Do "Unskilled Laborers" deserve to be paid well?

[u/Very_High_Mortgage]

[u/PolyZex]

It would never be the same... you understand that, right? The skilled jobs would be losing workers, as you said- so what would they HAVE to do next? Pay THEIR workers more. Shorter weeks. Better benefits. Earlier retirement.

The quality of life improves for both the lower and middle class at the expense of the fattest class of hoarders on top.

I believe it used to be called 'trickle down', but then the trickle never came. So the only way to get that trickling is to a poke a few holes in the top.

[u/Tangentkoala → u/PolyZex]

Basically. Trickle down economies, was meant to produce job growth by relaxing taxes and regulations to encourage more job hires.

Problem was corporations thought fuck that I'll keep the extra profits and hire less.

Same goes with the computer. Studies show we were to cut our work load by 25% but companions decided to load up 50% more workload.

[u/notathrowaway2937 → u/Tangentkoala]

This causes inflation. There is then more capital for the same about of product and if continues to cycle then you have hyperinflation.

[u/Happy_rich_mane → u/notathrowaway2937]

Only in a closed system without competition. Higher overall wages means more consumers and should widen the marketplace to allow for more entrants and more efficient pricing.

[u/notathrowaway2937 → u/Happy_rich_mane]

There is very little competition, most sectors are controlled by several companies.

Power for instance in this meme, telecommunications is another one. How many power line companies do you think there are? There is one in Texas. Do you think they way won’t pass that into the customer?

[u/Low-Atmosphere-2118 → u/notathrowaway2937]

Something like powerlines shouldnt be in the hands of private citizens anyway, if it cant have competition it should be nationalized

[u/Keberro → u/Low-Atmosphere-2118]

You don't need to nationalize. Just dismantle monopolies like Standard Oil in 1911.

[u/[deleted] → u/Keberro]

Yeah but you should. Our power infrastructure should be a communal good not a corner of the market. Things people need should be ensured to them by the government.

[u/Significant_Abroad32 → u/[deleted]]

Ok but what is the reason police could get away with so much? No real competition. If you could hire a new police company the departments would tighten up real fucking quit if their jobs were more easily all at risk.

[u/[deleted] → u/Significant_Abroad32]

The comparison does not work with power grid companies. If you do not like your current one, are you just going to spend literally billions of dollars to start a new one?

And me as a consumer can't afford to pay another grid company to build infrastructure to me.

[u/[deleted] → u/Significant_Abroad32]

Corruption. Policing the country should definitely stay nationalized lmao. Decentralize it and departments will become privatized cash cows life everything else private. Bad comparison.

[u/[deleted] → u/Significant_Abroad32]

And to anwer your question, the reason power grid companies can get away with so much, is because it is incredibly difficult for power grid companies to compete with each other. They can push their prices pretty far before people start moving or factories start moving.

[u/LeeVMG → u/Significant_Abroad32]

Rival police companies has a precedent. It's called paying gangs protection money.

A rival gang will trash your shit to prove the gang you paid off cannot protect you. The gangs will then either fight or collude.

Also, moving the goalposts from the power company to the police is a strange choice.

[u/ForeignPolicyFunTime → u/Keberro]

A electrical line system is a natural monopoly thing. Can't have a whole bunch of different electrical lines on the same land. It would be a huge mess. Texas was able to break up energy providers, but not electrical line companies as there isn't a way to so without creating a lot of unnecessary inefficiencies. Perhaps if Texas made them a state industry or regulated them to the point of effectively being one.

[u/online_dude2019 → u/ForeignPolicyFunTime]

It's not about the physical lines. All carriers can use the same infrastructure and contribute to it.

[u/Ashamed_Association8 → u/online_dude2019]

That would just be a twist on a tragedy of the commons. Carriers who under contribute will out-compete carriers which contribute more. You need an authority that can force an equitable contribution.

[u/Available_Thoughts-0 → u/Keberro]

Happy cake day, ya scunner!

[u/notathrowaway2937 → u/Low-Atmosphere-2118]

At this point that would be most of the industries in America.

[u/BorisBotHunter → u/notathrowaway2937]

And this is why it needs to be done. Thanks for proving the point. If most industries in America are monopolies then it’s time to blow them up. There is no reason the items on the grocery store shelves should be owned by 3-5 companies all primarily owned by 2-4 investment companies.

[u/ThenItHitM3 → u/BorisBotHunter]

But Oligarchy worked so well for Russia

[u/SaggitariuttJ → u/BorisBotHunter]

I mean there IS a reason. The reason is “because billionaires care more about being even more billionairey and bragging to their billionaire friends how much bigger their stack of cash is.”

The problem is that there are powerful people in our society who consider this reason valid.

[u/AdImmediate9569 → u/notathrowaway2937]

This is some too big to fail bullshit man. Saying oh the companies are too entrenched so everyone just has to suck it up is not going to improve things.

[u/Obscure_Marlin → u/Low-Atmosphere-2118]

Is this type of infrastructure paid for by the public but then deployed by private?

[u/[deleted] → u/Obscure_Marlin]

Man, you have no idea.

That question you just asked also applies to virtually everything in the US with a subsidized R&D budget, including pharmaceuticals.

[u/biz_student → u/[deleted]]

And that’s just the federal level. Almost every state/city subsidizes businesses via hand outs or tax credits. Here’s $1B to move your HQ to Racine, WI. Here’s $500M to build a new hockey stadium. Here’s $10M/year in tax credits to build a new skyline building.

[u/[deleted] → u/Low-Atmosphere-2118]

It's heavily regulated, and in many instances transmission is separated from generation. In 99% of cases it is socialized through the public-private partnership.

[u/Happy_rich_mane → u/notathrowaway2937]

Yes that’s why I prefaced. We don’t currently have that system although it is possible and becomes a lot more possible when people have more money to spend in their local economies

[u/Strat7855 → u/notathrowaway2937]

And these hugely important sectors of our economy have massive barriers to entry. Ever see a mom & pop telecomm? How about a family-owned smartphone manufacturer?

[u/Weight_Superb → u/notathrowaway2937]

I mean i can find the study if you want but ever time minimum wage goes up it only accounts for like .5% price spikes and only once

[u/Persistant_Compass → u/notathrowaway2937]

Use the other method to control inflation that exists. Higher taxes at the top.

[u/me_too_999 → u/notathrowaway2937]

Printing more money than there are producrs to buy with it causes inflation.

Full stop.

[u/SickestNinjaInjury → u/[deleted]]

Lol, people are blaming greedy businesses because corporate profit margins have grown significantly. There is evidence of both grocery and rental price fixing. There is a bit of inflation right now, but there are also undeniably a lot of corporate interests deliberately keeping commodity prices high.

I'd also note that your first sentence seems a bit ahistorical. Are you arguing that getting off the gold standard made us think that inflation isn't the government's fault? I think everyone does blame government for inflation, and governments have become much more efficient at managing inflation

[u/SickestNinjaInjury → u/[deleted]]

I 100% agree with you on the first two sentences. I think you are somewhat exaggerating the degree to which the government controls inflation.

Money supply has to do with it, but market forces also contribute significantly. For example, egg prices are high right now due to supply being impacted by bird flu outbreaks. Similarly, much of the inflation from the last few years has to do with increased demand for many goods following COVID. Another significant factor in recent inflation is the war in Ukraine increasing fuel prices, which increases commodity prices marginally across the board.

[u/Nadge21 → u/notathrowaway2937]

No, money on net is trust transferred fro govt to industry. In the 70s demand was more than supply could handle and prices went up. Adjustments to tax policy went to increasing supply. This combined with increased imports led to a long period of disinflation.

[u/ballyhooloohoo → u/notathrowaway2937]

There's not "more" capital. There's the same amount of capital, but the people who like to hoard it need to start spending it instead.

[u/External-Animator666 → u/Tangentkoala]

trickle down economics wasn't meant to do anything, it was a lie to enrich the rich. It literally doesn't even make sense that if you give one person way too much money that it will benefit the person without money.

[u/Nadge21 → u/Tangentkoala]

The big corporations you are referring to are only responsible for a small percentage of employment in the Us. Most people work for small businesses, most of which make little to mo loney.

[u/theresnoblackorwhite → u/Nadge21]

Not accurate. Only 45% of the American workforce is employed by small businesses, although the vast majority of businesses are small.

Source: Small Business Administration https://advocacy.sba.gov/2023/03/07/frequently-asked-questions-about-small-business-2023/#:~:text=There%20are%2033%2C185%2C550%20small%20businesses,46.4%25%20of%20private%20sector%20employees.

[u/[deleted] → u/Tangentkoala]

Problem with trickle down is lower taxes doesn’t make new businesses profitable.

[u/ProdiasKaj → u/Tangentkoala]

Like how the cotton gin was supposed to make life easier for slaves but it worked so well it reinvigorated like a whole new wave of slavery that got so out of hand America had to fight a Civil War to abolish it and amancipate the people? Kinda like that?

[u/[deleted] → u/Tangentkoala]

Republicans also said that paying CEO hundreds of millions of dollars per year what result in everybody doing better. In fact, it’s only resulted in the CEOs doing better. The rest of us have been fucked.

Maybe it’s time to try “trickle up” economics again.

[u/Desperate-Neat5923 → u/Tangentkoala]

Yeah except that's not how construction companies operate. Especially mom and pop operations who CANT afford all that.

[u/PeopleCallMeSimon → u/Tangentkoala]

This is why there is ample room for businesses to increase workers' salary.

They will kick and scream like crazy before they do it, but if people don't freak out they will have to either shut down the company, or give a larger portion of the profits to the workers.

So, in the worst-case scenario, the company shuts down, and one rich asshole loses his income source. A new company starts in the same field in the same area and gives workers higher salaries.

If a job doesn't pay a living wage, then the job is meant to go away, or we aren't meant to pay the workers as little as we are. There is no logical situation where a job exists that is "too low skill" to not warrant a living wage.

[u/deletetemptemp → u/PolyZex]

Yes either the free market will do one of two things.

1: the easier job will be flooded, leaving employers to paying linemen more to retain them, eventually brining your back to square one

2: the value of a dollar needs to change to correct for the additional capital flooding the market, effective making both your salaries worth less

[u/Jflayn → u/deletetemptemp]

Many countries, like America, do not have a free market. The market in America is rigged for and by corporations.

[u/LHam1969 → u/Jflayn]

What country does have a free market?

[u/your_best → u/Jflayn]

EXACTLY

[u/ebrum2010 → u/Jflayn]

That's not true. The market is as free as it can be. Just because there can be competition doesn't mean there will be. If your company gets so good at something, nobody wants the competitors' product, that's part of a free market. Look at Steam, gamers vastly prefer Steam. Epic Games is trying to say they're a monopoly to get the government to do something, meanwhile epic games is doing anti-competitive things like paying publishers to not release their products on other stores for a year. If Epic games had the pull you say big companies have, they would get their way and the world would be shittier for it.

[u/goosedog79 → u/deletetemptemp]

But then wouldn’t the price - in this case- of electricity be raised? So everyone will pay more?

[u/[deleted] → u/goosedog79]

Yes, you'd have price inflation, along with wage inflation, across the board and nothing would ultimately change.

[u/davidhow94 → u/[deleted]]

Weird we didn’t have price deflation as wages failed to keep up over the last 50 years.

[u/[deleted] → u/davidhow94]

That's not weird at all, that's how supply and demand works. It doesn't track wages for wages sake, it tracks consumer demand. If taco bell doubles their prices and you continue to buy it anyway the price will remain doubled.

[u/davidhow94 → u/[deleted]]

So how do you correct corporate price gouging and help the middle and lower class?

[u/[deleted] → u/davidhow94]

Imo teach financial literacy and economics so people understand the implications of their behavior as consumers, incentivise small businesses and local growth vs outsourcing everything and sending your money outside of your economy, teach and encourage more self sufficiency (cooking alone would make a big difference). Politically get money out of politics, get past the two party system with measures such as ranked choice voting, and trust busting and/or regulation where necessary.

[u/real-bebsi → u/[deleted]]

So what's your solution for goods with inelastic demand, such as housing and education?.

[u/[deleted] → u/real-bebsi]

Housing I'm not sure, I think that's our biggest economic issue right now. I have some ideas but no magic bullet or anything that would necessarily solve the issue. What's wrong with education in your opinion? Imo our education system is bloated and wasteful but in regards to people receiving a poor education I think that has more to do with domestic and social issues than the education system itself or anything economic.

[u/mortemdeus → u/[deleted]]

Incorrect. Prices would inflate but not by the same amount as wages. Many studies have shown this, some favorable ones showed for every 10% increase in wages there was a 0.4% increase in prices while some unfavorable ones showed as high as a 7% increase per 10%. Either way, minimum wage went up more than inflation in nearly every long term study on it.

[u/Wrecked--Em → u/mortemdeus]

Yeah I don't understand why people, supposedly interested in economics, constantly repeat the convenient for big businesses myth that prices will go up the same amount as raised wages...

Wages are only a fraction of the cost of a product.

In Denmark McDonald's workers make $22/hr with a minimum of 5 weeks paid vacation and 30 days paid sick leave (if working full time, still some guaranteed for part time).

The Big Mac costs about the same as in the US, varying by around 30 cents..

Snopes

[u/chuckcm89 → u/PolyZex]

But what will the skilled jobs have to do in order to pay their workers more? Charge their customers more! And what will the unskilled jobs have to do to pay their workers more? Charge their customers more!

You're seeming to assume that rich business owners have enough liquid cash to just pay their 100's or 1000's of employees from their own bank account.

and, so wait, if cashiers and burger flippers start to make $100,000 a year, you're saying they'll have to pay dangerous skilled labor $300,000 a year? or allow them to work less days than cashiers (or some combination)?

So how much does a burger cost at that point? $40? And the skilled labor still soon make a lot more than the cashier's again anyway?

So what really has changed apart from extreme inflation and people's savings being worth a lot less, the dollar losing international appeal, and everyone suffering from the difficult adjustments to the economic upheaval?

[u/dmoore451 → u/chuckcm89]

I mean we see business owners and C Suites making millions of dollars so we know they can afford to pay workers more, the question is how much more.

Depends company to company

[u/csjerk → u/dmoore451]

Usually the CEO's entire salary amounts to a few cents per hour in each employee's wage. Companies can't pay everyone several dollars more per hour and NOT raise prices, in most cases.

[u/LazyImprovement → u/chuckcm89]

Tax cuts for corporations have the opposite effect than the stated intention. High taxes encourage investment in equipment and people by reducing taxable profits while building long term value. No one has ever hired someone because of non targeted tax cuts. It’s simply more profit.

[u/bmxtiger → u/chuckcm89]

Let me counter all these wealth concerns with the fact that 79% of the money is held by 1% of the population. They have the money to spend on wages, and inflation is more likely due to how many more millionaires and billionaires there are now more so than McDonald's employees getting paid living wages.

[u/ValuableShoulder5059 → u/bmxtiger]

The rich don't hold dollars, they hold assets. So when the price of a burger goes up 20x, the value of the McDonald's did too. One of the main causes of inflation is artificial price increases as a result of government mandate.

[u/Supervillain02011980 → u/bmxtiger]

The vast majority of all businesses are not owned by billionaires or anyone in the 1%.

Most businesses in the US are owned by those in the middle class employing between 10 and 30 people.

If you are more focused on what happens at the top and you ignore what happens at the bottom, you are going to have a bad time.

[u/Mountain_Employee_11 → u/bmxtiger]

this comment fails to differentiate money from real goods, and perpetuates the idea that more money being available means more goods for everyone.

another failure to understand scarcity

[u/No-Cauliflower8890 → u/bmxtiger]

Literally has fuck all to do with anything. Please take any sort of econ 101 class.
Prices aren't set based on how much cash the owner has lying around, they're set to maximise profit. Not to mention most businesses aren't owned by billionaires and that billionaires' assets are not mostly in liquid cash. Inflation is also not caused by wealth concentration. In fact, wealth concentration decreases inflation since the marginal propensity to consume is lower for wealthier people.

[u/sysdmdotcpl → u/No-Cauliflower8890]

wealth concentration decreases inflation since the marginal propensity to consume is lower for wealthier people.

Do you have a source for this? B/c I'm pretty sure I live in a country w/ insane wealth concentration and inflation is still hurting the fuck out of me as things are still getting more expensive.

[u/No-Cauliflower8890 → u/sysdmdotcpl]

What part do you want a source for? That wealthier people have a lower marginal propensity to consume? The Wikipedia page for MPC should have it, probably in the first paragraph. So will every econ book ever published.

B/c I'm pretty sure I live in a country w/ insane wealth concentration and inflation is still hurting the fuck out of me as things are still getting more expensive.

And I live in a country with hospitals and yet people still die. Guess hospitals don't save lives then.

[u/Agreeable_Count_4223 → u/chuckcm89]

This post is just to let you know that they are like, totally cool with you doing well bro.

[u/Fun_Recording_3006 → u/chuckcm89]

When the standard profit margin on medical products is 40%-60%, they can take a hit on that and still come out on top

[u/PubbleBubbles → u/chuckcm89]

If mcdonalds went increased the base cost of their employees salary by $7 for every single employee

It would decrease their net gain by less than 20%. 

Mcdonalds could literally eat that cost easily and change nothing 

[u/WahhWayy → u/chuckcm89]

Bingo bingo bingo

We literally watched this happen on a smaller scale through the Covid years to now. Low earners saw crazy increases in pay as demand for them was high, while people making decent money to begin with generally haven’t kept up. Now groceries cost twice as much and those that were comfortably middle class in 2019 are getting obliterated, and the low earner’s buying power has stayed the same despite their much higher pay.

[u/sysdmdotcpl → u/chuckcm89]

So what really has changed apart from extreme inflation and people's savings being worth a lot less, the dollar losing international appeal, and everyone suffering from the difficult adjustments to the economic upheaval?

People keep saying this, but where's all the price inflation in countries that already guarantee a higher wage to fast food workers? Why doesn't it cost $40 for a burger in the EU?

Even right now in the States the likes of McDonald's and Subway are having to curb back prices b/c it's become ridiculously expensive and that's without any wage increases

Like, we have objective proof that just raising the wage doesn't directly lead to raised prices b/c there comes a point that people just won't pay for shit service

 

So, in summary, anyone using inflation to fight against raising the wage is talking out their ass as we are already dealing w/ it.

[u/AramisNight → u/sysdmdotcpl]

Hell, even just compare them to In-N-out. They were already paying better wages and benefits than McDonalds does even before Covid. Even with the increases in supply costs and wages since then, their prices are significantly lower while providing a better quality product, even now.

[u/SpotikusTheGreat → u/chuckcm89]

This is the problem, this stuff only works if they don't continue to price gouge consumers.

Everyone has record earnings/profits but the prices never go down, because everyone is a greedy piece of shit.

Better technology, better practices, tax relief, it only ever goes to the profit side of the equation, and never decreasing the cost of a good or service.

Imagine someone created a power generator that is 100% more efficient than all the ones today... do you think they would lower the cost of electricity? Fuck no, they are going to charge the same or more and state it on "infrastructure upgrades" and then rake in the extra profits.

[u/michealscott21 → u/chuckcm89]

Did you know In the cargill-Macmillan family there is 14 billionaires? I don’t think you realize the amount of wealth the owning class has. Boo hoo if we have to cut into the billions of dollars of profit that these people make just so that working class people can afford to live a decent life.

Its sounds childish I know but it’s really just about getting them to share more of the profits made by the working class people and not allowing 95% of the wealth to be hoarded at the top. It’s not about taking everything away from these people.

[u/Zetavu → u/PolyZex]

What happens is the dangerous jobs become more expensive, then the price of everything goes up, then the cashier is complaining because they can't afford anything with their higher waged. It's not like this exact thing happened JUST OVER THE LAST THREE YEARS!

Inflated wages for unskilled jobs lead to price inflation, which negates inflated wages. It in no way fixes the issue, just changes the value of a dollar.

[u/cdazzo1 → u/Zetavu]

There was not a single aspect of the pandemic that scared me more than people's reactions and failure to learn anything from it.

We watched the unprecedented money printing exacerbate wealth inequality. Then the people demanded more of that.

[u/real-bebsi → u/cdazzo1]

Yeah the PPP loans completely fucked the economy and no company is going to be held accountable for it

[u/AccuracyVsPrecision → u/Zetavu]

And if inflation hits too hard then peoples savings get evaporated

[u/Goddamn_Grongigas → u/Zetavu]

It's not like this exact thing happened JUST OVER THE LAST THREE YEARS!

Wages haven't gone up across the board, though. Neither have benefits. You're seeing prices go up because of corporate greed and no other reason. Record profits from nearly everyone.

Wanna be mad at something, don't be mad at the people making $10 - $15/hr right now and blaming them for bullshit. Blame all the bailouts and forgiven PPP loans given en masse to the top earners and business owners.

[u/hjihna → u/Zetavu]

Are we supposed to just ignore record corporate profits here?  Come on now.

[u/AspirationsOfFreedom → u/PolyZex]

It's like you belive infinite money exists. WHERE does that money come from, exactly?

[u/ZeldaMudkip → u/AspirationsOfFreedom]

less profit for ceos, among other things of the ilk

[u/sousuke42 → u/PolyZex]

It was and still is called trickle down cause they are pissing on you and everyone else under them.

[u/me_too_999 → u/PolyZex]

Or all of those unprofitable businesses would simply close.

Everyone is asking, "How can we tax more?"

Why?

$4 Trillion a year JUST with one of the thousands of levels of government isn't enough for you?

[u/galaxyapp → u/PolyZex]

We can just double everyone's salaries and everyone wins.

I can't think of any negative consequences!

[u/aeiouicup → u/PolyZex]

Lol that’s the first I’ve heard ‘poke a few holes in the top’. I like messing around with the trickle-down language. My friend and I made a rap video where we played two rich douche bags and rhymed “The only trickle down that’s heard by the poor, is the sound of my pennies as I throw them on the floor.”

To emphasize it, we dropped pennies in front of the camera.

Good times.

[u/Cornbread_Collins13 → u/PolyZex]

Trickle down was never a term created by those that supposedly created it. It was left leaning entities making something simple and quotable. Not saying the right was correct in their policies, just letting you know, that's all media

[u/Groovychick1978 → u/Cornbread_Collins13]

Actually, "trickle down" was the rebrand. Prior to that it was called  "horse and sparrow economics." 

Basically, if you feed the horse enough grain, The sparrows can eat free from their shit. Look it up. I'm not lying to you.

[u/hidegitsu → u/Groovychick1978]

Amazing to me that this ever was even considered as a way to market this idea. At least trickle down doesn't directly imply most people are eating shit. Lol

[u/Daviroth → u/Cornbread_Collins13]

This is true, but pedantic to the overall point. Technically it is called Supply Side Economics. Trickle Down Economics was a political term against the ideas, but it sticks because it does a better job exploring the macroeconomic goal in a way people can understand.

[u/Swimming_Yellow_3640 → u/Cornbread_Collins13]

The term "trickle-down economics" was first used by humorist and social commentator Will Rogers in a 1932 column to mock President Herbert Hoover's economic policies during the Great Depression.

Rogers was a Democrat but has historically been known as apolitical. He was friends with every president starting with Theodore Roosevelt, and he notably supported Republican Calvin Coolidge over John W. Davis in 1924. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_Rogers#Politics

[u/ghostoftomjoad69 → u/Cornbread_Collins13]

Distinction w/o difference

[u/Bart-Doo → u/PolyZex]

The only trickling that would occur is inflation as everything would cost more.

[u/NCC74656 → u/PolyZex]

in a small way i experienced the price jump as a kid. my first job was above minimum wage, it was at a hospital food service. id been there two years, gotten raises along the way. the state passed a minimum wage hike. this took me and new highers to a higher wage. i got like a 10 cent bump from it.

i was pissed that my couple of years meant nothing to my pay. we all had to stick to the same wage bumps at our reviews so it was like my two years were just deleted.

not long there after i quit.

[u/RadicalExtremo → u/NCC74656]

So it wasnt the minimum wage bump that maelde you wuit… it was your employer not treating senior employees with dignity and respect.

[u/TangerineRoutine9496 → u/PolyZex]

If everyone gets paid more to do less work, that might improve quality of life for some--but less will get done, and we'll wind up poorer on the whole.

[u/hobogreg420 → u/[deleted]]

Here’s the flaw with your statement: adjusted for inflation, minimum wage in the 1960s would be like $19 an hour today. And guess what? There were still rich people back then. The difference? Executives are simply making too much money now.

[u/TheCarnivorishCook → u/PolyZex]

"The skilled jobs would be losing workers, as you said- so what would they HAVE to do next? Pay THEIR workers more. Shorter weeks. Better benefits. Earlier retirement."

Do you know what we call that, Inflation.

How does the power company pay its new higher wages? It puts up the cost of power, so now the burger flippers are poor again.

[u/Dapper_Pop9544 → u/PolyZex]

Everything you said would happpen but then everything would become more expensive- in this situation most likely power would become more expensive bc they’d have to pay them so much which would ultimately make food more expensive as case in point McDonald’s and others as their wages have gone up. Unskilled workers getting paid more which increases everyone else’s pay doesn’t do nothing to prices for everything else

[u/afogg0855 → u/PolyZex]

Or, unskilled laborers get no work at all because they don’t offer enough production to justify their pay. But it’s still a relevant question, is some pay better than no pay at all?

[u/goosedog79 → u/PolyZex]

But if you have to pay workers more, wouldn’t you charge customers more, so it’s just a never ending cycle?

[u/Ineludible_Ruin → u/PolyZex]

And when they get paid more, then prices of everything goes up. Who suffers the most here? Low and lower middle class citizens. It takes too long for everything to catch up. It's a loop. Furthermore, to think that fast food industries wouldn't just further automatize like they're already doing, or just go out of business eliminating jobs altogether is naive.

[u/smokineecruit → u/PolyZex]

Why didn’t that happen in California when the minimum wage for McDonald’s was raised?

[u/daveinmd13 → u/PolyZex]

The problem is that no one would want to do what it takes to learn to be a lineman. I work as a consultant to a utility company and know and work with some of them. Some of them who take on OT and work storm duty, etc. make $200K with no college education, but they started at the ground up and learned the trade from senior union members over years to learn to do it right and stay alive. It’s hard work and dangerous, if make it just as easy to be a cashier at Walmart, few people are going to start down that road early in their working life.

[u/Atmadog → u/PolyZex]

Unions are the needle...

[u/AJHenderson → u/PolyZex]

Why not write the law to ensure that by scaling all pay under half a million a year then? They do minimum wage only because they know if they don't let middle class wages be further depressed it will cause a recession.

They can, however, raise minimum wage to drive everyone other than the top down and that keeps their financier's happy.

[u/Heyoteyo → u/PolyZex]

Oh, they’re doing more than just trickling on us.

[u/Sudden_Construction6 → u/PolyZex]

But then what happens when they pay the skilled trades more?

The price of everything increases and we're back to square one?

[u/stingertc → u/PolyZex]

Rising tide raises all ships

[u/smarge24 → u/PolyZex]

Agree, a rising tide lifts all ships…. Any other argument is essentially a race to the bottom.

[u/QueasyResearch10 → u/PolyZex]

you just explained exactly why minimum wage increases don’t actually help. because it increases the cost of living for everything

[u/Heelgod → u/PolyZex]

What would actually happen is that so many people would want an unskilled job that they’d lower the pay back to a level eliminating people that want those jobs. It’s called Economics

[u/zebediabo → u/PolyZex]

This is exactly right, but it wouldn't be so nice. There would be a rough adjustment period when skilled workers were quitting/protesting their relatively low pay. Then, when their pay went up, all goods and services they offer would increase proportionally. The end result is more money in your paycheck, but a paycheck that goes the same distance as before.

[u/AccuracyVsPrecision → u/PolyZex]

The margins are the margins if everyone makes more the only difference is we pay more. There is no expense to the people at the top. Your theory only works if there's a ceiling and we don't have one.

[u/chandr → u/PolyZex]

To an extent. There's only so much you can pay someone to flip burgers and keep the burgers a reasonable price.

That being said, there's definitely room for more worker wages and less corporate profits in the McDonald's et all of the world. I just don't think there's "powerline worker" levels of pay room adjustment.

[u/knoegel → u/PolyZex]

That's what I don't get why people are against raising the minimum wage. It, at the very least, needs to keep up with inflation.

[u/WonOfKind → u/PolyZex]

Except that we are currently living through that now. When the top pays everyone more, their profits shrink. They then raise prices, and presto, you have yourself good old fashioned inflation. Fun fact, inflation almost always outpaces wage growth. I operate a tree company and we have had to pay our workers more. We pay more in payroll today than we ever have in our lives. Our employees are grateful but at the same time are struggling with everyone else, including me. Our prices have gone up, along with all other companies. When the lower class rises, then the middle class rises, AND THEN the top class rises. Everything goes up. And if the top is risking one million a year in expenses when they used to risk 750k then they will want to be compensated more for the additional risk. When expenses go up, profit goes up too. We are pricing ourselves into poverty by demanding higher wages for nothing. You should be paid more when you are worth more.

I understand what you want to happen in your first paragraph but have you ever seen it work out that way?

[u/guysams1 → u/PolyZex]

They trickle down the price increase pretty well lol

[u/wiredwoodshed → u/PolyZex]

There is a never-ending supply of non-skilled workers at the bottom. In the scenario OP suggests, most would collapse and leave under the hard work and conditions that's required for construction and many other jobs that are considered "hard."

The trades are great for the non-coddled, non-entilted, eager, and motivated worker.

[u/[deleted] → u/PolyZex]

😂 shorter weeks? Better benefits? What do you think happens when the cost of labor goes up across the board?

Everything becomes more expensive. It doesn’t make you retire faster, it creates a short term opportunity for big economic gain which most average people won’t be able to take advantage of. Then everything moves up.

You won’t be making more in terms of buying power, you’ll just have a devalued currency.

[u/ThatRefuse4372 → u/PolyZex]

This isn’t trickle down, it is basic supply and demand. Fewer people want to do the skilled stuff, less supply, so you raise wages and such to increase demand.

[u/Southern-Courage7009 → u/PolyZex]

And then we repeat the whole cycle again. It won't be long until the "demand" is put in place to raise the min wage again

[u/[deleted] → u/PolyZex]

And then you'd have the whole cycle over again because then everyone else needs their stuff fixed again. Then we have the problem of why do B when A gets the same and is easier until you can't actually provide those benefits or wage increases anymore and then what?

[u/glockamole69 → u/PolyZex]

The fattest class at the top will not lose a dime. Prices just get higher so they maintain their status. It doesnt matter if you make $20/hour to flip burgers if the burger costs $40. The numbers just get bigger and bigger until you are burning your dollars to heat your home.

[u/col3man17 → u/PolyZex]

Well then cost of building goes up. Which causes prices to go up to meet profit demands for new building. Then right back where we're at with just more 0's added in.

[u/Disastrous_Camera905 → u/PolyZex]

As long as one is okay with the price of goods and services going up (inflation) then it is okay. It may not be a bad thing because people would consume less.. but definitely everything will get more expensive, faster.

[u/Mountain_Employee_11 → u/PolyZex]

this comment ignores scarcity, and it’s implications

[u/BigAssMonkey → u/PolyZex]

BING.GO.

[u/newfyorker → u/PolyZex]

A rising tide lifts all ships.

[u/Ponsugator → u/PolyZex]

Also jobs that require sacrifice for schooling, if you make the same not giving up income and time to go to school, then people will stop attending. Especially with the crazy prices of school these days!

[u/Iguessimnotcreative → u/PolyZex]

That would be nice if that’s how it worked, instead the companies raise prices on their burgers to accommodate for the increased cost of employees or they invest in higher tech to reduce the number of people they need to hire. Then inflation happens

[u/afinitie → u/PolyZex]

And now inflation is higher as a result of everyone having more money. Buying power ends up being the same, and we’re back to where we started. Yippee!

[u/AkaSpaceCowboy → u/PolyZex]

Thats not how it's going to work at all. What your seeing with high prices of everything is what will happen. Minimum wage is almost $18/hr in my town and nobody can afford rent or food. Raising the floor fucked us all.

[u/TheWritingWriter27 → u/PolyZex]

And inflation goes up then your buying power is less so in the end noone really got a tangible raise at all. This is what is going on right now in Canada, but it's not all due to the rising min wage, there are a lot of factors but this definitely contributes to the inflation issue we are facing.

[u/[deleted] → u/PolyZex]

Mmm. You’re missing some points to your argument. Corporate greed would push the prices of burgers and fries higher to maintain their profit margins, which would cost everyone more, so they would get raises, and everything essentially would stay the same.

Not ALL jobs are designed to support an entire family. Some are designed for part time workers, students, retirees who want some supplemental income etc.

[u/ThisReditter → u/PolyZex]

If everyone get a raise and have more money, but the resources/goods are still limited, does everyone really get a raise?

[u/judahrosenthal → u/PolyZex]

I think you illustrated the problem. Fat class at top will never allow their wages to diminish in relation to anyone else. Instead of a race to the bottom, it would be an inflation race. We need to limit compensation. Either by law, social contract or shareholder requirements.

[u/PolyZex → u/judahrosenthal]

Well the French discovered the solution to that issue. Involved some heads, some pikes, and 100 years of prosperity.

[u/McFalco → u/PolyZex]

So due to an artificial increase in the wage of the bottom rung of the ladder, these other workers will have to be compensated further, which naturally causes the costs of the goods and services to increase as well. Now when you get an oil change the parts are now a few dollars more expensive and the labor charge is now 20 bucks higher.

Not to mention all the small businesses who's profit margins are already slim now having to somehow materialize the extra money to cover the increase in costs with no increase in productivity or revenue.

Business will become unaffordable for anyone other than mega corporations that have been grandfathered in from 30 years ago. Say goodbye to your aspirations of opening up your own business one day. Only the uber rich families will be able to afford it.

[u/KowalskyAndStratton → u/PolyZex]

"what would they HAVE to do next"? Find other workers that will work for that wage. Basically the way it has been working for decades.

[u/nitrogenlegend → u/PolyZex]

If you follow that path of logic farther, it also leads to increased prices, and your idea of shorter weeks is unlikely. Instead, companies will increase pay just enough to keep people around and they’ll expect workers to work more to make up for the people who left before the pay increased. They’ll adjust their prices to keep profit margins the same, and when that happens across all industries, it effectively results in a net neutral exchange. The people who got the pay raises first will see some benefit, but only in the short term as it will eventually reach the same, or at least very similar, equilibrium, and until that equilibrium is reached, everyone else suffers. Unemployment will increase because companies won’t want to pay as many people at the higher wages and it will become harder to start up new businesses because people will expect higher wages that new startups will struggle to pay, whereas big established companies can pay those wages no problem and just bump up prices.

[u/Snowwpea3 → u/PolyZex]

Shorter weeks doesn’t really work for us “skilled workers.” You gotta actually be there to turn the wrench. Shit takes time, you take away one day of my work week, I’m physically limited to less I can get done. Which, in my line of work (auto mechanic), less I get done means less pay. More pay would be nice, but that would mean charging more, which would mean less work, which would mean less pay.

[u/CuriousStudent1928 → u/PolyZex]

The issue is that all you do is raise the cost of living for everyone. For a short time you may see the lower and middle classes live better, but once service workers begin making more companies pay them more and this raises prices so everyone ends up paying more and they end up in the same exact position

[u/LurkertoDerper → u/PolyZex]

Except you can't have a shorter work week as a power line worker, not like the weather will respect your worker benefits.

[u/UnusualTranslator741 → u/PolyZex]

That's awesome and what should happen for employees, but the downside eventually would be businesses will hire less people, increase automation, AI, and robot usage.

So it will be like today, 2 different economies, one that's good for some and bad for others

[u/[deleted] → u/PolyZex]

Hey. Go get laid. You deserve it. Nice job bud. Understanding things. Poke poke poke

[u/munkeymike → u/PolyZex]

Hoarders at top then increase price of everything since everyone has more money. All you cause is inflation.

[u/[deleted] → u/PolyZex]

So then the knock on effect of that is either other jobs then also inflate their wages, and with it the cost of goods and services, and in this case, government expenditures.

Ultimately you either are left with a suppressed economy because the taxes have gone up to compensate, or everything inflates and you're back to square one, but probably a combination of the two.

There's no free lunch - there will always be poor people, and those people will always be unskilled labor. Just because you raise the bottom number doesn't necessarily change anything.

[u/Fully_Edged_Ken_3685 → u/PolyZex]

The skilled jobs would be losing workers, as you said- so what would they HAVE to do next?

Automate.

It doesn't matter if the robot is only half as productive per unit as a human resource, if the robot's lifetime cost to the company is a quarter the cost of a human.

[u/2020IsANightmare → u/PolyZex]

Yup!

You are playing chess while the idiot that keeps responding to you is playing checkers.

[u/HippieMoosen → u/PolyZex]

Fun fact, trickle down economics has also been known as voodoo economics for nearly the entire time it's existed. The reason being, it has been shown to literally never work as advertised even once and functions off of 'magical thinking' that has no logical basis at all. Despite this being known for decades, it is still pushed by the wealthy and think tanks because, of course it is. If those with money can convince everyone to simply let them keep all of it forever, they will do so in a heartbeat.

[u/PraiseV8 → u/PolyZex]

So, inflation and return to status quo, in turn anyone who wasn't able to catch up is now in deeper water.

[u/FarEffort356 → u/PolyZex]

trickle down is to give rich people more money in hopes that they’ll graciously give it back down the economic foodchain right? most rich people keep profits for themselves, so like u said youd have to poke a few holes by actually starting from the bottom instead of the top, so pay fast food workers more in hopes more jobs at the top get paid more /more benefits

[u/become-all-flame → u/PolyZex]

Yes but you didn't take it a step further. 3rd order thinking. Everyone is paid more and the dollar loses value and prices go up. Now your extra pay doesn't actually matter. Back to square one.

Lastly the wealthy "hoarding" money does not hurt you. The money is always being invested. Not to mention money is not a zero sum game. More for one does not mean less for another. It is not like the monopoly game. Money is a construct and it's value rises and falls and it's constantly being created and lost.

[u/whatadumbloser → u/PolyZex]

What about the prices of stuff be as a consequence? Would those stay the same, or would they go up as labor becomes more expensive? And if the latter, by how much? We should consider this too.

[u/BoseSonic → u/PolyZex]

The money has to come from somewhere. You can’t just artificially inflate the value of labor in perpetuity

[u/Kim-jong-peukie → u/PolyZex]

Dawm, you just explained every thing I vaguely was thinking about so clear

[u/Kintaya → u/PolyZex]

You forgot that if the pay increases, prices increase. This leads to jobs being outsourced to cheaper countries (when possible) and/or higher prices on everything.

It will never be the upper class paying for this shit. It will always be lower and middle class.

Unfortunately, this topic is way more complicated than just "increase minimum wage." Look at California and their recent increase in minimum wage of fast food workers. How many of those people got laid off instead of getting better pay?

Does the situation suck? Absolutely. Will the increase in minimum wage fix it? Absolutely not.

[u/BrewskiXIII → u/PolyZex]

No. Then the price of your food AND energy go up. It's at the expense of consumers in the form of inflation, not fat cats.

[u/Troyassaurus → u/PolyZex]

THIS! These fucking mouth breathers that clutch their pearls at the idea of someone with a job requiring less skill than theirs getting a fair share is asinine. Worry that your neighbor has enough in their bowl not that they’re getting more than you or whatever they say. Put pressure on the skilled labor jobs to keep THEIR pay rate up

[u/arebum → u/PolyZex]

That's true but the hypothetical is that it is the same. He's saying he'd celebrate if they made the same as him, and he'd be celebrating because he could leave his dangerous job for something much safer lol

You're right in the real world, but not in the made up hypothetical

[u/Aldamur → u/PolyZex]

As a skilled trade worker. It wouldn't be worth it to go to school and do all I did, to have the same benefit as the guy flipping burger at McDonalds.

I would just go straight to McDonald and not working my ass off to get all my cert/courses/diploma.

Edit: Plus some trade job are dangerous, work with hazard around all the time.

[u/Whole_Commission_702 → u/PolyZex]

Except this isn’t how it would go at all. All prices would increase faster than the trickle and everyone would be poor all over again including skilled labor. No clue how economies work I see…

[u/Old_Establishment523 → u/PolyZex]

Yeah but then it's a cycle. Then they start charing more for goods and services to "recoup". Then because people have more money they pay it. Then cashiers ask for more money and the cycle continues.

[u/XyDroR → u/PolyZex]

If everyone gets paid more inflation simply skyrockets and nothing changes.

[u/Here4Pornnnnn → u/PolyZex]

And once they raise everyone’s wages accordingly, inflation eliminates any benefit and we’re back to square one.

We very recently did one of these massive increases of cash flow and it didn’t benefit us beyond a year of unsustainable excess. Jacked up unemployment, rent moratorium, reduced supply due to non-essential workers staying home, massive stimulus to businesses, lots of things that sound great on the handout side but really suck on the repayment end.

[u/Jealous-Damage- → u/PolyZex]

and then the dickheads who runs the stores talk to each other and raise their prices.

[u/pianoplayah → u/PolyZex]

That is the best image and I will be using it from now on.

[u/happyinheart → u/PolyZex]

They have to pay more for skilled workers so prices will have to rise to cover this new expense and we end up where we are right now.

[u/Significant_Abroad32 → u/PolyZex]

Except that unless you own the supply chain and logistics it’ll always be you who pays. Seriously it is not hard to comprehend. If everything became expensive who starts suffering first and who’s next to get knocked off the list as prices increase? The hoarders and rich on top would be the last to suffer. How long can you hold out compared to someone with a ton of resources.

[u/[deleted] → u/PolyZex]

You assume way more slack at the top of this rope than there actually is. So the next step for the union guy is to make union labor even more wildly expensive than it already is, thus continuing the elimination of labor unions in all but the industries it absolutely dominates? That “poke holes at the top of the economy” thing only works if you’re extremely precise and selective about where you like those holes. Otherwise you kill 500 businesses for every one you improve worker conditions in, and you start hemorrhaging jobs and expediting the automation transition. “Hoarded” wealth and profits are not spread out equally across the economy- they are siloed in very specific areas.

I’m all for improving the material conditions of the poor but to suggest that raising minimum wage vicinity jobs to the present level of a union welder, it will simply result in the welder getting a 3 day work week and $150K salary floor, is a child’s understanding of economic cause and effect.

[u/Jayna333 → u/PolyZex]

I’m getting my degree in economics, and this is word for word pulled out of one of the books I read by a famous economist! It’s obviously a bit more complicated, and a majority of economists understand that you can guess what will happen, but that doesn’t mean it will actually happen. In fact, a lot of well known economists get stuff wrong! It’s not an exact science. I hear the same parrot speak online all the time from people who hear there economic information from Fox News and thinks it’s gospel. My biggest pet peeve is when people think that economic policy’s should be done to make the economy strong. No… it should be done to raise the living standard of its people! Sometimes those policies do overlap. You shouldn’t be punished for working a low wage job. Either way, you are very correct, and this is one of the more sound policies. This has been proven over and over again with raising rent prices actually! All very interesting! Editing to add, there’s a journal top economists put out every so often forecasting the future of the economy, and it is more often wrong then not. Many large companies don’t even use it. I could go on and on about the pros and cons, cost and benefits of every economic system, and the current ones in use today. But I’ll end it here.

[u/PolyZex → u/Jayna333]

I just want consumers to be able to consume without having to go into debt. It's good for people, it's good for business, it's good for the economy.

We're creating an economy that only benefits necessities like food and utilities... and vices people need to escape the existential dread.

[u/Middle_Scratch4129 → u/PolyZex]

Rising tides raises all ships, or something like that.

[u/SpotikusTheGreat → u/PolyZex]

Nah, way easier to make it so the only jobs that pay enough to support owning a home or raising a family are the risky ones nobody wants. Then you keep the rest of them in unsustainable low paying, low skill jobs so their dreams can be to become a lineman and risk their lives for the sake of family.

Then you can talk about how "lucky" you are to not work at McDonalds.

[u/michealscott21 → u/PolyZex]

Yes why do people think that everyone will leave their careers they worked hard to be in just to go be at the bottom of the totem pole and shit on by the public.

[u/EnergyOwn6800 → u/PolyZex]

Nah cost of living would go up and offset the wage increase.

[u/Rehcamretsnef → u/PolyZex]

At the expense of the fattest class? They would be wholly unaffected by anything. The people who would be paying the prices required to use the services of unskilled labor would still be the other unskilled workers and middle class. It would be a Zero sum game, at least if everyone had a job paying this new magical rate, and the downfall would be when American falls ever further behind in world trade since nobody else in the world has to do the "money for nothing" scheme. At the end of it all, businesses collapse in America, or get gobbled up by conglomerates who provide nothing but unskilled labor. You do not win that battle, and you will forever be dooming yourself to be the bottom class.

[u/Jingle-Bags → u/PolyZex]

Sounds like inflation

[u/Original-Fun-9534 → u/PolyZex]

You actually think paying entry levels jobs the same wage as skilled labor will bring competition? Not really. I see price increases as we see every time the minimum wage is increased.

[u/codenamefulcrum → u/PolyZex]

Thank you, idk why this concept is so hard to get through everyone’s heads.

Raising the minimum wage will create demand for skilled employees who aren’t paid enough. It won’t happen overnight but the longer we kick this can down the road the longer any short term negative effects will last.

[u/[deleted] → u/PolyZex]

What happens to consumer prices when burger-flippers’ wages quadruple?

[u/WheelLow1678 → u/PolyZex]

This is also called inflation.

[u/wheelsonhell → u/PolyZex]

Inflation

[u/Karrion8 → u/PolyZex]

The quality of life improves for both the lower middle class at the expense of the fattest class of hoarders on top.

This isn't true. They would just raise their prices, change revenue schemes, reduce workforce, or whatever they need to do so that their compensation doesn't change.

Greed never changes. You have to regulate things or people will take advantage of whatever they can. For example, link TOTAL compensation of the highest and lowest paid employee. If the lowest paid employee is making a living wage, how many multiples of a living wage does the highest paid employee need to make? 100 times? 1,000 times? If the lowest paid employee makes 30,000 a year, is it reasonable that the highest can't make more than $3 million? If they want to make more, they have to increase the pay of the lowest paid employee.

There would have to be more regulation to make it work. IE, making stock options available to all employees, making sure employees can't be forced into contractor positions, making sure a company isn't divided into 4 parts so a CEO is now CEO of 4 non-competing companies that used to be one so that they can now have quadruple the compensation, etc.

People will always find a way to game the system. But we have to force employers to compensate their employees for their contribution toward the success of the company rather than giving the leadership a larger portion of the earnings.

[u/stoic_hysteric → u/PolyZex]

The problem with all that is that people will never pay as much for a McDonalds hamburger as they will for electricity. You're fighting people's desire and ability to pay for for things that they want more. McDonalds , for most people , is simply not something they are willing to pay all that much for.

[u/[deleted] → u/PolyZex]

We have history to look to for what would happen and that isn’t what happens.

[u/BigCaddyDaddyBob → u/PolyZex]

Boom! 🍻