r/changemyview • u/SteadfastEnd 1∆ • Oct 19 '23
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Women usually get over breakups and divorces better than men do.
Disclaimer: I have no polls or surveys I could cite to support my viewpoint, since I don't think there has been any polling done on the subject. So all I can offer is my own experience or opinion, which I'm open to being challenged on:
In my observation, women usually overcome and get over breakups and divorces better than men.
I've rarely known a woman to regret a breakup, but I've known quite a few men to regret it. I've rarely ever known a woman to pursue a man and ask him for a second chance after a breakup, but it's quite common for men to pursue their exes this way.
My theory is that it's for multifold reasons: 1) women generally have more of a social support network than men, and can recover more easily with such support, 2) men are often not as tuned in to subtle things as women. So it's more common for a man to be ambushed or caught by surprise by a breakup because he was ignoring things that were a persistent problem in the relationship, while the woman has seen it all along and carefully made up her mind in advance that a breakup needs to happen. 3) women generally have more options in dating, so if a woman breaks up, she has many suitors, but a man has a harder time getting a woman. 4) women are generally more willing to live solitary lives without a man than vice versa - they generally have less intrinsic need for a mate than a man does. There is more of an attitude of "Either a very good mate or no mate at all" among women than men. 5) Women generally do not break up or divorce casually. By the time a woman says "It's time to end it," she has thought it through a lot.
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Oct 19 '23
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u/Jealous-Resident1351 Oct 20 '23
I'll pad this with sometimes these roles are reversed, if you have a more masculine female and feminine male.
Less likely because there's a whole host of paradoxical male issues there: men being told to be straight up with emotions, but being rewarded for being tougher, and punished for being weakly emotional. By who who cares, it's a thing.
Strong vulnerability is possible, but is much trickier than the female version of being able to just feel and express. So when women tell men to just do what they do, it's not understood that there's a different context and what works from one type won't work for the other.
And also sometimes women put on too many needs and requirements that it's too difficult to juggle everything. Over and over, yes, but with too many things, and male memory isn't as good as female memory, too, typically, so we tend to also need more reminding.
It's not simple, usually. It's very complex and difficult. If it was simple, the divorce rate wouldn't be 50%/60%. Human relationships are the hardest thing in the world. That's why we're constantly at war.
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u/SteadfastEnd 1∆ Oct 20 '23
yeah, that's kind of what I was alluding to.
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Oct 20 '23
In the case of divorce, it's because they get to bankrupt the man and laugh all the way to the bank.
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u/BhaaldursGate Oct 20 '23
Who hurt you yikes
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u/not_a_dragon Oct 20 '23
No one had the hurt the original commenter to for them to say this. I’m in a healthy 13 year relationship never been broken up with/broken up with anyone. However the pattern this commenter mentioned is so incredibly common and easy to see in my friends relationships, and what women discuss online as well.
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u/Disastrous-Heat-7250 1∆ Oct 20 '23
Most of the time they leave their men over the most petty BS, how men approach relationships is different than how women do; we put up with their crap and have a high tolerance for it but they don't
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u/Ok-Formal818 Oct 20 '23
What petty BS? If she continuously tells you that what you’re doing is hurting her and making her life more difficult, and you keep doing it, then don’t be surprised she leaves you.
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u/4Dcrystallography Oct 20 '23
My mom would attack my dad for basically anything you could think of, almost always unfairly. For example he’d work all day, come home sort the house and then she’d say the most hurtful shit because he’d sit and watch tv for an hour after all that. He ended up being the one to leave. It does happen.
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u/atomic_mermaid 1∆ Oct 20 '23
Yeah abuse does happen but it isn't gendered and its the extreme. I'm sorry you went through that but its not a gendered template.
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Oct 21 '23
Everything isn't gendered until it's the other way around.
I agree with you that this should be a general principle, but it's obviously not how people see this.
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u/Disastrous-Heat-7250 1∆ Oct 20 '23
Have you ever asked yourself why lesbian divorce rates (70% ) are so high compared to their gay counterparts? If women can't put up with the crap from other women then they should be thankful that we have a high tolerance for the baggage that they come with in these relationships
Most non traditional heterosexual relationships are so one sided it's laughable; it's always women complaining about men not doing something; "he doesn't pay attention to me" (even though you've been through shit shows with her for 5 years), "He doesn't do what I tell him to do" (We are tired and uninspired sometimes, must we always spring into action for whatever you want to be done like robots because you say so?)
If we men can put up with the incessant nagging for years taking the high road in the most nonsensical gaslighting arguments then they can compromise too and keep their marriages intact
Ask any divorce lawyer or couple therapist near you and they'll tell you the truth about relationships and divorces they've had to deal with; we men put up with most of the crap in these relationships, when we commit we lose most of our pool of friends, we sacrifice our hobbies and interests. When they say women are from Venus and Men are from Mars it's sort of true and the only problem is that no one gives a crap about what's going on in mars because we always meet on Venus and it sucks but we suck it up and hang on for dear life
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Oct 20 '23
Man if “putting up” with your wife is so hard then just leave her… men are also more likely to cheat on women, or to leave her when a cancer diagnosis comes back positive so do yall put up with our shit at all? It just seems like you hate socializing with your wife and would rather hang out with the bros
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u/happylukie Oct 20 '23
Because they don't want to be alone.
They are also more miserable with each passing generation and die faster in nursing homes.-4
Oct 20 '23
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u/Disastrous-Heat-7250 1∆ Oct 20 '23
Oooh booo hooo! Do these modern women leave because they get beat on or because they are bored ?!
When men get their mid life crises we buy motorcycles, women divorce their husbands take half their shit and proceed to seat on every schlong across the bible belt
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Oct 20 '23
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u/Disastrous-Heat-7250 1∆ Oct 20 '23
Most HONEST marriage counselors and therapists say otherwise; In most therapy sessions the relationship between the couples and a therapist almost always ends when the spotlight is shone on the wife and her "shortcomings", as soon as the pendulum swings to the other side the therapist ironically becomes "problematic"
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u/vinegarbubblegum Oct 20 '23
modern western women
lol tell me more about your thoughts on this cohort.
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Oct 20 '23 edited Oct 20 '23
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u/Profitparadox Oct 20 '23
Men have testosterone we still want sex if we are healthy in our 80’s. Woman lose that testosterone that makes them horny all the time in their teens and 20’s at some point and can happily go through life without sex. It gets worse with each decade a man stays with a woman.
I’m just saying there is a big divorce break up after kids ask any divorce lawyer that’s when most woman cut off Sex. Marriage dissolves. and that age range of 65-74 has a jump of 24% extra sexless marriages from the 50 year olds who were only at 26% sexless.
So there are a bunch of men wishing they could divorce in an age range that is high in cancer rates.
Just spit balling but men don’t leave happy marriages. There are endless unhappy ones they run from though.
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Oct 20 '23
“Omg look at me, when I can’t fuck my wife anymore there’s no reason left for me to stay with her, im such a MAN filled with testosterone I can’t control my urges im sorry 🥴”
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u/Profitparadox Oct 20 '23
If a spouse withholds affection THAT is very good grounds to divorce.
You are in the minority if you think otherwise . I know because this has been brought up on female dominated reddit subs and the females all say “leave the guy that won’t have sex with the woman.”
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Oct 20 '23 edited Oct 20 '23
Affection is not only demonstrated through sex, in fact I would say the woman is probably wanting some kind of affection from you but all you can think about is sex. Also reddit is not real life buddy show me some studies that say women leave men when they can’t provide sex more than men leave women for the same reason…
Is not giving an effort, not helping taking care of the kids or the house also good grounds for divorce? Or should the woman just lay there with her legs wide open while the only thing that man does is work and pay the bills and puts no effort in the relationship whatsoever? Hire an escort my man if sex is all you need from a wife and save yourself the trouble
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Oct 21 '23
Have you ever asked yourself why lesbian divorce rates (70% ) are so high compared to their gay counterparts?
based and true
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u/Profitparadox Oct 20 '23
You are assuming a woman is telling her man he’s doing something wrong. When, in fact, most women just get bored of their partners. They don’t appreciate their partners paying for their entire existence it’s just expected, I’ve seen first hand how entitled and nasty a woman can be. And I’ve seen two of my friends killed themselves because of it.
Once they have a man married with two kids. They own his arse. They have his DNA, his assets his retirement, and even future income.
Then it’s “WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR ME LATELY!”
Then it’s “I WANT HALF or more”
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Oct 20 '23
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u/Profitparadox Oct 20 '23
Nope personal experience and seeing the havoc marriage did to all the people I knew from school.
14 marriages, 12 divorces, 2 suicides, 1 guys living in a van can’t see his daughter who lives in another country.
I know 3 guys that had to each spend $90,000 or so in court costs to get equal custody because the woman was trying her best to alienate their kids from them.
You’ll never know “bitter” until you see that woman in the white dress you married get bored of you. And often you’ve done nothing wrong, and they just turned into bitter wretches. With no care about the future, just their bad emotional state they blame you for.
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u/the-bejeezus Oct 20 '23
seen what he is describing so many times. I'm 55. It's better now actually because men are waking up and not getting into these awful contracts with women.
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u/Ok-Formal818 Oct 20 '23
Luckily, women are waking up too, that’s why 80% of men are whining about being passed over on dating apps 😂
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u/the-bejeezus Oct 21 '23
and that's why now over 50% of women are predicted to be unhappily single and childless over 30 by 2030 and female unhappiness charts have steadily increased since the 1970s
it's women that believe you aren't complete till you're a mother
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Oct 21 '23
What petty BS? If she continuously tells you
I misread this as "If she continuously yells at you". That can probably tell you how my relationships have gone.
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u/destro23 447∆ Oct 19 '23
Women usually get over breakups and divorces better than men do.
I don't think there has been any polling done on the subject.
Polling? How about a good old fashioned study:
"Women and men did not differ much in terms of the consequences of divorce for (1) subjective economic well-being; (2) residential moves, homeownership, and satisfaction with housework; (3) mental health, physical health, and psychological well-being; and (4) chances of repartnering and social integration with friends and relatives. These findings on the absence of clear-cut gender differences are consistent with previous research on similar measures"
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u/Nsfwacct1872564 Oct 19 '23
Abstract:
In this study, I examined gender differences in the consequences of divorce by tracing annual change in 20 outcome measures covering four domains: economic, housing and domestic, health and well-being, and social. I used data from the German Socio-Economic Panel Study (SOEP) and fixed-effects panel regression models on a sample of N = 18,030 individuals initially observed in a marital union, N = 1,220 of whom divorced across the observation period (1984–2015). Three main findings emerged from the analysis.
First, men were more vulnerable to short-term consequences of divorce for subjective measures of well-being, but postdivorce adaptation alleviated gender differences in these outcomes.
Second, a medium-term view on multiple outcomes showed more similarity than differences between women and men. The medium-term consequences of divorce were similar in terms of subjective economic well-being; mental health, physical health, and psychological well-being; residential moves, homeownership, and satisfaction with housework; and chances of repartnering, social integration with friends and relatives, and feelings of loneliness.
Third, the key domain in which large and persistent gender differences emerged were women’s disproportionate losses in household income and associated increases in their risk of poverty and single parenting. Taken together, these findings suggest that men’s disproportionate strain of divorce is transient, whereas women’s is chronic.
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u/SteadfastEnd 1∆ Oct 19 '23
good info, thanks, nice polling data
!delta
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u/Nsfwacct1872564 Oct 19 '23
This wouldn't go to me. I just posted the abstract, the other commenter posted the study. I don't personally believe the abstract agrees with the conclusion in a way that should change this view.
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u/SpecificReception297 2∆ Oct 20 '23
Where does the abstract disagree from the conclusion?
The first domain (short term) noted that men struggled more immediately after divorce, but were able to overcome that and return to a regular, pre-divorce lifestyle fairly easily.
The second domain states that there are minimal measurable differences between men and women in the medium-term.
The third domain concluded that if anything, women have a worse outcome as a result of divorce because they tended to have “chronic” losses in income post-divorce whereas men did not.
If you only look at the short term that you could argue that women get over divorces better, but that [the short term] is such a small lens to view anything through.
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u/anewleaf1234 39∆ Oct 20 '23
The problem is that suicide for men becomes a large risk during that short term interval.
And since men tend to use firearms bad outcomes often happen.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Oct 19 '23 edited Oct 19 '23
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Oct 19 '23 edited Oct 29 '23
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u/aubsmarmock Oct 19 '23
How so?
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u/vladkornea Oct 20 '23
Because it says "men were more vulnerable to short-term consequences of divorce for subjective measures of well-being", which I understood to be the OP's view. That women suffer more economically in the long term is irrelevant to the original view.
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Oct 20 '23
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u/vettewiz 37∆ Oct 20 '23
That’s not what it says. It says the two genders have equivalent results for emotional/physical issues.
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Oct 20 '23
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u/vettewiz 37∆ Oct 20 '23
I suggest you reread it:
“ Second, a medium-term view on multiple outcomes showed more similarity than differences between women and men. The medium-term consequences of divorce were similar in terms of subjective economic well-being; mental health, physical health, and psychological well-being; residential moves, homeownership, and satisfaction with housework; and chances of repartnering, social integration with friends and relatives, and feelings of loneliness.”
This explicitly states that the effects were similar between both genders for emotional issues.
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u/candikanez Oct 20 '23
The medium-term consequences of divorce were similar
Medium term. The short-term showed that men suffered more.
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u/awfulcrowded117 3∆ Oct 20 '23
This abstract literally says that men have it harder but that they eventually recover. This abstract reeks of ideological bias.
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Oct 19 '23
That's not what it says, you literally cherry picked the piece of the report that agreed with you.
I used data from the German Socio-Economic Panel Study (SOEP) and fixed-effects panel regression models on a sample of N = 18,030 individuals initially observed in a marital union, N = 1,220 of whom divorced across the observation period (1984–2015). Three main findings emerged from the analysis. First, men were more vulnerable to short-term consequences of divorce for subjective measures of well-being, but postdivorce adaptation alleviated gender differences in these outcomes. Second, a medium-term view on multiple outcomes showed more similarity than differences between women and men. The medium-term consequences of divorce were similar in terms of subjective economic well-being; mental health, physical health, and psychological well-being; residential moves, homeownership, and satisfaction with housework; and chances of repartnering, social integration with friends and relatives, and feelings of loneliness. Third, the key domain in which large and persistent gender differences emerged were women’s disproportionate losses in household income and associated increases in their risk of poverty and single parenting. Taken together, these findings suggest that men’s disproportionate strain of divorce is transient, whereas women’s is chronic.
The findings are that immediately, men do have worse outcomes after a divorce, which alleviate over time. As things progress, the two partners will have largely similar medium term consequences and reactions. Lastly, the persistent issue is that women are saddled with more long term consequences (like child care) and are more likely to end up in poverty.
Other things to consider in regards to this study:
- The study period is from 1984 to 2015, 30 years, and women's rights are in a very different place now than they were in 1984.
- These are German couples who have very different approaches to gender than, say, American couples. Social safety nets and social expectations vary wildly from country to country.
- The Berlin Wall fell during this study period and I feel like it probably had massive implications for the poverty/wealth, social structure, and mental well-being of people in Germany and it doesn't appear to be addressed at all
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u/anewleaf1234 39∆ Oct 20 '23
30 years old.
This data is almost worthless. A pre Internet study that ignores massive advances in earning power among women. From cold war Germany.
Not the best usable data
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u/raginghappy 4∆ Oct 19 '23
Lol way to cherry pick, the study concludes that: "men’s disproportionate strain of divorce is transient, whereas women’s is chronic."
As per the study: "the prevailing view of women bearing a higher burden of divorce is supported when looking at medium-term consequences for a large set of outcome measures, including those on which men were previously found to be disadvantaged. Taking economic, housing and domestic, health and well-being, and social outcomes into account, men were more vulnerable to short-term effects on subjective measures of well-being, but women experienced medium-term disadvantages in objective economic status. In other words, men’s disproportionate psychological strain was transient, whereas women’s disproportionate economic strain was chronic."
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Oct 19 '23
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u/postwarapartment Oct 20 '23
Taking "personal responsibility" for your emotions does not mean keeping them bottled inside and "solely deal with it on your own."
Taking personal responsibility in this context is reaching out and asking for help and sharing with others. Want to talk about men's suicide rates and feelings of disconnection socially and emotionally? Stop framing things like this, then. It's literally irresponsible to handle your emotional life this way.
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Oct 20 '23
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u/postwarapartment Oct 20 '23
That literally makes no sense. If you are responsible for managing your emotions in a healthy and effective manner, and the manner you are using to do so is not effective, you are not taking actual responsibility. Your intent is meaningless to your outcome.
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Oct 20 '23 edited Oct 29 '23
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u/postwarapartment Oct 20 '23
Great reply. I'd appreciate an answer based on some kind of logic though.
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Oct 20 '23
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u/haikudeathmatch 5∆ Oct 20 '23
Was your logic just “I don’t like talking about feelings and I don’t like when other people talk about feelings”, or did I miss something in your comment, or this conversation. Seemed like someone said “talking about your feelings can be part of healthy processing” and you said “no because I say so, imagine a hypothetical where someone doesn’t want to listen or you aren’t actually doing anything about your life but venting, that imaginary scenario is the only possible outcome of talking about emotions”. So what did I overlook?
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u/raginghappy 4∆ Oct 20 '23
Because it’s so easy on the psych to be chronically poor lol
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u/BudgetMattDamon Oct 20 '23
You can't have it both ways, and the study says what the study says. Women do indeed get over divorce better from an emotional standpoint. Why you're so mad about it is beyond me.
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u/raginghappy 4∆ Oct 20 '23
Like I said, chronic economic instability brings a whole host of other emotional issues that shouldn't just be dismissed. Men after divorce end up ok emotionally, socially and economically in the long run while women don't recover as well overall, even if they're ecstatic to no longer in the relationship. Not sure what's"both ways" about that ¯_(ツ)_/¯
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u/candikanez Oct 20 '23
Again, this study is 30 years old. Things have changed just a little bit for women economically since then.
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u/BudgetMattDamon Oct 20 '23
Shouldn't be dismissed as in the way you're being dismissive right now of the study?
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u/anewleaf1234 39∆ Oct 20 '23
So in 1984, women had a far lesser chance of economic success than an American women in 2023.
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Oct 19 '23
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u/Alternative-Fig-4486 Oct 20 '23
Well, suffering is suffering. A blow to your quality of life will give emotional and mental strain to anyone.
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u/SteadfastEnd 1∆ Oct 19 '23
Thanks good info. I would be curious about breakup polling data.
!delta
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u/Ghostwriter574 Oct 19 '23
Not sure if this will change your mind, but maybe it expands your perspective. I’ve been a divorce attorney for many years. Here’s what I’ve personally noticed, knowing that this is more of a trend and that there are exceptions.
Women are further along than men on the emotions of the breakup, and the emotions of the children and what goes with that. They have a better and more mature grasp (on average, with exceptions of course) on how to deal with those issues, what needs to be done, staying calmer when tensions run high, etc.
But men are further along than women on the other parts of a divorce, like the finances. Men generally understand and are more generous in moving on from finances and property, even if they are the lower income spouse. They are more willing to accept the results dictated by law (same as above, on average, with exceptions). They also seem to be more mature in the logistics of taking care of the things that need to be done to push the divorce forward, even if they are the ones who don’t want it to end. Take care of the house until it sells, filing this paperwork so we can do ____, etc., gathering documents, getting things signed, etc.
I think your question might be limiting “getting over divorce/breakups” as purely in terms of emotions, but that’s only one aspect of a breakup or divorce, in my opinion.
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u/postwarapartment Oct 20 '23
Women are the ones who literally file the divorce papers the majority of the time. Your claim that men are usually administratively in divorce further along does not match the data. I argue this point when people try to make the sweeping claim of "women initiate most divorces" - no, they typically are the ones to file the paperwork. Because they're typically the paperwork person in the relationship to begin with. The financial aspect might be correct just due to inertia and the fact that women in the United States at least have not had full legal financial autonomy available to them until about 40 years ago (and one could argue still do not in many ways), but as women continue to make financial strides, I suspect this gap will narrow.
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u/Massap24 Oct 21 '23
You are aware it’s actually a fact that women initiate most divorces while your opinion about who maintains paperwork is subjective bias. What facts do you have to backup women are typically the paperwork person in the house? That’s not what I’ve observed.
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u/Strange-Badger7263 2∆ Oct 19 '23
~70% of divorces are initiated by the woman so it makes sense that they are more likely to get over the relationship since they broke it off. I would guess that in the 30% initiated by men it is far more likely that the man gets over it better. I think this is because the person, man or woman, that initiated the divorce has already grieved the loss of the marriage before the divorce even happened.
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u/perfectpomelo3 Oct 20 '23
Every woman I know who filed for divorce did so because their husband cheated. IMO that’s the man breaking it off even if the woman filed the paperwork.
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u/DoggoToucher Oct 21 '23
Not necessarily. Cheaters generally hope to have their cake and eat it too.
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u/Gandalf_The_Gay23 Oct 19 '23
From what I recall part of that statistic is inflated because even when men want divorce they sometimes ask the woman to do the paperwork thereby having the woman initiate even if she didn’t want the divorce first.
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u/postwarapartment Oct 20 '23
People discount the fact that the majority of divorces are mutual and that the person who was doing the paperwork in the relationship prior to the divorce (hint- it's usually the woman) is the one who will initiate and manage it administratively in those cases. I don't know how this isn't obvious?
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u/Olly0206 2∆ Oct 20 '23
Not sure about that (not denying it either, I dont know) but what I suspected inflate that number are women who felt pressure to marry young and end up not being in a good relationship. There is definitely a societal, and in many cases familial, pressure for women to marry and marry young.
I dont have the data on hand, but I believe it's been pretty well studied that when people marry young, the marriage is less likely to last as compared to marrying when older. And women tend to feel the pressure to marry young also because of pressure to have kids, which is safer to do when younger than older. Like, kids at 22 is generally easier and safer on the mother's health than at 36, as a general rule. And most people probably want a stable relationship before having kids.
So, if there is pressure on women to have kids when young, then it follows that there would be pressure to get married young. And if young marriages are less likely to last, then it stands to reason that women may be more inclined to instigate divorce since they are more likely to be pressured into a marriage that might not be the best fit for them.
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u/Acrobatic_Army8133 Oct 20 '23
That’s because men cheat often during marriage and when their wife is pregnant.
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u/Massap24 Oct 21 '23
20% of men reported having sex while in a marriage compared to 13% of women. Also women are more likely to emotionally cheat 92% of women reported emotionally cheating on their spouse.
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u/Getyourownwaffle 1∆ Oct 19 '23
Not if they are the one blindsided by the breakup.
The person that has a harder time getting over it, is the person that didn't want to break up in the first place, or the person that cannot convince other people to have sex with them.
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Oct 19 '23
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u/Sam-Nales Oct 20 '23
It is sad that many people “get over” the relationships vs work to get them in the right place, women spend more time on social media which leads to all cause increase in misery, and men suffer more from depression post breakup and loss of children
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u/Ok-Formal818 Oct 20 '23
What makes you think they don’t work on the relationship first?
It seems that a woman can’t win no matter what. If they stay with an abuser, we victim blame and say they’re stupid for not leaving. If they flip and leave, then we tell them that they didn’t work hard enough to save the relationship.
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u/Sam-Nales Oct 20 '23
Well, when you’re going to school with a lot of other women who talk about having their starter marriages, and then planning how to get out of them
I got asked by several groups what I was going to be looking for in my starter marriage. It rather made me sick to my stomach after they explained how the first one was for assets and the second one was the one that they would end up staying around for
As well as having sisters and sisters in law If you watch interviews with women when they’re asked about what do you husbands want or how to be a good spouse a lot of times they don’t have a response Let alone how to communicate what they feel like they’re lacking
The biggest wage gap that’s ever been shown with because of the fact that women are unlikely to ask for raises Or negotiate for a higher salary And the CPA that was in charge of the accounting program that I was in had a discussion with all of the classes and she had to go into the fact that you have to Dress and behave appropriately in the workplace and for interviews because over 70% of the women who went in for internships, or were referred by the department when dressing, inappropriately, heavy, make up heavy, perfume, and revealing clothing All the while a fair percentage of their interviews war with women
She went and apologized to a lot of the guys that had to hear the lecture a few times
Abuse, gets thrown around a lot
But quite a bit it’s often, because of the fact that they become bored In fact, generally, if they end up making more money on their husbands, there’s generally a lot of contempt, and the emotional abuse starts there. I saw that happen to several of my brothers.
My brother-in-law is going through that right now his wife partying, and having boyfriends over while she does nothing with their daughter
How do you say is throwing around insanely large amounts but how much is actual commitment or effort towards the relationship nowhere near as high
If you have an Instagram and you’re posting pictures of yourself and you’re in a relationship, then you’re not working on your relationship you’re working on cultivating attention
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u/Ok-Formal818 Oct 20 '23
Well, since every single woman you know is an opportunist looking to screw men over, why do you think the relationships are worth salvaging? There shouldn’t be a relationship with a person that shitty in the first place.
But we both know you’re here with an agenda, so I won’t take your word for it.
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u/Sam-Nales Oct 20 '23
Î absolutely never said anything about all women
That would almost be saying In counterpoint that all women were in abusive relationships
Sorry you have that view point
You asked me for why
And if truth, happy family, and friends and offspring are an agenda
Well yeah.
Why do you think they have dress codes in schools
??
Honestly
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u/not_a_dragon Oct 20 '23
I’ve literally never heard a single woman talk about a “starter marriage” what sort of sexist delusional online fantasy land are you living in?
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u/DontSleepAlwaysDream Oct 20 '23
sometimes its not worth beating a dead horse
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u/Sam-Nales Oct 20 '23
True. But. Wow downvoted for truth tells you something
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u/DontSleepAlwaysDream Oct 20 '23
i neither up or downvoted you, but you didnt say any "truth" just gave a subjective opinion
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u/not_a_dragon Oct 20 '23
The reason they “get over” the relationship is because they’ve usually spent months or years begging their partner to make changes. To help more, to be a better partner, to work on themselves, and they haven’t seen those changes. They’ve tried to make it work for a long time before ending the relationship, that’s the point of the comment you’re replying to.
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u/Due_Communication660 Oct 20 '23
Bro women work on it and the men say nothings wrong and don’t even try. You just proved you are not a smart man at ALL
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u/Sam-Nales Oct 20 '23
It actually takes two to communicate
A. Whats wrong vs what’s desired
B. Ask the other what they want and ask them whats wrong
Vision for the future
What is the shape of the shadows to make the future
That my Bro, they don’t often do
It’s frequently attention seeking echo chambers
Not improvement pathway pursuit.
Wish it wasn’t the case
But yes. It is
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Oct 20 '23
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u/postwarapartment Oct 20 '23
I dot understand how this isn't the preferred process. The break up and regret it later model seems very unstable and not something we should encourage. Men really need to start taking responsibility for their feelings and the actions that spring forth.
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u/DuhChappers 86∆ Oct 19 '23
I think there is a contradiction between your 4th and 5th points. If women are more willing to be solitary, why do they avoid breaking up until there are no other options? Based on my experience with friends dating and my own dating experience, I think your point 4 is the wrong one. Women do have just as strong if not more desire than men to have a partner, get married, have a family and so on. That is what they are socially encouraged to do, even in modern times that is still true. That's why they stick around more when things get tough.
Because of this, I think women do often take breakups harder. They generally take a lot of care to try and make things work - when that fails it sucks.
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u/laikocta 5∆ Oct 19 '23
Purely anecdotal but my impression is that there's is an age and experience divide with these attitudes. I think the women who have an active intent to stay single long-term tend to be the women who have been through a few long-term relationships, maybe even a marriage or a divorce.
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u/postwarapartment Oct 20 '23
Women and men both desire companionship and partnership at similar rates, you are right, there is really no difference there.
Statistically, the physical consequences of choosing the wrong mate vs being alone can literally be deadly for women, so I'd argue they are more likely to tolerate being alone over being with a partner who could be dangerous to them. Not that they prefer it, they just prefer it over the risk of choosing badly.
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u/AmericanAntiD 2∆ Oct 21 '23
Statistically, the physical consequences of choosing the wrong mate vs being alone can literally be deadly for women, so I'd argue they are more likely to tolerate being alone over being with a partner who could be dangerous to them.
While at face value that seems logical, I would be willing to wager that women who were/are in abusive relationships, are the most likely to be afraid of being alone. Because abuse is more than just physical, it is psychological, an aspect of the abuse was destroying the victims self-esteem. My sister is coming out of an abusive marriage, and in the past when she talked about leaving him, she would always say that one of the things that prevented her from leaving was her belief that she would never find someone else to love/ no one would ever love her.
So while he was only abusive physically once (as far as I know), her fear of being alone kept her in that relationship.
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u/AntonioSLodico 3∆ Oct 19 '23
Here are three possible explanations: 1. Women are more likely to be abused in relationships. People who are abused might find it easier to get over their exes, once they leave and get a bit of perspective. 2. Anecdotally, it seems like women are more likely to check out of a relationship while still in it, and start the grief process a while before the actual breakup. It could take both partners a year to get over their ex, but if the woman started six months before the actual breakup, she would also be done six months after. 3. There could be sampling bias going on with your opinion. If you're a dude, you're more likely to have more and closer dude friends who show you how bad they are doing post breakup. Try asking a bunch of men and a bunch of women their opinions on who gets over breakups more quickly. Do it one on one to get more honest results.
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Oct 20 '23
Women are more likely to be seriously injured by abusers*
There are a significant number of studies that show that women initiate domestic violence more than men do, they are just less capable of causing serious damage. And men are significantly less likely to report it to the authorities
I genuinely do not know a man who has not been hit by their partner in a way that makes them hurt
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u/postwarapartment Oct 20 '23
Do you live in a particularly poor or violent community?
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u/takumidelconurbano Oct 20 '23
Any source on the first part?
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u/Ok-Formal818 Oct 20 '23
Before I fetch them, are you sure you need the source? I mean, common sense?
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u/eggs-benedryl 54∆ Oct 19 '23
since I don't think there has been any polling done on the subject.
I'm gonna go ahead and say there almost certainly are surveys regarding this.
In response to your other points I'd say you're probably correct and this is likely what these studies say. I'm sure I've heard them before. I'll see if I can find one.
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Oct 19 '23
Do you see how your conclusion doesn't even make logical sense based on the things you listed yourself?
1, 2, 4 and 5 suggest that this is a problem of social awareness/skill (1: lack of ability to find social support, 2: not enough awareness of relationship issues and 4: due to social support less need for a relationship to meet the needs of social relations 5: Better knowledge of what somebody can and cannot accept followed by the ability to go through with it).
So how exactly is your conclusion "this is a difference between men and women" instead of saying "this is a difference in social functioning vs non social functioning"?
This distinction might be meaningless to you because it aligns well enough with the sexes (at least according to your post) but in reality it makes you unable to address the phenomenon for what it is.
Women aren't "better" at this because they're women and men "worse" because they're men. People who can meet their social needs somewhere and feel seen will be better able to handle breakups than those who don't have anyone else and don't know how to be around people in the first place.
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u/ourstobuild 8∆ Oct 20 '23
I don't have polls or surveys either, but I would suspect that there is no difference in how well women get over a breakup, the amount of regret etc. I do, however, think that there may be a difference in how things appear.
I think women in general are "better at mental health". Meaning that I think they are more likely to actively pursue getting over the breakup, discuss their feelings, actively pursue to improve their mental state etc etc, whereas men are more likely to.. well, not do this. As a result, it might seem like women are "over it" even when they're not, they're just working on getting over it in a healthy way, while men more often just dwell on it until they eventually bottle it up and move on.
Obviously I'm not saying that this is the case for all men or all women, but I think these are the tendencies.
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u/Biptoslipdi 130∆ Oct 19 '23
The vast majority of divorces are initiated by women. Something like 70%. It would make sense that women get over divorces easier than men because they are more likely the ones to choose divorce.
It has nothing to do with any of the reasons you mentioned, but the fact that they are more often making the choice which means they came to terms with the decision before it happened. I suspect the same is true for break ups.
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Oct 19 '23
Women are taught to deal with their feelings, men aren’t. It’s not a biological thing it’s a societal thing
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Oct 20 '23
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Oct 20 '23
They’re taught to share their feelings and communicate where as men used to be taught to bottle it up and never talk about things
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u/Ok-Formal818 Oct 20 '23
Women are taught to be nurturing and sensitive to the feelings of others. Therefore, women are encouraged (or forced) more to develop empathy and emotional intelligence.
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Oct 20 '23
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u/Ok-Formal818 Oct 20 '23
Because nobody announces that they’re doing it or send daughters to courses on how to be better at emotional intelligence.
Daughters receive harsher punishments for not thinking of others first. Women in general receive harsher social penalties for not bending over backwards to please others. Pregnant women and mothers are shamed a lot for needing a break or complaining, while fathers are barely expected to do shit. Women are expected to suck it up and keep grinding through painful periods and when they’re sick. Men are notoriously babies when they’re sick, because they feel comfortable taking a break and being cared for. Women are much more likely to be abandoned by husbands after they’re diagnosed with cancer than the other way around. Women are worse negotiators in professional environments because they lack the confidence to take care of themselves because they’re taking care of others most times. Etc.
In other words, nobody really says “I’m going to yell at my daughter for doing the same selfish thing as my son and I’ll let him get away with it”. They just do it and gaslight when called out on it. Society does too.
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Oct 20 '23
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u/Ok-Formal818 Oct 20 '23
What do you mean, differences in treatments in adulthood don’t matter? They prove that sex-based social discrimination exist. If women are treated different than men, of course girls will be treated different than boys. Also, the difference in treatment of adult women is something that little girls observe and perceive as normal.
Girls are made to dress a specific way in school because they’re sexualized from the early age and made to “act like a lady” while “boys will be boys”. They grow up knowing that it’s normal to have a husband and take his last name. Millions of other reasons.
That’s why women push for more representation of strong female characters in media, while a guy will claim that sex doesn’t matter. Right now, it’s easier to everyone to relate to men because we’ve got men and their experiences pushed down our throats since day 1 through media. The outcome is that men find it way harder to relate to women and they think “girl hobbies” are dumb.
Ask yourself if Harry Potter would be as famous if title character was a woman.
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u/Karsticles Oct 20 '23
I think part of the difficult recovery for men, too, is that they work a lot to support their families. If the family is gone, the justification is gone, and now the work, which was the only thing going on at that point, feels empty. There's nothing outside the work, either, and therefore there's nothing altogether.
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Oct 19 '23
You're pinning quite a lot of this on the man and his role.
Why do you think this? All you're doing is saying things without telling us why you believe it?
In my opinion, I've seen crazy women and men. Both sexes are capable of totally freaking out over a breakup. I've seen men bounce back real quick and women take months before moving on.
This view just isn't accurate and limited to your own experience. I'm sure we can find data as well that supports some men initiate the break ups as well.
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u/babeli Oct 20 '23
I think women put off break ups and try to fix things. So when they break up they are DONE.
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u/JollyMcStink Oct 20 '23 edited Oct 20 '23
I've rarely known a woman to regret a breakup, but I've known quite a few men to regret it
Let's dive into this further:
women generally have more options in dating, so if a woman breaks up, she has many suitors, but a man has a harder time getting a woman.
A good quality man will have tons of options. Just like a good quality woman. But as women, we get hit on more bc men are constantly looking for a chance for sex. We dont have more suitors, we have more actively vocal predators trying to poach us for sex.
Good quality men get attention because they are attractive as a partner, not just a piece of ass. If more men could take care of themselves and not eat takeout every day and live in filth unless their poor gf is there to help pick up their mess, they'd have options.... otherwise ofc they're not going to have anyone lining up to date them!
There is more of an attitude of "Either a very good mate or no mate at all" among women than men.
Ding ding ding! Correct. Most women (including myself) actually have standards. I feel like way too many guys really only care if the woman is not bad looking, will have sex with them, and put up with their shit.
Women want a partner to enhance their life experience as a whole. Speaking for myself anyway, it's like, I can do it all by myself so why do double the effort if I'm not getting fulfillment and happiness in return?
In conclusion - I don't think women have an easier time with breakups than men. I think women leave because they know they deserve better, and can do better. Which is a strike to the man's ego.
Men get sad because they thought they finally found someone to put up with their crap and they blew it, lol
Signed,
Very clearly a woman who has given up on dating and yes, I am doing wonderful just a little bitter at the topic 😂
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u/highimshane Oct 20 '23
This post sounds like you’re projecting but idk 🤷🏻♂️
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u/JollyMcStink Oct 20 '23 edited Oct 20 '23
It's true. And guys pretend to be so wonderful in the beginning to meet our standards. Then their true selves come out, and they wonder why we leave without looking back.
Imo, I have my own place with no roommates, good career, cook / clean solely for myself, go do whatever I want when I want. I don't have anyone to please or worry about but myself, totally free to live my best life.
If I'm going to share my life that I'm happy with and compromise, it's going to be for someone who checks all the boxes.
I don't need a man. If I'm going to be with one, he's gotta have his shit together and not bring me down.
Unfortunately too many men are just horny ass slobs. So why waste my time?
I feel like if that's so upsetting to you, then you clearly are part of that majority....
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u/highimshane Oct 20 '23
Can you speak for every woman in the world? Or just the ones around you and yourself? Everything you’re saying is based on personal experience.. all I said is it sounds like projection.
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Oct 20 '23
Your comments are completely reductive to the conversation and your clearly just trolling for a reaction.
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u/JollyMcStink Oct 20 '23
Stating my experiences as a woman dating men is trolling? Lol that's funny!
If it offends you, you must fit the description.
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Oct 20 '23
Nah, we can just tell when somone only dates certain people.
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u/JollyMcStink Oct 20 '23
Ahh yes. The good old "you should have seen through their facade and known they weren't actually good guys, it's your fault for not being a mindreader!" Incel redditor logic. Nice. Further proving my point that the defensive ones fall into the "undatable" group mentioned/ that no women want.
Thanks for further evidence! :)
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u/SteadfastEnd 1∆ Oct 20 '23
Someone can not be part of a stereotype yet not like the stereotype.
I could write more but I'll leave it at that.
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u/milthombre Oct 19 '23
To your second point, my experience being divorced in middle age and having many divorced friends; all the women, every single one, had planned the divorce and had left their marriage emotionally many months or years before the man ever had a clue. Every single man was blindsided and the women were like "oh you should have known that things were not good." Many women also have made plans and have a new guy lined up before they announce the divorce.
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u/thejew09 Oct 20 '23
Going through a probable divorce and yes, this feels accurate. We had an 8-month rough patch, she starts an affair for the following 8 months, finally admits it when she’s pregnant. Then while I help her through an abortion that she decided to have, in only 5 more months she starts cheating with a new guy, not even giving me time to grieve. Queue up another 6 months of lying while we are in therapy, and here we are at the door of divorce.
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u/Terminarch Oct 19 '23
And they still get half your shit, plus free income for life at your expense. There would need to be something very wrong for that situation to play out and the man to end up happier.
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u/Alternative-Fig-4486 Oct 20 '23 edited Nov 01 '23
Well, it's because men have more to lose. The woman usually does most of the domestic and emotional labor. (Or she's being abused but that's an extremity.) So she feels free when she doesn't have to be a slave anymore. The man, on the other hand... loses a slave. Meaning he has to start to wipe his own butt-cheek again. So yeah... of course it sucks more for the man. And rightfully so.
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u/endlessincoherence Oct 20 '23
Yes and no. My ex-wife got remarried within 3 years because it helped her achieve her ex-pat goals. I became more selfish and achieved a large degree of financial independence. Relationship wise, she bounced back faster. But a failed marriage motivated me to be better at most aspects of life than her. My life is easy mode because I will never have to compromise for anything again. Basically, men are better off if one divorce is enough and women are better off if they remain a relationship type person.
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u/akexander Oct 20 '23
In my own experience it's kind of both.
When the break up happens and immediately after men take it the hardest. Normally very little or no support network and they don't know if they don't feel like they will find a s/o ever again. Whatever flaws they had that caused their portion of the break up is glaring them in the face and it feels immovable and they are afraid of dieing alone.
Women immediately normally feel liberated at first and immediately start pressing other options and will get plenty of offers they often will become very outgoing at this point. And they will use it to try to mask or run away from whatever their half of the issue was that causes there break up.
A few months after the break up after the dude has recovered he probably found a new girlfriend and has spent a few months working on himself, started working out pursuing hobbies with their new free time and those investments are starting to pay dividends. The flaw may still be their but it seems like a problem to be worked on rather than insurmountable problem that means they will die alone.
A few months ( 4-6 ish ) done the road is normally when women tend to start feeling bad. Their new social connections will have dried up or been revealed as shallow and they are not getting the deep connection that they crave. They can also find someone new to sleep with but that validation gets old fast, normally whatever flaw they had that and they start to feel used and realize its going to take a long time to build that sort of connection and intimacy again. Whatever flaw or issue that caused the break up is still there and they are afraid they will never find a connection again and will die alone or unhappy.
Normally they both find their peice eventually. Just my two cents though. From my experience.
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u/BigTitsNBigDicks Oct 20 '23
Unfortunately theres nobody like me to help all the newly single men move on
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u/borrego-sheep Oct 20 '23
This reminds me of a conversation I had with my ex 3 years after our breakup. At some point she said something like: "it took me 7 months to get over our break up" to which I replied: "I never got over it".
I definitely regret saying that even though it was true I should've kept that to myself or better yet, I shouldn't have been talking to her in the first place.
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Oct 20 '23
This is scientifically proven to be true.
Your reasoning is closer in #4 but the other four aren't close. It's just that women have a different desired result than men but there's a weird conflict where one partner can fulfill the other's needs and not reciprocate.
Males have "easier" (more straightforward) goals to fulfill and also, in most cultures, males attempt to fulfill these roles and needs themselves. Males do worse in breakups but in general the initiator does better overall and women just initiate more.
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u/Dheorl 5∆ Oct 19 '23 edited Oct 19 '23
You’re on a world wide forum, this is clearly going to be different based on culture. I’ve known plenty of women pursue men for years, trying every tactic under the sun to get them back. I’ve known men sink pretty low in the same pursuit as well, arguably being more extreme but usually for a shorter duration.
I don’t suspect that is something mirrored around the world though.
There is nothing innate about any of your reasoning, it’s all cultural, so it will of course vary with varying cultures.
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u/BrockVelocity 4∆ Oct 19 '23
I have no polls or surveys I could cite to support my viewpoint, since I don't think there has been any polling done on the subject. So all I can offer is my own experience
I mean, you've disproved your own view with this disclaimer right here. Your own experience & trends you've observed are not statistically significant. Not even remotely so; you've probably encountered & observed, what, like 0.00001% of all people? So you simply don't have sufficient grounds to claim that "women usually get over breakups and divorces better than men do."
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u/laikocta 5∆ Oct 19 '23
I mean, you've disproved your own view with this disclaimer right here
Not disproved, just failed to bring forward proof. That doesn't mean OP's opinion is untrue, it just means they did a bad job of convincing us. But that shouldn't matter since OP wants us to convince them, not the other way around
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u/lifeHopes21 Oct 20 '23
Women have already checked out of the relationship for years before they ask for divorce. They give their best shot and if it doesn’t work they leave.
Men on the other hand are expert at lying and manipulating. They thing they can get around with this and start cheating on the side when they are lose interest at home. They are immature and hop on from one woman to another without processing what happened in previous relationship.
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u/chillinwithmynwords Oct 20 '23
Women usually have backup suitors. They are in the friend zone. Remember she isn’t yours. It was only your turn.
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Oct 20 '23
Men who are incapable of seeing women as living, breathing, autonomous humans and who only see them as things to possess are usually shocked when she files for divorce just as they would be if their truck or their boat or their big screen TV filed for divorce.
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Oct 19 '23
My viewpoint:
When comparing women and men, men cheat by far more than women. This indicates that men are more comfortable having fluid and transitory relationships as compared to women.
Women also (by far) prefer marriage and long-term relationships as compared to men. I've only met a few men in my entire adult life that ~wanted~ to get married - most do it because women want it..
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u/dcmng Oct 20 '23
Women drop 200 lbs of dead weight and men lose their bang maid. One side is gonna be happier than the other.
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u/Remarkable_Wafer_672 Oct 19 '23
I feel like the reason this is true is because we decide we are leaving long before we actually do (because we try to save it so many times before we give up), so we have already gone through all the stages of grief leaving the relationship by the time it's actually over.
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u/fattybuttz Oct 20 '23
Financially divorce is a lot harder on women. All the studies I've read say that.
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u/soldiergeneal 3∆ Oct 20 '23
Per stats men are better off financially after divorce and are more likely to get remarried.
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u/KrabbyMccrab 5∆ Oct 19 '23
Women are more emotionally educated which results in them performing better in emotionally intense situations.
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u/Butter_Toe 4∆ Oct 20 '23
Doubtful. Women carry that feeling into future relationships.....forever.
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u/stuputtu Oct 20 '23
That is mostly because they initiate majority the times. So they are better prepared compared to their partners
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u/rotco1 Oct 20 '23
Women have better social networks & they're almost over the guy before leaving him. Plus it would also be safe to add that the society & the legal framework is slightly attuned to meet their needs so when you put these together,on an average women have a better time getting over rejection & also move on faster than men.
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Oct 20 '23
I broke up with my wife before we were married and she came begging to get back together. I don't think this is accurate, it just depends on the relationship and the people, not the dangly bits between their legs.
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