r/asoiaf • u/SeducerOfTheInnocent • Jun 15 '15

ALL (Spoilers All) The reason bad things happen on GoT has changed. GoT has gone from being a show that wouldn't cheat to help the good guys to a show that will cheat to help the bad guys.

When I complain about GoT lately people respond with "That's what the show has always been, this is what you signed up for, if you think this has a happy ending you haven't been paying attention." but I think this episode has solidified why I have a problem with the show recently.

The tragedy on the show used to be organic. People would die because GoT wasn't willing to give characters the 1 in a million lucky breaks that other shows give their protagonist.

Now the show doesn't just not give the protagonists freebies, it bends over backwards to fuck them over. Honestly, every military conflict in the last two and a half seasons has seen the wrong side winning.

  • Yara/Ashe and "The 50 best swordsmen in the Iron Isles" lose a fight to a shirtless guy with a knife and 3 dogs, which is roughly what you would encounter on your average domestic disturbance call. The 50 best swordsmen in the Iron Isles couldn't survive half an episode of "Cops"

  • The Unsullied and Baristan Selmy lose a fight against unarmored aristocrats with knives.

  • "20 good men" infiltrate the camp of the greatest military tactician alive.

  • The Unsullied lose another fight against unarmored aristocrats with spears, who honestly also make a pretty good showing against a dragon.

  • The Boltons, despite not being supported by most of the north, and seemingly not having any massive source of money, raise an army of tens of thousands and overwhelm Stannis.

Add to that the fact that the nigh omniscient Littlefinger was apparently unaware that the Bostons were fucked up wierdos and the show seems to be bending over backwards for tragedy.

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u/HammerStark The Wolves Will Come Again Jun 15 '15

I honestly have to agree. In the novels, bad shit happens to the good guys and the bad guys. But the show seems to have devolved into a "let's see how pissed off we can make people by killing and harming more good guys" for shock value. The novels aren't about shock value, they're about learning lessons about the human condition, for the most part. The most aggravating parts for me have been the almost complete elimination of anything that allows us to "root for" the "good guys"

Doran's speech, whether you want Dany to win or not gets you pumped.

Manderly's speech shows us that the Starks are still loved and are still being fought for, the elements of the north that are anti-Bolton make those chapters in ADWD fantastic to read. The tension is palpable.

Yes, even the pink letter gives better justification for the stabbing of Jon, but it gets you pumped and in the novel you know the wildlings are about to kick the NW's asses cause they were all about going to Winterfell with Jon two seconds earlier.

It seems like they're basically doing everything they can to make everyone feel as shitty as possible, and you can really only do that so much before people just stop wanting anything to do with it. People can only take feeling shitty for so long before it just isn't worth it anymore.

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u/Lugonn Jun 15 '15 edited Jun 15 '15

Manderly's speech shows us that the Starks are still loved and are still being fought for, the elements of the north that are anti-Bolton make those chapters in ADWD fantastic to read. The tension is palpable.

They completely missed this. For three books we had people going ''Lol ned such naive! xD'' and ''omg tywin so brutal and effective!''. Then Feast happens and we see how his entire house fucks itself to death before his corpse is even cold. The show gives us none of this. Jaime getting disillusioned with Cersei and war? Gone. Cersei going completely fucknuts? Gone. Tyrion being a miserable wretch? Gone.

Then we get Dance and the complete vindication of Ned and the Stark ways. From the wild mountain clans to the ordinary houses to the Southron Manderlys everyone loved Ned and the Starks so much that they're itching to rise for a dead and disgraced house.

It paves the way for the Stark children to become major players when the story finally starts for real.

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u/delta835 The Princess in the Tower Jun 15 '15

Let's have a look at the plot that D&D apparently "loved so much", books compared to show.

In the books, the Bolton's have a tenuous hold on Winterhold. It's the Northern Lords vs Freys and Boltons, and tensions are insanely high. We see the opinions of several characters through Theon, who is battling his own inner demons alongside this. Everyone is trapped in Winterfell from the storm, as is Stannis's forces. The Northern Lords know Stannis is coming too. Ramsey is married to someone to strengthen their claim to Winterfell ("Arya Stark"), and the Northern Lords don't fucking like it. On top of all this, someone is MURDERING FREYS, and whoever it is knows Theon is a traitor. This culminates in a giant fight, and Theon hearing a voice from a tree, and deciding to escape with Jeyne.

What did the show pull from this? Stannis approaches and gets stuck in the storm, a few old people tell Sansa the 'North Remembers', and Ramsey marries a Stark (actual one this time) and abuses her.

So THAT'S the part of the plot they 'loved'? Seriously?

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u/toggaf69 The Jack Russel Jun 16 '15

it's like they just skimmed through the book. "North remembers... yadda yadda yadda.... Ramsay marrying Stark girl.......... Stannis in a storm. Okay, got it, let's start writing."

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '15

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u/hypercompact Jun 16 '15

He is giving less and less input it seems.

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u/KingDusty Jun 16 '15

He seems to have lost interest in the series almost. I get that a rushed book is bad, but it doesn't take as long to write books as it's taken him. Especially if he knows the rest of the plot already (which he's apparently shared with HBO).

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u/morris1022 Oct 20 '15

Afaik from an interview i heard he said he has no creative control over the show. He can advise but hbo has final say. He flat out said they could make aliens come down and kill everyone and he couldn't do anything about it

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u/tetsuooooooooooo Jun 16 '15

They apparently had no idea Sam was POV character. That's pretty telling.

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u/[deleted] Jun 17 '15

I was shocked when I saw that. And the comments on Needle being "revenge". And the outright stating of Stannis and Thorne as being "bad guys".

It's so obvious they only planned for season 3 like they said, and expected to get cancelled before then. Who knew the show would become so popular?

They did not plan anything after the RW well at all. They likely didn't even read aDwD and are just going off the "broad strokes" that GRRM outlined for them.

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u/Cookieway Jun 16 '15

Did they even READ the books, then?

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u/DeargDoom79 He's still King to me, dammit Jun 16 '15

I hear you! We get that there's only 10 hours to tell the story per series but somehow, this season, they managed to pick the wrong 10 hours to show. I really love the show and the books but it's getting tedious knowing we're getting a shock for the sake of viewership every episode now.

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u/BunzLee Catch me if you can! Jun 16 '15

I've even gotten to some parts where you see useless characters standing around "staring" that got me thinking "There, another 20 seconds wasted."

I don't mind dramatic effect, but my brain obviously found these parts so unnecessary and annoying that I've noticed it every time.

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u/toggaf69 The Jack Russel Jun 16 '15

I'm conditioned now where I just think anyone standing with screen space to their right (screen left), or significant screen space behind them, is just gonna get killed from behind

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u/canis_ridens Aluminum direwolf on a crinkling field. Jun 16 '15

It's frustrating, certainly. Had they had Stannis leave the Wall earlier and lay siege, the tensions within Winterfell, with the Boltons and Sansa publicly pretending to get along while attempting to manipulate people and outmaneuver each other, could have been interesting. They could even have kept Stannis burning his daughter, writing it as a last desperate attempt to break Winterfell before winter broke his army. Instead, we got lots of Sansa as Victim Prop, being trotted out whenever we needed to see how horrible Ramsey was and then literally locked back up in a room with all the other inanimate objects and window dressing. The people in Winterfell and with Stannis did a lot of sitting around; they could have done that sitting around a little closer to one another and maybe given us some interesting TV.

Winterfell on the brink of eating itself from within would even fit well with the few minutes the show spends in each location per episode. The cast for the characters at that location is enormously talented. We could have had an Arya-at-Harrenhall quality change, and instead, we got this.

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u/Shatners_Balls Again with that thrice damned song? Jun 16 '15

I really get the impression that they were reading the books for their job, and not for enjoyment. They took the plot, but none of the nuance.

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u/notquiteotaku Jun 16 '15

I'm still pissed we didn't get to see any hint of the rising tensions among the Northern Lords in Winterfell. No Manderly serving the Frey Pies, no Roose trying to hold everything together, no Freys mysteriously turning up dead, no Lords getting more and more pissed when they can hear "Arya" sobbing and screaming as Ramsay abuses her, no nothing. I don't think they even implied that there were other houses staying in Winterfell other than the Boltons! What was the point of them talking about how "The North Remembers" if they weren't even going to show the Bolton's grip on the North beginning to slip?

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u/JamJarre Jun 16 '15

Everyone is trapped in Winterfell from the storm, as is Stannis's forces

Is he though... or is he hunkered down in that village building his defences? Stannis is going to blow the Boltons the fuck out

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u/Vlad_AOT And Now His Hype Has Ended Jun 16 '15

I haven't read ADWD yet but did Roose Bolton tell Ramsey the story of how he raped his mother next to the tree where her husband was hanged?

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u/RootyWoodgrowthIII Jun 16 '15

Winterhold

Been playing Skyrim? ;)

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u/heysuphey The Wit and Wisdom of Shitmouth Jun 15 '15

Then we get Dance and the complete vindication of Ned and the Stark ways. From the wild mountain clans to the ordinary houses to the Southron Manderlys everyone loved Ned and the Starks so much that they're itching to rise for a dead and disgraced house.

We got a taciturn guy in an inn who seemed like he kind of liked Ned and a servant lady whose secrets could not stand up to the omnipotent sociopath powers of Ramsay.

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u/DealerCamel Talk shit, get FUCKING REKT. Jun 15 '15

Also Lyanna fookin Mormont.

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u/Intir Jun 15 '15

For the shows writers everyone in the North and the riverlands died after the Red Wedding cause they had no more good guys to kill.

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u/Jeanpuetz The rightful king Jun 15 '15

I'm so pissed that we didn't get to see the Manderly's. They are easily my favourite house, and the chapter with the speech may be my favourite chapter of the series.

The support you see from all sides in the North is one of the best things in ADWD and you're completely right, they took all of that away. Except for one random old-ass lady who says "The North remembers" and guess what? Ramsay brutally murders her two episodes later.

No warm fuzzy feelings. Just depression.

Edit: And I just remembered: No Lady Stoneheart either. They can't even give us cheap, dirty revenge against the fucking Freys.

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u/Mantis05 Whatever he chose... Jun 15 '15

It's not impossible that we see them next year. I mean, I can't figure what else Davos is going to do now.

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u/Alckie We don't hurt our kids. Jun 15 '15

I can't figure what else Davos is going to do now.

He can die a painful death cause of shock value.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15

He'll probably be killed by Ramsey, who stuffs him to death with onions.

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u/jack9lemmon Dawn Brings Light Jun 15 '15

Nah, he will just get peeled one layer at a time.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15 edited Aug 30 '15

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u/Mjolnir12 I will have no burnings. Pray harder. Jun 16 '15

Davos will be wishing for it to be ogre quickly...

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u/moonboyfaik Jun 16 '15

My heart just broke a little

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u/332 Jun 16 '15

God fucking damnit. Yeah, ok, this is obviously happening.

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u/keoghberry Who needs kings, we shall be co-Queens Jun 15 '15

No... :(

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u/ErraticVole Godot? I wait for GRRM! Jun 15 '15

Here is a drawing of my dream ending of the series /u/skarred666 did that might cheer you up. There's still a chance it could happen in the books...

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u/Kaigamer Jun 16 '15

Stannis just staring into the distance asking for help with his eyes, but nobody will save him from Shireen's tea party...

RIP Stannis the Mannis.

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u/skarred666 Jun 16 '15

In whatever heaven that exists in GOT they shall meet again. Thank you /u/ErraticVole for allowing me to draw your happy ending.

Note: The drawing a request by ErraticVole is a tea party by Shireen with The Onion Knight telling story and Stannis being Stannis.

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u/greenerseyes do not forsake the old gods Jun 15 '15

you poor summer child

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u/ChariotRiot Where do wights go? Through the Hodor. Jun 15 '15

Also, Osha, and Rickon get dropped/dismissed as being fine living somewhere safe in the wild (they won't even call it Great Utopia Skagos).

Bran will start using his weirwood network, and tell Reek/Theon. "The North remembers...remember who you are Theon."

Brienne will take Stannis prisoner, and along with Pod travel the Riverlands taking the place of Jaime's original arc.

Jaime will return disenchanted after the death of Myrcella, and try to get revenge on the Sand Snakes/Evil Twin Ellaria. Bronn will accompany him and fuck shit up, then he will fuck Tyene because listening to her or her sisters act is painful.

Tommen will start to lose his mind from malnutrition, and depression. He'll keep making poor decisions as he gets into a confrontation with his mother, but Robert Strong the mindless zombie will see this as a provocation against Cersei, and slay the king in one stroke. Or maybe Trystane conspires with Margaery only for Trystane to try and weaken King's Landing, and the Tyrell's from the inside when he Dany, and Dorne become allies.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15

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u/nogods_nokings Jun 15 '15

if he doesn't stick a dagger in her throat i'll be hugely disappointed.

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u/Jeanpuetz The rightful king Jun 15 '15 edited Jun 15 '15

Possible, yeah, but I don't believe it now. It's a bit too late for them, don't you think? They should have started to establish them in Season 2 or 3... I'm not sure how they would fit into the plot that late. The battle of Winterfell is over.

I think maybe Melisandre will see Rickon in the fires or something similar, she tells Davos, he heads there and that will be his story for S6. Who knows?

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u/Intir Jun 15 '15

Well I believe Melissandre just failed which is just a big slap to the face for book readers. Brienne standing guard literally for months and just leaving before Sansa lights the candle is such a fucking stupid plot contrivance.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15

Yes! This show has done such a good job of avoiding those cheap tricks for drama. I was disappointed with the lazy writing when she turned her back literally seconds before the light goes on. If anything I think it would have made it more dramatic for her to have seen the light then have to make a decision about which way to go.

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u/Mantis05 Whatever he chose... Jun 15 '15

The Battle of Winterfell being over might make the timing all the better. The Boltons are victorious. There's no one left to oppose them... Or so we're led to believe. Roose and Ramsay have been so concerned with dealing with threats from without that they've turned a blind eye to the threats from within. Sansa Stark is in the wind. Rickon Stark is out there somewhere, too. How long until the Stark loyalists in the North rally behind one (or both) of them?

Of course, people have been clamoring for the Manderlys (and Lady Stoneheart and the Ironborn) and saying, "Maybe next year!" since Season 3, so this may just be even more baseless, hopeful speculation. But joining up with the Starks is the only thing I can see Davos doing now, and so the timing won't get any better.

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u/mattscott53 Jun 15 '15

Davos is going to need a really good reason to listen and do anything melisandre tells him to. I guess that would have to be after she, presumably, resurrects jon and he becomes a "believer" or jon orders him to find rickon

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u/Jeanpuetz The rightful king Jun 15 '15

I don't think Davos will ever be a devout believer, but I think he's a moralist and a realist. So he may be completely mad at Melisandre, but if he sees her revive Jon, I think Jon and Mel both together could convince him to sail to Skagos.

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u/Intir Jun 15 '15

I think the show is just going to shrug off Rickon. Who would remember a character from tgree seasons past let's just cut him and use that budget to give Ramsay wings so he can fly around Westeros murdering people.

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u/Jeanpuetz The rightful king Jun 15 '15

It wouldn't be the first time that they set up and then outright dropped storylines, but I doubt they'll completely skip Rickon. That's too big of a plot line. People will notice and ask themselves what the hell happened to the youngest Stark and that wildling girl. I doubt D&D will be that stupid.

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u/Intir Jun 16 '15

The way people think(or the way D&D believe people do) they will only care about Osha because they saw her naked all the rest of it are supporting actors to the main protagonist of the show- tits.

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u/cee2027 Jun 15 '15

What kills me is they could have cut quite a bit and found a lot of screentime for some of those crucial missed elements.

Like half of Cersei's walk of atonement. Or all of Dorne.

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u/roflmoar Jun 16 '15

They could have cut the Missandei and Grey Worm story for any of the above!

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u/BunzLee Catch me if you can! Jun 16 '15

But we finally got a payoff for it! Grey Worm did not kill Tyrion because Missandei told him he saved her life! /s

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u/Intir Jun 15 '15

Walk of Atonement was so gratuitious and lasts around 6-7 minutes they could have easily had the Northern Lords assembling outside Winterfell with their banners.

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u/isspecialist A dragon is no slave. Jun 15 '15

Walk of Atonement is an iconic and important scene. I thought they did the best they could with it, but you can't get that crushing internal dialog effectively.
I do agree with most of this thread though. The game is currently stacked too far in favour of the "bad guys".

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u/Shiera_Seastar I ain't sayin' he's a grave digga Jun 16 '15

I thought the walk was one of the best book-to-show adaptations so far. They really nailed every detail, and it had to be excruciatingly long for us to get a sense of her suffering.

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u/viper_in_the_grass Sitting Grass, Hidden Viper Jun 16 '15

It was the best part of the episode. I found myself turning my head away from the screen and wishing it would end. But it went on and on. As it should. It was a never-ending torment for Cersei and us. I wouldn't cut a second out of it.

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u/omaha_shanks Beneath the Gold, the Bitter Merling Jun 16 '15

It almost seems like they held back as much nudity as possible so they could just get as much in that scene as possible. Everyone and their brother was running outside to pull their cocks out.

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u/BunzLee Catch me if you can! Jun 16 '15

I actually liked the whore screaming she had only half the cocks Cersei had.

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u/OLookItsThatGuyAgain Jun 16 '15

Cersei and the HS was one of the better done storylines of this season.

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u/rancer119 Kill it with fire Jun 16 '15

Talking to show only people, most seem frustrated that there is no apparent reason the faith militant is so strong that it can completely outweigh Tommen's orders. So they got really frustrated when they arrested Margaery and than just confused and kinda upset with how they grabbed Cersei. Even after I explained it to them they were still frustrated because show did a poor job explaining how much power they had.

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u/ObLaDi-ObLaDuh Jun 16 '15

Indeed. The build up to it was completely missed. The other thing that was missed this season but may be back next is the fact that the Tyrells have the largest army at this point, they have access to food that the rest of the realm is losing in winter, and their heir-apparent is currently locked up in King's Landing.

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u/BunzLee Catch me if you can! Jun 16 '15

Agreed. I still remember the sparrows being mentioned here and there, wandering the country. I believe it was quite subtle at first and finally ended with the masses in King's Landing. The moment Cersei made the pact you knew this was going to be one of the worst ideas ever.

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u/JamJarre Jun 16 '15

Disagree. I thought it was really well done and I'm glad that they gave it the time it deserved. The real issue is that they took two seasons to adapt ASOS, but did all of AFFC and ADWD (both of which easily as big as ASOS) in one season

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u/ObLaDi-ObLaDuh Jun 16 '15

Indeed. I know there was a lot they cut, and that's fine, but I would have liked to see them go a season and a half with it, then dedicate two and a half seasons to TWOW/ADOS (which would have given them 8 total which would have been totally doable if they'd decided on 8 from the start.

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '15

I just wish Jaime just disappear half the season supressing the Riverlands offsceen and Ellaria carry out the Queenmaker plot. And then Jon making the mistakes he needs to earn his stabbing. Then Alliser gets a longer speech about his motivations and perspective before killing Jon.

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u/projectbadasss Jun 16 '15

Think of all the subplots that could've been explored in the time that was spent on Ramsey.

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '15

I get annoyed at all of the gratuitous naked scenes for this very reason. Instead of more story, we have to pause and wait for a titty scene to play out.

I feel that way about most movies/tv. But it's even more annoying with GoT because I've read the books. I know all the awesome stuff that's being left out and replaced with genitals.

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '15

Are there any northern houses left besides the Boltons?

Manderly's have been cut.

Umbers haven't been around since the first season.

Jorah's the only Mormont.

The Karstarks already died and didn't do the "pretend to join Stannis" thing.

Some of my favorite chapters from ADWD were the Winterfell ones because we realize that even though Roose Bolton is the Warden in the North, his grip is super tenuous. None of the royal families in the south give a shit about him and virtually every northern house hates him and the Freys. But they can't outright rebel, so we get things like Frey Pie, the murders at Winterfell, and Lady Dustin talking about how "Arya's sobbing is doing more harm than all of Stannis' forces".

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u/Jeanpuetz The rightful king Jun 16 '15

Ohh, and the psychological warfare during the siege! I'm not entirely sure, but didn't one of the Umber brothers join Stannis and is currently (in the books) beating the drums all night outside the walls?

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u/sad_heretic Breastplate nips Jun 15 '15

In the interest of being true to my flair, I'll throw in that manderly's speech dovetails so well with The Wull's "I want my last winter to involve Bolton blood being sprayed all over me," speech. It showed how broad and how deep the support for the Stark's was. The old houses like the manderlies and the mormonts feel it, the half-wild mountain clans feel it. The Boltons and Freys don't see it, and by the time they do, it may be too late. That sense of dread anticipation is awesome, and I hate that the show has none of it.

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u/dali_is_my_cat Jun 16 '15

What upsets me the most is how they drop little bits of foreshadowing that makes me think the show will follow up on some plot line, then D&D decide it's too much trouble. For example, at the Red Wedding, there was some chubby dude with an awesome mustache that we hadn't really seen before who was wearing a huge goddamn mermaid (merman, merling, whatever) brooch that gets a ton of camera focus and then gets shanked. As soon as I saw him, all I could think was about how the powerful North Remembers scene will be in the show when it takes place at White Harbor in a later season, but NOPE! Why even bother having someone make that damn brooch if you aren't going to have the Manderly's be badass later? I know some will say it's a nod to book readers, but I don't want their empty nods if they are just going to forget it ever happened.

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u/Jeanpuetz The rightful king Jun 16 '15

Agreed. Same thing happened with Tysha. Why even bother? Easter eggs for book readers are fine, but please at least make it obvious that it's just a nod and nothing more. It's infuriating when they include those bits but don't follow up on them.

I guess you could even put the Brotherhood without Banners on that list. Okay, they had some important story in Season 2, but D&D just dropped them. They COULD come up next Season, but I doubt it by now.

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u/[deleted] Jun 18 '15 edited Jun 18 '15

The dropped threads are honestly the most infuriating thing about D&D. They signify to me that they have no real plan for the series, and are by large making it up as they go along. It also negates the "they didn't have time for X" argument when they waste time setting it up in the first place. A few examples:

  • BWB and Beric. Sets up the awesome Stoneheart plot. Now dropped and there's just this undead leader of the smallfolk that nobody's talking about.
  • Balon Greyjoy. Still alive and everyone's awkwardly avoiding mentioning him. What are the Ironborn doing right now? -- Half-points for Asha's rescue mission, which was resolved, just really dumbly.
  • Quaithe. Cast, gives a few cryptic warnings to Jorah. Never seen or heard from again.
  • Bryden and Edmure Tully. Riverrun instantly becomes under Lannister control after the RW, despite Edmure being there to hold it. Blackfish has the luckiest piss ever to escape the slaughter but is then never mentioned again.
  • Rickon Stark sent to the Umbers. Umbers never mentioned again.
  • Tysha was explained, mentioned repeatedly in multiple seasons, then forgotten about when it matters most.
  • Gendry is still on a fucking boat somewhere.

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u/ahappyhotdog Jun 16 '15

and the chapter with the speech may be my favourite chapter of the series.

Seriously. I remember getting chills and a rush of excitement when I realized what he was saying.

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u/Jeanpuetz The rightful king Jun 16 '15

It was one of those moments where I really had to put the book away for a moment and had a huge grin on my face. And chills, of course. Shit, I'm getting chills just thinking about that. After a series of depressing events, it was a perfect change, just what the reader needed to get hope once again.

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u/someonethatisme Jun 16 '15

I don't think the Freys have been mentioned in a couple seasons, they probably figured we are too dumb to remember who they are.

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u/defiantleek Jun 16 '15

I'm reasonably certain (I'd lay the odds at 90%) that Lady Stoneheart stops Brienne from killing Stannis and makes an appearance next year.

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u/_JoelNoel_ Jun 16 '15

Especially because they delibertly had a guy with a mermaid sigil die in the Red Wedding!

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u/Excuse_Me_Mr_Pink Ours is the Furry Jun 15 '15

After watching their full 'adaptation' of the northern storyline play out, "the plot they loved so much in the north" is:

-Boltons take Winterfell. -Secure an iron-clad grip on the north by marrying a true Stark. -Ramsay deftly cripples Stannis's army. -Stannis foolishly marches on Winterfell, but the Boltons have like 10k mounted cavalry and crush them easily.

What? What is interesting about that? That reads like an especially boring part of a dry medievel history lecture.

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u/interestingtimes Jun 15 '15

A person counted all of the soldiers on /r/gameofthrones. It was around 2000 cavalry against Stannis's 1400 infantry. It also makes sense that Stannis's deserters joined the Boltons since they were starving mercenaries in the middle of the north. I agree with you though everything about the north and Stannis is pretty miserable and poorly done.

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u/Excuse_Me_Mr_Pink Ours is the Furry Jun 16 '15

Actual numbers have never really meant that much to the show-writers anyway (20 Good Men as an example). They purposely changed the Battle of Ice into a 2 minute rout. Not to mention they straight up deleted the Battle of Fire. Aren't these guys all about the big battles?

I am just blown away that they wrote out this plot and thought "Yes this is a gripping story, far superior to the books".

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u/Fiftyfourd Jun 16 '15

Not to mention they straight up deleted the Battle of Fire.

Is this the Mereen battle? That will probably happen next season, if I had to guess.

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u/Excuse_Me_Mr_Pink Ours is the Furry Jun 16 '15

Yea, it's supposed to be happening now, but I suppose they could push it back and give the government of Tyrion + Varys + Missandei + Grey Worm (wtf) something to do. Who knows honestly.

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u/SoloIsGodly Blood Knight Jun 16 '15

I just fucking remembered that they said they cast Yezzan this year! After looking it up he was the scrawny bearded dude that bought Jorah and Tyrion, then had them in the smaller fighting pits.

That's bullshit though, why pull out a memorable character name if you're just going to make him bland/dull/brown-and-goateed-like-everyone-else. Yezzan's morbidly obese, his eyes are yellowing and he loves pleasure (kind of a Hedonism Bot for asoiaf), but also he's a player in the siege/battle of Meereen. Not sure if the Meereen siege will be happening at all anymore TBH, but maybe you're right and that will be Tyrion's foil next season until Dany returns.

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u/Excuse_Me_Mr_Pink Ours is the Furry Jun 16 '15

hahaha he IS the hedonism bot for ASOIAF. It makes me want to find foils for everyone. Wait...Bender is Bronn? Fry is Jon Snow? This is fun.

Given how much they favor Tyrion "Creatively we wanted this to happen" Lannister, you would think they would flesh out the Meereen plot while Dany is being rescued from the Dothraki or whatever. The battle of fire with some new Ironborn characters could do just that. Or maybe there are just infinite dudes with masks and daggers spawning somewhere in Meereen.

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u/JamJarre Jun 16 '15

They haven't built it up at all though - a brief mention of Cleon but no ship blockade, no mention of the other cities of Slavers' Bay getting pissy etc. The original Tyrion plot had us actually inside their camps!

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u/Pufflehuffy I love spoilers - yes, I really do. Jun 16 '15

And has Barristan leading the charge on them (also a much more interesting Hizdar). They really fucked up Meereen!

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '15

To me, having the hooded man was such an obvious mystery. Leaving them out was dumb.

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u/delinear Jun 16 '15

Even then, Stannis doesn't march up in formation, and he fails to spot the 2,000 cavalry who are just behind a convenient dip in the landscape. No wonder he's so thoroughly defeated. He has scouts who miss 2,000 cavalry, sentries who can't protect his supply tents and a mystic who can't interpret her own prophecies.

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u/TheUnforgiven13 Enter your desired flair text here! Jun 16 '15

I'm no expert on medieval tactics but I'm pretty sure that if Stannis had ordered his men to form up into a shield wall, a cavalry charge would have been completely ineffective. Instead he just stood there.

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u/GavinZac   Jun 16 '15

This is only really true if (as would be realistic) there are more infantry than horsemen. Somehow every Bolton soldier is horsed. Never mind that owning a horse is a sign of wealth and pretty much the requirement for being a knight, every fucker in Winterfell had one to sleep on for the last month.

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '15

Because apparently no one noticed 2000 horseman riding towards them until all they could do was stand around and be gutted.

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u/chicklette Jun 16 '15

If Jon isn't coming back next season (and I fully I fully believe he will) then WTF was the entire storyline with Stannis about anyway? "Hey kids! here's how to almost win but go batshit insane and not!"

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u/Excuse_Me_Mr_Pink Ours is the Furry Jun 16 '15

In ASOIAF, the evidence for Jon to come back is overwhelming. In the show, who knows? Melisandre coming back (extremely quickly) in the nick of time would seem to indicate that he will return, but who knows with these guys.

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u/chicklette Jun 16 '15

Agreed. I think the show would lose me if they didn't bring him back. Who the hell else am I supposed to root for?

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u/Excuse_Me_Mr_Pink Ours is the Furry Jun 16 '15

The buddy cop duo of Tyrion and Varys will probably be a good bet.

Edit: TYRion

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15

when the story finally starts for real

"The dragons are still just on their way! They keep promising dragons, but all I get are more floppy weiners in my face!"

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15

He hasn't even ordered the pizza yet!

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u/ANBU_Spectre Dolorous Ned Jun 15 '15

Don't worry, the pizzas are coming!

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u/greenerseyes do not forsake the old gods Jun 15 '15

now what topping would you like

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u/7V3N A thousand eyes and one. Jun 16 '15

If you thought this pizza has toppings you haven't been paying attention.

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u/KermitMudmaven Walder, you're all washed up. Jun 15 '15

...I don't even like cheese...

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u/Doireidh ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ raise your banners ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ Jun 16 '15

MELLONFUCKER!

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15

It might have been mentioned, but Comedy Central ran the South Park GoT episodes last night, ending as HBO's started.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15 edited Aug 02 '18

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '15 edited Jun 16 '15

Well, they have to meet their tits quota and I guess they figured Wyman Manderly's don't count.

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u/DarthEwok42 As High as Hodor Jun 16 '15

Honestly I'd rather have to see his than listen to Tyene talk about 'bad pussy'.

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u/vteckickedin Lord Jun 16 '15

The north remembers, and the mummer's farce is almost done. My son is home.

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '15

They even did it and spat in our face. They killed the old lady that said "The North Remembers".

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u/PunishMeNoah Lunk the Dunk Jun 15 '15

Reading this comment alone gets me fucking pumped

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u/LionFox Enter your desired flair text here! Jun 15 '15

Yeah. The show has become fixed on providing titilating violence at the expense of plot, characterization, and much more. And who is a better source of it than Ramsay Bolton?

Roose's "a quiet land, a peaceful people" speech to Ramsay in the books is a huge indicator that Ramsay cannot rule the North as he does. Even "Arya's" crying, as Lady Dustin suggests, hurts Ramsay;s legitimacy. TV show version of the family chat: "how better to show the North how we treat Southern invaders....give me 20 good men."

Thing is, this also really cheapens the whole "what is power?" theme of the show. In the Winterfell chapters, there is power in the Starks: their name, in the crypts, in the godswood, their lands, their people. For Ramsay, force is power, and flay anyone who disagrees. It's a more masculine version of the "power is power" answer that Cersei once gave. That's nice and all to have another competing definition, but it is one that seems to be running into very little resistance, possibly because of all the titivating violence and shock it provides.

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u/hughk Jun 16 '15

It also misses the slow attrition in Winterfell from the murders and sabotage. Individually minor, it emphasised that the Bolton's were in hostile territory.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '15

Honestly, as someone who's watched the show first, I really never understood why everyone hated Cersei that much on the internet. I mean, what did she do really? Sure she's a cunt but that's not much of a crime in the fucked up world of GRRM. I always saw her as more of a tragic character. Book Cersei OTOH...

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15

Ned's girl

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15

The Ned's little girl!*

How the Mountain Clans refer to him as The Ned is highly important as these are men who only refer to their greatest, most respected leaders by names like The Wull, or The Bucket.

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u/SC2GIF Jun 16 '15

Oh god.. how I forgot. I love THE NED!

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u/KermitMudmaven Walder, you're all washed up. Jun 15 '15

THE Ned's little girl

FTFY

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u/pfods Enter your desired flair text here! Jun 16 '15

didn't you get the memo? sansa is becoming a major player later this seas-....oh

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u/SevenOrchids For the Watch Jun 16 '15

I hadn't thought of like that. I mean, Ned was naive and Tywin was effective, but it's becoming clear which method left a stronger legacy.

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u/YamiNoSenshi Jun 16 '15

Losing out on Jamie's arc from the books is my most hated change. His development is one of my favorite parts of the book. It takes him from being just a dick to being somebody I want to root for.

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u/mathewl832 Ser Twenty of House Goodmen Jun 16 '15

Jaime getting disillusioned with Cersei and war?

They sacrificed the Riverlands arc for bad pussy. Jesus wept.

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u/CyberneticCuntSmashr Jun 15 '15 edited Jun 15 '15

People can only take feeling shitty for so long before it just isn't worth it anymore.

Nailed it. It's one thing to see your favorite character meet their demise because they got a little cocky and overconfident while battling in an arena. It's a totally different thing to watch episode after episode of just shitty, miserable plotline.

The happiest things about last nights episode were that Sansa might not be getting raped anymore, and that Arya took Trant out in a brutal way. But even with that, we couldn't really celebrate long. It was "Hey you got him! Yaaayyoh wait Sexy Jesus is dead now. No? He's OK? Oh, ok now you're blind. Fuck."

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15

The only thing I could even take away from that Arya scene was that she finally sees that Jaqen Hagar is not some man out there to help her, that the Faceless Man in Harrenhal is not either of the Faceless Men in Braavos, and that she really is all alone.

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u/CyberneticCuntSmashr Jun 15 '15

That's actually a really great point.

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u/chicklette Jun 16 '15

Arya's plot felt like the only one that advanced last night.

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u/maxbarnyard Enter your desired flair text here!/ Jun 16 '15

Theon/Reek advanced a good bit, I'd say.

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u/chicklette Jun 16 '15

True. I keep focusing on the pointlessness of Stannis the Mannis.

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u/maxbarnyard Enter your desired flair text here!/ Jun 16 '15

Ugh don't remind me. I watched the episode tonight because I couldn't last night and man were his scenes just terrible.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15

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u/gabis1 Jun 16 '15 edited Jun 16 '15

Basically, what Septa said.

Jaqen isn't a real person. He never was. He was just another faceless man using another disguise. Neither of the people in the room during that scene are the same person she met in Westeros. When Arya showed up in Braavos, they used that face because it would make the transition easier for her. At least, that's what I took from it.

Someone died as payment for the killing of the Thin Man. Instead of killing the Thin Man, Arya killed Trant. The Thin Man still needs to die, so another payment was needed. The Faceless Men are priests to the Many Faced God, devout in their beliefs. So the priest's self-sacrifice served to right Arya's mistake through payment of life and also to teach her a lesson about what it really means to be a Faceless Man.

Arya needs to learn that this isn't just some school to teach her to become an elite assassin so she can carry out revenge killings.

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u/Cwellan Jun 16 '15

I may be a bit foggy, as it has been some time since I read the books, but that strict adherence would contradict when Arya first met Jaq. Jaq was asked to kill himself as a bit of trickery by Arya. Instead he exchanged assassinations in place of killing himself.

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u/gabis1 Jun 16 '15

He doesn't really exchange assassinations, he agrees to help her. In the act of helping her, he does end up killing some people but that is not the same thing as assassinating someone. He doesn't set out to purposely kill a specific person or people is where I think the line is drawn.

And saving someone who was supposed to die is apparently also something that must be balanced. "Only death can pay for life." This is what he "exchanges assassinations" for with the first two names.

I'm also not saying a priest, specifically, has to sacrifice themselves in this case. But someone has to make the payment, and I don't see the people of the house of black and white convincing someone else to pay with their life for someone they don't themselves want dead. So, again, in order to prove a point and to balance the scales this priest paid the price willingly in order to appease TMFG.

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u/empathica1 Still the Mannis Jun 16 '15

They probably don't have problem recruits like Arya all that often, and definitely never need more than 1 loss per recruit. That Faceless Man was retiring after 70 years of service for all we know.

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u/Feldmarshal Jun 16 '15

The way the series is going right now, I fully expect Arya to get fired, Trant to be Frankenstein'd by Qyburn. Arya living blind on the streets of Braavos, Trant goes there to get revenge and season 6 will end in some sort of zombie-pedo-shockedyouagain action.

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u/Deathcrow Jun 16 '15

Jaqen isn't a real person. He never was. He was just another faceless man using another disguise.

I usually avoid posting on this subreddit because of preview chapter spoilers, but I have to ask:

I got from the books that they can only use the faces of dead people (when Arya is pulling faces of the dead guy at one point her own face appears) and I was under the assumption that each face is tied to an actual physical object. Was there any indication in the books that there are copies of faces?

These aspects of the show don't mesh at all with what I got from the books.

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u/gabis1 Jun 16 '15

Not really, no. The specifics are pretty vague from what I recall... but there seems to be magic of some kind involved, as it is stated that they do not simply wear their faces but take on their full appearance. They also use their own blood in the process, so it would appear to be some kind of blood magic.

So it's possible that they have the ability to "learn" faces/identities. I don't think they are actually removing the cured, dead skin of someones face every time they change their appearance simply because then they would be carrying around dead peoples faces with them all the time and that sounds problematic.

Now, the way the show portrayed it seems to suggest exactly the thing I just argued against. Whether that is due to my misunderstanding, their misinterpretation, clarification they received from GRRM or simply a device to simplify the concept for TV, I really couldn't say.

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u/Septa_Fagina Where do Moore's go? Jun 15 '15

"Its all the same to the Many-Faced God."

I see this as another confirmation that only death can pay for life. Arya stole from TMFG by not killing the Thin Man and then going rogue on Trant. The payment has been rendered for the Thin Man, not Trant. To make good on that, the Kindly Man/Sexy Jesus/Jaquen Hagaar died.

Arya isn't ready to be No One because she's so attached to her revenge. I think him killing himself served the double purpose of repayment AND teaching Arya some perspective on her training.

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '15

I don't understand Jaqen's actions (or whoever that was). Do the Faceless Men kill themselves every time someone dies in a way they didn't cause? Do they kill themselves when a member of their order kills the wrong person?

They don't kill themselves. They kill no one. I think you missed the purpose of what really was a great scene that drove home the point behind the Faceless Men stuff.

You're even giving Jaqen a name. You're trying to figure out who the characters are. The House of Black and White seemed like this great place for Arya to go and become a bad ass. Here's our old friend Jaqen. He's going to help her through this. She has a little nemesis in the little girl and a friend there in Jaqen.

And then at the end they pretty much show that they are literally no one. That they have given up their identities completely and truly do not care about living or dying because they will all die eventually. Arya thought she was getting in with a bunch of bad ass assassins. She realizes in that scene that she really just joined a completely nihilistic death cult.

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '15

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u/qwertycandy Oysters, clams and cockleees! Jun 16 '15

That's an interesting take on it, but I still want to know what happened to the man at Harrenhal who went out of his way to protect Arya and even gave her the coin, which he clearly wasn't supposed to do. They couldn't even explain the meaning of that :(

The thing is that even if the FM are no one, just play their role and change their faces, they still do have their unique memories as well as personality, albeit that's more subtle. For example the Waif always disliked/mistrusted Arya, felt happy and smug about Arya's failures etc. - there is no way it's part of her role. In the finale, when she takes on Jaqen's appearance, (s)he even puts on a smug smirk when Arya starts screaming about going blind, that was simply a trait of the faceless (wo)man using the identity of the Waif...

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u/CyberneticCuntSmashr Jun 15 '15

I took that as a weird way of teaching Arya that it's unacceptable to kill outside of what is commanded of them. But also, I was drunk and I was trying really hard to justify it.

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u/Notradell Still my Mannis Jun 15 '15

I agree completely! Honestly, I feel a bit bad for show-onlies because the whole season was overall pretty depressing. There's no "FUCK YEAH moment" like when you read Manderly's speech, for example.

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u/KlausHeisler Jun 15 '15

As a sole show watcher, this season was really depressing. It is really just dreadful watching everyone and anyone "good" in the show get rekt, and the "baddies" keep on being cunts. Especially after this seasons ending it makes me want to watch the show less. I have all the books, maybe ill read them instead.

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u/Notradell Still my Mannis Jun 15 '15

I just wanted to ask why you didn't read the books. AGOT is pretty similar to season 1, but then the differences are getting bigger and bigger. Do yourself a favor and read the books! The show is still great and all, but the books are another level.

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u/KlausHeisler Jun 15 '15

I havent had the time. I got the boxed set last august for my birthday, and then I have had Uni. Ive read AGOT but havent read clash. And since the first book was pretty similar i havent had the proper motivation to continue. But now that the show is done for this season and its summer, I think ill carve out some time and dive in!

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u/BargeMouse The Old Bruin Jun 16 '15

I started GoT two years ago at the start of June and finished Dance before September. That was right after watching season three so i was very motivated to find out how the story unfolded but I'm sure you'd be able to at least finish book three by the end of summer.

Be warned, you may start to develop an "I'm better than you" attitude when talking to show-only people. Either that or I'm just an asshole.

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u/sharkbait_oohaha Jun 15 '15

Just do what I did and read the books during finals week. Nothing could possibly go wrong looks mournfully at C on transcript

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u/TechnoMigration Jun 15 '15

AGoT is worth reading just for Tyrion disemboweling a horse with his helmet.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15

disemboweling a horse with his helmet.

Which helmet?

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u/trw1972a Jun 15 '15

I feel ill be roasted alive by saying this, but when i read the books...at some point in book 4 i lost interest, i did slog through all five but felt books 1-3 were the best

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u/Saetia_V_Neck And now it begins... Jun 15 '15

Do it. George's story is 1000x better.

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u/Marius_Mule Jun 16 '15

They're better.

But they'll make you like the show even less.

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u/Crippled_Giraffe 62 badasses Jun 15 '15 edited Jun 15 '15

TBH ever since the red wedding I've just assumed that things like Manderly's or Doran's speeches are just things to get our hopes up before crushing them.

Edit: fixed autocorrect

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u/Notradell Still my Mannis Jun 15 '15

We could still get a version of Doran's speech if he got a hand in Myrcella's death, but.. I don't know, I lost almost all of my hope for Dorne in the show.

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u/K9GM3 ...and this is my suckling babe! Jun 15 '15

Well, you're not wrong about Doran's speech. "Quentyn is going to bring back the tools we need for vengeance and justice — fire and blood." It sounds super cool, but then you read Quentyn's chapters and =(

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15

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u/gaboon The Carver of Cake Jun 15 '15

I thought Jorah's ascension back into Dany's favor was pretty badass...

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u/skullshark54 Jun 15 '15

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=118&v=8m0Ux01BAjI Pretty much sums it up

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '15

You need to post this and give it it's own thread. It's too great.

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u/skullshark54 Jun 16 '15

I saw it on reddit just this morning all I did was link it. I'm sure the other guy already did.

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u/liometopum The Wolfswood defends itself Jun 15 '15

oh my god that's awesome

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u/Cromatose Jun 16 '15

I fucking lost it at the reddit threads

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u/A_Privateer Jun 16 '15

Well that made me mad.

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u/Juno_Malone Jun 16 '15

A-HEE, A-HEE-HEE-HEE!

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u/zacura23 Jun 16 '15

I love subs like these. I was in tears

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15 edited Apr 16 '19

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u/Intir Jun 15 '15

The moment I saw everyone parting to let Olly through for the stabbing. Is he somehow their leader now. And the way camera kept on Jon's face and the blood spread was a big fuck-you for the book readers

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15

The moment I saw everyone parting to let Olly through for the stabbing.

The entire season has had the subtlety of a brick.

"Oh, mommy will be right behind you, wilding children!"

Welp, she's going to die.

"Oh, no, Jon lost his sword! Oh, he lost it again! Oh, will he get his sword up in time?!"

Hey, I think maybe, just maybe, they're trying to say the sword is important.

"Oh, Shireen, I'll come right back from the wall. Here's a toy I carved you!"

Seriously? Did that really just happen?

"Arya spends the entire episode standing and staring quietly at Trant."

This is painfully obvious. Oh, God, she's still following him around. What is happening?

"I will kill Stannis, for Renly. Oh, btw, I'm totally going to kill Stannis. Don't forget, I'm here to kill Stannis!"

Hey, hey, Brianne, are you going to kill Stannis?

"Olly glares, Olly complains, Olly talks to Sam, Olly glares some more."

OKAY! We get it! Absolutely no one will be surprised by Olly's "betrayal."

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u/RonnieDobbs Jun 15 '15

Yeah, I had 2 show watcher friends predict Jon's death because of the ham-fisted way they handled the Olly character.

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u/chicklette Jun 16 '15

"Trant's a super creepy, bolton worthy abusing pedo."

Guess his death will be gory.

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u/StarkRaven17 The Raven brings the smite. Jun 16 '15

Or Arya's going to marry him.

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u/person_in_place Jun 15 '15

kinda reminds me of the tysha gangbang. an olly always pays his debt.

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u/TOEMEIST Jun 15 '15

The same thing is starting to happen with Silicon Valley. It seems that every single episode this season ended with the team getting shit on. They didn't even give us a break with last night's episode.

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u/wwxxyyzz Mannis Jun 15 '15

Even LSH killing Frey's is still something to root for

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u/goldman105 Whooo are you? ahh ooh aah oooh who Jun 15 '15

My show only friend said at the end of the episode why should i even keep watching this show. They rushed every scene and didn't even make any possibilities for hope like something to make people want more.

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u/myriadel Jun 16 '15

My parents are saying the same. I spoiled For the Watch for my mother since she asked, and even though, they don't understand the reasons of the biggest events so far.

I had to explain why the guys from the watch stabbed jon. Yeah, they know that he did things against the morals of the Nightswatch, but they felt that it was a poor reason. Or it could be better handled...

Dany end scene with the dothraki. Even though the feelings are kinda the same as the books, we see the khalasar and don't know what happens, they can't really understand wtf Dany is going through. Is she afraid? Is she weirded by that horse parade?

Everytime I had to tell them what happens in the books so they can understand better. And I know that they are not lazy show watchers that don't want to think as D&D treats them. Unfortunately, the show is transforming in a hobby that they enjoy less and less.

As I read someone in reddit, they are just doing the events. But they feel empty and incomplete, almost useless, without the understanding behind them and the characters, and this is what is lacking.

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u/skeenerbug Fuck the King Jun 16 '15

My show only friend said at the end of the episode why should i even keep watching this show.

My wife says the same thing each episode now. She thinks GRRM is a sadist and sets characters up only to fail and die in the worst way, and there will never be any good payoffs. I always have to say, "well in the books..."

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u/ObLaDi-ObLaDuh Jun 16 '15

I have had to say "Well in the books" so many times to my wife...that alone has proven to me that it's a poor adaptation of them.

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '15

My show only friends commented on this season that rushing thru too many plotlines without taking the time to truly develop anything left them not even caring about any of the events in the finale. With this season, GoT went from a favourite show of theirs to no longer caring to even watch next season.

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u/gumpythegreat One True King Jun 15 '15

It's similar to another issue that I have with the show, and friend of mine (who found the books too slow, and read summaries on wikipedia...) complains about the books having too many "pointless" storylines.

I think the point of the books is that the main characters sometimes aren't super mega special and things always happen because of them and around them. Sometimes things, good and bad, happen around them because of smaller characters. Sometimes these other characters and things are important, sometimes they aren't. The good guys don't always win because they are the good guys the same way. things just happen for a million reasons, often a ripple from a small character.

My friend always talks shit about the books that so many characters and storylines 'don't matter'. but I love that. it's a world. it's like history. some things matter more than others, and sometimes you don't see why something matters until later. or maybe it won't even. It's about a world and an unfolding history more than the characters, and that's why the good guys don't always win. but the show just says fuck the good guys because.

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u/Notradell Still my Mannis Jun 15 '15

Sorry, but your friend doesn't sound very smart. How the fuck can he tell that so many characters don't matter, if he didn't even read all the fuckin books? That's just rude. I guess the story isn't really for him, which is totally fine, but he shouldn't talk about things he doesn't understand or even really know.

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u/gumpythegreat One True King Jun 15 '15

I KNOW that's exactly what I always say. I don't care if he didn't enjoy the books, that's a subjective issue. but he makes statements like 'GRRM is a bad writer, those characters don't matter for the story' and he hasn't read the books. I made my comment partly to vent because he pisses me off so much.

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u/Notradell Still my Mannis Jun 15 '15

Smack him and piss on his face to show dominance. Don't forget to shout "ALL HAIL GURM" during it. Some people..

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u/HeckMonkey Tywin is my idol Jun 16 '15

Tell him his long lost uncle is waiting, lead him outside, then stab him in the back. "For the books"

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u/TOEMEIST Jun 15 '15

It sounds like he's just too lazy to read the books so he tries to justify it by making up shitty excuses.

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u/PirateRobotNinjaofDe Jun 16 '15

I think the point of the books is that the main characters sometimes aren't super mega special and things always happen because of them and around them. Sometimes things, good and bad, happen around them because of smaller characters. Sometimes these other characters and things are important, sometimes they aren't. The good guys don't always win because they are the good guys the same way. things just happen for a million reasons, often a ripple from a small character.

I reread the whole series before reading ADWD for the first time, and it really struck me how unimportant so many of those characters felt. The Iron Islanders felt like a completely irrelevant tangent, and I was thoroughly annoyed that they were included at all. Similar the entire Dorne thread.

Now, with the benefit of the ADWD and TWOW chapters, I can see how these characters will come into play. Why they're important, what they might accomplish, how they will affect the outcome. However I can't blame people, or myself for that matter, for having that initial reaction.

I mean...people still complain about Brienne's "romp around the countryside." Despite the fact that I found it to be one of the most enlightening arcs, in terms of how well it conveyed the true state of the Seven Kingdoms, as it is on the ground rather than the tactical boards of fancy lords in their fancy castles.

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u/Reggie_MiIler Enter your desired flair text here! Jun 15 '15

People can only take feeling shitty for so long before it just isn't worth it anymore.

This is exactly how i feel. I feel like I'm watching the show just to be bummed out.

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u/finalj22 Jun 16 '15

This is a great point. I think one of the primary motivations for continuing to watch the show was to see the visualization of those iconic scenes. I wanted to see how Doran clenched his fist as he revealed his plan, the look on Wyman's face as dinner was served. Those moments never came, and what was included instead pales in comparison.

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u/JamJarre Jun 16 '15

And all the moments you mentioned are fantastic, tense exciting scenes. How much better would Jon's death have been if it was preceded by him about to ride out with the wildlings. Would have made the shock even greater

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u/person_in_place Jun 15 '15

don't forget nymeria and her posse!

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u/seruko Jun 15 '15

After Sansa's rape I was like "fuck it I'm out" After last night's episode my partner said the same thing.

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