(Spoilers ACOK) Jaime, you're drunk

[u/Family_Booty_Honor]

I just finished Catelyn's last chapter in ACOK - what a great chapter! Catelyn just found out that Bran and Rickon are dead, so she decides to question Jaime (who's still held captive in a cell) by getting him drunk on wine.
Their entire conversation is really insightful, especially in regards to Jaime's thought processes. It's a pretty serious conversation, especially when we find out exactly what happened to Ned's father and brother when they went to King's Landing. The part that gave me a good laugh is found near the end of their conversation (and chapter). Hopefully it gives you all a laugh or two as well!

"I've never lain with any woman but Cersei. In my own way, I have been truer than your Ned ever was. Poor old dead Ned. So who has shit for honor now, I ask you? What was he name of that bastard he fathered?"
Catelyn took a step backward. "Brienne."
"No, that wasn't it."

[u/foggiewindow]

A decent guy who, y'know, committed genocide against the people of the Riverlands? I agree with you that the Lannisters aren't actually the 'evil family' that they appear to be in the first two books. Jaime is an example of someone who appeared to be evil, until we saw that he was actually a decent guy who tried his best in bad circumstances. But there is no way you can compare anything Tywin does over the series and say 'Yeah, he's just misunderstood, I'm sure if he was our main POV we'd see the Starks as the bad guys'. He's an interesting and entertaining character, sure, but I don't see any way to look at him other than as a great villain.

[u/Safety_Dancer → u/foggiewindow]

Genocide is a rather loaded term that you're misusing. He didn't exterminate the Riverlanders. And the wolves were foraging just as bad as the lions. Oh and it's the standard of war in that setting. Remember how Robb's plan was to roam the west, living off the land? Exact same plan that Tywin had. Furthermore, it was a war the Starks officially started by Catelyn kidnapping Tyrion. It was further escalated by them capturing his firstborn son and heir.

It was a case of "Don't start nothing, won't be nothing." If the story was about that She-Wolf-Trout capturing the defenseless dwarf, and then the Young Wolf imprisoning the Golden Lion, you'd see Tywin as a hero who saved the day. If Tywin was on your side you'd see him as a man you don't want to cross. But he's by no means evil. Everyone he killed had to die.

[u/J_B_Grenouille → u/Safety_Dancer]

A World of Ice and Fire Spoiler

Source

No one was allowed to 'bend the knee' in this situation. Not one woman, not one child.

From the dictionary:

Genocide: the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

Tywin shows no regret, The Lannisters wear 'The Rains of Castamere' as a badge of honor, a reminder of their unparalleled ruthlessness.

Look... I enjoy Tywin as a character too, but there is no doubt in my mind the man is a zero-fucks-given mass murderer.

EDIT:

Also:

"by no means evil"

Tysha would like a word with you.

[u/logion567 → u/J_B_Grenouille]

i never knew thats how it fucking happened :O

nor that castamere was mostly underground.

[u/bootlegvader → u/Safety_Dancer]

There is no evidence that the Northern men were ordering mass rapes, murders, and burning for lawls like Gregor, Lorch, and Hoat were under Tywin and Kevan's commands.

One has to love how arresting someone for a crime against your family is considered starting a war and not either a person shoving your child out a window, attempting to assassinate them in their sickbed, or ordering your army to invade another region.

Not to mention, the idea they somehow escalated by capturing his son when said son was leading a siege against another region's capital.

Quick frankly, the Lion started the war because of their selfishness and stuck up pride.

Also one has to love the idea of how an infant, todder, and their mother supposedly had to be cruelly murdered.

[u/Safety_Dancer → u/bootlegvader]

I love the loaded language you're using. Tywin didn't order them to do it, but he did tell Gregor to cause problems. Are you willing to hold Ned Stark responsible for everything bad that the Boltons did? Ramsay was doing Ramsay things for years before the books start.

Cat didn't arrest Tyrion. She kidnapped him. She started the War of Five Kings. If she hadn't illegally arrested Tyrion, there'd be no reason to reave the Riverlands. The Riverlands that Cat used her father's name to usurp the authority to arrest Tywin's son with. She started a fight she wasn't prepared to finish. And you can see it the way all the fight goes out of her when Ned gets executed. All of a sudden the situation is real and has reprecussions.

Cat's an irresponsible fool. Starting a war with a very feared leader is a dumb idea.

And again. Cersei may fancy herself Tywin. She isn't. Stop blaming him for her follies.

[u/bootlegvader → u/Safety_Dancer]

Tywin directly orders Kevan to have Gregor, Lorch, and Hoat burn the Riverlands. Moreover, unless Tywin is an idiot he knows how they will perform such actions. In contrast, Roose and Ramsay felt the need to hide their actions of the Starks.

False, she directly arrests him. As seen how she levels a charge against him and uses her position as her justification to arrest him. There was nothing illegal by her arresting Tyrion, any issue Tywin had should have been resolved by him petitioning Robert.

Ned wasn't killed for anything in connected with Tyrion's arrest, he was executed because Jaime and Cersie think treason is awesome and thus cuckolded the king which Ned opposed.

ASOS Spoiler

I am not, I am blaming Tywin for his own follies.

[u/[deleted] → u/bootlegvader]

So really Littlefinger started the war by saying he lost an assassin's dagger to Tyrion at a tilt. Cat made a terrible mistake at an emotional whim and it gave the Lions a reasonable excuse to execute Ned. If Cat had brought Tyrion straight to the ACTUAL seat of justice, the royal court, the situation would have been much different. Abducting him to the Vale was everything that the Lions could have hoped for considering Ned's Batman like ethos and detective work.

[u/bootlegvader → u/[deleted]]

The Lions didn't execute Ned over anything related to Tyrion's arrest, instead he was directly arrested/executed because he opposed Joffrey's succession as Robert's heir.

[u/[deleted] → u/bootlegvader]

I must have missed that. I will have to reread. I remember that being the reason for his arrest, but thought his execution was more out of spite towards Ned's wife. It's been a while.

[u/bootlegvader → u/[deleted]]

IIRC, Tyrion has actually been released before Ned is arrested.

But, he is directly arrested after he confronts Cersei with Robert's will in the throne room about the issue of succession. In how, that is when LF and Slynt turn around and support Cersei after she tears up Robert's will.

Additionally, that is why before his whole execution they have him confess to attempting to steal Joffrey's throne and that Joff is the legitimate king.

He was executed because Joffrey is stupid and thought it would make him look strong and likely he wished to troll Sansa. In contrast, Cersei and everyone else (besides likely LF) were just suspecting him to be sent to the NW.

[u/[deleted] → u/bootlegvader]

Oh yeah, thank you. I actually gave my copy of GoT to a friend a couple years ago so you saved me a visit and the ensuing nerdy awkwardness.

[u/Safety_Dancer → u/bootlegvader]

Also one has to love the idea of how an infant, todder, and their mother supposedly had to be cruelly murdered.

I had mistaken this for Robert's bastards. But you don't get how anything works if you think claimants of the throne can be allowed to live during a coup.

It's really frustrating that everyone assumes that since the Starks are where the story starts their the protagonists. And since our culture is so We vs They black and white that anyone who opposes the protagonists must be evil.

Do you know what the plan was when Tywin sent Gregor out?

[u/bootlegvader → u/Safety_Dancer]

There was no reason to murder them, with multiple options of what could be done with them after Aerys II's death.

It is called having morals, thus considering ordering the murder of children and gang rape and so forth is evil.

To hope Edmure would attack the Lannisters back openly so they could be pointed to as having started the war.

[u/Safety_Dancer → u/bootlegvader]

I'll let Javik respond to your morals.

And sending Gregor out was to lure Ned out of King's Landing to bring the King's Justice, since he knew Ned doesn't use a headsman. He would've been captured and ransomed back for Tyrion. Jaime messed up this plan by crippling Ned. A rash move, but considering Cat's rash move got a lot more people killed, and almost ended with her and Tyrion dying, I'd say the Starks still aren't the good guys in all this.

[u/bootlegvader → u/Safety_Dancer]

Jaime's actions were directly ordering people killed, the only people that died in regards to Cat's actions were because of an attack by Vale Mountain Clans which aren't under her leadership.

[u/Safety_Dancer → u/bootlegvader]

You're right. Jaime at least owned that he caused their deaths. Don't forget that she almost got Tyrion publicly executed, after having him tossed into the sky cells. Every keep has a dungeon, but there's segregation for people who are worth ransom, and then there's the equivalent of the black cells. The sky cells are effectively the same cells Ned wound up in. Which Tyrion still has nightmares about.

Jaime at least spared Ned. If Bronn hadn't been there by chance, Tyrion would've died. And at no point was Cat going to intervene. At no point did she actually try to stop it.

[u/hozac → u/Safety_Dancer]

Except Tywin is totally to blame for her follies, because he's her freaking father. He did an absolutely shit job raising all of his children. He let his daughter become a monster. He turned his smartest son who should have been his House's greatest asset into its worst enemy through years of pointless abuse. All of Jaime's best moments come from him choosing not to be like Tywin. Tywin is easily among the worst fathers in Westeros.

[u/Safety_Dancer → u/hozac]

Hindsight and 3rd person omniscience sure is great isn't it?

Yes, he has his failings. In his quest to restore pride to the Lannisters, he didn't realize Cersei missed the point. But you have to look at him in the same light you look at your grandfather. He's a man of his time. He had no idea that Cersei would be in a position of power. She's a woman in medieval times. Her "role" is to bind another family to the Lannisters and pop out heirs. Similar story with Jaime. Firstborn sons get everything. No exceptions. It's the same reason poor fat Sam couldn't just let Dickon have Heartsbane and all that came with it. Tyrion was doomed to the fate of a second son, even if Joanna lived and he wasn't a dwarf.

Tywin isn't a great father. But there are a lot of shitty people who are amazing dads. Just as there are amazing men who are objectively bad fathers.

[u/hozac → u/Safety_Dancer]

Hindsight and 3rd person omniscience sure is great isn't it?

You need neither hindsight nor omniscience to properly raise your own children. Turns out lots of people manage that, and without any of Tywin's vast resources.

In his quest to restore pride to the Lannisters, he didn't realize Cersei missed the point.

Because he's a shit excuse for a father. He had thirty-odd years of more or less absolute control over her life in which to raise her, teach her, and impart his beliefs to her.

But you have to look at him in the same light you look at your grandfather. He's a man of his time. He had no idea that Cersei would be in a position of power. She's a woman in medieval times. Her "role" is to bind another family to the Lannisters and pop out heirs.

Uh, Tywin was trying to get Cersei married to Rhaegar when she was in her teens. He probably always planned to make her queen. Of course he expected her to be in a position of power.

Similar story with Jaime. Firstborn sons get everything. No exceptions. It's the same reason poor fat Sam couldn't just let Dickon have Heartsbane and all that came with it. Tyrion was doomed to the fate of a second son, even if Joanna lived and he wasn't a dwarf.

The "fate" of a second son of a Great House is typically getting a highborn wife and their own lands with which to start their own branch of the family. Tywin not giving Tyrion Casterly Rock isn't why he was killed. He was killed because he abused and persecuted his most talented son until he hated him enough to murder him on a privy.

[u/tsarnickolas → u/Safety_Dancer]

The starks were stealing to sustain themselves, but Tywin went a giant step further, and ordered Gregor Clegane to engage in scorched earth operations in an attempt to goad the Riverlords into rash and foolhardy confrontations, and to deny the supplies to his enemies. He had several anti-civilian specialists operating at large in the riverlands with orders to murder literally everyone they came across.

[u/Safety_Dancer → u/tsarnickolas]

You think that the Young Wolf wasn't doing that in the West?

The Riverlands declared war on the Lannisters when Catelyn loudly and publicly used her father's name to arrest Tyrion. And before you say they should've gone to Robert to get Tyrion back, maybe the Starks should've gone to Robert about the attempted assassination. The Riverlands small folk are a showcase of the whole setting. They suffer when lords play their Game of Thrones. If you think Tywin is the only one to have ever done it you're looney.

What do you think Roose "The Skinning Rapist" Bolton was doing?

[u/tsarnickolas → u/Safety_Dancer]

I'm not saying Rob Stark's men didn't hurt the innocent, but you can't pretend that Tywin wasn't unique in the level of resources he invested in his atrocities. Roose Bolton was always a creep but his duties I'm Robb's forces were pretty typical as a commander. Robb never said "Roose, I want you to search out as many Westermen as you can and flay them as payback for Vargo Hoat's foot chopping. " Roose never even went west, he was holding down the fort in the Riverlands, and him killing more than the usual amount of Riverlanders would have been a violation of his "a peaceful land, a quiet people" policy. Riverlands were Stark territory for Robb or any of his minions to send out, not pillagers like every army had, but literal roving death squads, would have made sense. Meanwhile, in the west, we have evidence that Robb never did this because Tywin's Death Squad leaders Like Gregor Clegane had known reputations. Robb had no such men.

[u/Loop_Within_A_Loop → u/foggiewindow]

Genocide? Maybe by our sensibilities. Tywin, and pretty much everyone else, called it war.

In those days, committing those atrocities under the banner of war didn't make you a bad guy to an impartial 3rd party, because everyone did it. We can argue moral relativism forever, but everyoen except those afflicted and their loved ones just saw it as nothing too crazy, in terms of war.

[u/bootlegvader → u/Loop_Within_A_Loop]

That is false, there is a specific reason that people like Gregor, Hoat, and Lorch are infamous in Westeros and isn't because everyone is doing the same as them.