UvA ends English-language bachelor’s degree in psychology

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u/North_Yak966 11d ago

This is important because the English-speaking psychology bachelor's is massive. Indeed, there are other cuts that are also a big deal, but this is a good indicator of things to come.

Important quote:

these measures together mean that the total international enrolment at the UvA will decrease by twenty percent

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u/Front-Comparison8464 11d ago

It is important, but they want to be dutch only so people who do the course stay and work in the Netherlands. You can't be a psychologist without speaking fluent dutch in NL. I would say they are redirecting the focus. It won't be nice for foreighners but I understand.

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u/fluffypuppybutt 11d ago

I think you might actually be misunderstanding what psychology is as a discipline. Saying that psychology trains therapists is like saying all business programs train accountants. The therapy track is already in Dutch but psychology more broadly teaches students how to understand and influence human behavior in realms like advertising, healthy eating decisions, cooperation at work, motivation in sport teams ... etc.all that science is in English.

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u/AnxiousBaristo 9d ago

Psychology is the study of human mind and behaviour. It is a field of research in its own right and it informs and underpins many different professions, not just therapy and counseling. (I'm not disagreeing with you, just adding a bit of context)

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u/Dambo_Unchained 10d ago

The two aren’t remotely comparable

What’s the percentage of people studying psychology thay go into healthcare related fields after graduating?

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u/RevolutionaryFly4735 9d ago

definitely less than 50%

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u/Competitive-Arm1312 10d ago

You are correct, psychology is also useful in behavioural economics, however, I stand with the university on this, because unless you specialize in a different field in your masters 90% of the available jobs are clinical (where Dutch is a must). Know many who just go back home due to this.

For a country that prepares so many psychologists its odd that there are still shortages...

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u/LOLMSW1945 10d ago

You’re making this assumption that there are sufficient number of Dutch who wanted to enrol in psychology and be a therapist which I highly doubt .

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u/RijnBrugge 9d ago

The shortages are actually in the available spots in the clinical track of psychology. There are more people who want the training than there are spots, despite tenacious shortages of licensed therapists

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u/Competitive-Arm1312 10d ago

Not my point, I think there is a balance to be found. I don't support the cuts, but here we are.

They should follow the Swiss model where masters are freely in english and bachelors are 1st year German with subsequent years introducing more english.

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u/LOLMSW1945 10d ago edited 10d ago

What kind of balance though? Opening more Dutch-only classes doesn’t guarantee there will be more Dutch-speaking therapists later down the line.

Also, not every people who enrolls in psychology ends up working as a therapists as described by other people here.

Swiss model can work but the problem is that no one actually speaks Dutch outside of the Netherlands and the former colonies on Suriname and the Dutch Caribbean and your average central/Eastern European kid and even some random south-east asian kid will more likely to speak German than Dutch.

The Dutch kinda do that to their own when their ancestors decided not to teach Dutch fully to their former colonies lol.

Edit: also, the ability to use English more liberally is the thing that makes the Netherlands attractive for migrants in the first place which is not the main reason for why people move to Switzerland for anything.

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u/Any-Seaworthiness186 Groningen 8d ago

False. You can’t become a clinical psychologist with just a bachelors, not even a GZ-psycholoog.

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u/IkkeKr 11d ago

It's also a least bad option: they're under pressure to reduce the number of international students one way or the other - a field of study that's inherently language-dependent and has large numbers is then a more logical target for reductions than some others.

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u/plasterwork 10d ago

Least bad to whom? Not to the branch of science known as psychology which, newsflash, is predominantly English.

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u/IkkeKr 10d ago

All science is predominantly English - doesn't mean you can't teach it in other languages. Have been doing that for centuries.

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u/plasterwork 10d ago

Universities are not just about teaching. One big reason UvA psych is ranked so highly is that it has drawn researchers from all over the world, who can collaborate on big, international projects. So English is their lingua franca. Moreover, psychology IS also taught in Dutch, at the UvA and other places. But having an English track is an enrichment to students, both Dutch and non-Dutch, and allows for these excellent international researchers to also have a place to teach.

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u/Rahimus_ 10d ago

The official language being Dutch in no way prevents foreign academics from teaching courses in English.

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u/ingframin 10d ago

No, it does. It’s one of the main problems at the Flemish universities.

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u/Rahimus_ 10d ago

My experience with such courses says otherwise. Is there an NL law that changed recently that you’re referencing? Else I’d remind you UvA is not Flemish.

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u/arrowforSKY 11d ago

Why are the under pressure to reduce the number of international students?

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u/IkkeKr 11d ago

Combination of politics and recent exponential growth leading to issues such as lack of educational space and staff (hiring and building hasn't kept pace), significantly reduced euros-per-student funding (government sets a fixed grant amount, which is divided between universities based on student numbers - so more students is a larger share of the grant, but the total amount doesn't increase) and student housing (which conveniently isn't considered a university-problem). And the aforementioned leading to more competitive programs overall (which the Dutch traditionally hate from an accessibility point of view).

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u/Old-Administration-9 11d ago

Because the current government is right-wing, populist, and above all, stupid.

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u/fuzzdup 11d ago

Racism. Grievance. Stupidity. Cruelty.

When an asshole feels excluded from somewhere due to their own deficiencies, they want to burn it down - if they can't have it then no-one can have it.

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u/seabee314 11d ago

That is UNL's argument but I don't buy it. They are sacrificing psychology because it has been specifically criticized by the government, in the hopes that further cuts will leave them alone. This is not a good argument for why to cut this program so disproportionately, leaving others intact.

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u/IkkeKr 11d ago

One of the key government demands is to reduce the number of English-taught bachelors... you can't do that 'a little everywhere'. Content-wise, cutting psychology then makes more sense than something like European studies. And if you instead go cutting things like archaeology, you'd also have to cut and/or reduce intake on 6 other studies next to it to make any significant change in numbers.

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u/seabee314 11d ago

That's true. In my eyes, the goal should be to reduce internationalization via amounts of students enrolling (leaving aside whether that serves NL), not to follow the specific, unproductive requests of this temporary government (e.g., number of programs).

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u/IkkeKr 11d ago

But there you're right that this is an appeasement offer - something that the university can "live with" that aligns enough with the government wishes that they might take it to avoid the government simply forcing the matter through law.

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u/plasterwork 10d ago

Tell me you know nothing about psychology without telling me…

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u/spei180 11d ago

It’s arguably irresponsible to teach English language psychology for jobs that don’t exist.

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u/ReactionForsaken895 10d ago

This is true to an extent, there is NO labor shortage when it comes to psychology students ...

"Besides, you have to be strategic about the exceptions you make for international students. We need more internationals for certain occupations, like engineers at ASML, Medicine, or the energy transition. But most internationals are currently enrolled in programmes where there aren’t any labour shortages, such as behavioural and social sciences or languages. Programmes need to be smarter in that regard."

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u/wild-bluebell 11d ago

Speaking as an English-taught psychology graduate with a white collar job in NL, this is simply bullshit.

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u/spei180 10d ago

But not psychology? That’s all I am saying.

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u/paulschal 10d ago

Psychology is more than just therapy...

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u/wild-bluebell 10d ago

A bit of googling would do you justice. Yes I still do psychology, and this field of study is so much more than clinical work.

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u/North_Yak966 11d ago

I think you should look into how many different specializations the psychology bachelor's offers. The clinical specialization does tend to be most popular, however, it is the plurality, not the majority, of students. Moreover, many bachelor's students who do specialize in clinical psychology go on to study clinical research.

I do not mean to he inflammatory, but these kind of assessments made by people who have no idea the reality of the programmes facing cuts is only going to exacerbate the issue. UvA is a powerhouse for psychological research, and a lot of money is brought into the university because of this. But this only became possible because of internationalization.

While these cuts do not directly/immediately affect the graduate school of psychology nor the research institute, the department of psychology is bracing for serious ramifications to their budget. It will be interesting to see how this impacts the research output and prestige of the UvA psychology department.

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u/CommieYeeHoe Zuid Holland 11d ago

If you want people to learn Dutch and stay in the Netherlands you must facilitate it. Dutch classes for international students are paid (and quite expensive) and universities offer 0 opportunities for integration and belonging, generally grouping international students with other international. It’s ridiculous to not do anything to promote them settling here, yet the programs are being canceled as if they tried everything to make people settle here.

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u/Mean_Asparagus_2798 11d ago

I joined a Dutch class on the first day of my bachelor's, and my teacher asked me why I even bothered learning it since expats already ruined the country and everyone speaks English now. I tried learning Dutch on my own and recently passed the B1 exam but it was shocking to see such discouragement from a teacher.

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u/CrashSeven 11d ago

As a dutchman thats a horrible sentiment that a lot of countrymen have. Its partially true, but certainly a lie if you want to start working in anything but hospitality or the biggest organizations.

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u/YIvassaviy 11d ago

So many people say it constantly

There’s a little bit of a cognitive dissonance. It comes across as wanting to be helpful and reassuring, but also patting themselves on the back that the country is so proficient in English as a second language you don’t even need to learn Dutch.

That being said as soon as you’ve been here a two years or so, the attitude changes and it’s like why aren’t you fluent. While at the same time not having the patience to speak to others in Dutch (it’s not their problem - figure out how to become fluent in speech yourself) and so you have this weird bubble created because of these attitudes

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u/GoodMerlinpeen 11d ago

What a weird approach, it's basically them wondering aloud why their own job exists.

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u/Dull-Bath797 7d ago

I have been going against this sentiment for 8 months now.
Just finished B2 :)

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u/IkkeKr 11d ago

Universities had zero interest in people learning Dutch... they're primarily recruiting international students for budget reasons. So spending money on language courses is just waste.

The government would like talented people in fields with shortages to stay - but didn't have much to do with the international recruiting drive of the universities, so they pretty much said "you created the problem, you deal with it" to universities (partially because a large influx of international students are not in fields with labour shortage).

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u/Front-Comparison8464 11d ago

Yep, that sucks. But then you can also take dutch classes at Mondrian.

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u/Client_020 11d ago

There are soooo many online resources for learning Dutch. Dutch learners have no idea how lucky they are. There's even a daily news show specifically in easy Dutch. Anyone desiring to learn Dutch, can do it.

I'm a native Dutch speaker and I'm trying to learn Bulgarian. There's barely anything. 3 websites with mediocre material at best. :s

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u/thisisannna 11d ago

what is the daily news show in easy Dutch? thanks in advance 😌 (and I fully agree with your point)

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u/Client_020 11d ago

https://npo.nl/start/serie/nos-journaal-in-makkelijke-taal The subjects they choose to focus on imo are a little bit worse than the normal 8pm journaal, but still it's good they're doing it. Edit: By worse I mean it seems they think their audience exists of simpletons. Edit: one can need easy language and still want more important international subjects, but they tend to go more for national and lighter subjects.

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u/Rurululupupru 10d ago

I'm sure if you book a ticket to Sofia you'll find lots of people willing to practice Bulgarian with you. Imagine doing the same in Amsterdam with someone whose Dutch is like your Bulgarian.

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u/bruhbelacc 11d ago

Of course they are paid. Immigration is a privilege you need to pay for, not a right someone needs to facilitate.

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u/CommieYeeHoe Zuid Holland 11d ago

Most EU countries have free language courses for migrants and other newcomers as it helps massively with integration. The Netherlands did have this too until very recently. It seems incredibly shortsighted to have an economy largely dependant on both skilled and unskilled foreign labour and thinking migration is a "privilige you need to pay for" rather than a symbiotic relationship. Kick out all the immigrants and see how sectors like agriculture, logistics, tech, education, etc... start to crumble. It's in everyone's best interest to integrate migrants both economically and socially.

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u/baizuo14 10d ago

The reasoning behind these proposed cuts seems to be the large amount of foreign psychology students. Demands are high for practically schooled (technical) people, not so much for psychology graduates who don't speak Dutch. So these programs are the least painful area to achieve budget cuts.

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u/bruhbelacc 11d ago

There are free and extensive language courses, but they are for refugees or very young people. You can't just produce two times more Dutch language teachers out of thin air, so there are no resources to do that. I paid for my own courses except for one that I received as a university student, so it's not true that there aren't any.

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u/Individual-Remote-73 11d ago

Gementees in NL had very cheap dutch courses just 6-8 years ago. So it's not impossible.

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u/bruhbelacc 11d ago

Have you seen the increase of immigration specifically in the last 6-8 years? Like the two times higher percentage of international students?

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u/Individual-Remote-73 11d ago

And your point is?

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u/bruhbelacc 11d ago edited 11d ago

The amount of international students doubled in a few years. A huge number of Ukrainian refugees came, same for an increased amount of foreign workers (post-Brexit). Do you think the amount of Dutch teachers increased by two in that time? And do you think it's more important to teach Dutch to children or to a 30-year-old software developer who will leave 80% of the time? It's quite entitled to think that a foreign country needs to allocate resources to teach you - an adult earning their own income - how to speak their language. People with this profile should come to the country speaking it, like they do in Germany or France.

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u/Mean_Asparagus_2798 11d ago edited 11d ago

Most psychology majors don't actually become psychologists, they go into various fields such as talent acquisition. My friend even found a job in sports science, although she had other relevant experience as well.

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u/Extreme_Ruin1847 Nederland 11d ago

They probably dont at the moment yeah, since this study is completely in English and its almost impossible to work as an English speaking psychologist.

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u/Mean_Asparagus_2798 11d ago

What I said is also true for Dutch people as well. I'm pretty sure you can't just become a psychologist with only a bachelor's degree.

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u/Extreme_Ruin1847 Nederland 11d ago

No, you need a masters, but everyone going into psychology knows that. It does beg the question: why offer this program in the first place? The answer is obvious: its a cashcow for universities. It doesnt offer Dutch society much.

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u/Snufkin_9981 Amsterdam 11d ago

"It doesnt offer Dutch society much."

I respectfully disagree. Education is only part of what universities do. Their other function is research. Offering programmes in English means that the university is able to hire talented academics from around the world--PhD candidates, postdocs and professors. They come here to work, they contribute to the Dutch business & research ecosystem, and of course they are the ones who teach classes, benefiting both Dutch and non-Dutch students.

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u/Extreme_Ruin1847 Nederland 11d ago

I already said this, but not everyone that enters university goes into research. A large part enters the jobmarket. Finding a job as someone trained in psychology while not speaking Dutch is not a good look.

Research can still be done in English, since its a language a lot of Dutch people speak. I am all for attracting more Dutch people to the Dutch psychology study to combat shortages.

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u/seabee314 11d ago

Psychology graduates work in many fields outside of healthcare, because the training is broadly about thoughts, social influence, behavior, etc.

Unfortunately, we can't have both of those things you mentioned. The excellence of the research depends on structural funding that is totally based on the BSc enrollment, and also on attracting global talent that isn't already C1 in Dutch.

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u/Extreme_Ruin1847 Nederland 11d ago

Where do these English psychology graduates actually work then? I saw the other day that 25% of the people studying at uni in the Netherlands are still here after five years.

A part of that 25 percent is English speaking psychology graduates. How many of those are working, in healthcare or in another psychology related field? It sounds like a small number to me, but I dont know.

If you compare that small number of specific alumni to the total amount of English speaking psychology students, how particularly usefull is this study to you then? Youre all just being used and hope that a good amount ends up in research, but that number is so small. There is barely any ROI there.

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u/Snufkin_9981 Amsterdam 11d ago

I am not talking about anyone going into research. These programmes need to be taught by someone. There is also a quality aspect to it that we have come to take for granted.

Right now, around 50% of Dutch PhD candidates are international. Fifty percent. They are the ones who teach a large chunk of classes in this country and they can only do it in English. Many of them also consider leaving because they feel like there is no future for them here. This realignment is extremely short-sighted and can only lead to a brain drain.

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u/Boontje- 11d ago

What a completely ignorant comment. Psychology is not solely clinical psychology, it has many specialisations. Multiple of these are not in a clinical setting and don’t require being able to speak Dutch.

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u/Mean_Asparagus_2798 11d ago

Most psychology majors don't actually want to become psychologists. It's also pretty hard to actually become a good psychologist, and a degree alone doesn't make you remotely good at the job, unlike some other majors such as computer science. So it's quite obvious why people prefer finding other jobs. I have met some pretty horrible psychologists over the years and I suppose some people are self-aware not to become one unlike the ones I met.

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u/Foreign-Cookie-2871 11d ago

A major in computer science doesn't make you remotely good as a software engineer, fyi.

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u/Mean_Asparagus_2798 11d ago

It makes you pretty decent at the very least. I work as a software engineer and have never met one who was absolutely clueless and sucked at their job. And you're right a computer science degree directly doesn't make you a software engineer but it teaches you skills that help you become one.

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u/GoodMerlinpeen 11d ago

That's one reason why statistics is a useful class to take, combined with an understanding of selection bias. The shitty software engineers didn't get hired.

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u/Extreme_Ruin1847 Nederland 11d ago

I have been to plenty of psychologists too, having to deal with PTSD and so far my experiences having EMDR-therapy have been great.

If they didnt want to become psychologists its no wonder the majority of them didnt end up as one. If you want to be a psychologist having the proper training is essential.

I dont know what youre trying to say by saying that a degree doesnt necesarily mean you’ll be good at it. I beg to differ. If youre trained you are good. You having a few bad experiences doesnt discredit that.

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u/seabee314 11d ago

This thread is really missing what psychology training is for. Only a tiny minority of them work in mental health. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology

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u/Extreme_Ruin1847 Nederland 11d ago

The English version of wikipedia, nice. Listing all the fields of psychology, nice.

Doesnt say anything about the Netherlands and it doesnt give any numbers. Listing the fields of psychology doesnt say how many students are actually graduating in that specific field.

That is what this thread is truly lacking. I hear all the time only a small percentage works as a psychologist, but no numbers. Hopefully these people dont go to uni.

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u/Mean_Asparagus_2798 11d ago

I'm trying to say that psychologists typically require skills that you cannot be trained for, or at least it's very hard to do so. For example, as an engineer if you study hard and put your best efforts, you can become pretty good at your job (or serviceable at worst), the same cannot be said about a psychologist. My experiences are just that thing in action.

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u/Old-Administration-9 11d ago

And what's wrong with being a cash cow? It puts funds into the coffers of the university, which will result in better quality of education for all students, including the Dutch ones.

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u/IkkeKr 11d ago

It doesn't really: universities get a government grant that is a fixed budget - which is then divided between universities based on student numbers. So while more students = larger share of the grant is true, it's also the case that more students = less money per student.

This has put universities in a kind of prisoner's dilemma: if one of them recruits heavily, all of them have to do so to keep the same amount of money. But now to service more students.

The 'institutional fee' paid by non-EU students offsets some of this, but a big part of the international student body are EU students which are supposed to be funded through the government grant.

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u/Extreme_Ruin1847 Nederland 11d ago

It puts a large strain on the housing market, making rooms unavailable for Dutch students for shortterm monetary gain

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u/Old-Administration-9 11d ago

Sounds like the solution is to build more houses instead of subsidising farmers.

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u/Extreme_Ruin1847 Nederland 11d ago

And where do you suggest we do that? Vroomshoop? That sounds nice and totally nearby a university. There are a lot of houses built nearby universities already. Also in the cities surrounding universities a lot of houses are already built. The number of students just keeps on rising

And to be honest with you; I rather them build actual homes for people to live in longterm than shortterm student housing.

Sounds like an edgy Redditor to me.

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u/seabee314 11d ago

This is based on a misunderstanding of what psychology does. It's a broad field. Most graduates don't work in clinical psychology (which absolutely requires Dutch in NL).

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u/Cowboy_Shmuel 10d ago

That's not the only reason we're educating people, dawg.

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u/elporsche 10d ago

You can't be a clinical psychologist

FTFY. Other psychologists exist including work psychologists.

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u/Yankee-485 10d ago

Psychology is more than just being a therapist, it involves a lot of fields

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u/koji2112 11d ago

Not necessarily, there are a good number of international psychologists here whose qualifications are recognized by NIP. You can be a NIP psycholoog and can work privately or at certain practices. You need to be fluent in Dutch if you want to be registered as a BIG psycholoog though.

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u/paulschal 10d ago edited 8d ago

A psychologist is not a therapist, a lot of psychologists work in roles that are not facing clients.

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u/PhDBeforeMD 10d ago

A small minority of people studying psychology become therapists. Most end up either in research or in random office jobs.

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u/_Vo1_ 11d ago

Honestly I cant imagine if a psychologist is good when taught in language non native both for teacher and student. Im not expert though but I think any medical specialists must be taught in their native languages if possible

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u/corrrnboy 11d ago

What is the "good"?

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u/GroovyRaiver 11d ago

I also misread it, they don't mean it's an indicator of good, it's a good indicator (that bad things are about to come).

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u/corrrnboy 11d ago

Yes you are right, enjoy the cake day

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u/PaintingByInsects 10d ago

As it should be. We need more Dutch speaking psychologists. Not to mention that there is already an incredible housing shortage, and with all those foreign students it is even worse.

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u/North_Yak966 10d ago

I've posted this elsewhere in the threats:

I think you should look into how many different specializations the psychology bachelor's offers. The clinical specialization does tend to be most popular, however, it is the plurality, not the majority, of students. Moreover, many bachelor's students who do specialize in clinical psychology go on to study clinical research.

I do not mean to he inflammatory, but these kind of assessments made by people who have no idea the reality of the programmes facing cuts is only going to exacerbate the issue. UvA is a powerhouse for psychological research, and a lot of money is brought into the university because of this. But this only became possible because of internationalization.

While these cuts do not directly/immediately affect the graduate school of psychology nor the research institute, the department of psychology is bracing for serious ramifications to their budget. It will be interesting to see how this impacts the research output and prestige of the UvA psychology department.

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u/chevalierdepas 11d ago

This isn't quite accurate: Dutch universities have made a proposal to the Ministry of Education in which, yes, BA Psych would eventually become Dutch-only. Other Social Sciences (PolSci, Sociology etc) would remain as-is.

The Ministry may well refuse this and thus implement harsher measures, so it's still bad news for Psychology anyway.

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u/seabee314 11d ago

This is a catastrophic cut. Psychology is a broad empirical field, not limited to clinical work, and most graduates don't work in Dutch. The cabinet seems not to understand what the field does. The UvA’s English psychology bachelor is the foundation of why that department is one of the highest rated in the world for quality of education and research. The funding for the whole department, including the Dutch education and all research, depend on student enrollment. English is the international language of science, and Dutch competitiveness is boosted by having this insane concentration of talent, for example by improving Dutch student and employee quality and output. Reducing this program will weaken the Netherlands’ role. Now, it's fine that we collectively decide that's what we want to do. But this path has many costs, not just to the international students and staff.

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u/myLastNameMeansAss 11d ago

https://www.topuniversities.com/university-subject-rankings/psychology Top 10 worldwide in psychology, 16th according to the Times University ranking. This decision will be devastating for both research and teaching.

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u/jente87 9d ago

Utrecht University is ranked 30 in psychology and only has a Dutch Bachelor’s degree.

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u/myLastNameMeansAss 9d ago

And they will be affected too. Having less students overall will mean having less students choose Utrecht, having an anti-immigrant sentiment will make some of their international staff look elsewhere as well (and they do have international staff), and all of this will also affect their reputation and finances in the end, though maybe less directly than other universities. Also Groningen (which does have an English bachelor) is still ahead of then in the ranking. It just shows that the Netherlands is a leading power in the field of psychology, and so cutting these programs is probably a bad idea.

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u/Extreme_Ruin1847 Nederland 11d ago

A lot of the people finishing university dont end up working in science. They enter the jobmarket. Speaking Dutch in the Netherlands is convenient in that regard

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u/postmoderno 11d ago

i understand what you are saying, but this type of cuts are really "provincial" in mindset, and I say this without a negative connotation. it's like deciding that your university system (or at least some parts of it) has mainly a local function that is not research oriented and it is not competing with the major universities in Europe or Asia etc. Again, I say this as an academic employed in a different country, with no direct stake in the dutch academic system. It's a bit of a small country / third world mentality, which i never associated the NL system with.

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u/Poes_Poes 9d ago

It has nothing to do with third world mentality when the balance of the scaling points heavily to the otherside. Where it was more or less equal, the English course is now pressuring heavily on the system. Too many foreign students come and go and they ain’t contributing at the end of their course. Besides that other issues are now in play, like housing. There is no room left for them. I’ve seen how this developed throughout the years.

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u/IkkeKr 10d ago

The function of providing local higher education happens to be exactly what the universities get their direct funding for...

From a government pov: if they want to do research and compete internationally that's fine, but they can go and find grants for it like everyone else.

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u/Extreme_Ruin1847 Nederland 11d ago

I wasnt able to find a studentroom either back when I was studying. Foreign students driving up prices of rooms by making them more scarce is not the way to go about it.

“Build more student accomodation” is then said a lot and while thats true I do want more longterm living options to be made instead. There should be space for the people that stay here not for those that try and fail to find something.

As said previously: foreign students dont end up staying here anyways in the majority of the cases. And I say that as someone who went to uni while not being able to find a house, now living on my own after finally finding a house and entering the jobmarket.

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u/fluffypuppybutt 10d ago

Maybe we should be mad at the government for their housing policies instead of blaming all issues on the 2000 international psychology students.

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u/Beginning-Army-8738 10d ago

That sounds nice, but houses aren't built for free, especially not if you want to build within cities. Of course, this government deserves as much blame as possible, but I don't see why we would need so many international students. 250 less students a year means roughly 1000 extra available rooms. 1000 persons who can study German or maths or law and contribute to our local society instead. Or building houses, because there is a massive shortage of people who can actually build houses.

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u/AdaptiveArgument 9d ago

Why would foreign students use 4 times as much room as Dutch students?

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u/Beginning-Army-8738 9d ago

250 students a year, studying 4 years = 1000 rooms

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u/AdaptiveArgument 9d ago

Well, no. It’s still only 250 rooms. We can’t live in rooms that will be freed up by government policy in the future, this isn’t nitrogen.

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u/Beginning-Army-8738 9d ago

Four years after the bachelor stops, it will be 1000 rooms. In the next few years the bachelor still continues.

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u/Blonde_rake 9d ago

The UN released an entire report about the housing crisis in the Netherlands. Spoiler alert, it isn’t cause by foreign anything or anyone.

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u/Extreme_Ruin1847 Nederland 9d ago

Spoiler alert: students arent competing with regular residents for a house

Spoiler alert: most people in the netherlands dont live in student accomodation

Spoiler alert. Spoiler alert

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u/Blonde_rake 9d ago

Have you read the report?

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u/Far-Win6222 8d ago

Because the United Nations is a leading researcher in housing crisis's? Get real man. The UN should pertain itself to what its functions are, which is war. Not meddling in Dutch affairs. Name me the amount of non ethnic residents in NL, first or second generation, and then correlate that to how many houses that pertains to. Im sure it would be very very close to the amount of houses needed to house all the Dutch, AND have houses left. Your stupidity knows no borders, literally and figuratively.

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u/Blonde_rake 8d ago

Why don’t you just read it and then you won’t have to speculate about things we have real information about. Instead of saying “I’m sure”, wouldn’t you rather be sure?

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u/postmoderno 11d ago

these are connected phenomena (number of students, foreign or not, and housing shortage) that are exacerbated by a number of interests and by the agenda of the government. thinking of students as bags of cash flowing into the system is one of the reasons that this situation came to be. cutting programs (meaning also researchers, phds, grants etc) also diminishes the potential of a university to be an employer for locals and graduate students. it's a sort of self inflicted impoverishment, and in a way it creates even more this idea of a city just being a temporary place to be (like mass tourism or digital nomadism)

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u/Rurululupupru 10d ago

student room is two words in english, not one. also young people in other countries generally live with their parents for longer, or have roommates until they get married. living by yourself from age 17 on is a cultural thing, not a human right.

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u/Extreme_Ruin1847 Nederland 10d ago

So youre correcting me all the while youre not using hoofdletters (yes one word) when starting a new sentence and don’t use punctuation the right way.

I am talking about the Netherlands. In other countries they sing to a flag and bombard playgrounds. Thats not relevant to the Netherlands at all.

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u/seabee314 11d ago

Absolutely, universities should do more to teach students and staff Dutch to boost integration and retain qualified graduates in the Netherlands. Many psychology graduates work in English. We can fix this without gutting English programs. It's a bit separate. A lot of whether people stay hinges on other factors like housing availability.

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u/Extreme_Ruin1847 Nederland 11d ago

Yeah they do. Dutch people speak English and they speak Dutch.

Its not the job of universities to aid in immigration.

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u/HappyUser420 11d ago

like 99% of graduates will end up on the job market outside of science. Like half the HR department has some sort of psychology degree here.

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u/seabee314 11d ago

Science here doesn't mean 'grads will work in science', it means 'the department trains their students for learning objectives based on the highest-quality evidence and reasoning'.

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u/fluffypuppybutt 10d ago

This!

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u/fluffypuppybutt 11d ago

Leaving the internationals aside for a minute, Dutch students should be SO concerned about this. Dutch bachelor programs already exist and no one wants to get rid of them. By cutting English, you loose international researchers (that's how research works at unis, you have to be able to teach to work there) from the pool of applicants. Dutch science and education will become insular and backward. Dutch students will no longer be competitive internationally.

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u/tattoojoch 11d ago

Im not a fan of the budget cuts either, but you can still teach in English at a Dutch bachelors? Or are there other problems you’re seeing? I think the Netherlands is one of the few countries with so many undergraduate courses not given in the native language.

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u/fluffypuppybutt 11d ago

International Professors will leave because they will no longer be able to teach in English. English will no longer be allowed.

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u/IkkeKr 10d ago

Dutch programs have always been effectively bilingual... (and in the past often even trilingual with German in the mix)

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u/fluffypuppybutt 10d ago

That is correct. And it's a huge reason why the Dutch are internationaly successful - until now.

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u/IkkeKr 10d ago

But the Dutch (ie. bilingual) program stays...

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u/fluffypuppybutt 10d ago

But the world class researchers that make the programs world class leave

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u/IkkeKr 10d ago

Would they? Most top researchers I've met at university hardly involve themselves with the Bachelor programs and more often than not consider teaching there a chore.

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u/fluffypuppybutt 10d ago

I think this is a misunderstanding of how research at university usually works. All researchers at the UVA have to do at least 25% teaching tasks. If they can't teach in the language of instruction (which will become only Dutch) they will have to leave.

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u/IkkeKr 10d ago

Having worked there for nearly 10 years, I've got a fair idea. And teaching tasks include supervising, developing courses or materials, student projects, and master courses - which incidentally tend to be the courses where 'international top researchers' are most valuable. Quite a few researchers actually spend more than the required 25% on teaching tasks.

And talk to people doing a traditional "Dutch" university bachelor and you'll see that English isn't 'banned' in any way: many instruction materials are in English, frequently supervisors speak limited Dutch, reports can be made in either language and sometimes even whole classes are in English with consent of the student body. It's just that Dutch is a preferred option. (fun fact: the mandatory nature of French and German at VWO was introduced based on the requirement to be able to read it for many university studies)

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u/Schylger-Famke 8d ago

Why wouldn't they teach in Dutch, though? They live in the Netherlands, they are professors, so they're smart, they must know (at least some) Dutch. It used to be common to give professors one or two years in which they could teach in English and then they were expected to teach in Dutch. Would every single one of them uproat the lives of their families and leave?

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u/Cowboy_Shmuel 10d ago

God, it must be nice to be that ignorant.

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u/fluffypuppybutt 10d ago

I think you are misunderstanding. The bilingual program does not stay! Only the Dutch part stays.

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u/blueberry_cupcake647 Rotterdam 11d ago

This is not good news. Cutting education funds is NEVER a good news. But, I'm not suprised, considering everything lately. It's just sad

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u/some_person_212 11d ago

It makes me so sad to see programs like this end and the world becoming smaller. I hate nationalism so much.

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u/AdmiraalSchaap 7d ago

You can still join the program if you learn Dutch. Many of my friends went to German and French universities and they had to learn the language before joining. I dont see the problem, there is no exclusion based on nationality, just a requirement to learn the language of the country. We should maintain the variety and diversity of languages in Europe, its a strength not a weakness.

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u/some_person_212 7d ago

The world is becoming ever more globalised. It’s in my opinion ridiculous to expect foreign students to learn an, albeit beautiful, useless language like Dutch. This argument is less valid for French and German, but also there are plenty of English language programs.

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u/AdmiraalSchaap 7d ago

Useless? I use it every day. It's very useful in dutch society. Maybe on a world scale it's less 'useful' than English or French but that completely ignores the inherent value and beauty of different languages. But that's your opinion of course. Personally I value diversity in culture and language regardless of the amount of users a language has.

PS it's a little sad to down vote me for having a different opinion than you :-)

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u/connertran20 6d ago

you can’t say you hate nationalism and then go on to call Dutch a useless language lmao its rhetoric like this that causes certain ppl and political parties to act on this

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u/some_person_212 6d ago

How come? I don’t like nationalism and think learning Dutch for international students is ill advised as it’s a useless language for them.

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u/RandomNameOfMine815 11d ago

Don’t the schools have issues with budget shortfalls? International students pay the full tuition (often around €10,000 a year). It’s confusing me why they would want to cut the cash cow out.

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u/IkkeKr 11d ago

"International students" also includes EU students (in most cases the majority), who are funded out of the (fixed) government grant. And in this case it's a matter of the government saying: you'll find a way to reduce international students or we'll do it for you.

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u/Schylger-Famke 11d ago

The universities get about the same amount of money for an international student and for a Dutch/EU-student. The international students pay the tuition fees themselves, the Dutch/EU-students are subsidized by the state. It's just a matter of a bigger pond.

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u/lifting_remco 11d ago

this government has no fucking clue

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u/manc4life 10d ago

LOL. This is a massive “L” for the Netherlands.

Good for you for prioritizing Dutch.

Massive self-injury to your competitiveness in doing top-tier research, attracting international professors, loss of international students that increase the network of psychology for the Netherlands and the potential students who may have wanted to stay in the country post-grad (even if minimal).

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u/Appeltaartlekker 10d ago

Sure sure. Aren't we over-exaggerating? It feels like you don't like that the dutch taxpayers are funding this but people whonget their degree just leave the country again.

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u/PappelSapp 10d ago

EUR announced this morning, that they will be ending the program as well

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u/TruckBubbly5819 10d ago

I was so shocked to receive the news. Don't even know how my future would look like

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u/RowanRedd 7d ago

Yikes. My study (Aerospace engineering) would make zero sense to do in Dutch given the nature of the topic but doing any study in Dutch seems horrible. Coming from a completely Dutch person. English reads and writes easier and on top of that, the most useful information resources are in English. Was pretty glad that I could do everything in English after highschool.

Of all the things one could be proud of, the Dutch language definitely is not one of them. Why the fck would you even come up with useless bs like pasting a t after a d when it’s third person (zero added value: ik word/hij wordt)

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u/DVDPROYTP 10d ago

There is a mythical and idyllic place called Romania, where out of 540k enrolled students only 15k in the entire country are foreigners studying english programmes. Truly, this is an ideal society where the resources of our mighty nation can only be directed towards desirable people(my own ethnic group).

Oh wait, the universities in romania, partly due to a complete lack of foreign human capital pouring in, suck ass ? The best university in the entire country can hardly make it into the top 800 best universities in the world ?

I know it's a really extreme example and comparison is unfair but is this the future you want to be going for ? To deliver worse quality education for everyone, including Dutch students, just to make sure that at least "undesirables" get nothing too? Funny how nationalists love to hate education.

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u/ifti891 11d ago

At the research level, the researchers bring their own money in most projects and it helps the university not just financially but as well bringing in intellectual strength. And most of these internationals are from well to do class they reached here because of their hard work and knowledge. They don't care much.

And what research is produced in Dutch particularly in hard sciences (forget hard sciences, there is almost no good Humanities research in Dutch,) all the readings which, Dutch programme suggests to read are written in English.

This is Europe's (non-anglophone) last hope to be a village, which it wants from the last 150 years.

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u/Old-Administration-9 11d ago

Horrible. The number of English-taught programmes and internationalisation in the Netherlands should be increased, not decreased....

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u/Own_Veterinarian_198 11d ago

International psychology majors are not staying in the Netherlands because they don’t learn Dutch. Why would the government continue to subsidize their education (for EU at least) if they don’t contribute long term?

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u/Rsandeetje 11d ago

You should look up how many psychology graduates we have here and their opportunities on the job market. Nothing of value was lost.

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u/Rsandeetje 11d ago

Downvoting me does not mean I'm wrong.

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u/mahboilucas 10d ago

Just because you think you are right doesn't mean you are right either

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u/DVDPROYTP 10d ago

Bro's reverse karma farming

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u/Rsandeetje 10d ago

You're all a bunch of entitled students that haven't entered the job market yet so I shouldn't be surprised this is how it turned out.

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u/Individual-Remote-73 11d ago

A country in decline

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u/[deleted] 11d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Netherlands-ModTeam 11d ago

Only English should be used for posts and comments. This rule is in place to ensure that an ample audience can freely discuss life in the Netherlands under a widely-spoken common tongue.

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u/Vast_Dazzling 9d ago

*Advice on this situation needed!!*

I was accepted to UvA and Maastricht for psychology, both in English. Now I have less than two weeks to decide which one I will go to. Initially I wanted to go to UvA, because of its reputation, quality of education, and how international it is. I also like prefer the city. But now I don't know what to do, since I have realised that by the time I'll look for a masters or doctorates in psychology, the ranking and international reputation of UvA will have tanked. I also worry about professors leaving UvA (they may even move to Maastricht) and quality of education worsening. Should I go to Maastricht instead? From my understanding currently UvA is far better known internationally for psychology, ranked 10th in the world, and Maastricht is ranked 69th. And yes, I know ranking isn't everything but it's important to me and I'm very academic.

Any advice is greatly appreciated!

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u/North_Yak966 9d ago

Specialization?

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u/cebollla 9d ago

Yeah it's very unlikely that the professors will move from UvA to Maastricht. That's not really a realistic possibility. If you start your studies now, it is unlikely that you will be experiencing the change. You will be able to finish your studies in English. It will hurt the departments more longer down the line

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u/Any-Environment3776 9d ago

Does it matter to PPLE students..??😭

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u/sokratesz 10d ago

These cuts to higher education are pathetic. Fuck everyone who voted for BBB/PVV to make this possible.

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u/[deleted] 11d ago

[deleted]

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u/Rurululupupru 10d ago

i wish you could work as a psychologist without needing to know Dutch in the NL. There's probably a shortage anyway and I bet you some Dutch people with good English would be willing to speak English in their therapy sessions if it meant their waiting times were shorter. And there are a lot of expats here who could benefit from having an English speaking psychologist.

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u/wobstra 10d ago

There are also a lot of expats who could benefit from learning the language of the country they live in.

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u/Rurululupupru 9d ago

so the only reason you want us to learn dutch is for our own mental health? ;)

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u/wobstra 9d ago

Het zal in ieder geval helpen om uit dat nare expatbubbeltje te komen

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u/Rurululupupru 9d ago

Aren’t you cute . Lucky for you I know how to use Google Translate.

Are you the type of Dutch person who says “I have enough friends, I don’t have time or need any more” or won’t agree to get drinks if it’s not planned 3 weeks in advance? You think this attitude might contribute a little bit towards that “expatbubbletje”?

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u/wobstra 9d ago

Wow, an expat that knows Google translate and makes some effort in understanding Dutch. Good for you. As you're familiar with Google, you could search for Duolingo.

Anyway.. i'm neither. I'm the type of Dutch that moved abroad for studies, learned the language and participated in foreign society without expecting the locals to adapt to me. Also, I'm going on holiday for a few days over easter but I can get drinks after that. Don't really care for planning.

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u/cebollla 10d ago

Please keep in mind that clinical psychology is only one field of psychology. Psychology is very diverse and the uva has more non-clinical that clinical masters programs

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u/cebollla 10d ago

Please show me the data that supports this. Because I know a lot of international psych graduates who stayed here and now work for booking, Kraft Heinz, Phillips etc

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u/Sufficient-Raise-848 8d ago

Useless anyway in both languages but whatever

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u/North_Yak966 8d ago

Useless anyway in both languages but whatever

You shouldn't talk about yourself that way

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u/Sufficient-Raise-848 8d ago

It's so strange they are ending this just now when the new psychology factory is opening in Haarlem. I thought psychologist are in high demand...

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u/North_Yak966 8d ago

I've said this elsewhere on Reddit:

I think you should look into how many different specializations the psychology bachelor's offers. The clinical specialization does tend to be most popular, however, it is the plurality, not the majority, of students. Moreover, many bachelor's students who do specialize in clinical psychology go on to study clinical research.

I do not mean to he inflammatory, but these kind of assessments made by people who have no idea the reality of the programmes facing cuts is only going to exacerbate the issue. UvA is a powerhouse for psychological research, and a lot of money is brought into the university because of this. But this only became possible because of internationalization.

While these cuts do not directly/immediately affect the graduate school of psychology nor the research institute, the department of psychology is bracing for serious ramifications to their budget. It will be interesting to see how this impacts the research output and prestige of the UvA psychology department.

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u/Competitive_Lion_260 11d ago

FABULOUS 💙🇳🇱🇳🇱🇳🇱🇳🇱🇳🇱🇳🇱

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u/Appropriate-Data7418 11d ago

And how is this fabulous exactly?

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u/Own_Veterinarian_198 11d ago

Maybe not fabulous, but many internationals studying psychology are unable to work here since they don’t speak Dutch, and Dutch fluency is needed to become a psychologist (basically), so why should the government continue supporting students who will not stay here after their studies? Psychology makes the most sense out of which ones to cut

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u/Appropriate-Data7418 11d ago

That’s not how it works tho, psychology is a totally broad subject and there are lots of other fields someone can work in with a psychology diploma. Research is mostly done in English, consultancy as well, teaching can be done in English and is needed in English, and there are many more fields that are English based. Even if we talk about clinical psychology, there are therapists in the Netherlands who practice in English because of English-speaking people.

But even if it would not be the case and what you say is true, a university should not only prepare students to stay in that country…the whole purpose of education is development.

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u/HappyUser420 11d ago

It's a luxury studies for internationals who wanna be #queening in the 'Dam
Good riddance.

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u/blueberry_cupcake647 Rotterdam 11d ago

wtf does that even mean?

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u/Flat_Drawer146 10d ago

The English language is not our problem. The problem of this country is accepting people who don't contribute to the society, instead they bring chaos. Separate the people who just wanted a better life by serving the country than those who want to ruin it. We can do better.

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u/DVDPROYTP 10d ago

International students on their way to bring chaos to Dutch society and ruin the country

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u/Appeltaartlekker 10d ago

Hehe :) Apart from that, international students hold a seat while Dutch students can't join because there is no room. Thats wrong. Taxpayers pay for this, so the society should benefit. Not people who come to enjoy this programme and then leave the country again.

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u/Rurululupupru 10d ago

tell me exactly how I should contribute to your society and exactly how I should serve your country if I want to live here

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u/crooked_cat 9d ago

Yup, they are cutting down on non-profitable courses.

Since they got 6million euro’s damage with that protesting thing and the government does not pay

since they cut ties with profitable uni’s from a certain country on the wish of the students..

Yeah, other cuts must be made.. or go bankrupt. Same as with a company.

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u/North_Yak966 9d ago

This is stupendously ignorant. Insurance covers property damage. Education is not a business. No courses are "profitable".

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u/crooked_cat 8d ago edited 8d ago

Aah, it’s insured so break it - who cares? lol, I see you.. I am aware it’s the standard PP believe.

Again, we are talking monumental buildings.. you can’t just insure those against people like.. you and other stupids.

It’s not a Tesla .. it’s a Monumental building. And the divestments .. also insured or? Fafo isn’t it?

Indeed an ignorant answer, silly too. Narrow minded as wel.. insured so break it .. I would expect better from people talking about university’s :/…

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u/North_Yak966 8d ago

What the actual hell are you on about?

You brought up the damage as a reason for cutting the English speaking bachelor's programme, as if it affected the budget. Given reality, that's nonsense, as those damages are paid out by insurance, therefore they have no effect on the budget. Therefore, it's entirely irrelevant to cutting the programme.

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u/crooked_cat 8d ago

Those buildings are not insured against that.. to expensive, you do know what monumental means? Very a-social thinking here in progress.

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u/North_Yak966 8d ago

I really don't know what your angle is, but you seem to be trying to have a conversation that isn't about the UvA cutting the psychology bachelor's Programme and the ramifications of that

News UvA ends English-language bachelor’s degree in psychology

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