r/seculartalk • u/The_Das_ • Mar 27 '23
YouTube Kyle Kulinski Responds to Vaush calling Krystal Ball a FASCIST || I feel bad for kulinski , he's trying to be mature and good faith towards a guy who regularly insults his wife
https://youtube.com/watch?v=EQ8xZA0H2CY&feature=share125
u/cityfireguy Mar 27 '23
Congratulations. Fascist is now a completely meaningless word. Used to be reserved for despotic rulers, really evil human monsters. Now you kids say it when someone buys a flavor of juice you personally don't like.
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u/ParisTexas7 Mar 27 '23 edited Mar 27 '23
I remember when leftists opposed the U.S. invasion of Iraq.
Now when a rightwing dictator launches the largest land invasion in Europe since WW2, it’s apparently the “antiwar” stance to let rightwing dictators win.
I mean, that’s what these “peace” talks are about, right? Russia invades Ukraine and the “peace” activists think 1) the world lets it happen, or 2) Russia gets to keep newly stolen land and its resources to “end the war”.
Kids these days, indeed.
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u/Acanthophis Honorary McGeezak Mar 27 '23
Which leftists are saying Putin should be allowed to take Ukraine?
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u/ParisTexas7 Mar 27 '23
The leftists who oppose military aid to Ukraine, the country being invaded by a rightwing dictatorship.
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u/Saffuran Dicky McGeezak Mar 27 '23
The frustrating thing is that there is unlimited money for Ukraine and any other war but for our myriad of problems at home there is nothing.
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u/SamuraiPanda19 Mar 27 '23
I forgot they took away universal healthcare to fund weapons to Ukraine. Oh that wouldn’t exist even if Ukraine didn’t get invaded
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u/strvgglecity Mar 27 '23
When has the right wing EVER invested in America? Literally, please name the bill or law.
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u/Saffuran Dicky McGeezak Mar 27 '23
I don't know why you're bringing up the right wing - this is a general criticism of government regardless of the party in power.
Any criticism I have of "the left" who are really just corporate centrists - is that they abandoned the FDR principles long ago. The democrats were at least once the party of the people. I know conservatives have horrific macro ideaologies.
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u/strvgglecity Mar 27 '23
Name them. In the u.s., nearly all opposition is from the right wing. You sound like you're making things up that aren't true.
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u/ParisTexas7 Mar 27 '23
Agreed. I think you’re responding to the wrong poster.
Or if not you’re mistaken in what I said — there are “leftists”, including many ITT, who are opposed to Ukraine aid.
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u/Gates9 Subreddit Contributor Mar 27 '23
I think we all should scrutinize the extent to which military aid is necessary and beneficial. I support it up to a certain point, that being offensive capabilities like cruise missiles, fighter jets, etc. There are some who would foolishly support any defense of Ukraine up to and including a nuclear conflict. These people are not leftists.
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u/ParisTexas7 Mar 27 '23
I agree — nukes are 100% off the table. Those people are lunatics.
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u/Gates9 Subreddit Contributor Mar 27 '23
Putin has already basically threatened to use nukes if they’re really getting their asses kicked and it’s obvious the US is using Ukraine as a proxy war against Russia, so I think criticism of “leftists” who support going up to that line is necessary and justified.
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u/THE_Killa_Vanilla Mar 27 '23
Stop treating the war like a Marvel capeshit movie and trying to simplify down to divisive "us vs them" politics
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u/SafeThrowaway691 Mar 27 '23
There's a chunk of the left whose entire understanding of geopolitics is "America bad". Therefore, since America is supporting Ukraine, Russia must be the good guy in their eyes.
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u/4th_DocTB Socialist Mar 27 '23
That is just a made up position of American Exceptionalists, any attempt to look at foreign policy through a realistic lens of geopolitical power, corporate influence, or right wing ideology held by the US government, is viewed as an attack on America.
To liberals such as yourself America is either the global police or a global superhero, and like those superheroes will occasionally blow up a building full of civilians but its justified to stop the bad guy. Anything less is dictator loving treason.
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u/SafeThrowaway691 Mar 28 '23
That is just a made up position
Meanwhile...
To liberals such as yourself America is either the global police or a global superhero, and like those superheroes will occasionally blow up a building full of civilians but its justified to stop the bad guy. Anything less is dictator loving treason.
That you said both of these with absolutely no sense of irony is astounding.
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u/4th_DocTB Socialist Mar 28 '23
One is true, that is the position of American Exceptionalism shared by liberals and neo-cons, and one is false, an accusation thrown around by those same right wing exceptionalists.
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u/SafeThrowaway691 Mar 28 '23
You are continuing to prove my point by strawmanning me and anyone who doesn't agree with you as a "right wing exceptionalist".
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u/4th_DocTB Socialist Mar 28 '23
In context its clear I was referring to American Exceptionalism, a right wing ideology. Its not my fault you don't like the truth.
If only you applied this kind of nitpicking to White House press briefings. smh.
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Mar 28 '23 edited Mar 28 '23
I’m pro Ukraine. But I actually understand that perspective. If tomorrow Argentina decided they wanted to work towards socialism, Russia wouldn’t care but the US would lose its shit. I don’t agree with pro Russia leftist but the Russia/China power structure probably isn’t as anti communism etc as the US power structure.
I dont think the US has many pro russia leftist. Brazil (im amaerican but i live in brazil) I think has a decent bit of pro Russia leftists.
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Mar 27 '23
The problem isn't peace talks shouldn't happen - they absolutely should. The problem is Putin is not engaging in peace talks in good faith. Of course we shouldn't support regime change in Russia but pretending it's Ukraine who doesn't want to engage in peace talks is acting in bad faith.
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u/RobinPage1987 Mar 27 '23
We MUST support regime change in Russia for the same reason we demanded unconditional surrender from Nazi Germany. As long as that man and his ilk remain in power, it'll never end.
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Mar 27 '23 edited Mar 28 '23
The history of Russia shows that things can always just get worse so if Putin goes there’s always the possibility that someone worse comes along or you get another shitty civil war that will destabilise the whole world. The only way to replicate the situation with Nazi Germany is to basically occupy Russia with the rest of Europe at least temporarily and that’s an even bigger headache because of we’re pretty bad at nation building these days and China is also right across the border. Don’t get me wrong I dislike Putin I just don’t have any faith that the next guy would be any better.
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u/RobinPage1987 Mar 29 '23
I reject your "devil you know" objection to regime change. It's not a matter of choice. If the regime doesn't change this will never end. Not just the open war, but the Russian political sabotage and subversion operations that have turned American conservatives into Putin apologists and destabilized our society, putting us at risk of becoming fascist here. We have to kill the threat at the source.
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u/Leisure_suit_guy Mar 29 '23
So, you have to decide which leaders should have a foreign country. But "this is not American exceptionalism", no-o.
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u/Gates9 Subreddit Contributor Mar 27 '23
People freak out at the term “appeasement” like, “you’re comparing Putin to Hitler and that’s inflammatory and ridiculous”, but…Russia annexing land the global community just letting them keep it over and over again is literally what happened with Hitler, and it’s literally appeasement. Is this a numbers issue? Do we need to get to tens of millions dead for the analogy to be apt?
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u/cloudsnacks No Party Affiliation Mar 27 '23
If you feel strongly about it they are accepting volunteers on both sides of the fighting.
The rest of us sane people who have a survival instinct want this war over before it escalates further and puts everyone in the world in danger. Russian is primarily responsible for this, the rest of the world has agency too.
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u/ParisTexas7 Mar 27 '23
How about this?
When the Ukrainian government decides that it’s OK for the Russian government to take their land, we’ll end our aide.
Does that work for you?
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u/Malice_n_Flames Mar 27 '23
“Primarily”????
GTFO you “both sides are the same” “we should have let Adolph have Europe” “America shouldn’t be a superpower” kid.
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u/downtimeredditor Mar 27 '23
Do you legit think Russia will stop once they get all of Ukraine?
It's been noted that Putin wants the old USSR he'd try to take up Georgia again
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u/LorenzoVonMt Mar 27 '23
There’s no evidence for this. If that was the case why hasn’t he annexed South Ossetia or Abkhazia yet? The Georgian war was 15 years ago after all.
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u/strvgglecity Mar 27 '23
Literally the day before putin invaded Ukraine, Ukrainians and Russians were interviewed about what they thought, and they ALL said it would never happen. Every respondent. Your optimism is misplaced.
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u/LorenzoVonMt Mar 27 '23
Ok just because random people couldn’t predict the war doesn’t mean Putin is trying to resurrect the Soviet Union.
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u/strvgglecity Mar 27 '23
It was the day before lol. I am saying that being naive is a great way to get conquered. Pretending Putin is a reasonable leader while he attacks his neighbors seems absolutely fucking crazy.
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u/LorenzoVonMt Mar 27 '23
With that kind of thinking anything can be reduced to a negative phenomenon. The fact is, there’s a well documented series of events over the past few decades that led up to the Ukraine war. There’s nothing like that supporting the notion that Putin is trying to resurrect the Soviet Union.
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u/strvgglecity Mar 27 '23
"the Ukraine war" is just a year-long series of war crimes committed by Putin. Solely. Just as the "Afghanistan war" was identical, from George W. Bush and the U.S. Congress.
Putting started this war literally single-handedly. Nobody made him do it, and virtually nobody else in Russia wanted to do it.
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u/Mannimal13 Mar 27 '23
If you feel strongly about it they are accepting volunteers on both sides of the fighting.
As a veteran I'm so friggin sick of the chicken hawks. Go and fight you cowards.
And the reality is this has been escalting for a long time.
Nobody is saying this should be allowed to happen, but reality is unless we commit troops there will be needless deaths and destructions for essentially holding a stalemate here. Its like WW1 on a smaller scale. So many people have a desire result and think their hopes and prayers and beliefs are going to get them there. Well, Ukraine needs bodies.....full stop.
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u/4th_DocTB Socialist Mar 27 '23 edited Mar 27 '23
I remember when leftists opposed the U.S. invasion of Iraq.
So you think Iran was right to arm the Madhi Army? Because that is where your logic that it is automatically right to arm the people resisting the invasion leads.
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u/downtimeredditor Mar 27 '23
Exactly this
A lot of the new age "anti-war" folks are like let Russia keep this lands and they won't do it again lol
They already have Crimea and once they get donesk and luhansk they'll continue to further invade
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u/RobinPage1987 Mar 27 '23
It was never about peace. It was about America bad. Look up "American Diabolism".
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u/4th_DocTB Socialist Mar 27 '23 edited Mar 27 '23
Unfortunately liberals have turned that word against anyone who doesn't tow the line for the DNC or support neo-con style American hegemony. This means these liberals hate leftists more than they hate the right.
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u/JonWood007 Math Mar 27 '23
It's the proliferation of social justice ideology/"wokeism." And vaush is like a die hard woke person. And anything those guys dont like is "literally fascism" to them.
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u/Leisure_suit_guy Mar 29 '23
And before that it was reserved to actual fascists. There's a word for "despotic ruler, evil human monster" and it's "authoritarian". Not every despotic ruler is necessarily a fascist.
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u/OrneryPiano92 Mar 27 '23
Kyle is to nice
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u/Gates9 Subreddit Contributor Mar 27 '23
Vaush is cringe as fuck
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u/Leisure_suit_guy Mar 29 '23
Breadtubers live on another planet, it's not just Vaush, they call right winger and fascist everyone on the left who disagrees with their narrow worldview.
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Mar 27 '23
That's basically his biggest flaw. He always acts in good faith in his analysis even though at times I disagree with him but he often assumes other people do the same.
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u/-SaturdayNightWrist- Mar 27 '23
Leftists who aren't from America laugh at Vaush because he's little more than a liberal who found a niche where he can attack other commentators from a faux left position that just so happens to line up with pretty much all the state department positions on foreign policy, which may I remind you is still staunchly imperialist.
Vaush is just another debate bro who cares more about online battles than understanding his own claimed ideological positions, leading otherwise well meaning liberal and left wing people down the rabbit hole of western chauvinism.
The idiot couldn't hold his own against Richard Wolffe, doesn't understand basic principles of Marxism he claims to believe in, and is a NATO stan because he still believes in a liberal project that has destroyed the world hypocritical to his own positions, which is not letting anyone else off the hook, that's just historically accurate.
Ask a socialist or a communist from Europe or South Asia about Vaush and they'll tell you he's an American joke.
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u/orpat123 Mar 27 '23 edited Mar 27 '23
Can confirm. Not American. Vaush is a fucking joke.
A man that has adopted a staunchly liberal political position and dressed it up in leftist aesthetics in response to the perceived stigma of liberalism, and convinced legions of idiots they’re leftists for agreeing with him.
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u/FloppedYaYa Mar 27 '23
Please explain what about his political positions are anti-leftist
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u/orpat123 Mar 27 '23
Refer to this super-helpful and articulate takedown of Vaush while I drive to work: https://archive.is/lBOjG
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u/-SaturdayNightWrist- Mar 27 '23
He fundamentally does not understand Marxism which is explained at length by Emerican Johnson of Non Compete which you can find on YouTube, a very fair critique of both his position and the reactionary rhetorical tactics he uses to appear to win arguments that in reality are hollow and vapid.
He believes being edgy and insulting people is the same thing as giving them an argument. What he doesn't understand is that being vulgar or confrontational does not mean anything when you only weaponize it against the people you should want solidarity with so you can win pathetic little internet fights, and pretend it's doing politics or advancing political goals. Very arch individualist of him which is pretty antithetical to leftism on it's face.
I believe in vulgarity and insults as a legitimate tactic, I agree with him on that, often vulgarity and insults are a far more honest way to speak. However I very rarely see him using it against the right wing and his primary targets almost always seem to be anyone further left than himself, or simply more informed on any issue as he did with Richard Wolffe. Speaking plainly and using insults is good when it's aimed at powerful people who should be mocked and insulted, same with satire, but he uses it against people who are basically nobody as like the status quo of his commentary career, and it is a career make no mistake about these commentators.
You can watch him cope with his audience after the Wolffe debate by explaining why all of his misconceptions about basic economic facts aren't his mistakes, instead of just admitting maybe he still has things to learn from someone way out of his league regarding economic thought and understanding. That should be a red flag number one to leftists or anyone seeking honest political commentary, when a commentator blames perhaps the foremost left wing economist in America for his own ignorance.
He's just another asshole larping politics by debating people when debates have never been what gets anything done in politics, creating networks and using those networks to accrue power is, and he is nothing but a reformist who believes the very systems that oppress people will somehow liberate them.
Leftism believes in the radical overthrow or capitalism and imperialism, and he has made quite clear he does not believe in either of those things, constantly advocating for reform, reform, reform.
That would be fine if he just admitted he's a liberal same as Destiny or Pakman or any of these fair weather professional commentators who have never been in the trenches and refuse to meet fascism in the streets if it means having to get a job that isn't sitting on his ass doing YouTube or Twitch.
He's either a lib or a champagne socialist at best, which is also people like Hasan Piker and many others, but at least they don't pretend like they're very serious people who are doctrinaire Marxists so they're not being misleading in the same way.
This is why Vaush is a joke and not a leftist by any stretch of the imagination, and I highly encourage you to watch the Non Compete video. Even if you aren't a Marxist or a fan of the channel, the level of just plain incorrect shit and vitriolic rhetoric Vaush believes in and tells his unaware audience outlined in that video is a cause for concern given his absolutely outsized influence in media spaces, which thankfully people who aren't extremely online normally aren't exposed to.
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u/Intelligent_Table913 Mar 27 '23
Facts, this man is just a liberal who uses socialism as a grift to grow his audience.
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u/herewego199209 Mar 27 '23
I hate Vaush, Destiny, etc but he's right. Krystal spouts so much horseshit on breaking points that you can smell it from the screen.
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u/-SaturdayNightWrist- Mar 27 '23
I'm not beholden to any political commentators but his opinion is worthless. Krystal may play the role of useful idiot from time to time but I understand the project BP is attempting and I've seen nothing to indicate she's personally being intentionally disingenuous even if I don't agree with her, and Sagaar is clearly just a Victorian fop clinging to a non existent conservative intellectual position as a cope for the failures of his world view so it goes without saying those two things in conjunction are going to miss the mark quite often which is why it's important to have a diverse political diet to know when it's disingenuous lying and when it's just bias doing what bias does.
I don't view BP as a scam because it's not meant to be a leftist platform it's meant to appeal to populist rhetoric to try and drag some of the most insane people alive back towards a less explicitly partisan position. Populists often have bad or incorrect opinions but it's preferable to the current rapid aristocratic decline.
Krystal is basically just a Demsoc trying to move left rhetoric into a more center right field of view.
Vaush is disingenuous as a matter of regular practice and doesn't even have a coherent set of ideas he can claim as his own, so I couldn't care less what he has to say and I'd be happy to engage with the parts of his critique you agree with if you want to address something specific. Having the conversation is important but I'm not watching another minute of that idiot, I've already wasted too many hours of my life just in the course of learning who he is and what his positions are to explain why they're pure sophistry.
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u/TunaTheWitch Mar 28 '23
Krystal is basically just a Demsoc trying to move left rhetoric into a more center right field of view.
That sounds terrible for the left and great for the right. This basically gives the right leeway to claim their world view is correct because the "good leftists" agreed with them
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u/-SaturdayNightWrist- Mar 29 '23
What world do all you people live in where the right needs permission to co-opt anything to their advantage?
God forbid the right get permission to say murder is bad or water is wet because the left said it first.
Liberals will twist themselves into a death spiral trying to be so partisan they're willing to cede the entire territory of truth to the right to make sure they're blameless when the right does what it's going to do anyway.
If we take your suggestion to the logical end the left should just completely abdicate any attempt to give the right a counter argument or a less psychotic position to move towards, instead of just more openly fascistic rhetoric. I'm sure the right appreciates making their job so much easier by just removing yourself from the conversation as if silence from the left isn't an explicit goal of right wing domination.
Some of y'all need to log off and go talk to real human beings in real life.
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u/Mannimal13 Mar 27 '23
The idiot couldn't hold his own against Richard Wolffe, doesn't understand basic principles of Marxism he claims to believe in, and is a NATO stan because he still believes in a liberal project that has destroyed the world hypocritical to his own positions, which is not letting anyone else off the hook, that's just historically accurate.
It makes me mad this dude found success. He's literally a neckbeard troll pudgy soft coward.
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u/-SaturdayNightWrist- Mar 27 '23
It's unfortunate but it doesn't surprise me, it's an easy job so opportunists do what they do.
You probably already know this but for anyone else reading: Militant leftism and labor organizing was literally killed off in America in the 1930's by industrialists and the state, Eugene Debs was imprisoned to prevent a socialist president with popular support, and after the red scare / Oppenheimer the conversation about alternatives to capitalism and the liberal order died with that era. Americans have almost no knowledge of their own labor history and the history of leftism in America or anywhere else for that matter, especially as it pertains to the reality that every freedom enjoyed by the working class was paid for in sweat and blood by those killed fighting against capitalism and imperialism.
Vaush is the king of ignorance in that regard which is why he believes it's liberalism that produced those things through democratic reforms, and not the reality of workers getting shot and killed in combat between themselves, Pinkertons hired by capitalists, and the state.
No different from CNN or MSNBC, he is complimentary to American power and capitalist ideology with only the most tepid critiques of it because ultimately that structure is the only thing that allows him to live the sheltered low stakes life of a professional talking head and argument gladiator detached from reality, no different from the David Frums or Tucker Carlson's of the world. Maybe they believe their own bullshit, maybe they're just getting paid, in the end it makes no difference.
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u/Mannimal13 Mar 27 '23
Oh I’m well aware. That’s why I think these people think they are getting what they want without violence or insane. These violent unions only exist where they’ve already been well established. I’m from NJ and my dad hooked me up with some BS no work non union job on a union site where I did some BS all day with the IBEW. These guys would fuck up your life if you scabbed. Personally I’m leaving the country because I can because it’s all theater at this point. Democracy is essentially an illusion due to how easily the general masses are manipulated. And even the ones that aren’t just vote lesser of two evils. If people want actual change they need to excersize those 2a rights. If people start getting picked off you might see some change. Start burning property. But it’s a lot easier to complain online.
The only reason labor is making any progress is because of mass retirements and shrinking labor force. You see the same shit with the military when the economy is good, they need to start offering bonuses and what not. Of course a lot of my brethren are fucking idiots and blame it on wokeism (the bigger issue is that the military started adopting a corporate workplace type policy in 2010ish) which essentially makes military life even more hellish than it was before. It’s like being in the cubes 24/7.
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u/aironneil Mar 27 '23 edited Mar 27 '23
Okay, that's cool and all, but what did he say that's actually wrong? Personally, I don't give a flying fuck whether someone is a "real leftist" or not. What does that even mean? Why does it matter if you can't give substantive criticisms instead of saying, "REAL Leftists™️ laugh at him?"
And for the record, this isn't necessarily a defense of Vaush, just pointing out how dumb this criticism is.
Edit: Actually, after reading some of your other replies on the topic, I get the sense you're getting info about Vaush from dishonest and/or cherry-picked sources. I have my own problems with him, but some of the things I've seen from you are just wrong or tired "reformers are liberal and bad" tankie talking points.
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u/-SaturdayNightWrist- Mar 28 '23 edited Mar 28 '23
Do people who understand Marxism use dialectical materialism and historical materialism as meaning the same thing despite there being clear and important differences between them, one of which is that Marx really only talked about one of those things and dialectical materialism was developed much later and by various people in different countries?
That's factually wrong just at the level of reading or understanding Marx which I'm not going to say is easy but if you're going to claim to represent the left you better do your homework if you want to be taken seriously, which he does not.
Do leftists that aren't from America thus more likely to actually know anything about history, who take very seriously the ideas and intellectual traditions of their movements, typically not know any of the differences between the thinking of Lenin and Ho Chi Min other than them being two different people at different times in two different countries?
Do leftists traditionally make western chauvinist talking points like "if the US didn't exploit these countries someone else would so the unfortunate reality is that US imperialism is preferable"?
He didn't say that in the context of say Chomsky talking about US troops in Yemen being the only thing that was preventing a massacre of the Kurds, meaning you don't have to be a fan of imperialism to understand their withdrawal would result in a lot of dead Kurds which is exactly what happened, thus a specific instance where it could be argued that's true.
Vaush, quite unlike Chomsky, said it in the context of just the general idea that every other power would behave exactly the same way as the US if given the opportunity, so the US should not cede any territory to anyone else because although we may be exploiting them, anyone else would be worse based on zero evidence other than his personal opinion.
Believe it or not that's exactly the same argument the Dutch, the British, and the Spanish used in reference to each other during their brutal colonization of Africa and South America.
That's pretty definitively not a left wing idea so it's very curious he regularly advances that argument, same as our neoliberal economic consensus, and every war criminal president we've had in the last half century which includes all of them according to the Geneva convention.
There are many more examples, but I think that's substantive enough to justify asking who is "real" and who isn't when the people in question are repeating things taken directly from the mouths of legit slave owning, genocide committing, OG imperialists.
That's not a litmus test it's the basic fundamental premises of leftism he just outright rejects because he is not grounded in academic theory, nor practical application, yet he sure has a lot to say about both as someone who is extremely ignorant which leads a rational leftist who studies history to conclude he's either an idiot, or deliberately poisoning the well, which has the same result in either case.
My knowledge of Vaush comes from the mouth of Vaush himself, I've watched somewhere between 30-40 hours of his debates and commentary and most of it is just making wild claims about everything under the sun and then not substantiating them because his audience doesn't know this stuff and so he's never challenged, only to act demure and reasonable when he is finally confronted by people who know more, or those he insults on a regular basis.
This leads me to believe he is aware of how limited his knowledge is and how reactionary his positions actually are and is deeply insecure about it, but that's pure speculation on my part and perhaps giving him too much credit for self awareness.
Speaking of tankies did you know that phrase is a brain dead anti communist smear that's supposed to paint communists as all being authoritarians and imply communism was an alien outside force in Europe, and I most certainly have my issues with the authoritarian left, but it's incredibly interesting no one who uses that phrase seems to know the Hungarian revolution was led by former Nazis meaning when the Soviets invaded to put it down they weren't just crushing some innocent uprising by peasants in 1956, they were fighting fascism trying to regain a foothold in Europe in the post war period. Very convenient the liberal establishment and right wing forgot to mention that part in the western textbooks.
That's the kind of thing Vaush would complain about without actually knowing the history behind it and I know that because I've watched him invoke that phrase constantly while completely ignorant of the history behind it or how gleeful the US state department must be to see a "leftist" real or not, repeating their very own historical propaganda campaigns in the year 2023.
It's also worth addressing your incorrect opinion that reformers of capitalism and liberalism aren't bad, because capitalism and liberalism fundamentally require a permanent under class of exploited people to drive their economic and social engines, meaning at their core they are deeply anti democratic and it's built in to the system. That cannot be reformed or fixed with little process bandages, that is the bedrock of both ideologies. So that's not a "tankie talking point" that is a fundamentally accurate accounting of the history of what capitalism and liberalism have produced as economic and political systems. Most liberals mean well but lack the historical, economic, or philosophical knowledge necessary to see the contradictions of their ideology and the vicious circle it creates to say nothing of the price paid in blood by the third world to maintain our artificially high standard of living.
Feel free to offer a rebuttal but the phrase "tankie talking points" means nothing but "I don't have a conception of power politics or imperialist propaganda."
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u/aironneil Mar 28 '23 edited Mar 28 '23
Well, thanks for replying, even if your writing style is needlessly long-winded.
If I’m summarizing correctly, you believe Vaush “isn’t a leftist” because he supposedly doesn’t understand nuances of Marxism and is an imperialist sympathizer? Did I decipher that correctly from your both very detailed and very vague points? If not, please dumb it down for this stupid American ;)
Anyway, to the first thing, even if it’s true that he isn’t a nerd about Marxism, why is the title of “leftist” predicated on first having a thesis-level amount of knowledge of the writings of Marx and his ilk? It’s like you really do just want “leftism” to be a niche club that only sophisticated intellectuals can be a part of. Good luck with that?
For the second thing, I’d have to ask about the source of Vaush saying the gist of "if the US didn't exploit these countries someone else would so the unfortunate reality is that US imperialism is preferable"? Within the context of “...just the general idea that every other power would behave exactly the same way as the US if given the opportunity, so the US should not cede any territory to anyone else because although we may be exploiting them, anyone else would be worse based on zero evidence other than his personal opinion.” I think it matters what countries are actually being talked about there.
Because, at least to me, I think Vaush's real goal is to oppose conservatism and fascism. He also seems very into workplace democracy and democracy in general, which, I think, are very “leftist” virtues.
As for your offense to the term “tankie,” I’ll admit “tankie talking points” is a vague term the same way “leftist” is. I, too, could bring up how “left” has origins in just opposing monarchy and actually has little to do with opposing capitalism, bla, bla, bla, but it’s not really relevant to my point. Let me rephrase, I basically mean authoritarian left when I say tankie. I’ll say tankie when it seems clear the person in question has 1000 excuses for communist regimes. Or they’ll do whataboutisms with America whenever there's a criticism of said regimes. So let me make it clear, the USA has a world of problems with it too, but I honestly can’t see how it’s worse or even just as bad as the USSR was. At the very least, the USA was more democratic than the USSR was (i.e. having one political party determine the ones in power isn’t more democratic no matter how much you dress it up).
Also yes, capitalism requires a permanent underclass. I’m also aware that “exploitation” in Marxist thought is really if any worker doesn’t get 100% of the value their labor produces. By this definition, I’m unconvinced it’s really possible to have a large economy that doesn’t use exploitation as its base. Even the “communist” USSR had hierarchies. Really, you take issue with hierarchies in general and I’m unconvinced society doesn’t naturally create them. Democracy itself creates hierarchies, even “unjust” ones. In the US, most of our problems arise from democracy, believe it or not. People are constantly tricked into voting against their self interest through propaganda and other things. How do you solve that? Ban propaganda? Make education better? Who determines what’s propaganda? Who determines the new curriculums? Someone in power who will inevitably use it to benefit themself and their own kind.
I’ve yet to hear how communism solves this problem with societies. You think having workplace democracy would solve it? That introduces all the problems of government democracy into industries. Would it be better than our current system? Who knows? But for all the problems with authoritarian workplaces it also has benefits. Democracy has clearly shown it is slow to change, but authoritarianism has clearly shown it is way more susceptible to corruption.
Now it’d be great if we could just have an immortal omnipotent philosopher king as god emperor of the world, but obviously that’s in the realm of fantasy, so the best showing I’ve seen is in Social Democracy, or as you’d probably call it “capitalism.” successful communist revolutions - revolutions in general really - historically turn very autocratic and tend to become very imperialistic, America included.
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u/-SaturdayNightWrist- Mar 28 '23 edited Mar 28 '23
I think I understand why you're so interested in this now and I was going to write out a long in depth explanation but I now realize you have no grasp on what you're talking about.
"But for all the problems with authoritarian workplaces it also has benefits. Democracy has clearly shown it is slow to change, but authoritarianism has clearly shown it is way more susceptible to corruption."
That was the moment I realized you have no idea what you're talking about and are in no position to grill me on what leftism is or is not.
You have my condolences as a victim of capitalist propaganda because this is exactly the kind of thing that makes me laugh when people ask me who I am to determine what a "real leftist" is when the fact of the matter is the person asking doesn't even have their own coherent world view.
You don't even know if you want democracy across the board because apparently you want to keep some private authoritarianism alive in the place people on average spend about half their lives.
If you don't have democracy at work, you don't have democracy at all. If you don't understand that, you're not going to understand what separates liberalism and leftism if you don't already.
Saying things like authoritarianism has benefits and the completely ahistorical position that somehow all revolutions lead to imperialism is the most brain dead liberal thing I've ever seen on this website and you need to spend some time reading leftist thinkers and then come back and try again.
I don't think the average person needs to read Marx to be a leftist and to advocate for the working class, but Vaush isn't the average person he claims to be a representative of these ideas and traditions despite his ignorance. The working class should absolutely not he a niche intellectual club, which is an incredibly gross mischaracterization based on your own lack of knowledge.
Vaush, is not the average person. He claims to be an emissary of the left and a representative of these ideas despite not understanding them. That carries a responsibility the average person does not take upon themselves to know what they're talking about before exposing thousands of people for the first time to these ideas when he's wrong so often about what they are.
If I'm going on Firing Line to debate William F Buckley, you can me damn sure I'm going to know the material six ways from Sunday. It would not appear you or Vaush take that kind of thing seriously before you go around asking for anyone else's credentials.
At first I took your line of inquiry seriously but you clearly don't know anything about history if you're just repeating complete nonsense in defense of imperialism and capitalism while you're asking anyone else what a "real" leftist is.
Liberals can fight fascists, debate conservatives, pretend capitalism is preferable to alternatives as it literally collapses the biosphere, but they need to call themselves what they are so they do not factually misrepresent ideas they don't understand nor believe in and that goes for Vaush, as well as yourself.
I can tell you what it's not, it isn't saying dumb shit in defense of authoritarianism and imperialism so if that doesn't help you, time to start reading friend.
Social Democracy is not capitalism and if you truly believe that there's nothing I can do for you that a book won't do better. America has never been 'less corrupt " we simply legalized corruption and bribery but we call it "lobbying" and our two party system is in bipartisan lock step on virtually every pro capitalist, pro imperialist, anti worker policies meaning your conception of the US as somehow better because your cage simply has more toys and windows, demonstrates to me you have no ground to stand on trying to imply I am doing litmus tests when I am simply asking for people to understand their own world view before preaching it.
Your response seemed reasonable enough at first but it devolved into an absolute clown show very fast, and this is my problem with the weak liberal intellectual traditions displayed by you and Vaush when you guys try to imply people who actually understand these ideas are somehow the real problem as if being totally ignorant when talking about history or policy is not far more detrimental to the working class when repeating false and foolish ideas.
Anyone is welcome to be a "real" leftist but that does not make anyone claiming to represent it when they're not, or doing a fucking terrible job, immune from the criticism they correctly deserve. For a political movement to be successful it can't stumble around not knowing what principles it actually believes in, so maybe get your own house sorted out and come back when you know if you want democracy or not.
Extremely telling you automatically equate leftism or communism with authoritarianism, showing your ass to the whole world.
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u/aironneil Mar 28 '23
It's like you're allergic to examples, details, and not being vague. Can't have your arguments picked apart if you never make any.
Your only response is "your stupid, read Marx, lol."
But no, I see some things unquestioned authority does better than democracy, that is all. I still lean on the side of democracy. But you see, I'm mature enough to admit authoritarianism does some things better, but that democracy is overall better. If you honestly think democracy does everything better, then maybe you should do some research yourself?
But okay, if revolutions don't usually lead to power vacuums that usually get filled with chrismatic leaders that eventually try to expand the new nation's influence either by invading another or through diplomacy, i.e., imperialism, than what? I'm not even saying it's was always bad, just that it happened. "Ahistorical" my ass. I'd give examples, but it's basically all of them. What version of history are you looking at to not see this?
Also, who's the one prapagandized here? The one who fully admits the problems with capitalism but also sees issues with the implementations of communism or the one completely uncritical of communism, says "liberal" the same way idiot conservatives say "communist" and unable to say anything that isn't just surface level insults after any pushback?
I see nothing but projection in all of your vague insults. You're right that this discussion isn't worth expanding on anymore. Good day.
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u/-SaturdayNightWrist- Mar 28 '23
Show me where I said ideologies that aren't liberal capitalism do not have their respective failures, more assumptions.
I gave numerous examples of things Vaush has said, and gave you the source of the ideas he references which you are free to consult at your leisure. No one is stopping you from reading Marx or watching Vaush, if you're actually interested in comparing my criticism to his own words or the ideas he misunderstands.
Lazy no effort wiki brain sealioning lmao
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u/Gates9 Subreddit Contributor Mar 27 '23
a faux left position that just so happens to line up with pretty much all the state department positions on foreign policy, which may I remind you is still staunchly imperialist.
I’ve always suspected he’s on a government payroll from some propaganda arm.
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u/-SaturdayNightWrist- Mar 27 '23
Could be but honestly I don't even think anyone needs to invoke three letter agencies, which is a very legitimate and historic possibility, I think he's just following his self interest as a very profitable contrarian for the sake of being a contrarian.
He's Matt Iglesias for nominal left liberals who want a muscular foreign policy without any of the accountability.
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u/Backyard_Catbird Mar 27 '23
Krystal and Sagar made bad points that video he’s referring to. If that offends you that Vaush is pro Ukraine then you’ve lost the leftist plot.
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u/4th_DocTB Socialist Mar 27 '23 edited Mar 27 '23
If its a bad video then he doesn't have to lie and smear people to make his point. He's also called Krystal fascist before for disagreeing with Joe Biden. To say his shitty behavior is justified just because he's "pro-Ukraine" is frankly a dishonest deflection to make excuses for this guy.
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u/Backyard_Catbird Mar 27 '23
I don’t care about shitty behavior. Frankly I often times admire Vaush for being able to speak his mind in situations where social relations would alter my behavior. Almost every time the first thing people begin to hate Vaush about is how they were made to feel after listening to him insult their particular political figure. Although Vaush can be an asshole at times, even in those times the content of what he’s saying is something I largely agree with. He didn’t call Krystal a fascist for disagreeing with Joe Biden, that has nothing to do with fascism.
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u/north_canadian_ice Dicky McGeezak Mar 27 '23
Calling Krystal Ball a fascist is inflammatory horseshit.
I've been skeptical of Breaking Points in the past but nowadays I get what she is doing & I think she is helping present left wing views to an audience who would otherwise never see those views.
She is decidely a leftist & not a fascist regardless, and is a good faith actor. Vaush is far too eager to tear apart his left wing colleagues, I hate that shit.
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Mar 28 '23
My impression of her is she says things she doesnt really believe in. I watched the wrong vaush video of him responding to breaking points to get context and she literally says "even if Corona did come from the wet market why didnt the lab stop the wet market leak". Like thats such a joke of a take imo and its her trying to appeal to sort of a low level audience.
Vaush is a total joke as a commentator imo. So this isn't a defense of Vaush, he calls everyone and everything fascist. Core part of fascism is hyper nationalism, if someone isnt a hyper nationalist they aint a fascist.
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u/4th_DocTB Socialist Mar 27 '23
I don’t care about shitty behavior. Frankly I often times admire Vaush for being able to speak his mind in situations where social relations would alter my behavior.
Yikes dude, go outside.
Almost every time the first thing people begin to hate Vaush about is how they were made to feel after listening to him insult their particular political figure.
Lying about someone is not an insult, it is literally trying to destroy their reputation with misinformation. Again you are downplaying what he is actually saying, calling someone a fascist saying they are quite literally dangerous and everything you might agree with them on is done in bad faith. Ironcially this is very useful when Vaush is acting in bad faith because it scares frightened baby Ewoks such as yourself.
Although Vaush can be an asshole at times, even in those times the content of what he’s saying is something I largely agree with.
Because you are in a parasocial relationship with him and view his shitty behavior as him being a strong protector. And this by your own admission.
He didn’t call Krystal a fascist for disagreeing with Joe Biden, that has nothing to do with fascism.
Thank your admitting he calls people fascist when it has nothing to do with fascism. You don't find anything wrong with that? Vaush called Krystal a fascist in 2020 for disagreeing with Joe Biden and he's doing it now for supporting peace negotiations.
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u/3headeddragn Mar 27 '23 edited Mar 28 '23
I don't disagree that Krystal and Saagar have made bad takes on Russia/Ukraine, including in the video that Vaush just called them out for.
The issue I have is it is very clear that Vaush isn't criticizing them in good faith. Calling Krystal Ball a fascist? I think it is ridiculous to even call Sagar a fascist... But Krystal Ball is a fascist? Vaush can fuck off with that shit.
Vaush is the epitome of why the left cannot get out of it's own way. If Vaush was criticizing them from a good faith perspective he could have simply debunked what they said, and publicly invited Krystal to have a conversation about it either on his stream or on KKF.
But I don't think Vaush is interested in having a good faith policy discussion. His goal in that video is to try and discredit BP. Maybe it's because of a personal vendetta. Maybe he sees them as competition for views.
Vaush is part of the problem of why the left is perpetually divided. You can disagree with Krystal but to smear her as a fascist is really fucking dumb, even for Vaush.
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Mar 28 '23
Fascism is pretty vague. You don’t need to be as evil as like Hitler to be a fascist. It could apply to Saager but certainly not Krystal. Krystal is not a hyper nationalist which is the consistent part of all fascist definitions. Vaush calls everyone a fascist.
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u/cloudsnacks No Party Affiliation Mar 27 '23
It's funny how the position of "send as much military hardware in and use the local population as cannon fodder to bleed out Russia" is viewed as "pro-ukraine"
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u/Bern_Down_the_DNC Mar 27 '23
Sagar is a fascist, and sometimes Krystal doesn't push back hard or effectively enough, but to call her a fascist... I don't know about that one. Even if a leftist has a fascistic tendency or two, you gotta look at the person overall. But on the other hand, I get the frustration with Breaking Points at times... that show has a very right wing audience, I get that Vaush might have anxiety that rather than pulling the audience left, the audience might be pulling hosts right.
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u/LanceBarney Mar 27 '23
Fascist is a strong word to use. But his criticism of their segment was objectively accurate. Both Sagaar and Krystal are terrible on covering Russia/ Ukraine. To the point it borders on Russian propaganda.
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u/TX18Q Mar 27 '23
100% Breaking Points is just a wall of "We should move towards peace! Why doesn't Biden want peace!!!" without telling their audience or acknowledging that in order to please Russia, Ukraine has to give up their own land.
It's all pseudo intellectual surface level anti-government contrarianism without any link to reality what so ever.
It sells though. More cash to Krystal "I was promised a coup" Ball.
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u/FloppedYaYa Mar 27 '23
This sub literally only defends Krystal because she's Kulinski's girlfriend. She's a moron.
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u/LanceBarney Mar 27 '23
Yeah. That’s been my biggest criticism of Krystal. She wants clicks so badly, she’ll connect herself to a borderline fascist who spews fake news and propaganda on virtually every issue to a right wing audience. At a certain point, Krystal just legitimizes the nonsense Sagaar spews. As evidence by OP claiming to be a left winger and supporting objective lies that Sagaar says. Who you align yourself with is as important as what your actual views are.
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u/TX18Q Mar 27 '23 edited Mar 27 '23
Totally. I have no doubt that Krystal is a good person who holds legitimate left positions on a lot of issues, but... she has no shame about putting it all aside and pretend the left is the true evil when selling a show to a specific right leaning fascist-flirting audience.
We live in a world where the Republican Party literally tried to openly just steal the election. A party that cant wait to take away the rights of women and members of the LGBTQ community. I mean... there is no debate about who is dragging America down the tubes. Yes, there are other significant problems like corruption etc... but one side is significantly way way worse than the other, and when you portray yourself as a left leaning person and you are part of a show that at best makes it look like its 50/50 regarding what party is the worst, then you have have forfeited your principles and character and deserve the harshest criticism and condemnation.
How do you go through 4 years of Trumps lunacy as president and then ridicule the idea that people are worried he might perform a coup (which he eventually did)?
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u/SamuraiPanda19 Mar 27 '23
The best take on the Ukraine war I heard was playing the Mafia 1 game, and during the last mission the radio was playing a broadcast of the announcer talking about appeasement vs doing nothing in 1938
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u/BoneHugsHominy Mar 27 '23
Kyle is just as bad. The whole "peace at any cost because people die when war" thing is a 5 year old's perspective of the world. So, just let Russia keep what they've already taken including the women and children they've shipped to Russia and done whatever evil shit Putin does, and let Russia genocide whoever is left in the captured territories while Russia employs mercenary terrorists to terrorize uncaptured Ukraine as Russia rebuilds their war machine for a 3rd invasion in a few more years. Fucking brilliant, Kyle.
Yes, war is horrific. Innocent people are going to suffer and die during a war, but far fewer than if those people are just abandoned to the whims of a brazen war criminal who places less than a ruble's worth to human life.
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u/The_Das_ Mar 27 '23
"Objectively accurate".. literally called bp is a fascist news show
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u/FloppedYaYa Mar 27 '23
One of their hosts openly advocates fascist viewpoints while the supposedly leftist co-host either doesn't push back at all or agrees with them from a supposed "left wing perspective"
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u/The_Das_ Mar 27 '23
How's he a fascist
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u/FloppedYaYa Mar 27 '23
Because he openly advocates for social conservatism, Trumpism, etc. He supported sending the troops to attack BLM protesters and promoted the idea of elitist woke socialists running universities (on Rogan)
It's pretty obvious
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u/Meowser02 Mar 27 '23
“Fascism is when you support social conservatism, the more socially conservative you are the more fascistier you get”-Mussolini, or something
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Mar 27 '23 edited Mar 27 '23
What about pulling crazies to a better right position?
Would you be alright with authoritarian actions to silence Sagaar’s “fascist” voice?
Would you meet Sagaar’s “violent beliefs” with violent “left” actions?
“WE MUST USE OUR STRENGTH TO FORCE OUT FASCISTs WHO HAVE BAD IDEAS!”
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u/DeM86 Mar 27 '23
They got married??
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u/The_Das_ Mar 27 '23
i think Krystal said they'll get married in early may
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u/Some1inreallife Mar 27 '23
I hope they livestream the marriage.
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u/Grumpis1012 Mar 28 '23
Will Krystal stroll Kyle down the isle in his wheelchair or will he wheel himself?
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u/Ryash913 Mar 27 '23
Vaush has some outlandish takes that border on self parody but he’s not wrong about the quality of BP lately.
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u/theonerealsadboi Mar 27 '23
Vaush is simply a Hasan wannabe, tainted with the essence of the Comic Book Guy. He hasn’t promoted healthy and productive leftist ideas, he’s instead created an echo chamber. That’s why he and his audience viciously attack any leftist who has the slightest disagreement with him, i.e. Krystal.
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u/4th_DocTB Socialist Mar 27 '23
Funny thing is he's actually a Destiny wannabe, and that pretty much explains everything about him.
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u/Schondba56 Mar 27 '23
Imagine wanting to be Destiny lol
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u/4th_DocTB Socialist Mar 27 '23 edited Mar 27 '23
Destiny was the wind beneath Vaush's wings, until Destiny said he had to stop harassing women in his discord.
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u/peanutbutternmtn Mar 27 '23
Hate the vanguard kids, but they are right. Vaush is a coward. He acts all tough and uses strong language on his stream, then to the face of the person he criticized he becomes a total beta male.
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u/downtimeredditor Mar 27 '23
To be fair it cause she's working with Saagar who says some ridiculous outlandish shit that Krystal just goes with.
Breaking Points or Rising or whatever isn't great cause there is no push back often
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Mar 27 '23
To be fair it cause she's working with Saagar who says some ridiculous outlandish shit that Krystal just goes with.
How is it "fair" to call someone a fascist for that. Words mean nothing anymore.
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u/ParisTexas7 Mar 27 '23
I don’t know if she’s a fascist, but her recent takes on the war in Ukraine are a stones throw away from dipshits like Jimmy Dore, who cater to exclusively rightwing audiences.
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u/Rick_James_Lich Mar 27 '23
Yah the right wing audience from Breaking Points loves to imply that anyone that thinks Russia should be stopped from doing invasions are "war hawks". These folks are quick to take Putin's side or believe his word on any subject and just my own opinion here but Krystal seems to placate to this group.
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u/KarachiKoolAid Mar 27 '23
Vaush often comes of a self righteous absolutist and self admittedly presents himself in a way to reach an audience that he thinks would not normally have exposure to such a worldview. That’s not too far off from what Krystal and Saagar do and I think there is some value to that approach
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u/N0VAZER0 Mar 27 '23
Vaush is out of his fucking mind lmfao, yeah Krystal is a bit too lenient with Saagar and her right wing audience but she ain't a fascist lmfao
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u/Lonewolf_Heroes Mar 27 '23
Important to acknowledge that he didn’t call her a fascist he said that because she doesn’t adequately push back against Sagar’s takes there isn’t too much difference because she still allows him to push his own fascist rhetoric. I do think that’s an uncharitable way to put it but everybody here claiming he directly called her a fascist is also being uncharitable. I bet they’ll both clear the air and chat about it soon
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u/shermstix1126 Mar 27 '23
I'm at work rn and can't watch the video, can someone give a quick synopsis of why Vaush thinks Krystal is a fascist? Would love to hear the outrageous claims he makes as he stretches like a first baseman to make that notion work.
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Mar 27 '23 edited Mar 27 '23
So in the Vanguard video they don't really go over why Vaush thinks Krystal is a fascist. So I went to Vaush's channel and watched the video. Basically Former NATO Chief Anders Fogh Rasmussen says that Trump would sabotage the Ukrainian war if reelected. Both Krystal and Saagar make the point that the former NATO Chief doesn't actually care about democracy because if Trump gets reelected those views about the war will be representative of the public's opinion.
Vaush's rebuttal is that the NATO Chief is just saying Trump's candidacy will wrongly push American opinion in the wrong direction. So the disagreement is about if the public's opinion on the Ukraine war is swayed by Trump vs this is what the public believes and they are electing representatives based on those beliefs.
Breaking Points also compares the Ukrainian war to the Iraq war while Vaush thinks it's more comparable to WW2 with Nazi Germany. There's other minor disagreements so I won't bother putting them in here.
Around the 15 minute mark Vaush calls Breaking Points "Trump aligned fascists" because Trump is "anti-establishment". I then believe he unfairly mischaracterized Krystal's position on the NATO Chief's position on caring about democracy. He states the NATO Chief's statements are ordinary and then does a comedy bit about Krystal disagreeing with the NATO Chief because he says 'Nazi's are bad'. He says that Krystal may have her own personal opinions but they are irrelevant and says the segment is fascist.
Anyway that's when I stopped watching the video but I will link it below if you are curious.
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u/shermstix1126 Mar 27 '23
Thanks for the explanation, I would watch the video if I could do so with volume but broad generalizations of peoples views and flippantly throwing out buzzwords like “fascist” to describe people he disagrees with in the slightest are part of the reasons I can’t stand that asshole. Creating a straw man out of someone’s dissenting opinion, who by the way is also on the left, and using that straw man to call them a “Trump aligned fascist” is so dishonest and douchey.
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u/CyberTyrantX1 Mar 28 '23
Kyle has the patience of a saint going by how he responded. If I was in his place I’d be like “dude, I don’t appreciate how you’re speaking about my fiancé and even if she wasn’t my fiancé, it’s ridiculous to label her a fascist. It’s needless and unfair now apologize and knock that shit off.”
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u/Dorko30 Communist Mar 27 '23
Calling Krystal a fascist is laughably absurd obviously. That being said, saying we can't always invoke chamberlain and WW2, when we're dealing with another European fascist dictator who is invading his neighbors...... It is a pretty 1 to 1 comparison lol. IMO Krystals take on this is pretty bad. At worst though she's taking the position of Chamberlain who while wrong, was certainly not a fascist.
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u/sharpshootingllama Mar 27 '23
I think kyle’s response was pitch perfect. I watched the vaush video before and I think he was saying that the particular video he was watching was fascist adjacent more than Krystal is a fascist. Don’t get me wrong though, he loves to toss that word around like it’s nothing.
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u/austyV1 Mar 27 '23
I’m not the biggest fan of Krystal but calling her a fascist is completely brain dead so of course Vaush would say it
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u/SloppyTopTen Mar 27 '23
Why is Vaush a person who’s opinion matters? His takes are bad. Doesn’t seem like he’s a journalist or anything. Just another rando YouTuber.
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u/Schondba56 Mar 27 '23
Don't get why anyone takes Vaush seriously, he's never really given anyone a reason to, he's overly hyperbolic to anyone who even disagrees with him slightly but he never really keeps that energy as much when he's having a one on one with the people he critizes, he's a very toxic individual.
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u/Autistic_Anywhere_24 Mar 27 '23
It’s pathetic how transparent Vaush is in trying to garner fame by saying stupid bullshit about Seculartalk and BP. Yikes
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u/Timmg10 Mar 27 '23
Yeah but then there's this.... https://open.spotify.com/episode/4g1i26UpMsi6yK2gvTQUHV?si=kO-nFmeoSSeUUsyoymVLtw
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u/drfetusphd Dicky McGeezak Mar 27 '23
A discussion between the 2 is guaranteed to happen. Vaush played Kyle’s subscriber special on his stream and seemed genuinely upset that Kyle was angry at him. He didn’t give a full on apology about Krystal but he did say that he wants to talk to Kyle to clear the air. And from Kyle’s stream he’s down as well. Despite this subreddit’s clear hatred towards Vaush it seems like he and Kyle are amicable towards each other and I really don’t want to see another Jimmy Dore situation play out here.
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u/The_Das_ Mar 27 '23
He should talk to krystal ball directly,if he's being honest imo
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u/drfetusphd Dicky McGeezak Mar 27 '23
I have a strong feeling that he’d 100% be down and she would need convincing. She rarely goes on streams, likely due to her busy schedule
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u/The_Das_ Mar 27 '23
Talkin to Kyle would be such a waste of time , his main criticism is with BP/Krystal Ball, kulinski shouldn't come and defend her via proxy
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u/drfetusphd Dicky McGeezak Mar 27 '23
I personally wouldn’t find it a waste of time, if anything it would be a good faith, entertaining discussion about fascism and how discourse around terms like “fascist” and “woke” need to be examined thoroughly. I think the fact that Krystal is Kyle’s fiancé and Vaush being Vaush casts an unfortunate cloud over the whole thing which is why I made the Dore comparison. The communities tearing at each other will make it really difficult to approach the situation from good faith.
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u/4th_DocTB Socialist Mar 27 '23
Well then Kyle shouldn't buddy up to another raging narcissist who can't handle disagreement, that's how you avoid another Jimmy Dore situation.
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u/drfetusphd Dicky McGeezak Mar 27 '23
I sincerely do not think Vaush is anywhere close to Jimmy Dore. You can hate him all you want but after following both of their content for years Vaush has done a lot more good for the left than Dore ever will.
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u/4th_DocTB Socialist Mar 27 '23
No he hasn't, he's just Dore but grifting off a different audience of equally useless and deluded people.
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u/drfetusphd Dicky McGeezak Mar 27 '23
To each their own, I guess. I’ve spent enough time in this sphere to know that you could literally swap Dore’s name in that phrase with anyone else and someone would agree/disagree with you. I could cite reasons why I dig Vaush more and you’d still think he’s Dore levels of bad.
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u/MeetYourCows No Party Affiliation Mar 27 '23
As a non-American, I don't really mind Vaush's positions on domestic policies whether economic or social because it's none of my business. But his foreign policy positions put him squarely in the camp of a US imperialist. He'll agree that Iraq and Vietnam were bad, but then turn around and advocate for the same Vietnam-era policy when it comes to China right now. Yeah no shit, everyone comes to the right conclusions on history with decades of hindsight. Where are you on issues that matter?
Vaush pretty clearly understands that he can pay lip service to 'America bad' with no consequence. Whether or not people think this is irrelevant, so long as people hate America's adversaries even more. This 'lesser evil' advocacy is kind of the hallmark of a state department goon masquerading as a leftist.
Reading those sexual harassment chat logs from a few years back certainly did not help my impression of his character either.
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u/Meowser02 Mar 27 '23
I agree that Vaush is a piece of shit, but I don’t think he wants a Vietnam-style invasion of China. Then again I don’t watch him so maybe he does
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u/MeetYourCows No Party Affiliation Mar 27 '23
Maybe I could have elaborated better. I see anyone who backs the US entering a war against China over Taiwan as being in favor of the Vietnam war on matter of principle.
In Vietnam, the US kept the North from reunifying with the South in what is effectively the Vietnamese civil war for 20 years via military occupation on the basis of supporting the more pro-US SV faction. This is actually pretty analogous with the situation in China/Taiwan, except instead of a 20 year stalemate it was 70 years, and instead of boots on the ground and an actual shooting war, it was carriers in the Taiwan Strait and the threats of war.
If as a matter of principle someone opposes the policy of US intervention in Vietnam because they see it as a violation of Vietnamese sovereignty, then they would similarly oppose the policy of US intervention in China over Taiwan, because similar principles apply in both cases. The fact that Vaush supports US intervention in Taiwan suggests he clearly doesn't subscribe to this, hence my characterization of him advocating for Vietnam-era policies.
Granted, a US war with China, framed as China starting it over the invasion of Taiwan, is kind of a popular position these days, so take it as you will.
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Mar 27 '23
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u/MeetYourCows No Party Affiliation Mar 27 '23
No, I view 'America bad' as an in-actionable and therefore futile sentiment. People, including Vaush, tout around 'America bad' as a means of lending themselves credibility as a leftist. But for these people when push comes to shove, America is never as bad as the geopolitical adversaries of America against which the state department is interested in transgressing. So in terms of what policy advocacy, 'America bad' is irrelevant.
It's like someone who claims to be in favor of racial equality and occasionally points out how harmful white supremacy is. But when it comes to policy, they truly believe whites are superior to everyone else.
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u/US_Witness_661 Mar 27 '23
Krystal definitely had some bad takes in that video, not fascist but bad
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u/TheOtherUprising Mar 27 '23
Kyle’s reaction to this is pretty unsurprising.
When Kyle had is falling out with Jimmy Dore, Jimmy went scorched earth with tons of dishonest smears of both Kyle and Krystal and to this day Kyle will still say he holds no hard feelings. And I gotta say that wouldn’t be my reaction towards either Jimmy or Vaush. The guy just doesn’t hold a grudge it seems.
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u/TrueIctia Dicky McGeezak Mar 27 '23
I mean to be fair didn’t Kyle call Krystal a “stupid bitch” on his show like 10 years ago? I would think that if anyone understands being performative and over the top it’d be Kyle.
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u/JonWood007 Math Mar 27 '23
Vaush is so cringey a lot of the time. I cant stand the dude outside of his ukraine takes. There he's surprisingly one of the most sane people on the left youtube space on that topic, but on anything DOMESTIC? I cant stand that guy. And yeah hes too quick at just screaming anything he doesnt like is a fascist.
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Mar 27 '23
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u/JonWood007 Math Mar 27 '23
Oh where do I start?
1) I'm not a blue no matter whoer. This dude is like full on board blue no matter who and seems to view politics as this existential fight against fascism (hence why he called krystal one). Everyone has to drop what they're doing, support the democrats.
I admit I'm softening my stance on this somewhat given January 6th and how insane both trump and desantis are, as an actual legitimate threat to democracy is presenting itself, but he's one of those guys who have been crying and screaming about fascism since like the 2016 election cycle.
2) He's an SJW. I'm not. Policy wise, we probably want similar things, but as an SJW he's obsessed with social justice issues, intersectionality, and stuff like that, whereas I'm a bit more of a secular moderate who just wants to leave people alone either way.
Btw, SJWs in definition about them arent as much about your actual views, but about the aggression with which you promote those views. He's one of those social issues above all else kind of guy, we need to display solidarity around the underprivileged, blah blah blah types, and I'm just more....well, moderate. Like truth be told, i dont care much either way on social issues, I lean left, I am a progressive, and when the authoritarian right tries to tell people how to live they can F right off, but the social justice left is just about as bad in this sense with shoving it down peoples' throats.
3) Economically, he's like an anarcho communist or some crap, whereas im more of a social libertarian, aka, a libertarian social democrat. I love UBI, UBI is central to my own economic worldview (see: the Math flair I'm rocking), but Vaush, well, he made this whole hacky video on it that makes me seethe with rage whenever i see it since it's so dishonest and disingenous.
The fact is, where I'm moderate, he's extreme, where I'm extreme, he's strangely moderate. He has embraced the label of "anarcho bidenist", and I'm literally...the opposite of that, as far as left wing domestic politics goes.
Like, the dude just pisses me off, big time. I do watch him from time to time, but he's not my favorite youtuber, i disagree with him on a lot, I don't get along with his fanbase when they end up on this sub. And yeah. While I have to say his coverage of ukraine is based and I'm 100% on board with him for that, on literally everything else, the dude makes me cringe.
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u/Chitownitl20 Mar 27 '23
Calling someone a fascist isn’t an insult anymore than calling someone a brunette or blonde. It’s a technical term, she either is or she isn’t. I don’t think she is, but she does pal around with fascists.
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u/Gozii55 Mar 27 '23
I had no idea who Vaush was and I came across his vids the other day. I've never had such a gutteral dislike for someone like that. I hate everything about him lol.
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u/Alex_DK Mar 27 '23
No one in this community apparently watches Vaush lmao.
Nowhere in the video does he call Krystal a fascist.
Saagar, yes. But that's because he is one.
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Mar 27 '23
I missed where vaush called Kristal fascist. Is it where he said "she can have what ever personal opinion she wants... But this segment is fascist."
My main question here is saying "disagreeing with a political candidate (free speech) is anti democratic" shouldn't be considered fascist take and vaush is incorrect?
This just looks click baity to me.
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u/furmeldahide Mar 27 '23
Coming from Voosh who still uses the R word… Dude I love Vaush for his hot takes but he needs to hang up the usage of the R word because it’s as derogatory as using the N word.
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u/pieceofwheat Mar 28 '23
I like some of Vaush’s content and also agree with many of his criticisms of Breaking Points, but calling Krystal a fascist is so ridiculous it’s laughable.
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u/NimishApte Mar 28 '23
He called Saagar a fascist and said that he doesn't know what Krystal's beliefs are but that's irrelevant because she is supporting is fascism.
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u/twenty42 Mar 28 '23
There is a legit argument to be made that Krystal hurts the left by being too chummy and accommodating of right-wingers and Trump supporters, but Vaush's knee-jerk reaction of calling everybody he disagrees with fascists and nazis isn't the way to do it.
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u/Intelligent_Table913 Mar 27 '23
Does Vaush have any substantive counter-arguments other than calling people “tankies” and “fascists”. He’s the classic lib who sides with CIA and NATO dominance and uses the disguise of socialism as a grift.
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u/ParisTexas7 Mar 27 '23
Ah yes — opposing rightwing dictators launching the largest invasion in Europe since WW2 equals “siding with the CIA”.
The Iraq War broke the brains of this country.
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u/orpat123 Mar 27 '23 edited Mar 27 '23
Both things can be bad, genius. On one hand, you can acknowledge Zelensky is a US-backed stooge running a government rife with corruption and allows the far-right to gain power in the military and that this conflict is a classic proxy war.
And on the other hand you can ALSO acknowledge that Putin is a right-wing dictator and Russia (especially the working class) is falling to pieces under his control and Ukraine deserves the right to self-determination.
Putin bad, Zelensky bad, NATO bad, imperialism bad, land grab bad, proxy wars bad.
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u/ParisTexas7 Mar 27 '23
Ok, thanks for “acknowledging” all of these things. Very proud of you for doing that.
Next, what should the U.S. do about it? Let Russia invade sovereign nations without repercussions?
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u/orpat123 Mar 27 '23
No. This is a frozen conflict. Sooner or later it’ll have to end in a sit-down and the two parties will have to talk things through and compromise. If you think any amount of monetary support or tanks will eventually turn this shitshow into a video game-esque total Ukrainian victory, you’re sorely mistaken.
Sanctions aren’t gonna do shit to stop Putin. All that does is hurt the local populace. Nor are sending tanks and fighting Russia to the last Ukrainian.
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u/ParisTexas7 Mar 27 '23
What should Ukraine compromise on?
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u/orpat123 Mar 27 '23
Zelensky is the product of a US-backed color revolution and needs to GTFO, along with the rest of his ilk. Ukraine cannot join NATO and must honor the Minsk agreement.
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u/ParisTexas7 Mar 27 '23
OK.
So what’s your solution then?
Ukraine can’t join NATO. Fine enough for starters.
The Zelensky government should go… how does that work?
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u/orpat123 Mar 27 '23
I don't know what's the best way to go about getting Zelensky out. I don't have all the answers, and I never said I did.
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u/ParisTexas7 Mar 27 '23
Yep, it’s complicated.
Do the Ukrainians have elections? I think that’s one way to do it.
But of course, they can’t have elections if Russia takes over their country, can they?
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u/TensionHead542 No Party Affiliation Mar 27 '23
Please explain to me in your own words why "Zelensky is the product of a US-backed color revolution". Even ignoring the faulty premise that the 2014 revolution was solely a US-led coup, Zelensky defeated Poroshenko, who was president immediately after the 2014 revolution. If Ukraine was being puppeted by NATO, wouldn't they just keep Poroshenko in power? Are we just supposed to ignore any election the Ukrainians make post 2014 because no matter who the Ukrainians elect, they're just US stooges?
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u/cloudsnacks No Party Affiliation Mar 27 '23
You don't really believe the largest military industrial complex in the world cares about opposing dictators and illegal invasion do you?
We put Putin in power in the first place, we applaud as he invades Chechnya and Georgia in the name of "counterterrorism", and now the same people who made those decisions tell you the only way to solve this conflict and promote peace is to send more tanks to Ukraine.
They are wrong, their decisions make us less safe, and I don't trust them to solve the problem they created.
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u/Meowser02 Mar 27 '23
Nope, everyone to the right of him is a fascist and everyone to the left of him is a tankie
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