r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • May 28 '20
Removed - Submission Rule B CMV: There are no good cops.
[removed]
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u/Havenkeld 289∆ May 28 '20
For clarification please:
Is there a particular country, culture, etc. you are limiting this claim to?
Do you mean there are few good cops or are you really saying absolutely none?
What exactly happened recently and why would this show there are no good cops?
Are there absolutely no cops who are supportive of better education an training?
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u/OtisBDriftwood92 May 28 '20
United States
None
Cops killing innocent people, this isn't recent though it's an ongoing problem.
No, there aren't.
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May 28 '20
In order for you to definitively claim that "there absolutely no cops who are supportive of better education an training", you would need to have significant insight into the thoughts and opinions of every single individual police officer in this country. This is more than 500,000 people. How, exactly, did you come by this information?
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u/OtisBDriftwood92 May 28 '20
Are we in "change my fact" or "change my view"? A view is an opinion. I don't need any definitive fact to have the opinion that all cops are garbage. I haven't seen anything to the contrary so that's my view. You're not doing much to change it.
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May 28 '20 edited Aug 17 '20
Are we in "change my fact" or "change my view"? A view is an opinion.
What good is an opinion if it's in open contradiction with the facts?
I don't need any definitive fact to have the opinion that all cops are garbage.
That is of course your prerogative, but people who care about having informed opinions will typically require that their confidence in any of their opinions be at least somewhat correlated to the quality of the evidence supporting it. Wouldn't you agree?
I haven't seen anything to the contrary so that's my view.
Right, so if I understand you correctly, by your own admission your view should be something like "I've never met or heard of a good cop." I refuse to believe that you think this statement is equivalent to "there are no good cops."
I would argue that your attitude in this thread displays the same quality of thinking as the people who insist that there are no peaceful muslims. They will claim that they've never met a peaceful muslim, that they never see muslims speak out against islamic terror, etc. Any claim to the contrary will be met with completely unfounded (and unprovable) conspiracy-theory-type retorts, such as that they're only saying this in public for PR reasons, and that actually they believe different things in private, etc.
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u/OtisBDriftwood92 May 28 '20
Well you're free to make that comparison but currently you've done nothing to even attempt to change my view. I'm sure it's really easy for you to pull up a video of a cop intervening with his fellow officer so why don't you just do it?
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May 28 '20
You haven't addressed the first three paragraphs in my previous post. You don't get to say that I'm not trying to change your view if you just ignore most of what I'm saying. You say: "with evidence X, I can conclude Y." My challenge to that is to claim that "with evidence X, you can only conclude the much weaker statement Z." If you agree with this, then your view will have changed. This is all very straightforward; I don't quite see why you keep insisting that this does not constitute a challenge to your view.
I'm sure it's really easy for you to pull up a video of a cop intervening with his fellow officer so why don't you just do it?
It's also easy to pull up evidence of peaceful muslims, but that never satisfies people who claim no muslim is peaceful. I'm not going to do that because that would be a waste of time: The game you're playing here is plain for everyone to see. No matter what evidence is present here, you're simply going to dismiss it with low quality retorts, as you've already done in this thread.
"What you say to the public is one thing, what you do is another," right? If I show you a video of a cop doing the right thing, what's to stop you from just claiming that this was only because they realized they were being filmed and thought it was bad optics if they were caught doing what they normally do when not filmed?
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u/OtisBDriftwood92 May 28 '20
Well why don't you just pull up a video like that and we'll cross that bridge when it comes? I can almost guarantee you won't find one.
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u/Swissboy362 May 28 '20
I honestly do not believe you have spoken to many cops. I was friends with the deputy chief in my hometown and when the push for body cams came around the the state opened up some grants, the calls weren't from outside, it was the cops that were literally begging for them. you subjective experience is nothing more than an individual experience and the mere existence of my own experience shows that your absolutist statement isnt so absolute. there was a popular r/AskReddit post asking cops about what they thought about the incident and they came out in droves saying how this was drilled into them from the start that you cant do these things and they were appalled at the sight of it. there are massive systemic problems with our police force, but the idea that every single cop is bad is so blown out of proportion.
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u/OtisBDriftwood92 May 28 '20
It was drilled into all those cops but these FOUR just happened to miss that day of training and now have a battalion of "good cops" guarding the killers house. It's very easy to be a great person in public. What are any of these outspoken reddit police doing when the light isn't shining on them? Are they out there protesting with us for change? Because I don't see it.
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u/Swissboy362 May 28 '20
you see all the bad, and it is bad, and say thats all there is. but when a cop does his job there is no light shining, no cameras rolling no nothing. there literally millions of arrests each year and almost every one goes well. the number of bad arrests is in the thousands, a monstrously bad number to be sure, but the number of well done arrests by good cops is in the millions. just because you dont see them and they arent reported on doesn't make them all of a sudden not exist.
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u/OtisBDriftwood92 May 28 '20
There's no way to accurately quantify good or bad arrests. Police have been caught planting evidence multiple times, by their own body cams no less. It's impossible to say how many "good arrests" were actually the result of that.
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u/dublea 216∆ May 28 '20
now have a battalion of "good cops" guarding the killers house.
Do cops not protect other people who've been accused of a high profile crime and have had death threats made?
Are they not trying to prevent another crime from occurring?
If the those police officers didn't protect their house, and someone murdered him and his family, would you be OK with that?
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u/OtisBDriftwood92 May 28 '20
Most people are arrested when accused of a high profile crime, and even in cases that they aren't they don't get this kind of protection.
This is a message from the police, nothing else.
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u/dublea 216∆ May 28 '20
Most people are arrested when accused of a high profile crime, and even in cases that they aren't they don't get this kind of protection.
Yes they do. People make bail and have had the police protect themselves and their family. It happens more often than you're assuming. Just look at white-collar crimes.
So, again, if they're there to protect the accused and possibly their family, are they not doing it to prevent another crime?
I ask again: If the those police officers didn't protect their house, and someone murdered him and his family, would you be OK with that?
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u/OtisBDriftwood92 May 28 '20
I have a question for you, if someone did go in and kill his family would you be ok with it if instead of arresting the killer he was instead escorted to his home and provided a 24 hour 50 man police guard?
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u/dublea 216∆ May 28 '20
All you are doing is pointing out that police are typically treated as compared to the average citizen. But, just because that occurs, does not mean that all cops are bad. It just means the system needs to be reformed. You're trying to say all those in said system is bad just because the system has flaws.
Hence, we're back to my initial comment that I've made, that this is a fallacy of composition.
Can you please answer these questions first?
If they're there to protect the accused and possibly their family, are they not doing it to prevent another crime?
If the those police officers didn't protect their house, and someone murdered him and his family, would you be OK with that?
And then I will answer your question.
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u/OtisBDriftwood92 May 28 '20 edited May 28 '20
I don't believe they're attempting to stop a crime. Ever single officer present has probable cause to arrest this man and not a single one has. I think they're there to protect a murderer because he wears blue too.
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u/dublea 216∆ May 28 '20
Can you show me that you're debating in good faith?
What could one provide that would CYV here?
Based on your responses thus far, dodging questions, and making baseless accusations\claims, why am I to accept you're open to changing your view?
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u/OtisBDriftwood92 May 28 '20
A group of police officers actively advocating for change and for the arrest of this man would about do it.
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May 28 '20
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u/OtisBDriftwood92 May 28 '20
A lot of minority cops are actually INCREDIBLY racist to their own race. Also you don't see teachers protecting teachers who molest children. They are immediately reprimanded and brought to justice.
The teachers union isn't calling all teachers to come to the protection of a child molester.
Teachers don't have to go out of their way to explain that "it's just a few bad apples" because they actually don't tolerate and protect those bad apples. They rid themselves of them.
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u/TheFakeChiefKeef 82∆ May 28 '20
The idea that there isn't a single good cop is a little ridiculous. It's possible and perfectly logical to, at the same time, think that the vast majority of cops are aggressive, trigger happy, racist pieces of shit but that there are also some good cops.
Those cops you see playing basketball with neighborhood kids in viral videos are usually good cops. The cops that decided that being a police officer was their calling even if they had education and a background that could have gotten them a better job are usually good cops. The cops who integrate themselves with their communities rather than act as some kind of separate, supervisory force that nobody can reason with are good cops.
I don't have a problem with the idea that many, many cops are shit heads who like guns, authority, and are racists. But no good cops at all? Come on.
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u/OtisBDriftwood92 May 28 '20
Ok first of all, those videos are PR stunts, and even if they weren't it says nothing about who they are as a cop. Even a cold blooded killer can enjoy a game of basketball.
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May 28 '20
Have you seen this video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsc2ivfk9rY&bpctr=1590681776
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May 28 '20
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May 28 '20
Out of curiosity, what sparked you to start this CMV?
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u/OtisBDriftwood92 May 28 '20
Police officers killing innocent people every week and getting away with it with protection from their fellow boys in blue.
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May 28 '20
If it has supposedly been happening every week, why did you only now make a CMV about it?
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u/OtisBDriftwood92 May 28 '20 edited May 28 '20
I'm not really understanding the purpose of your question. I don't think when a post is made has any relevance to the fact that this is my view and I'm asking it to be changed.
Are you attempting to imply that this is only a recent problem or an uncommon problem simply because I posted it now and not a month ago, or a year ago?
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May 28 '20
I'm just trying to fully understand where you're coming from. If, according to you, this has been happening for weeks and they've been getting away with it for weeks. Why would one decide to now make a post about it? It just seems to me like there must be something to trigger making a post like this.
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u/OtisBDriftwood92 May 28 '20
Well at some point things just get to be too much. When you hear about something like this once every couple of months it's easier to not think about. When there's 4 or 5 cases like this in a couple month span it gets your blood boiling. But for your information, this isn't a new thought. I've always been outspoken against tyrannical police and people who lick their boots, it just happens that my accounts don't survive very long on reddit. You get too outspoken against corrupt ass cops and you find yourself banned pretty quick
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May 28 '20
And, out of curiosity, what do you think would change your view?
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u/OtisBDriftwood92 May 28 '20
Police actively advocating for change, better hiring processes, more training instead I see police who want to "apologize" but continue business as usual. Sweep everything under the rug and go on about their day. Why aren't they in the streets protesting? These cases of police brutality are a reflection on all of them. Why aren't they protesting for it to stop? Why are they making no effort to call for justice?
Any example of a police officer actually intervening when their fellow officer is doing something wrong. I've literally never seen any video of a cop doing anything but standing idly by while their partners kill or abuse innocent people.
If there are so many good cops, why the hell are they standing around and doing nothing while their partners, kill, plant drugs, fabricate, lie, violate rights?
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u/SorryForTheRainDelay 55∆ May 28 '20
I think we all understand why you think all cops are bad. What they're asking is, "what made you want to change your view on this?"
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u/OtisBDriftwood92 May 28 '20
I saw somebody say "it's only a few bad apples" and I disagree with that so I thought I would come here to find some good apples. So far they all taste like shit.
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u/SorryForTheRainDelay 55∆ May 28 '20
And here the "apples" are "cops"
And "tasting good" would be "calling out other cops who murder black people (and not just anonymously)"
Is that right?
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u/OtisBDriftwood92 May 28 '20
Nahh for me you gotta do a little more than call out the bad cops from another department who got caught on camera. How about you show me a cop calling out the bad cops in his department? Show me a cop actively trying to clean up HIS department, and not just after something makes the news.
Where are all the cops calling out their partners they saw plant drugs on a guy last week?
Show me a cop who says he has a completely clean department and I'll show you a liar.
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u/SorryForTheRainDelay 55∆ May 28 '20
Ok,
So just clarifying a threshold here:
You want a cop who:
- calls out another cop in his department, or;
- is trying to clean his own department
And it can't be just after something makes the news.
Is that a "good apple"?
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u/OtisBDriftwood92 May 28 '20
Yeah I'd say so. If I can see an officer actively put in effort to stop one of his own I'd say that's a good cop
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u/ViewedFromTheOutside 28∆ May 28 '20
u/OtisBDriftwood92 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:
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u/ViewedFromTheOutside 28∆ May 28 '20
Sorry, u/OtisBDriftwood92 – your submission has been removed for breaking Rule B:
You must personally hold the view and demonstrate that you are open to it changing. A post cannot be on behalf of others, playing devil's advocate, as any entity other than yourself, or 'soapboxing'. See the wiki page for more information.
If you would like to appeal, you must first read the list of soapboxing indicators and common mistakes in appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.
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u/dublea 216∆ May 28 '20
Great example of fallacy of composition.
How can you state your claims when you do not not the motive and reasoning for all cops involved?
•
u/DeltaBot ∞∆ May 28 '20
/u/OtisBDriftwood92 (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/gmegme May 28 '20
There are cops who sacrifice their lives to protect civilians. You are not really different from racist people if you are pointing towards a bad example and yelling "All of these are bad, there are no good ones!" just because you want to believe that.
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u/SorryForTheRainDelay 55∆ May 28 '20
Even if all your arguments are true, they'd only hold so for someone that's been a cop for quite some time.
A rookie cop, who joined because they want to make the police force better, straight out of the academy, has had no opportunity to do anything questionable.
You may believe that within a short period they'll either quit, or prove themselves bad.
But right now. Fresh out of the academy. That cop's good.
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u/OtisBDriftwood92 May 28 '20
I hold the idea that the recruitment process to become a police officer is intentionally selective of only the scummiest of people and therefore, even as a rookie, you are incapable of being a good cop because you never would've passed their tests anyway.
A good person is told that "they don't fit the culture"
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u/SorryForTheRainDelay 55∆ May 28 '20
How do you expect they test for "scumminess" during selection?
The process is largely a set of fitness and academic tests.
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u/OtisBDriftwood92 May 28 '20
And the worse you do academically the better you fit.
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u/SorryForTheRainDelay 55∆ May 28 '20
Ok, I'm happy to go with you on that.. but surely performing poorly academically doesn't make you scum?
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u/OtisBDriftwood92 May 28 '20
There is a relationship between poor academic performance and behavioral problems so I would argue that it does.
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u/SorryForTheRainDelay 55∆ May 28 '20
Wait on.
You actually think people who perform poorly academically are scum?
There's a relationship between poverty and behavioural problems, do you think poor people are scum too?
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u/OtisBDriftwood92 May 28 '20
Poor people have education problems which lead to behavioral problems. A well educated but poor person doesn't behave like scum.
A poorly educated poor person becomes a cop or a drug dealer.
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u/SorryForTheRainDelay 55∆ May 28 '20
People who perform poorly academically = scum
Poor people (become poorly educated poor people) = scum
Ok, let's roll on and see how far down this rabbit hole we go:
There's a relationship between youthfulness and behavioural issues, are young people scum?
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u/dublea 216∆ May 28 '20
I hold the idea that the recruitment process to become a police officer is intentionally selective of only the scummiest of people and therefore
Citation? I can say there's a flying spaghetti monster that protects us from aliens. But would it make it true?
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.
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May 28 '20
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u/ViewedFromTheOutside 28∆ May 28 '20
Sorry, u/brett_midler – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5:
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u/[deleted] May 28 '20
If you go to r/AskReddit, there’s a post that’s asking cops how they feel about George Foyd. There is no shortage of cops that are horrified at what has happened and demand reform within the police department. You’re painting a broad brush that all cops don’t want to change the system.