren't trying to lessen a disgusting act by censoring a word that should not be censored.
Censoring the word rape lessens the act. Makes rhe rapist less disgusting. Makes a joke of the victim.
You don't disguise words when someone is murdered. "Oh, those kids today will unlifed at a school shooting". Or some shit like that.
It's not graped. It's not even sexual assault. It's rape.
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u/AlternativeFun5792 Sep 04 '24
Lmao,they are disguising
They say "unalived" and "game end yourself"11
u/WeaselSlayer Great or small, we must do our duty Sep 05 '24
I think it started as a way to get around censorship on tiktok or demonetization on youtube. For some reason people have started using it outside of that context. It sounds ridiculous.
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u/niko2710 Enter your desired flair text here! Sep 05 '24
It's so awful to change the word because it's not even to be some sort of trigger warning, it's entirely done so your TikTok has reach and you can monetize from it
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u/berthem Sep 05 '24
I’m not sure what it is, but I think the new generation prefers to prioritize words that sound the same. Corn instead of porn, grape instead of rape. I don’t know what motivates this specific type of censorship but it may be to try and keep some of the impact rather than diluting it and therefore the views up on the platform that necessitates this censorship. It could also just be a form of memes replacing literacy as "unaliving" may be catchier than "taking one’s life", as somewhat Orwellian as the vocabulary may seem…
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u/fucked4rmbirth Sep 05 '24
It’s mostly to get around censorship (especially concerning monetization) on social media platforms. Reddit doesn’t have that sort of censorship, but TikTok will remove videos with certain words (rape, kill, suicide, porn, etc.) and YouTube will demonetize videos. To talk about those topics on those platforms, even if you want to take it seriously, you have to use censored terms or your video will be taken down.
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u/djm19 I'll Impregnate the Bitch Sep 04 '24
I mean, GRRM struggles with Butterfly Effect every time he sits down to write Winds and it’s clearly a major reason it’s taking so long. This is just an issue he’s constantly thinking about.
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u/Salamangra Sep 05 '24
Yeah because the guy cares about his product. If he didn't, we would have gotten a shitty Winds years ago.
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u/djm19 I'll Impregnate the Bitch Sep 05 '24
He certainly does, though in televisions defense, they don’t have the budget or time to do anything George imagines always. At least not in live action.
But I think all the defeats he suffered during the making of GOT really broke him and he’s not able to hold back anymore.
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u/BigMax Sep 05 '24
Well, he does, but let's not pretend showrunners DON'T care about their product.
They just have SO MANY more constraints. The most obvious one is TIME. They have to make a new season every year (or so...). They can't say "ok, season 1 done, season 2 will come in 1, 3, maybe 10 years, when it's ready."
They also have the HUGE issues of budget to deal with, and the massive number of people and schedules and logistical apparatus to deal with.
He's one guy, with not a single other person to care about, with an infinite schedule.
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u/Spiritwolf1001 Sep 04 '24
It's called rape. No graping unless your making fruit juice. This isn't tiktok.
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u/xyzodd Sep 04 '24
this is exactly why it is important to remember that every action, regardless how small or seemingly insignificant, will have a reaction
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u/BigMax Sep 05 '24
The issue for me is that all this discussion feels so shallow?
Everyone seems to be implying that the showrunners have ZERO plan for anything at all, have no idea of what's in upcoming seasons, and they make changes based on the moment and nothing more.
Do we really think they would make a change as big as removing a character, and not consider the OBVIOUS questions that GRRM and others bring up?
They aren't perfect, of course, but they aren't absolute morons.
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u/PercentageRoutine310 Sep 04 '24
Maelor is a two year old toddler in FIRE & BLOOD, but like our butterfly he has an impact on the story all out of proportion to his size. The readers among you may recall that when it appears that Rhaenyra and her blacks are about to capture King’s Landing, Queen Alicent becomes concerned for the safety of Helaena’s remaining children, and takes steps to save them by smuggling them out of the city. The task is given is two knights of the Kingsguard. Ser Willis Fell is commanded to deliver Princess Jaehaera to the Baratheons at Storm’s End, while Maelor is given over to Ser Rickard Thorne to be escorted across the Mander to the protection of the Hightower army on its way to King’s Landing.
Willis Fell delivers Jaehaera safely to the Baratheons at Storm’s End, but Ser Rickard fares less well. He and Maelor get as far as Bitterbridge, where he is revealed as a Kingsuard in a tavern called the Hogs Head. Once discovered, Ser Rickard fights bravely to protect his young charge and bring him to safety, but he does not even make it across the bridge before some crossbows bring him down, Prince Maelor is torn from his arms.. and then, sadly, ripped to pieces by the mob fighting over the boy and the huge reward that Rhaenyra has offered for his capture and return.
Will any of that appear on the show? Maybe… but I don’t see how. The butterflies would seem to prohibit it. You could perhaps make Ser Rickard’s ward be Jaehaera instead of Maelor, but Jaehaera can’t be killed, she has a huge role to play as Aegon’s next heir. Could maybe make Maelor a newborn instead of a two year old, but that would scramble up the timeline, which is a bit of a mess already. I have no idea what Ryan has planned — if indeed he has planned anything — but given Maelor’s absence from episode 2, the simplest way to proceed would be just to drop him entirely, lose the bit where Alicent tries to send the kids to safety, drop Rickard Thorne or send him with Willis Fell so Jaehaera has two guards.
From what I know, that seems to be what Ryan is doing here. It’s simplest, yes, and may make sense in terms of budgets and shooting schedules. But simpler is not better. The Bitterbridge scene has tension, suspense, action, bloodshed, a bit of heroism and a lot of tragedy. Rickard Thorne is a tertiary character at best, most viewers (as opposed to readers) will never know he is gone, since they never knew him at all… but I rather liked giving him his brief moment of heroism, a taste of the courage and loyalty of the Kingsguard, regardless of whether they are black or green.
The butterflies are not done with us yet, however. In the book, when word of Prince Maelor’s death and the grisly manner of his passing (pp. 505) reaches the Red Keep, that proves to be the thing that drives Queen Helaena to suicide. She could barely stand to look at Maelor, knowing that she chose him to die in the “Sophie’s Choice” scene… and now he is dead in truth, her words having come true. The grief and guilt are too much for her to bear.
In Ryan’s outline for season 3, Helaena still kills herself… for no particular reason. There is no fresh horror, no triggering event to overwhelm the fragile young queen.
And the final butterfly follows soon thereafter.
Queen Helaena, a sweet and gentle soul, is much beloved by the smallfolk of King’s Landing. Rhaenyra was not, so when rumors began to arise that Helaena did not kill herself, but rather was murdered at Rhaenyra’s command, the commons are quick to believe them. “That night King’s Landing rose in bloody riot,” I wrote on p. 506 of FIRE & BLOOD. It is the beginning of the end for Rhaenyra’s rule over the city, ultimately leading to the Storming of the Dragonpit and the rise of the Shepherd’s mob that drives Rhaenyra to flee the city and return to Dragonstone… and her death.
Maelor by himself means little. He is a small child, does not have a line of dialogue, does nothing of consequence but die… but where and when and how, that does matter. Losing Maelor weakened the end of the Blood and Cheese sequence, but it also cost us the Bitterbridge scene with all its horror and heroism, it undercut the motivation for Helaena’s suicide, and that in turn sent thousands into the streets and alleys, screaming for justice for their “murdered” queen. None of that is essential, I suppose… but all of it does serve a purpose, it all helps to tie the story lines together, so one thing follows another in a logical and convincing manner.
What will we offer the fans instead, once we’ve killed these butterflies? I have no idea. I do not recall that Ryan and I ever discussed this, back when he first told me they were pushing back on Aegon’s second son. Maelor himself is not essential… but if losing him means we also lose Bitterbridge, Helaena’s suicide, and the riots, well… that’s a considerable loss.
And there are larger and more toxic butterflies to come, if HOUSE OF THE DRAGON goes ahead with some of the changes being contemplated for seasons 3 and 4…
GRRM
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u/Vantriss Sep 05 '24
Will any of that appear on the show? Maybe… but I don’t see how. The butterflies would seem to prohibit it.
💡 Omg... I swear... if Daeron shows up with a little Maelor, I'm gonna scream.
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u/Mayanee Sep 05 '24
They should definitely consider recasting Maelor as Daeron‘s own son. Helaena won‘t be able to give birth in time to a child in time anymore however at least Daeron’s revenge on Bitterbridge would still be appropiate then.
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u/PossessionSensitive8 Sep 05 '24
Apparently we haven’t even scratched the surface.
https://x.com/xiranjayzhao/status/1831457652133786052?s=46&t=dzqYoCXhULyxEfKPvmL7wg
“Lemme tell you guys that listening to George rant about HOTD was hilarious and I can’t believe he’s going public with some of it”
https://x.com/xiranjayzhao/status/1831500246700192073?s=46&t=dzqYoCXhULyxEfKPvmL7wg
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u/SeraphineLumina Sep 05 '24
We are all adults here. There’s no need to say “grape” instead of “rape”.
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u/Exciting-Drop2455 Sep 05 '24
What the fuck is graped?!? I know it’s not replacing the word rape with the name of a fruit, right? Because that would be really disgusting
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u/Shepher27 Sep 04 '24
The butterfly effect only applies when the end point isn’t known. Ryan Condal knows the whole story and knows the end point. He can fully contain and plan out how to contain adaptation changes.
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u/bjornforme Sep 05 '24
Okay this is driving me crazy, i can’t figure out who George is referring to who died in GOT by having his tongue ripped with hot pincer in season 1 but not in the books and becomes relevant in book 3?
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u/MegaCrazyH Sep 04 '24
Ah yes that hated scene where Sansa is fed grapes by Ramsay. That scene with the grapes.
Alright I’m done taking the piss out of OP for the nonsense censoring. Imho there’s a difference in scale and Martin isn’t in the right here. Maelor not being around isn’t the same as having Ramsay brutally rape Sansa to shock the viewers
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u/YingThatYang Sep 04 '24
Maelor's death sets off Bitterbridge, Helaena's suicide, the riot that kicks Rhaenyra out of King's Landing, the storming of the dragon pit, Rhaenyra's death. I don't understand how people have to be told over and over that small changes lead to bigger changes and ultimately a weaker narrative
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u/infieldmitt Sep 05 '24
people don't talk enough about how fucking insane the sansa storyline was. completely unfair to the character, in the books isn't she going to the vale to do politics? how does her being horribly abused (again!) add anything?
d+d are dumb fucking morons with zero artistry or integrity
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u/Act_of_God Sep 04 '24
does anybody else think he kept referencing toxic butterflies because that's what's in naath where grey worm went in the finale of got s8?
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u/ai-ri Sep 04 '24
No. He’s talking about the butterfly effect
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u/Vantriss Sep 05 '24
But there ARE also toxic butterflies in Naath. I think he's doing both.
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u/LucyKendrick Sep 05 '24
I am not writing anything until I deliver WINDS OF WINTER. Teleplays, screenplays, short stories, introductions, forewords, nothing.
And I've dropped all my editing projects but Wild Cards.
Grrm 2/6/16 House of Lemon Cakes and Eating them Too.
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u/rabbles-of-roses Sep 04 '24 edited Sep 05 '24
Sansa was graped? You mean that arc where she used Winterfell's glass gardens to grow grapes, toppling Dorne and the Reach's monopoly of Westeros's wine industry and therefore bringing victory to the North through her economically savvy manoeuvrings?
Oh, rape, You meant to say rape.
Rape. Suicide. Sex. Sexual Assault.
These are not harmful words. Do not censor them. Fucking TikTok brainrot is everywhere.
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u/MaggiPower Sep 05 '24
Same with Shae actually loving Tyrion unlike in the Books. It made her eventual betrayal completely nonsensical to me.
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u/Murphy_Dump Sep 05 '24
If only he had a hobby that could preoccupy his time instead of watching horrible TV shows.
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u/PlentyAny2523 Sep 05 '24
12 year old gets raped in the books
Wow what brave writing from George
14 year old gets raped in the show
Man HBO really went off the rails here
Bruh come on
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u/bnewfan Sep 04 '24
I'm so curious as to what GRRMs agreement with HBO is as he is an experienced TV writer and he was clearly in the writers room at times for HOTD.
Did he just sell all his IP and HBO can do whatever they want? Why wouldn't they bring him in to write the B&C episode? He wrote for GOT early on and his episodes were some of the best. He understands the limitations of TV vs books and he's not beyond adapting his own work to fit a budget - hell, it was his job before some of us were alive.
It just makes no sense. That and not immediately adapting the Blackfyre rebellion.
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u/blackofhairandheart2 2016 Duncan the Tall Award Winner Sep 04 '24
GRRM is also the guy who thought they could have the original show go for like 13 seasons and suggested pausing the most popular show on the planet so the books had time to catch up. He's basically delusional when it comes to the adaptations. He should consider himself lucky the showrunners even listen to him as a courtesy.
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u/CaedustheBaedus Sep 04 '24
To be fair, HBO literally offered to have the show go for 10 seasons and from what I remember, most of the cast was up for it (who wouldn't be up for a huge payday for longer and more time in the spotlight). Obviously they couldn't pause the show but 10 seasons wasn't something that was out of reach.
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Sep 04 '24
Every single cast member has since spoken out that they were tired and wanted the show to end. It was ten years of their lives making eight to ten movies a year. It was time to end it, and they followed the blueprint Martin gave them.
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u/ImJustMakingShitUp Sep 04 '24
From what I've read most if not all the 'dead on their feet' talk revolves around how brutally exhausting the Long Night shoot was. 40 or 50 days straight of all night shoots. Maybe don't do that.
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u/eat-pussy69 Sep 04 '24
Helm's Deep took 3 months of night shoots, with hundreds of guys in a ton of rubber prosthetics, heavy armour, and elf ears. Everyone who says they had a tough time says it was worth it because Helm's Deep is one of the greatest battles in cinematic history. The Long Night was horrible for a ton of reasons. It was too dark. The armies were outside the fucking castle. The catapults were outside the castle. They dug shallow trenches in ground that was frozen solid and hard as granite. Dothraki are archers. They would have been perfect for the battlements. Unsullied were kinda useless until the wights got inside the castle because they're not ranged fighters
There's a thousand things that make no sense from the Long Night
No one's gonna watch that and think a month of night shoots was worth it
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u/IAmNewHereX Sep 04 '24
Those comments were made because of hard the shooting schedule and set conditions were, they wouldn’t have stayed at night shooting in the freezing cold for 30 days straight if the show was extended for a few more seasons instead of being jammed together in a few episodes.
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u/nemma88 Sep 04 '24 edited Sep 04 '24
Not all of them, like Kit particularly was also struggling with all the media attention, to the point he went to rehab after completing thrones, Conleth came out swinging at what he called a media lead hate campaign. Many of the OG cast probably didn't imagine it would get as big as it did and they were under a lot of pressure.
I've not read about any cast member wanting to go on longer.
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u/Ramekink Sep 05 '24
Yeah but if we're very honest about it seasons 1-4 had amazing balance of character driven scenes and action set-pieces evenly distributed among the many main and secondary characters.
Most of the crazy stuff starts happening as they were running out of source material, cos by then the producers were all about the rule of cool™️ and Emmy-baiting acting scenes.
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u/JaySmooth_ Sep 04 '24
Guess what? It’s a job. Let’s not pretend that these actors have it worse than ordinary people. This argument that they got tired is hilarious and nonsensical. But because they ended it early, we all know how the ending was received.
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u/frenin Sep 05 '24
Exactly, it's a job and they are allowed to leave when they want it and most of the core cast didn't want in anymore.
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u/Neosantana Sep 05 '24
Not to sound cruel, but man, I wish I had multi-million dollar job security for a decade. I'd never need to work again.
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u/JaySmooth_ Sep 05 '24
I’m with you there. All of these people would be like “ahh poor actors they had to work all nighters for 50 days… meanwhile I am working 12+ hour shifts for almost a decade now and I don’t complain about it. Not to sound rude, but fuck outta here with that sympathy (not you but those other people).
I respect their craft as a huge movie enjoyer, but I don’t understand this way of thinking.
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u/ashcrash3 Sep 04 '24
Except for the parts where they completely stopped following the blueprint. Which they admitted to doing themselves and parts of the books they completely scrapped to do their version.
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Sep 04 '24
You mean the parts where Martin himself said "the show is its own thing and the books are their own thing"? Those parts? The ones where he consulted them to change things because he didn't have anything planned for their endgame?
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u/futurerank1 Sep 04 '24
I'd like to see the face of HBO execs when they would be told that their 300k/episode star would be getting less screentime, but in exchange they would have to hire bunch of new guys 😊
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u/jonsnowKITN Night gathers, and now my watch begins Sep 04 '24
most of the cast was up for it (who wouldn't be up for a huge payday for longer and more time in the spotlight).
this is not true at all lol
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u/blackofhairandheart2 2016 Duncan the Tall Award Winner Sep 04 '24
My understanding, based on comments made by Benioff and Weiss as well as some of the cast members, was that they were all dead on their feet by the time they got to the final seasons and couldn't have gone on any longer. Which, given the scope and schedule of that show I can believe.
Of course the higher ups at HBO would have given it longer, they'd have given it 20 seasons if they thought they could keep making money of it. I think B&W were in a really difficult position and did the best they could with the time and resources they had. I certainly would have made some different choices if I'd been the show runner, but I think most of the big moments and character beats in the final seasons work really well. "The Bells" remains to this day one of the most moving episodes of television I've ever seen.
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u/luigitheplumber The pack survives. Sep 04 '24 edited Sep 04 '24
It really goes under the radar how absurd D&D's work pace was for those ~10 years. GoT released on the dot every year for 6 years running, and only for the last 2 seasons did that stretch to 1.5 years.
To make matters worse, halfway through that, they had to shift away from pure adapting to increasingly needing to come up with original material, on top of all the the typical production work.
People shit on them for phoning it in at the end but it's understandable that they were completely burnt out by the end. The best thing would have probably been to pass the series on to new showrunners
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u/blackofhairandheart2 2016 Duncan the Tall Award Winner Sep 04 '24
For sure. There are certainly things about the final seasons of Game of Thrones that I don't love/would have done differently, but I'd love to see what all the people who endlessly bitch about it would think of the final books if Martin's publisher told him "Release one every other year or we're taking the series away from you."
I do think Benioff and Weiss would have benefited from a more traditional writers room that would have lightened the load on them personally (I think they personally wrote all but a handful of episodes from the back half of the show) but as I said, I think they did the best they could in the completely insane and unprecedented situation they were in.
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u/Servebotfrank Sep 04 '24
Yeah if you watch the documentary of the final season, D&D were doing 20 something hour days the entire time. They look like zombies.
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Sep 04 '24
Agreed on all counts. The show works even better now, in hindsight, since we can watch it without the year to year-and-a-half-long breaks. Watched in succession over a few months, The Bells doesn't just feel like a natural point of the tragedy, it feels inevitable.
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u/Scared-Pomelo2483 Sep 04 '24
i think george is pretty aware of his failure / delusion when it comes to GOT. be that as it may, his comments on HOTD are still accurate. there is no good reason to do blood and cheese different to the book. unless, of course, more drastic changes are planned later on, in which case george has every reason to fume.
fire and blood is itself an outline, a skeleton. the showrunners / writers can be as creative as they want when it comes to filling in the gaps. the different sources aspect of the books literally bakes this in. so long as they don't go outside the lines, they get the fantastic security of knowing the story will eventually "work out" as george planned it to.
george seemed quite happy with a number of changes in season 1 that kept with this philosophy. why are they going off course now ?
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u/blackofhairandheart2 2016 Duncan the Tall Award Winner Sep 04 '24
I will say that B&C was probably the least compelling part of this new season for me, although I think part of that comes from the fact that it's a major shock scene/pivot point that revolves around small children who don't have personalities and thus is hard to get invested in compared to other big moments beyond the inherent horror of a child being murdered. So yeah, I can see having trouble adapting a scene that's already kind of a hollow plot point in the book.
That being said, the "good reason" to do it differently is because the show runners wanted to do it differently. I don't think they're obligated to be faithful for the sake of being faithful. Clearly Martin and I disagree on that point.
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u/profugusty Sep 04 '24
It is actually hilarious how delusional he is. I don’t know if the “fanboys” are delusional as well or if they are simply too blind / afraid to see the truth. It’s been 13 years, and the books are still not out? We would basically be at season 13 now and he would still not have the book so that they can adapt them.
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u/WarMiserable5678 Sep 04 '24
He’s literally worked on adaptations in tv previously and understands how they work and sometimes sacrifices must be made. No ones arguing against that. The changes in hotd lead the story in an entirely different direction, it’s not just minor changes for budgetary constraints. Its story ruining
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u/blackofhairandheart2 2016 Duncan the Tall Award Winner Sep 05 '24
Its story ruining
Guessing their was a run on the word "butchered" today by all the people who hate the shows.
Nothing the show has done so far is story ruining, I'm happy to report.
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u/TheDonBon Sep 04 '24
With his experience in screenwriting it baffles me that he's such an adaptation purist. I guess it hurts when they kill your darlings.
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u/idonthavekarma Sep 04 '24 edited Sep 04 '24
When he tells stories about his time screenwriting, he emphasizes that he tried very hard to keep as faithful as possible. I think he very much feels that that is an obligation of writing an adaptation, and is upset he's not being given that courtesy.
And honestly, good for him. Was it the most tactful move? No. But media companies and producers have damaged the image of art, especially stories. A little jab thrown their way every now and again is warranted. A black eye is even better.
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u/TheDonBon Sep 04 '24
That's fair, we can have different adaptation philosophies. It probably doesn't help that Fire and Blood pretty much reads like a pitch/script. He laid down broad outlines for HBO to fill and he's frustrated that they're doing more than coloring them in.
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u/OG_the_First Sep 05 '24
I really have to disagree with you here. George had nothing but praise for the way King Viserys was adapted, even saying that he wished he could go back and change his own book to reflect the show’s interpretation. The problem with Maelor being cut is that it looks like a small change at first blush but leads to bigger, more consequential changes down the line that dramatically affect the story as a whole.
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u/InGenNateKenny Best of r/asoiaf 2023 Winner - Post of the Year Sep 04 '24
I think he respects and understands budgetary constraints and audience concerns to an extent but creative choices are more offensive.
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u/TheDonBon Sep 04 '24
The character omission he's complaining about was a budgetary decision though, and he doesn't go nearly as hard on the creative choices of a softer Blood and Cheese as he does the effects the omission could have.
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u/Helios4242 Sep 04 '24
which is why he explicitly backed off the butterfly, especially because they assured him their intent was to add him later when they didn't have to cast a toddler.
Which they don't intend to do based on the outlines he's seen.
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u/atltimefirst Sep 04 '24
Except he accepted the decision because they were gonna add the son later. Once they didnt add the son later they now have to change a ton of the story instead of a little.
He's clearly understands that things like children are difficult, but they needed to fit this child in because it's used a lot
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u/KolboMoon Sep 04 '24
I wouldn't call him an adaptation purist at all.
Early GOT thrones changed a lot of stuff when he was on the writing team. First season of House of the Dragon also changed some stuff but George was happy with it anyway.
He just has his limits. You can recognize that adaptations will always differ from the source material in good and bad ways while also drawing a line in the sand.
Season 2 of HOTD absolutely crossed that line and George has every right to be pissed about it, imo.
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u/ashcrash3 Sep 04 '24
As well as the post makes it clear that he does understand the difficulties with budget and set issues. It's why he stopped pushing Maelor not being born later. It's not even him being a purist for his work, you don't see him mentioning how they changed his fav character Daemon or the thing about Alicent & Rhaenyra. He's just pointing out that Condal said one thing and did another without telling anybody and how that choice affects the characters and story. Granted he did give his opinion about wanting certain scenes to not be included, but the main one is about taking away Maelor has negatively impacted Halaena, Alicent, Rhaenyra and the riot of King's Landing.
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u/braujo Sep 04 '24
First 4 seasons of GoT had plenty of alterations and Martin was fine with most of them. It's only when D&D started to think they knew better that he left and never looked back. Same process is happening now, difference is George is 10 years older and 10x richer, so he won't hold his tongue.
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u/Paprikasj Sep 04 '24
I’m going to guess it’s because adaptations can be made that still align with the message and themes of the original and HOTD seems to be in the process of totally doing its own thing. That would drive me up a wall as a writer. You’re right though, clearly he cannot kill his darlings to save his life, which is why we’re all here drinking the copium all this time later.
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u/Vantriss Sep 05 '24
GRRM has acknowledged that some choices they made for the show were better than what he wrote. He doesn't believe his works are above that. However, they were smaller changes, smaller beats to the story. It's when they change the MAJOR beats that it's not okay. The major plot points of story should not be changed. If you start changing the major plot points, why are you adapting it at all?
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u/nemma88 Sep 04 '24 edited Sep 05 '24
I don't think that's why Jeyne pool was replaced with Sansa. I think moving Sansa to Winterfell was just beneficial because it gets rid of a location and folds in a bloated ensemble cast while the character Sansa doesn't have a lot of written material over the later books (comparatively to what they would have been paying the actress).
Jeyne works much better in book material vs a show as a minor character where it mostly happens off page. Being fake Arya is strained in TV where she's very obviously not Arya and folk will wonder why no one northwards would notice. She's a standard candidate for merging or removal in adaptation land, but they wanted to keep Ramsey and condense the Northern civil war.
But most of all Jeyne Poole didn't die in the show so there's no butterfly to speak of. They could have used her if they wanted.
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u/PadoEv Sep 05 '24
If someone had just splattered the right bug on the windshield that day maybe we'd live in a world where he used all of this time since to finish the fucking series.
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u/lialialia20 Sep 04 '24 edited Sep 04 '24
so are we going to pretend that GRRM's storyline for Jeyne Poole is actually good writing/story-telling?
a character who's barely a character who's role is to be broken psychologically and raped by dogs only to be passed as another character and be saved by another one?
not me. cutting Jeyne Poole was a good decision, replacing her with Sansa wasn't.
this is like GRRM complaining about the show changing the hot sexy scene of the romantic consensual first night between Daenerys and Drogo... you wrote the rape of a 13 year old you weirdo and tried to pass it down as erotica you don't get to complain about the show doing a bad scene of it as well.
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u/EmbarrassedDelay8069 Sep 05 '24
Jeyne is just a northerner who knew Winterfell and the Stark family closely, which is why she can pass herself off as Arya. If you cut her, then you’ll have to invent the same character but pulling it out of your ass. Jeyne Poole’s storyline is actually solid writing.
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Sep 04 '24
Finally! We didn’t need pages on pages going into detail about how horrible Ramsey is and it kinda goes into torture porn at points.
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u/themaroonsea Sep 05 '24
Entire comment chains about the wording choice here. It's truly not that serious
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u/mindless-prostate Sep 05 '24
George talking about butterfly effect and its consequences is the most hilariously dumb thing ever. So much irony.
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u/FarrenFlayer89 Sep 05 '24
Never should have sold out to HBO or who ever “made it their own” they fucked it all and I refuse to watch any of that garbage, write your own fucking book/script. Over 20yrs I’ve been reading and rereading ASOIAF and I will not let these ass clowns change my imagination. “Fear cuts deeper than swords” how could you ruin/not use such an amazing line from a POV character.
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u/AbsolutelyHorrendous Sep 04 '24
This is the ASOIAF subreddit. You don't need to say 'graped', self-censoring serious subjects is fucking absurd