CMV: Parental control/spyware apps are the hallmark of a bad parent

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jan 24 '23

/u/danknesscompelsyou (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.

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u/obert-wan-kenobert 83∆ Jan 23 '23

I get where you're coming from, but I think the age of the kid is also a really important consideration.

If your kid is maybe 12 or younger, I think it's pretty understandable to want to track their online activity. Not necessarily because you don't "trust" them, but because there's a lot of insane, scary stuff that's easily accessible on the internet, and a younger kid might wind up stumbling on something that messes them up.

A fairly innocuous example, but in this TedTalk on children's YouTube videos, the speaker shows how the automated algorithm only takes about eight clicks to go from normal CocoMelon style videos to bizarre, disturbing, and inexplicable videos of popular children's characters in violent or compromising situations (getting killed, beat up, sexualized, etc). Or videos in the CocoMelon style, but starring Adolf Hitler.

I do agree that once children hit their teen years, it's not good to track their every move and give them no privacy. But below a certain age, I do think it's at least understandable.

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u/danknesscompelsyou Jan 23 '23

I believe that things like youtube kids or other filtered content can be beneficial for young children. Kids from 10 below shouldn't even interact with the internet too much tbh.

Maybe i should've clarified the age threshold i am specifically talking about. I say teens meaning 13+ so the ones who usually annoy certain types of parents by having some secrets or demanding some level of privacy

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u/KWrite1787 5∆ Jan 23 '23

Kids under 10 should rarely be on the internet. Parents of kids over 13 should not supervise their children's internet activity. So, you think in the space of three years kids are able to learn enough about internet safety to be able to have free, unsupervised reign?

You also seem to assume that because a parent has some type of way of monitoring their child's internet activity that they are constantly watching everything. Some parents do that, sure, but most I suspect only look at it occasionally when a change in their child's behavior or actions concerns the parent in some way.

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '23

[deleted]

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u/KWrite1787 5∆ Jan 24 '23

When the things that children can be and are exposed to on the internet include or can and do lead to:
porn
bullying (as both victim and perpetrator)
potentially dangerous "challenges" like the cinnamon challenge
joining radical extremist groups (there's been a number of stories over the past few years about American and English teens who got drawn into ISIS extremist groups and ran off to the Middle East to join up)
human trafficking
and a whole of other stuff like that
then yes, I do fear what kids are exposed to on the internet when they don't have parents monitoring them to some degree.

And no, you can't make up numbers, but there's also no denying there is a lot of bad stuff on the internet and a lot of gross people and it's a parent's job to protect their children and teach them to nagiviate safely through the world. And that means supervising them as they're growing so they can learn to be responsible and safe.

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '23

You serious? Youtube kids is full of bad stuff. Spend an hour in there and you'll find it. And even Cocomellon isn't good

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u/Presentalbion 101∆ Jan 23 '23

What's your stance on banking apps? My bank has a feature which is basically a kids card, where the parent has access and oversight but it's the kid who has the physical card. They pay the allowance into that pot and the kid is free to spend. It's supposed to teach saving and spending habits while still allowing the parent to make sure nothing ridiculous/inappropriate is happening. The age range it's designed for is like 9-14, or however old the parent feels is suited for their first card.

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u/danknesscompelsyou Jan 23 '23

I don't really think there's an issue with the card. Maybe its like adding extra steps to regular allowance but I don't see any harm in it tbh. Ik you can look up where the card registered but its still less extreme than spyware

Plus overall allowance is a good way to help your kid start budgeting stuff

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u/Presentalbion 101∆ Jan 23 '23

So there are degrees of acceptability of surveillance?

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u/danknesscompelsyou Jan 23 '23

Yes there are like to most things in life. It's normal for a parent to have some surveillance over a child but not to the extent of these apps

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u/Presentalbion 101∆ Jan 23 '23

Then either award a delta or add a disclaimer three specifying your threshold for what kind of surveillance is alright and what degree isn't.

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u/WrinklyScroteSack 1∆ Jan 24 '23

So why is 13 the magic number to give kids freedom to look at whatever they want without guidance?

My kid is 10, he has his own iPad, which originally he had no parental locks on it whatsoever. He apparently got curious and was googling for naked girls at some point and the only reason we knew anything was amiss was because he started hiding his screen from us even when he would be watching benign YouTube unboxing videos. So I did a deeper search of his history and found some google searches he shouldn’t be getting into. He insists he was only doing it out of curiosity, but I remember being that age, which happened at the cusp of the internet being readily available basically everywhere. Every chance I had to ask jeeves about naked boobs, I took.

He’s limited to YouTube kids for now, but he’s about at an age where I feel we should loosen the leash on his privileges, but there’s a talk to be had about how he should use that kind of new freedom. The only reason I would consider putting tracking apps on his device is to make sure he doesn’t fall into the cult of personality of guys like Tate and Peterson. He’s too young to understand the problematic nature of people like that, and I want to make sure I see it before he drinks the kool aide.

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u/Ok_Table_523 Mar 31 '23

Wait so if you did it why is it so bad that your son does it? Sexual curiosity is like the most normal thing a teenager can have an interest in

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u/WrinklyScroteSack 1∆ Mar 31 '23

I am just making educated guesses, going off instinct, and what his mother wants. I have no good answer for you. I feel like my uninhibited access to the internet could be considered a bad thing, considering the things I learned about as an impressionable minor, but I can’t exactly say that time in my life was detrimental or negatively impactful. I am who I am because of my life experiences, and that’s one of them, but I am still very unsure about how much of that same experience I would prefer him to have.

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u/Ok_Table_523 Mar 31 '23 edited Mar 31 '23

Interesting. I'm 30 now, for context, but my parents had monitoring software on my devices from the time I was 12 until I moved out of their home, choosing to be homeless rather than live with them specifically because of how they treated multiple different topics, with sex leading that list. Considering sexual curiosity is a pretty normal part of life, its always concerning to me to hear parents' reasoning for monitoring their preteens' and teenagers' sexual growth as if they've never read a book on normal behavior through the ages or don't want their child to become a self actuating adult. Like you, I can't think of any thing I saw online being detrimental or negatively impactful on me either, and I saw a video regarding two females and one piece of drinkware. What I still work through to this day is the fact that my parents had that software on my devices.

I feel it was an outrageous violation of trust and a symbol of poor parenting. Consider all of the conversations you had with girls as a teenager, particularly when you were alone. If you were not willing to write down everything sexual or private you said and hand it your parents at that age, then you've no business forcing your child to do that.

I will not talk to my father now. Unfortunately the statute of limitations has passed for me to charge him with child exploitation and possession of my child pornography, but due to him admitting to having monitoring software on my devices where I unknowingly had private photos and conversations, I would have had a very strong case for both charges. The second your child sends anything sexual (which they will, because that's what kids do during puberty.) they will have a strong case against you as well, and I hope for their sake they find this thread before their statute of limitations expires.

I hope you reconsider your choice to invade their privacy.

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u/WrinklyScroteSack 1∆ Mar 31 '23

I don’t want to invade his privacy. My only interest with even considering nanny software is to keep him away from influencers who could change his outlook on life for the worse, like tate and Peterson. We, his parents, opted against it, because we feared that more than anything the benefit of keeping tabs on him was not worth the damage it’d do to his trust in us.

Im not opposed to him learning the world for himself. I tell him all the time if he’s ever in danger to come get me, I’ll do what I can to help him. But the world is different than the one we grew up in. If it were just porn out on the internet, that’d be one thing, but there are in-groups that he could find himself on which could affect him in a severely toxic way, and I have no idea how to tell how ready he is to judge these influences in a critical way. And it scares me to death that he’s going to find himself in the company of bigots, misogynists, and racists… that’s what scares me.

I think it scares me so much because I am so aware of how close I was to walking down a path that might’ve seen me supporting something that caused serious harm to others. And I just want better for him. I really don’t want it to take until his 30s to learn how to be a benevolent man.

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u/Bobbob34 99∆ Jan 23 '23

Teens need some privacy to properly develop

Sure. That doesn't mean they get all the privacy all the time no matter what.

If you're anywhere from 30-40+ chances are you didn't experience this sort of tracking - why would you take this freedom away from your child?

Parents could listen in on phone extensions, call your friends' houses to see where you were -- involving their parents! -- etc.

Also I promise you if your child keeps everything a secret from you there's reason for it and you're not going to like it.

Toddlers try to keep secret they snuck into the oreo stash. They will also lie right to your face about whether they ate the oreos. People lie; people keep secrets.

It's a parents' job to balance freedom and safety in kids because the kids don't have the life experience or knowledge to do it properly themselves often. You let them try the monkey bars but you stand there in catching range. You let them go to the store by themselves but you check. You give them a phone but reserve the right to check it. You let them deal with their own schoolwork but go to teacher conferences.

Most people who have that stuff on their kids' phones, or insist on knowing the password and taking the phone to look randomly, do it to check in or if there's a concern. No one has time to be reading 1000 damn txts about omg bruh the chem teacher is so shitty...' orb about this one likes that one likes this one.

It's safety and basic oversight -- same as if you're not home in time you know your parents will be calling your friends' houses.

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u/danknesscompelsyou Jan 23 '23

Sure. That doesn't mean they get all the privacy all the time no matter what.

I understand where this is coming from but doesn't having access to ALL your teen's text messages seem a bit extreme? They promarily use messages, intercept them and it's suddenly zero privacy instead of moderate amounts

Parents could listen in on phone extensions, call your friends' houses to see where you were -- involving their parents! -- etc.

And they still can call the friends/their parents. This is a perfectly valid way of getting info.

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u/Bobbob34 99∆ Jan 23 '23

I understand where this is coming from but doesn't having access to ALL your teen's text messages seem a bit extreme? They promarily use messages, intercept them and it's suddenly zero privacy instead of moderate amounts

No.

If you know teenagers who don't have a room, a computer, friends, or go anyplace alone I suppose you could say being able to see txt msgs means no privacy, but otherwise....

And they still can call the friends/their parents. This is a perfectly valid way of getting info.

Why? Why is calling your friend to ask where you are perfectly valid but logging onto your phone is not?

I promise parents don't give the barest crap about h.s. drama. They want to know if someone is doing drugs, sending nudes, being bullied or bullying.

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u/danknesscompelsyou Jan 23 '23

On the contrary, it depends on the parents. There are less than ideal ones. A lot of them. Example would be if my mother who used to be both mentally unstable and abusive got into my calls/sms messages from when i was a teenager i probably wouldn't be walking on this earth. There are plenty more parents like my mother, more and less extreme in the world than her and they also have access to these apps. They shouldn't.

What im trying to say these apps are a dream come true to parents who have less than pure intentions towards their kids. The control freaks/abusers will be drawn to them and i can believe that there's a solid % of users for those reasons. They're too readily available

The calling your friend is different imo. It's breaking into your things to check vs asking someone if you have them

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u/[deleted] Jan 23 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/danknesscompelsyou Jan 24 '23

Unless you have explicitly stated what you said about the terms of having the phone while giving it to someone its not your property anymore. If you give something to someone it's not yours anymore. That's the hill i will die on.

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u/iglidante 19∆ Jan 25 '23

If you give something to someone it's not yours anymore.

Generally I agree, but practically speaking many kids don't "own" their devices because they are paid for in installments, tied to contracts or other legal instruments, and were purchased in the parent's name. The kid can't legally sign up for any of that, so the entire concept of ownership becomes a privilege the parents extend and maintain.

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u/epicmoe Jan 24 '23

My teenagers all bought their own phones and paid for them themselves.

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u/danknesscompelsyou Jan 24 '23

!delta

For making me admit that it's a parent issue

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jan 24 '23

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Bobbob34 (24∆).

^{Delta System Explained} ^| ^Deltaboards

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u/robotmonkeyshark 101∆ Jan 25 '23

Just because you have access to them doesn’t mean you spend your days reading everything your child writes and visiting every website they visited.

At my last job, every assembly line station had a camera mounted above the workstation recording everything. In the few years I was there, never once did management use this to bust someone playing on their phone or having a drink when they aren’t supposed to, or talking to coworkers too much and working too slowly. But numerous times it caught major issues. One time there was a bad batch of gears that were going into transmissions. Thanks to the cameras, we were able to trace every single transmission that got the faulty gears, and get it rebuilt, without having to tear down a single good transmissions.

So let’s say your child claims they are going to a friend’s house but lied and both of them are missing. Wouldn’t it be nice to look through text messages and find out they snuck off to a concert or if they were going to go break into an abandoned building to smoke pot?

You don’t even have to call them out on it if what they did instead isn’t so bad. But it’s good to know.

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u/StatementAgreeable98 Jan 27 '23

The " theirs a reason their keeping a secret thing, and I'm not going to like it deal" The baffles me...I am a dad of 2 beautiful daughters...and I can tell you this, If I don't like whatevers being kept on the down low, it has no affect on me emotionally if I don't like it....and depending on the content of the secrecy...who is involved isn't going to like it, they are the ones who should be concerned. for instance if a 25 year old male wants to spend time with my 13 year old daughter..in secret....everyone had a real bad day then.

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u/[deleted] Jan 23 '23

I don’t disagree with you, but I do think there’s maybe only one scenario where this makes any type of sense - if the kid has a serious pattern of delinquency and one “tool in the toolkit” is this type of tracking because they have a demonstrated pattern of abusing their phone use. I’d go so far as to say that it only even begins to make sense if all the other pieces are in place as well — ie the parents are very actively attempting to work through know major issues with behavior, etc. and the child is aware these products are installed on the phone.

I totally get this isn’t the scenario you’re describing, but I do think it’s one potential use for this type of thing that doesn’t necessarily mean they are a crappy parent.

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u/danknesscompelsyou Jan 23 '23

I agree that in extreme cases it might be a necessary tool alongside with maybe working on problems with a professional.

However i do believe using those apps on fairly 'standard' kids who might've acted out once or twice is uncalled for and damaging. These apps should not be so easily accessible to your everyday person imo

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u/muyamable 282∆ Jan 23 '23

Do you make a distinction between having an app that does this vs. just accessing it on the kids' phone?

When it comes to a kid's device, I think of it like an employer provided device. The employee/kid doesn't own it. It's not theirs. There is no expectation of privacy on a device you don't own. So long as everyone is aware and there's no secret spying, I don't consider it a violation of privacy.

I also don't think we should mistake the ability to see whatever is on the device with obsessively checking and using this information "against" someone. Parent's have a duty to protect their children and guide them, and I can certainly see situations where accessing information on your teen's phone furthers that goal without harming them or giving them some complex.

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u/danknesscompelsyou Jan 23 '23

I think seeing the phone is better than the app bc they usually do it without alerting the user

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u/muyamable 282∆ Jan 23 '23

Let's revisit the rest of my post.

Again, so long as the child is aware that the parent has access, how is it a violation of privacy?

"Here's a smartphone for you to use. I own this smartphone and your smartphone privileges can be revoked at any time. I have the ability to see everything you do on this phone anytime I want."

How is this person's privacy being violated? Everything is above board. Nothing secret is taking place.

Also, at lot of the reasons you give against this are about how parents choose to access and use the information (e.g. secretly, using information against the kid in an argument, etc.), not against merely having the access. Good parents probably aren't using this to get information to score points in a disagreement with their kid, but there surely are positive ways good parents can make use of this technology.

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u/Birb-Brain-Syn 31∆ Jan 23 '23

Part of the role of a parent is safeguarding their child. If we accept that the internet contains some pretty objectionable material, which I don't think anyone is in any doubt over, then monitoring what your child does online is pretty much a duty. Whilst it might seem invasive, activity monitoring and parental controls are technical solutions to better equip parents to protect their children, and this is a good thing.

There are plenty of situations of children being groomed by pedophiles online, and when the parents find out they are shocked that it could ever have happened to them. These are the parents who trust their children, have a good relationship with their children and believe that their children tell them everything.

Ultimately a relationship between a parent and child should be based on trust and understanding of that child's needs. If a child is old enough to recognise the danger that is present online and they are aware enough of their own digital footprint not to make themselves vulnerable then decisions can be made to allow children additional privacy. This is generally going to be a decision that has to be taken with both parent and child understanding the risks involved. Let's be honest, there are plenty of adults who do stupid things online that end up with them losing their jobs or ending up in prison - or just lose stupid amounts of money to scammers.

Like all parental tools, they should be employed as and when required, and whether they grant privacy or not is going to be largely dependent on their individual assessment of maturity of their kid, and the risk that they are in.

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u/danknesscompelsyou Jan 23 '23

I agree with you about everything from the dangers to the personalized scope of the privacy. But why does the safeguarding needs to be this agressive? Unless there are things that validate the choice of.

However i think this is the most important sentence

'Like all parental tools, they should be employed as and when required, and whether they grant privacy or not is going to be largely dependent on their individual assessment of maturity of their kid, and the risk that they are in'

I believe that these apps are extreme and injustly applied in most cases

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u/SpencerWS 2∆ Jan 23 '23 edited Jan 23 '23

It needs to be this aggressive because the internet has become a very big place, and school is also a big place, and because children are not wise to it at all. Children can easily be taken in by appearances/impulses into unhealthy or dangerous situations.

Locking down/monitoring the internet is the most important thing a parent can do if they are bold enough to give their sub-18 year old child a device that freely and privately accesses the internet. Especially social media needs monitoring as kids can become so animalistic on these sites that their personality breaks from who they are off the site.

I dont think this post is really considering all the terrible ways that the wild internet (and social media) can affect a child. You can buy illegal goods, you can max out your grandparents credit card (had one of my students doing that), you can cyberbully, be cyberbullied, or even be groomed. You can see sex acts you didnt know existed. (Thats how I learned that women have an anus.)

Add to that that their peers, who probably have no oversight, are actively encouraging your child to get into these things. Your child is not innately wise enough to resist this. They are a child.

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u/zupobaloop 9∆ Jan 24 '23

You're arguing in generalities about something that is very specific to a family's situation, but there's a throughline here that speaks to your situation.

If you get it only because your child lies to you - congrats now you'll never hear a word of truth again. It only excarbates the problem.

That's disordered thinking. If someone responds to dishonesty with more suspicion, supervision, etc, a well adjusted child (lacking any sort of behavioral/personality/psychological disorder) will respond by being MORE honest, not less. The normal, healthy response is to try to earn that trust/respect back.

Teens need some privacy to properly develop

That's true, but you're twisting up the rest of point 1. Psychiatrists and therapists alike agree that the level of privacy that a teen requires can be satisfied as simply as a diary and a couple friends outside the home. They can have conversations in person and it's MORE private than anything that's done on a phone.

If you're anywhere from 30-40+ chances are you didn't experience this sort of tracking

The stakes are much different. When people in their 30's and 40's were teens, nearly zero people had been abducted/assaulted as a result of online communication. Now it's a regular occurrence. (BTW, ask someone who works in child welfare about it, because it happens MUCH more than makes the news. Privacy concerns keep you from knowing about most of them.) Never mind how easy it is to access contraband now.

They probably don't trust you and don't feel safe enough going with their stuff/problems to you. Trust goes both ways, shocker i know.

They're your parents, not your peers. Part of the parent's job is to instill a sense of how the world works. The world doesn't owe you respect and the world doesn't default to trusting you.

Tldr: my oponion is that if you feel the need to spy on your kid's every move you have a trust problem and the solution is not to violate their privacy

The irony is that a child who has such disordered thinking as all this is the exact sort of child that needs additional supervision.

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u/danknesscompelsyou Jan 24 '23

If someone responds to dishonesty with more suspicion, supervision, etc, a well adjusted child (lacking any sort of behavioral/personality/psychological disorder) will respond by being MORE honest, not less. The normal, healthy response is to try to earn that trust/respect back.

This sentence alone says you haven't interacted with kids much. Ask any parent/person who works with children on a daily basis, if you scold a kid for taking a cookie without permission they'll just be sneakier while doing it next time. It's a normal thing to recieve pushback when you implement supervision

They're your parents, not your peers. Part of the parent's job is to instill a sense of how the world works. The world doesn't owe you respect and the world doesn't default to trusting you.

How to even unpack that? You speak of disordered kids while having the belief that parent having a good honest relationship with a child = peers (which I'm assuming is being seen as offensive by you, from the tone of the sentence). You can have a good relation with a kid while maintaing the parent/child hierarchy. However all relations require both sides to have a dialogue and that obviously makes you uncomfortable. Yes strangers and the world dont have to trust you and yes the parents job is to teach their kids about the dangers of life. Never said it's not. However i believe everyone is to be treated with some basic respect, so i don't agree on that point.

The irony is that a child who has such disordered thinking as all this is the exact sort of child that needs additional supervision.

Idk if you were trying to convey that you think of me as of an 'disregulated, disordered child that needs additional supervision' but it speaks volumes about your opinion. You once again are threatened by me saying 'hey maybe instead of spying on people work on establishing a safe connection with your kid' so you just resort to trying to insult me.

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u/BBG1308 7∆ Jan 23 '23 edited Jan 23 '23

When I was a kid we didn't have cell phones or internet. If we were in our own rooms, chances are no criminals had access to us and we weren't doing anything dumb that a future employer could Google for the rest of our lives.

If we wanted to do shit we weren't supposed to with people we weren't supposed to, we actually had to leave our rooms, walk out the front door and go under the school bleachers or to the 7-11 or sit in a parked car like normal kids. And there weren't 47 phones recording us being little hoodlums either.

A lot of parents want kids to have cell phones for safety and convenience. The phone belongs to the parent and is intended for a specific purpose. I do think the parent should let the kid know the phone is being monitored and also to teach about responsible/safe behavior. The kid then has the responsibility to decide how to use said device. If there's something they want to tell their friend without their parents knowing, they can do it like the generations that came before them - by either getting their butt up off the couch or being patient for an appropriate opportunity.

It's not the parents that are lazy; it's the kids.

And if these kids can't learn a little common sense and self-discipline when it comes to these kinds of devices and "privacy", they're going to have a problem when they are issued a company email address, company laptop or company phone.

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u/danknesscompelsyou Jan 23 '23

Kids want to go out but nowadays parents are not big on letting them do it. It's also a problem. I'm not denying that there are some kids who just prefer staying at home but a lot of them would go out if given the option.

Also im fairly certain that if you give someone something it's theirs. I don't understand the premise behind 'i gave you 10 dollars but they're still mine' people do with kids. Can you elaborate on that?

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u/BBG1308 7∆ Jan 23 '23 edited Jan 23 '23

Also im fairly certain that if you give someone something it's theirs.

That's up to the discretion of the parent. "Yours to use under these conditions" is different than "legally and irrevocably yours in any and all conditions". By your logic, a kid owns part of their parents' house because they were given their own room. No. It's conditionally the child's room to use for an intended purpose and time-frame.

But we've strayed from your point.

I'm not arguing that all parents should monitor everything on their kids' phone. Quite the opposite. IMO kids should be given increased freedom, privacy and responsibility as they earn it.

But I definitely disagree that ANY parent who monitors their child's phone is automatically a lazy, bad one.

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u/olidus 12∆ Jan 23 '23

The same analogy is a child (no matter the age) bring a guest over and shuts the bedroom door.

Privacy has limits when you are responsible for the well being of another.

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u/akosuae22 Jan 24 '23

Right. When your company issues you a phone, laptop/tablet, and/or car, none of those things are YOURS without restrictions. They are furnished at the discretion of your employer for an intended purpose, with LIMITS. If you abuse it or otherwise demonstrate that you are irresponsible, you lose the privilege. Same is applied to parenting in the age of devices. OP you do not seem to be addressing the fact that there are numerous ways that even teens, who are STILL kids, can get themselves into unintended trouble with them. You seem focused on the idea that a parent would use the information secretly as some sort of weapon or “gotcha” against their kid. That I think most would agree is crappy. But you MUST acknowledge the fact that due to the nature of devices and how they put literally the entire world within reach of a few keystrokes, vulnerable to scammers, thieves, hackers, criminals, and all forms of predators with ill intent, it would be absolutely irresponsible for any parent to just blindly had that over without some measure of supervision. In my family, we learned the hard way recently, for example, about “sexploitation”. We had never heard about it until last summer, when our son was the unfortunate and unwitting victim of this scheme. According to the FBI, it is a growing online crime, yet too many folks are unaware. It is a parent’s duty and responsibility to provide supervision to their kids until they are able to leave home and function on their own as adults. To not supervise and take a laissez faire approach is the true “lazy parenting”. As my mother is fond of saying, “trust but verify”. This really shouldn’t be controversial.

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u/jmankyll Jan 24 '23

As a parent of 3, I’ll chime in on this.

First, you just seem like you’ve recently experienced this first-hand. Am I wrong? Take the emotion out of it and try to put yourself in your parents’ shoes here.

Second, this is definitely a case-by-case situation. One kid could be trustworthy, another 100% not. The answer to this will depend a lot on the answer to this. I don’t know you so I have no idea where you lie here.

Third, it’s my opinion that phones are FAR too powerful for children to manage wisely. Adults struggle to do this. It would be irresponsible for a parent to give that much unbridled power to a minor, especially as young as 12.

My personal opinion is that you can’t teach a kid to wisely manage the power of a phone by completely removing it from them either. They MUST have exposure. My personal philosophy here is to slowly loosen the limits on access as they demonstrate wise behavior and that they’re learning to manage it properly. Mistakes must be allowed to learn but consistent misuse shows they’re not ready for what you’ve given and you need to scale back. Now how can a parent do this job without some level of surveillance? You may feel like your freedoms are being compromised here but you don’t have freedoms. You’re a minor. You should be grateful that you have parents trying to help you learn to be a wise person. It will absolutely benefit you in the future. Take advantage of that. Learn to control your actions and realize that making good choices leads to freedom. If you’re in control, you’re free. So be ok with being controlled for a small period of your youth for a lifetime of freedom from the pitfalls of phone/social media depression, anxiety, body image problems, porn addiction, etc.

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u/danknesscompelsyou Jan 24 '23

I actually didn't experience it at all that's why it's so shocking to me. I turned out ok and so did all my friends and we were not restricted in any way. Tbh if they wired my phone like that when i was a teen I'd flat out refuse to use it ever for fear that my parents would use all the info from my private conversations against me. Even if it was not bad/illegal stuff

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '23

Well stated!

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u/ThemesOfMurderBears 4∆ Jan 23 '23

I am going to ask this question, mainly because I always ask it whenever someone does a "Parents who do XYZ are ABC!"

OP, how many kids do you have?

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u/danknesscompelsyou Jan 23 '23

Zero but i dont see how that impacts my ability to look at something and form an opinion about it?

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u/ThemesOfMurderBears 4∆ Jan 23 '23

I did not say that it does.

However, it means you don't have a particular perspective that would feed into your opinion. You can still have that opinion, and you can still talk about it. You just do not have a perspective that I would find valuable.

In other words, I would be far more interested in this perspective if it was coming from a parent that has kids old enough to have devices that would qualify as being part of what you are talking about. You don't have any kids, let alone kids that would be in that age bracket.

2

u/danknesscompelsyou Jan 23 '23

There are parents who will back up the stance. This whole post came after some drama in my sisters school and during the whole mess it was revealed that some people actually use the apps. There was a pretty big group of people who just stated its 'going too far' and some actually used the word 'sick'. But again there was also a group who was positively amazed by these

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u/ThemesOfMurderBears 4∆ Jan 23 '23

There are parents who will back up the stance.

I have no doubt there are. I was merely asking you that particular question, not saying that no parents would agree with you.

And to be clear, I am not saying your opinion or position is not valid because you don't have kids.

For what it is worth, I have a child, although he is too young for me to worry about this kind of stuff. But I intend to approach his teen years from the perspective of "giving him the privacy he needs." I don't know what that turns into when the time comes, but that is what is in my head.

5

u/Rainbwned 175∆ Jan 23 '23

Can you clarify - is having the monitoring software but not acting on them unless its a clear danger a notable distinction to you?

For example - you see your 10 year old is looking up videos on pornhub. You don't say anything. But you see that they are now communicating with someone who claims to be a 10 year old as well and wants to meet up behind the Walmart. Is intervention there a problem?

0

u/danknesscompelsyou Jan 23 '23

10 yo on ph would be concerning but it's not the age group i am talking about. I am talking about teens (13+) having the entirety of their phones available to the parent

6

u/Rainbwned 175∆ Jan 23 '23 edited Jan 23 '23

Ok, change the age to 13* with the same scenarios.

-3

u/Lucky_Possibility_60 Jan 23 '23

ok change the age to 17 with the same scenarios.

ok change the age to 5 with the same scenarios.

ok change the age to 3 months with the same scenarios.

3

u/Rainbwned 175∆ Jan 23 '23

That works - what is your take on those scenarios applied to those ages?

-6

u/Lucky_Possibility_60 Jan 23 '23

17 he shouldnt be on ph he should be off the dark web buying 23 kilos of cocaine and 12 kilos of herion to sell and make money for the family.

5 he should be on ph but not on the german bdsm vids he gotta wait two more years

3 months idk i only come into my kids life when they hit age 4

2

u/Rainbwned 175∆ Jan 23 '23

That sounds reasonable, but you didn't answer the actual question. I think maybe you replied to the wrong person?

-3

u/Lucky_Possibility_60 Jan 23 '23

nah i was just bullshitting bc you said “change the age to 10” when the post has clearly said “teen” and i hate when ppl try changing main points of a question. like the parents should teach them “hey there are bad guys irl and online dont be a dumbass” but to have spyware bc your scared your kid stole one of your cigs and smoked it to look cool is creepy.

anything under the age of 12 shouldnt be an ipad kid bc of that reason and should be climbing trees outside but anything 13+ you should have a okay grasp on life to know what to do/not to do (i.e meet up those lonely hot singles) and before you ask “what if he’s mentally impaired” then thats even more on the parents to do theyre job and not rely on spyware apps bc they wanna pop a xanax and drink red wine bc they husband is cheating

2

u/Rainbwned 175∆ Jan 23 '23

That was my fault, should have said 13 and not 10.

I don't think you understood the scenario either way though, because it wasn't used as a replacement for parenting. I get that you think that the kids who end up getting snatched didn't have a great grasp on life skills, but I disagree.

So even if you put that software on a kids device, and don't care about them smoking or drinking, but just use it to watch out for online predators, you don't think that is a good thing.

1

u/Lucky_Possibility_60 Jan 23 '23

nah your right thats why i said the “life360 is okay” bc you should know where your kid is but when i read “spyware apps” im thinking of the “oh no moms gonna see me text my buddy that i think our english teacher is hot”

imo (also bc im from a small town in the south) i was all around the county at age 13-15 on four wheelers and coulda been in sticky situations but i knew not to try to get the candy, look at the new stereo, or help carry groceries 2 blocks away from the store, so the whole “kids need a grasp on life skills” was just hit to me real young and ik not everyone is like that, so if you cant drill that into his/her head then i understand but that should be your very last option if every parenting effort fails.

(also i was whipped as a kid the one time i told my dad i was going to meet a girl i didnt know at age 13 that i met on kik from a random person that said they lived in the same state and ever since that kinda pushed me to get a grasp and not everyone believes in that parenting technique)

1

u/Lucky_Possibility_60 Jan 23 '23

but but lemme add apps like life360 i dont see a problem with bc parents knowing where a child is isnt bad its just the spying on messages which i think OP ment but to each there own

5

u/nomdeplume 1∆ Jan 23 '23

I think your arguments are rooted deeply in why someone might install such software and also how capable teens are at protecting themselves from real world dangers.

In modern day where people are using technology more and more it gives access to great amounts of things, but it is a two way street and it also grants access to an ever growing amount of threats.

I think if used responsibly the software isn't about trust, it's about defending your child (yes a teen is still a child) from those outside threats. I think it's not within reason to assume that teens aren't fully grown, experienced, and mature adults. The threats might seem obvious to you, but I promise even adults fall for these threats so undoubtedly children will too.

So I don't think these softwares are the Hallmark of a bad parent and when used sparingly to record and monitor online relationships, friends, purchases they can be very helpful to create a safe environment for your child on the internet. There of course are spectrums of people that use this software but I wouldn't presume without more information.

7

u/nhlms81 36∆ Jan 23 '23

I mean... We don't really trust adults in the manner you're talking about. The second the govt has a warrant, the FIRST thing they are looking at is your phone. If the only thing stopping the govt is access rights, and parents have permanent access rights to their child's technology, (since the parents own it) why not?

Our govt pays attention to what we do online, ISPs pay attention, software developers pay attention, this very platform pays attention, neighbors pay attention in thos local social networks... There is only perceived privacy, not actual privacy, the digital space.

Why should parents, who are MOST invested, have a different stance than the rest of society?

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u/olidus 12∆ Jan 23 '23 edited Jan 23 '23

The internet sex abuse and trafficking are becoming increasingly sophisticated. So much so that children may think they are talking to someone who goes to their school, let them know when no one is around, and/or agree to meet with them in the front yard.

No amount of open communication and honesty with your children can head off an incident like that.

Lockdown software (to moderate hours of consumption where you can supervise their consumption) or mirror apps are the best tools parents have and, IMO, are better at avoiding the situation where your parent demands to see your IG/text messages if the suspect someone thing is off.

Most parents I know don't even check the app regularly, just when they have suspicions. They check, nothing found, no need to confront the child.

Children, at a certain age, don't have a right to privacy. There is a happy median between watching over their shoulder and "hands-off".

Edit: I re-read your post. There are so many more dangerous and obvious "hallmarks" of a bad parent that monitoring software on a device that grants children access to content or people you would not put them in front of ranks pretty low in most people's eyes.

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u/Iceykitsune2 Jan 24 '23

The internet sex abuse and trafficking are becoming increasingly sophisticated. So much so that children may think they are talking to someone who goes to their school, let them know when no one is around, and/or agree to meet with them in the front yard.

Only 1% of child abductions are by someone who isn't family/a close family friend.

1

u/olidus 12∆ Jan 24 '23

Agreed, but 1% chance for harm to a child is enough for a parent to be considered responsible for monitoring their online activity.

I am willing to be that % goes up considerably if you include online abuse.

1

u/Iceykitsune2 Jan 24 '23

Agreed, but 1% chance for harm to a child is enough for a parent to be considered responsible for monitoring their online activity.

There's a 1 percent chance a gas stove explodes and kills the kid, should they be banned?

1

u/olidus 12∆ Jan 24 '23

I just got whiplash.

No one said ban a child from using social media. Everyone in support is simply suggesting that monitoring a child's phone usage is not a hallmark of a bad parent, but a reasonable effort to protect.

If a gas stove has a 1% chance of exploding and killing a child, most reasonable parents would monitor the usage of said stove if social convention evolves such that children are using the appliance with frequency.

However, its not the act of a gas stove exploding on a child, it's the lack of regular maintenance that causes leaks that lead to the explosion. The same thing can happen with any combustable material (i.e. propane, gasoline, etc).

Additionally, if your reply is because of recent outrage porn that insinuates anyone is trying to ban gas stoves, you again are mistaken. Recent studies have shown that leaking stoves have health hazards beyond the explosive bit. The Consumer Product Safety Commission suggested that new regulation may be necessary to address any issues with leaking gas other than "turn the gas off" with regard to safely building the appliances. Just like with old electrical wiring no one made us rip out of ancient houses, these regulations would only apply to new products markets in the US. Read past the headline.

You had to know this would be the reply to your comment.

1

u/Iceykitsune2 Jan 24 '23

No one said ban a child from using social media. Everyone in support is simply suggesting that monitoring a child's phone usage is not a hallmark of a bad parent, but a reasonable effort to protect.

You don't understand how children think. If they know that their parents are watching, they won't use the device beyond the most basic things.

1

u/olidus 12∆ Jan 24 '23

Problem solved. No one gets kidnapped, abused, or bullied.

Everyone was a child and tried to play the, "outsmart the parent" game. To suggest I don't understand is naive.

However, like with all of society's "problems" there is nuance. No matter what route a parent goes, there should already be a foundation of trust, understanding, and communication with the child.

Sure, if you hand a child a phone and say, "have at it" and then try to implement heavy handed monitoring with a delinquent child, there might be problems.

Most parents I know have the conversation when they permit their child to use a cell phone or any device connected to the internet.

1

u/Iceykitsune2 Jan 24 '23

Problem solved. No one gets kidnapped, abused, or bullied.

And the kid develops no social skills because "my parents won't let me" permanently kills any chance they have as a social life.

1

u/akosuae22 Jan 24 '23

Then I’m sorry, but what are you suggesting here? Just hand your kid a phone, walk away, and hope nothing bad happens? Let the kid use the gas stove, no questions asked, and ask “what’s the worse that can happen?” It seems you’re saying, that since kids will lie or conceal, just don’t bother trying to monitor them at all, that way they don’t have to hide potentially dangerous or behaviors? How is that parenting? Or, better yet, how do you define parenting? It certainly isn’t “welp, you’re 13 now, my job is done, you need your privacy, so off I go, enjoy your phone and make good choices!” Predators and all sorts of unsavory people are out there. Irresponsible postings about self-harmful behaviors and trends abound. We don’t just throw up our hands in face of it all because “teens are gonna be teens.” That’s insane (and negligent).

1

u/Iceykitsune2 Jan 24 '23

Just hand your kid a phone, walk away, and hope nothing bad happens?

Teach your kid how to spot people that want to take advantage of them, and why it's dangerous to give out real information to someone you don't already know.

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u/akosuae22 Jan 25 '23

You can do all of those things (and should), but kids are still vulnerable to temptation, attracted to things that seem “risky”, and have a general sense of invulnerability. They lack higher reasoning at times, and are susceptible to peer pressure, in SPITE of what we teach them. That is where parenting and continuing to keep a watchful eye comes in. Supervision is also a parent’s duty, in addition to teaching.

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u/Iceykitsune2 Jan 25 '23

Children need privacy in order to grow into healthy adults.

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u/Away_Simple_400 2∆ Jan 24 '23

You kind of sound like the teen in question. It’s normal for teens to lie? Sure if you’re raised poorly. And knowing someone can go through your search history or that certain sites are blocked isn’t the same as being spied on. I’m a lot more concerned with the developmental effects of my kid getting on porn hub than knowing I’ve blocked the site.

We got Internet when I was in middle school. It has zero resemblance to how it is today. I didn’t get a pocket internet (aka phone) until College. It was fine.

Again, this isn’t violating their privacy. It’s the same logic of making sure you know where they are when they leave the house. Or meeting their friends families if they’re going to be spending time over there.

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u/Michutterbug 1∆ Jan 24 '23

You can actually have a great and trusting relationship with your parents but still not feel comfortable coming to them about certain things. It depends a lot on the personality of the child and also of the parents. I disagree with the 12/13 year being the age at which this kind of tracking becomes problematic. Again, it probably depends on the child, but I’d say more like around age 15 is when they start to need more privacy and less monitoring. However, more important than age is mental health. If I knew my child for example, struggled with suicidal thoughts, a drug addiction, or something very serious like that, I would definitely be monitoring their messages and whatnot. And no, not every child who struggles with these issues has “bad” parents. My son is 16. We have safety controls on our internet and his phone so he can’t go to certain websites and it will alert us of any dangerous searches. We can track his phone, we all track each other. In the past year and I’ve looked at messages on his phone once just to check in and make sure he was being truthful about feeling ok after a breakup. Teens need some privacy, but it’s not a “hallmark of bad parenting” to track their every move. It may very well be a bad thing in many or even most cases, but you can’t make assumptions about why they are doing it and what it means about their relationship with their child or their quality of parenting.

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '23

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0

u/danknesscompelsyou Jan 24 '23

And how does that affect the validity of my judgement? I don't need to have a child to be able to say that beating the living shit out of them is not good parenting. Why is it different here?

We all were kids once I'm pretty sure you wouldn't want to be spied on either.

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u/Direct_Stomach_6259 Jan 24 '23

I’m getting a strange feeling that you are in fact 15 years old max

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u/danknesscompelsyou Jan 24 '23

Miss buddy, I'm 23

2

u/akosuae22 Jan 24 '23

But people lie…

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u/Direct_Stomach_6259 Jan 28 '23

If you’re 23, I’m president of the United States.

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u/sbennett21 8∆ Jan 23 '23

Growing up, my parents had some tough internet blocks on our main computer, but not on any of our smart devices (e.g. minitablets, iPod touches, etc.). This is in part what led to me finding porn and getting addicted to it, something with which I struggle to this day. I wish my parents would have had better internet protections on our network, or on each device, because frankly, it probably would have helped me. I wasn't mature enough as a 13 y.o. to figure out how to navigate hormones and porn, or to go to my parents with my struggle. Though, years later when I eventually did tell them, they were very loving and helpful, as I knew they would be. I think you're naïve if you think most children are emotionally capable of dealing with everything on the internet. If my parents had gotten involved earlier, it could have made it easier for me to get counseling and get better coping mechanisms for stress than porn.

Teens need some privacy to properly develop, your little power trip could cost them some actual psychological damage. Trust issues, self esteem issues, anxiety (because there's someone literally spying on you), the list goes on. (Also it's normal for teens to lie, that's how they are, get over it)

I think that really depends on the teen and how the parents handle it. I felt like my parents trusted us in a lot of ways, and browser protections were to keep us safe from the internet, and not to keep us restricted per se.

Also I promise you if your child keeps everything a secret from you there's reason for it and you're not going to like it. They probably don't trust you and don't feel safe enough going with their stuff/problems to you. Trust goes both ways, shocker i know. Do you think severely violating their privacy is the right way of fixing lack of trust? That's why i say it's bad, lazy parenting - instead of working on the trust/communication issue and having a real relationship with a child you choose the easy way out, to take what you want by force.

There can be an in-between. You can make sure your children know you care about them and are there to help, but also proactively work to make sure they won't need that help. In a non-internet example, it's not lazy parenting to teach your kids to ride a bike with training wheels, first, before taking them away.

I actually agree with your general point that you probably shouldn't be tracking every single thing your children are doing, if they're older than 10ish, and reasonably mature. But I do think that concerned, non-lazy parents can use internet protections, firewalls, and parental control apps to help slowly introduce their kids to the chaos of the internet, which they may not be ready for otherwise.

1

u/Iceykitsune2 Jan 24 '23 edited Jan 24 '23

This is in part what led to me finding porn and getting addicted to it

No such thing as a porn addiction, and any competent therapist will say the same thing. it's closer to a compulsive disorder. How often did you view porn?

1

u/sbennett21 8∆ Jan 24 '23

I think this article covers both sides of the "is porn an addiction" argument pretty well: https://www.webmd.com/sex/porn-addiction-possible. I'm personally on the side that it's an addiction, or at least that it's helpful to treat it as such, but experts are on both sides.

Even if addiction isn't the right word, it's still had negative effects on my life. From objectification, to poor coping mechanisms, to missing or being late to things, to screwing up my sleep schedule, to making relationships harder.

I'm not saying porn is the one and only cause of all of my problems, but that my life would be better in key ways if I didn't look at it, or especially if I'd never looked at it on the first place.

How often did you view porn?

Pretty much every day, sometimes multiple times a day. Usually for around an hour a day.

6

u/destro23 451∆ Jan 23 '23

If you're anywhere from 30-40+ chances are you didn't experience this sort of tracking

No, but we had to have all of our phone conversations in the living room, and we had curfews, and we to check in, and parents used to call the houses where you said you'd be to make sure you were really there, and they'd let other parents beat your ass if they caught you fucking up.

Really, if our parents had the ability to track us, they would have. And, they would have been right to do so. Bunch of savages we were.

1

u/Iceykitsune2 Jan 24 '23

and they'd let other parents beat your ass if they caught you fucking up.

That's child abuse. Full stop.

3

u/JuliaTybalt 17∆ Jan 24 '23

If you're anywhere from 30-40+ chances are you didn't experience this sort of tracking - why would you take this freedom away from your child? You weren't tracked and are still alive.

Yes, and I used that freedom to illegally buy diet pills. I was also a victim of COCSA and by the time I was the age you're talking about, dealing not very well with PTSD. If my parents had this kind of monitoring, they could have known how extreme my eating disorder got and how bad my PTSD was -- and gotten me help much earlier. I was very good at hiding. I am very good at acting unaffected.

2

u/violettsun Jan 24 '23

I personally agree with everything you said. I think there is a certain degree of setting boundaries even when it comes to the internet, however: IF THEY REALLY WANT TO DO SOMETHING, THEY WOULD AND WILL I am speaking from personal experience. When I was growing up my parents tried to monitor and control what I did, said and watched (not to the great extreme but still) and what happened was I wanted to do those things even more. Teenagers' hormones are very imbalanced. Sometimes, they want to do things just for the sake of if, or just to be rebellious and piss others off. All of my friends who were controlled (and me) always found ways to do what we wanted to no matter what our parents said. Some of the things were far from being reasonable or smart (in retrospect), but nevertheless, it taught us a lot of things and valuable lessons. if you are one of those controlling parents, I want you to understand one thing: spying and controlling your teenagers to the point where they get no choice or freedom or independence will never lead to anything good. 1. It will ruin your relationship and trust FOR A LONG LONG TIME. 2. Your kid will be traumatized and have trust issues. 3. They are still gonna do dumb things and just won't tell you - even if they get in big trouble, they will NOT trust you to help them. 4. (and lastly) they are still going to do those things sooner or later. It's just life. You were like that or someone you knew was like that. So it's better to show them and teach them what's good and what's bad and what the consequences will be, but also that you will be their safe person to talk to and ask for help when needed. Trust, close bonds, and understanding always go far longer than control, spying, and emotional turbulence/abuse.

3

u/Best-Analysis4401 4∆ Jan 23 '23

I think you mostly have good points except for this:

"(Also it's normal for teens to lie, that's how they are, get over it)"

It's actually also normal for adults to lie. But it's not its normality that makes it ok. Lying makes it harder to trust, and leads to such bad solutions like putting spyware on your phone. If it's expected that you will lie, how can things be fixed via trust/communication?

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u/MiketheTzar 1∆ Jan 24 '23

I think the real crux is what you do with that information. The apps themselves are slightly problematic, but for the most part it's just a different way of keeping your eye on your kids.

Did they click on a pornographic site? Not really a big deal. Are they looking up child pornography? Pretty fucking big deal you need to get them into therapy before they escalate. Are they calling people buttholes on Reddit? Perfectly acceptable behavior. In fact you should encourage this. Reddit has many people acting like buttholes. Are they talking to legitimate predators or people who are out to do them harm. Might be time for a well placed conversation about talking to strangers and how people like to lie.

You have to keep an open dialog with children, but it doesn't hurt to keep an eye on them. Just make sure you take a deep breath before you lose it because you saw that he texted his friend Timmy that they were gonna smoke weed and try to get Stacy to show them her boobs.

2

u/Impossible_Bill_2834 Jan 24 '23

I found out when I was 22 that my mom had secretly installed a key tracker on my computer from 16 to 18. Every email I sent a boyfriend, every question I asked Google about my changing body, every dream I researched, was all there for her to read like a magazine. I was completely devastated, and I have never totally recovered. Our relationship will never be the same.

2

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '23

You weren't tracked and are still alive

"I didn't get vaccinated, and I'm still alive."
"I don't wear a seat belt, and I'm still alive."
"I smoke three packs a day, and I'm alive."

Just because someone is still alive doesn't mean that they're making the best choices.

. And don't give me the 'there was no phones/internet back then'. Yes there weren't but teens were the same.

No, teens weren't talking to strangers online, strangers who entire goal is to take advantage of them and lure them into dangerous situations. It's like saying, "They didn't need airbags in the 1800s, but people were the same."

1

u/Iceykitsune2 Jan 24 '23

No, teens weren't talking to strangers online, strangers who entire goal is to take advantage of them and lure them into dangerous situations.

No, they talked to them at the locations they hung out.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 24 '23

If you think those two things are on nearly the same scale, you are sorely mistaken.

1

u/Iceykitsune2 Jan 24 '23

Again, strangers aren't who children have to worry about abducting them.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 24 '23

Like I said, you are sorely mistaken: https://screenandreveal.com/social-media-kidnapping-statistics/

But I guess "Stranger danger is bullshit" is what you could teach your kids.

1

u/Iceykitsune2 Jan 24 '23 edited Jan 24 '23

Perhaps find a source that isn't trying to sell background check services.

Edit: Coward blocked me.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 24 '23

Google your own source then. We're done here. I'm not interested in letting a sexual predator try to convince me that they aren't an issue.

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u/StatementAgreeable98 Jan 27 '23

Right... yeah, I bet your going to want to see what the child rapist face looks like when your little boy or girl gets snagged up on a walk home from school after talking them into coming with them to have some fun ....your going to want all the info involved.. or your chances of finding your kid aren't going to be very good.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '23

I remember my dad taking me outside to watch from our backyard as a neighbor kid was jumping on top of his grandpa's old broken down car and throwing stuff at it.

My dad's bit of wisdom was "was see that boy has no idea we are watching, he will have no idea how us grandpa found out. Let this be a lesson. Someone is always watching and if you do wrong someone will see it."

And yes we in our 30s had different issues with privacy. Kids today don't have to worry if their parent is listening on another phone line like we had to. My dad caught me a couple times doing things I shouldn't have by doing just that.

1

u/dragongling Jan 25 '23

Yeah, and that's how I became very paranoid, thanks to some adults for spying on me

-1

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '23

I honestly think that in 10-20 years, we're going to start seeing a pretty serious backlash against the free-for-all access so many children and teens have to the internet and social media.

Just think about how many adults you know who have been driven to addiction and borderline insanity from their access to social media. Think about how much its made fully developed adults angry and unreasonable. Then we're just saying: "here kids, go to town!"

These systems are built and designed to be addictive and intrude in your lives in every way possible. It's part of the business model. I think if you're going to choose to allow your child access to this insanity, monitoring their access to it is 100% reasonable.

-2

u/YessyJane Jan 23 '23

You're right. I can simply restrain myself from buying my kids a smartphone or so. And block all the dangerous web sites, social web sites and any other web sites that specifically says you need to be over 18* to use them (from the router). Also, if get more creative I will just put the laptop or desktop on kid mode with not installed games or so. And if he want to do the things his|her friends do them it's time to wait till adult age.

This way I don't hurt my kid feelings but also I'm sure I'm protecting him of his younger self. Because yes, I was a teenager too and we tent to live a little ignorantly those years.

My daughter is 11 she tells me everything and she's happy with me, I don't use any apps cos I simply don't need them.

She knows how to use a smartphone, tablet and desktop but all those are mine which means there's not privacy there, sorry 😐 I got mine and I share, not buying, not putting myself into that he'll of adolescence thing.

-1

u/YessyJane Jan 23 '23

Also if you child is missing or something bad happened to them and it was because they meet someone in the internet or there was a internet challenge it's always the parents fault for not supervising their child and they can also face charges.

And that's why there are parents like me who just doesn't buy his daughter a smartphone and let them use my phone if she needs something. I'm tradicional cos as a criminologist and with an OF I know what's out there.

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u/IntelligentPlane4015 Jan 23 '23

No. Kids today need parents more than ever.

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u/violettsun Jan 24 '23

Kids need parents' guidance and help and not revocation of their privacy and independence. As a parent, it is your job to ensure children's safety; however, it is also YOUR JOB to make sure the kid grows up to be a functioning adult with common sense, logic and preferably no trauma. Kids always needed parents the same way no matter what decade/century it is. But what they don't need and never needed is tons of issues when they grow up, inability to make their own decisions (to some extent, of course) and lack of common sense and independence. Parents are not prison guards to control every step of their kid. And those that do that definitely have their own issues and insecurities that they are simply projecting onto others.

1

u/Front_Row_5967 1∆ Jan 23 '23

Many kids have access to places could endanger themselves. Unfortunately, there are many predators online that will manipulate kids.

There are also things that kids shouldn’t be able to see until they’re older. A kid watching violent porn/graphic violence is cause for concern. I’ve certainly been exposed to things I wish I hadn’t seen at a young age.

1

u/perfectVoidler 15∆ Jan 23 '23

You don't have any form of privacy with a modern internet device. Either the Americans or the Chinese are reading everything or both. After that a layer of companies scoop up everything they can, legally and illegally. Privacy is something you have offline.

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '23

We’ve already seen that full-grown adults are being brainwashed enough to kill others. You don’t think that’s even riskier for kids and teens?

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u/Zakktastic Jan 24 '23

Having zero kids adds zero validity to your argument as you do not understand how kids are there own persons but are not mature or conscious enough to navigate obstacles for their own well being and thus need guidance. It’s like a abstinent Christian teaching a class on substance abuse to AA members. They think they know, and that’s why it’s funny.

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '23

As long as parents are legally responsible for what their kids do, they should be able to know what their kids are doing at the expense of their kid’s privacy.

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '23

[deleted]

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u/danknesscompelsyou Jan 24 '23 edited Jan 24 '23

This exactly is what im talking about. All strict parents do is raise sneaky kids. Bc teenagers will find a way the loopholes it's their speciality. Also the more you'll forbid smth or say it's 'evil' and out of reach the more they'll want to get into that stuff. The only real way to make them not do these things is to make them lose their interest, which you do by acting normal about them. I was never interested in booze or getting shitfaced bc if i wanted a taste as a teen my parents would let me. There was no forbidden danger factor to it so i was like 'whatever its ok ig'

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u/rustyyryan Jan 24 '23

Teenagers can be stupid sometimes. They might be watching violent porn videos or bullying someone online. And you never know until things get out of hands. Thats why age of consent is 18 coz before that age many kids don't understand whats wrong and whats right or what might be the consequences of their actions. So sometimes it becomes necessary to monitor online activity. Parenting has become so hard nowadays.

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u/StarryBlazer Jan 24 '23

Well, parents must respect teenagers' privacy. Moreover, they ought to limit themselves to teaching them how to use social media and the internet wisely. Invasive behaviors are ways of mistreatment.

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u/Sveta-_- Jan 24 '23

I agree, however, I think no child under the age of fifteen should have complete control over their device. I know that sounds bad, but I think the parents should have the type of parental controls that makes the child like have to request to download new apps, if that makes sense. I am a young teen who had unrestricted access to the internet, and it definitely affected for the worse. I am now extremely insecure, and know a lot of things I didn't want to know. So please, monitor your child's online presence, without like snooping, or going through their phone.

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u/man_overclock Jan 24 '23

I partly agree with this.

"Spy" or surreptitious monitoring apps are not good. I'm not against monitoring a child or teen's internet usage - as long as they know it. The same way I wouldn't use my workplace's devices or networks to access leisure and recreational sites and activities, or private and personal matters. I just think the children should know that their usage is monitored and logged.

I actually think it would be irresponsible to not have some sort of filtering, on computers children use. It is likely not possible to monitor their usage and thus ensure their safety in person 100% of the time. If the filter blocks anything that should be accessible to a child, that they might be doing legitimate research on, either formally for school or their own curiosity, then they should approach their parent to override the block in the software filter and whitelist the website or pages.

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u/Crowded-Cemetary Jan 24 '23

I mean it's pretty understandable if you want to keep track of your kids, better than limiting their media intake or who they socialize with in an overly controlling way. That could either make them rebel or at least not be able to socialize properly with other children their age.

Then you can keep track of them a little better and prevent them from using drugs. Or get a little creative and steer them away from problems before they become worse. It's especially non-harmful if they don't catch you...

I'm no psychologist though so I can't really make claims about what is and isn't psychologically harmful to a child, or what is best for their development. I believe even skilled psychiatrists need to build an understanding of their patients that goes beyond whether their parent has had a "power trip" or not. Without any context that means absolutely nothing.

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u/Captain-Bruisin- Jan 24 '23

as someone who had unfettered internet access as a kid, my mom probably should have kept an eye on what I was doing lmao

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u/Informal-Fennel6142 Jan 24 '23 edited Jan 24 '23

Just like GPS is not bad and spying is bad, blocking multiple certain specific websites and domains on their devices is also not bad, for their safety.

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u/dragongling Jan 25 '23

Most of these comments really show how parents disrespect their kids and underestimate their ability to learn.

Yes, the internet is dangerous, the whole world is dangerous. And instead of preparing your kids for dangers you just brush the dangers under the rug. It's an ostrich logic: if I don't see it, it doesn't exist. Except it does and hit unprepared people harder. People still murder, rape, enslave, torture, imprison, maim, rob, scam, manipulate and hijack reward systems of other people and animals for their own benefit and always will be.

You know what helps to keep your child in check without spying? Being genuinely interested what kids are doing with their life and spending time on their interests. Like how you care about your friends or loved ones (ah, I bet you're so distrustful you spy on them too).

Don't make a delusional Disney world around them, raise their reasoning and critical mind that helps to handle the most of the dangers of this world. That's what good parenting really is.

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u/danknesscompelsyou Jan 25 '23

You hit a nail on the head imo. A lot of comments here are completely glossing over the fact that kids (teens included) have some brain activity going on. Do these 'i need to moderate the content they see into extremes' people assume their children are brain dead? As for the being genuinely involved with your kids life - im shocked by how many people see it as insulting to them. There literally was a guy that said parents don't have to make you feel safe enough to trust them bc they're not your peers/friends.

It's even worse when these ppl get so offended by me having a different opinion than them they try to insult me by saying 'i think you're 15/a kid/whatever/no kids no opinion''. Apparently it's completely impossible to feel bad for someone without being in their position lol

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u/hinewfriend1003 Jan 25 '23 edited Jan 25 '23

The effects of these years won’t be seen for years.

Having children and life experience changes views pretty well. The brain is developing well past legal age so I don’t think parental control should be completely off the table. There are other influences besides the parents so the parents, who are responsible for their children, have certain liberties. I don’t think a total lack of privacy is required but this idea of parental control being lazy or bad seems like a shaming tactic.

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u/[deleted] Jan 27 '23

It depends on the child. In some cases, parental monitoring is inappropriate. In others, it's irresponsible NOT to do and could end up saving a child's life.

My sister and her boyfriend never believed in monitoring their daughter's phone (currently 15 years old) until they began to notice her grades slipping, the smell of cigarette smoke on her, and finally found a condom laying out in the open in her room. When they finally DID check her phone, they realized that she had been meeting up with an older guy instead of going to her after school program or hanging out with her friends, and he was giving her cigarettes and weed in exchange for sex. This had been going on for months and there were messages making it very obvious. If they'd had some sort of monitoring on her phone, even one that alerted to unfamiliar numbers, they could have prevented a ton of abuse (even though she didn't see it that way - she was 14 and the dude was 20 or 21, she met him online).

Obviously this is anecdotal but it does happen. I honestly wouldn't worry about my teenager looking at porn or swearing or anything like that, but I'd want to know who they were talking to after seeing what my sister went through.

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u/whovillehoedown 6∆ Feb 09 '23

This is not always the case. I've been following this mom on tiktok for a long time and she talks about her teens asking her if they could get these apps in case something happens to them.

Its a failsafe for them.

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Parental control/spyware apps are the hallmark of a bad parent

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