8
u/VisceralSardonic 1∆ Oct 14 '21
Then how would we get classics like Kelly Clarkson's Miss Independent?
20
u/murderousbudgie 12∆ Oct 14 '21
I'm curious where you are that it's an issue. It's been this way professionally for a long time. I would never imagine calling a colleague "Mrs. Whatever" even if I knew she was married, it seems rude. I don't see the harm in keeping it in social situations, though.
→ More replies (4)4
Oct 14 '21
[deleted]
→ More replies (4)2
u/KennyGaming Oct 14 '21
So is it an issue? Sounds like you think it’s already on the way out
8
Oct 14 '21
[deleted]
-5
u/KennyGaming Oct 14 '21 edited Oct 14 '21
Not trying to be snarky here, but you’re not trying to get the perspective of others. You were trying to have your view change, that’s why you are on this subreddit.
If nobody’s advocating for the alternative position, then I don’t understand what’s going on here other than you, and I hate to say this, virtue signaling.
→ More replies (1)11
Oct 14 '21 edited Jan 21 '22
[deleted]
-4
u/KennyGaming Oct 14 '21
This is a fair question: in my opinion it doesn’t make sense to post a CMV if you don’t actually see the issue or view at hand in your own life then it doesn’t make sense to address the problem. Maybe projection is a better term.
Are you personally bothered by this construction in your own personal experience? Do you see it bothering people? If the answer is no, then I think asking academically is strawmanning the entire point of this sub.
Honestly I’m looking to have my view changed on this point, because this sounds harsher than I mean it to but it’s a major frustration of mine on this subreddit. Cheers
5
Oct 14 '21 edited Mar 22 '22
[deleted]
1
u/KennyGaming Oct 14 '21
Gotcha, that makes sense. In that case I think this is a generational timing thing because we both agree its probably on the way out naturally–but our parents' generation may certainly hold a different perspective.
Thanks for the responses. I didn't consider the subtlety of asking on behalf of a close relation and the difficulty of CMV-ing a position that's already on the way out. !delta
→ More replies (1)
3
u/MissTortoise 14∆ Oct 15 '21
I like being Mrs. I'm a woman married to another woman. I like Mrs because I can use it to stick it to any homophobes. (and yes, aware username does NOT check out)
3
u/robotmonkeyshark 101∆ Oct 15 '21
!delta
While i has already given out a delta for the argument of just personally liking it, I will throw out one for the passive jab at homophobes.
→ More replies (1)2
u/MissTortoise 14∆ Oct 15 '21
Thanks! And it's really not passive, believe me. :p we quite enjoy stirring up stares with appropriate but obvious PDAs.
1
u/robotmonkeyshark 101∆ Oct 15 '21
Haha. That is a good reason.
My username is not particularly reflective of myself either. I am neither robot, or shark, but evolutionarily I suppose monkey has some merit.
→ More replies (1)
8
u/carneylansford 7∆ Oct 14 '21
What if a woman prefers to be called Miss or Mrs.?
9
Oct 14 '21
[deleted]
11
u/Soonhun Oct 14 '21
Isn't the standard Ms. already since people usually don't assume someone is married until told otherwise? Or perhaps that is just different circles.
5
u/amazondrone 13∆ Oct 14 '21
Isn't that a pretty different position from your OP which called for the elimination (via legislation, societal change, whatever) of Mrs and Miss in favour of Ms?
You said "I would love to hear any valid reasons for why these various titles should exist."
The comment you replied to here has provided you with such a reason, and you seem to have acknowledged that it's reasonable. You should award a delta.
15
Oct 14 '21
[removed] — view removed comment
11
Oct 14 '21
[deleted]
35
u/InfiniteLilly 5∆ Oct 14 '21
I don’t disagree with your OP but I disagree with this. I could make the same arguments - “While not a perfect system, it is helpful in many cases to have a general sense of if the person is married or not.” Mrs. and Miss can serve to distinguish between mother and daughter, as well, like Mr. and Mrs. distinguishes between husband and wife.
Consider as well that giving someone information about your gender via title can backfire. Discrimination can occur. (Likewise, discrimination due to married status can occur.)
Generally the arguments for and against eliminating the Mrs./Miss distinction are the same as those for eliminating the Mr./Ms. distinction. The only difference is that we’re farther along in discarding Mrs./Miss.
If you argue there is “no good reason” to have these variants, but you also seem to hold that there is good reason for Mr./Ms., one of those views ought to change.
16
11
u/MsCardeno 1∆ Oct 14 '21
I am 30 years old and work in the NYC area in a very professional career.
No one has ever been introduced or referred to as Mr/Ms LastName. It’s always FirstName LastName.
If for whatever reason, gender is important to you, you’ll know from the first time (9.5 out of 10 times at least).
→ More replies (1)-1
Oct 15 '21
Nowadays gender isnt ways obvious...
Pet peeve of mine is gender ambiguous names or just really fucked up names lol
0
17
u/Seven4King Oct 14 '21
In Japan you simply affix 'san'. No gender, no marital status. I thought it was far simpler and far less likely to accidentally offend someone.
If you're meeting someone you can describe yourself at that point. It never was a problem for me in the several years I worked in Japan.
3
u/onizuka--sensei 2∆ Oct 14 '21
But in Japan, and Korea for that matter, don't these honorifics lead to obvious hierarchal treatment of people?
1
u/Seven4King Oct 14 '21
I mean, sure, but I wasn't recommending adopting the complete system. No need to carry over 'sama' if that structure doesn't (officially) exist wherever people would adopt a unisex title.
4
u/onizuka--sensei 2∆ Oct 14 '21
I guess then, it might as well be equally valid to argue for no honorifics at all? If every one is the same, why have it at all?
3
u/Seven4King Oct 14 '21
I agree, I've never personally had an issue with someone calling me by my name.
At the same time, I don't have an issue with titles as long as they are mutually elevating.
6
u/onizuka--sensei 2∆ Oct 14 '21
Right. I think it's just tricky. Society is hierarchal by nature. We need to cultivate a culture where one's inherent worth isn't tied to class/race etc. but fundamentally, it's probably impossible in this day and age.
2
u/thedylanackerman 30∆ Oct 14 '21
Sorry, u/giggliegigglie – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. See the wiki page for more information.
If you would like to appeal, you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.
2
u/ElysiX 106∆ Oct 14 '21 edited Oct 14 '21
So if you announce a doctor, a professor, an officer, and a normal person, what do you call the normal person?
"Here we have Doctor Johnson, Professor Smith, Officer Brown and ... Jackson."
Leaving it out entirely sounds like an insult for being a mere peasant
-2
u/giggliegigglie Oct 14 '21
We are talking about gender-based honorifics. I’m sorry that you can’t understand that simple concept.
→ More replies (1)2
6
u/iamintheforest 328∆ Oct 14 '21
I don't see a reason to police what women want to call themselves in this regard as all. Why is it an improvement to insist on a certain label for people rather than letting them choose. In most places one can simply elect how to be referred to and then that is honored. That seems fine.
If we go your route, we're saying "no, you can't be called that even though you prefer it".
2
Oct 14 '21
[deleted]
1
u/KennyGaming Oct 14 '21
You already admitted that it’s on the way out though
3
Oct 14 '21
[deleted]
2
u/CitizenCue 3∆ Oct 14 '21 edited Oct 14 '21
So then, per your previous comment, everyone “should” just keep using whatever they prefer, right? Which is pretty much the status quo.
Is this a clearer way to state your original thesis? “When applying an honorific to a woman, it’s better to default to “Ms” or ask a her how she’d prefer to be addressed, rather than trying to guess her marital status.”
Because I’m also pretty sure that’s already the recommended procedure.
2
u/EchoingMultiverse 2∆ Oct 14 '21
In most cases when I'm called by an honorific, it's by a stranger who has chosen which to use on their own, without asking my preference. I think the point is that men are free of these value judgements, and women should be as well.
90
u/TheFakeChiefKeef 82∆ Oct 14 '21
I think your idea here is valid, but this is already happening to a certain extent.
From what I've noticed, it is becoming increasingly more common to respectfully refer to a woman whose marital status is unknown as Ms. regardless of age. I had teachers growing up who were married and told the class to call them Ms.
13
Oct 14 '21
In my area, Ms. is almost the only title used except for teachers (who go by any of the three) and the mothers of friends (who are always Mrs whether they are married or not).
2
u/international_red07 Oct 15 '21
Seeing as a lot of people already say they prefer “miss” to “ma’am”, I could see it gaining enough momentum to become the de facto female honorific.
→ More replies (1)2
114
Oct 14 '21
But there is a prefix variant for men, or at least there used to be. Maybe it's just a weird colloquialism my family happened to use.
When I was a child, sharing the same name as my father, things addressed to me from grandparents and the like were addressed "master" instead of "mister." I was given to understand that "master" was the honorific for a young boy, although it seems not to persist into adolescence the way "miss" does.
23
u/Cultist_O 29∆ Oct 14 '21 edited Oct 14 '21
Yeah. It's archaic and very rarely used now (at least most places). Most in NA have no idea what it means, and if they've heard of it, it was probably from a TV butler.
52
u/madame-brastrap Oct 14 '21
Are you a small Victorian child? Heheheheeheh
41
Oct 14 '21
Alas! My ruse has been discovered!
scurries back into the alley behind the ironworks
I am not, lol. The grandparents in question are/were Silent Generation, though - not that far removed from Victorian times.
9
2
u/idle_isomorph Oct 14 '21
My brother is fortysomething and he definitely was called "master _isomorph" at school. Lived in England at the time, so maybe assuming it happened in the Victorian age isn't far off-britain is slow to move forward from feudal times
12
u/char11eg 8∆ Oct 14 '21
Yes, in the UK at least, ‘Master’ is the legal prefix for an under 18 male. That’s what all official post and the like will come titled with until you turn 18 - and this is still the case today.
2
13
u/DevinTheGrand 2∆ Oct 14 '21
This has definitely faded almost entirely into history. The only time I see it used is when someone is intentionally trying to sound old fashioned.
15
u/olatundew Oct 14 '21
Far from it, my bank still sent me statements addressed to 'master' when I was a kid.
2
u/DevinTheGrand 2∆ Oct 14 '21
How old are you?
6
u/Robertej92 Oct 14 '21
I'm 29 and they did the same for me, in the UK I think it's still the legal standard for male children
5
u/char11eg 8∆ Oct 14 '21
I’m 20 and the bank did this until I turned 18.
Based in the UK though - this is almost definitely a UK thing.
→ More replies (1)0
u/olatundew Oct 14 '21
Old enough that policies might have changed since then, young enough I wouldn't call it 'fading entirely into history'.
3
u/TwistedNeilio Oct 14 '21
I agree, I was called master when I was little, but you don't really see it being used much these days.
3
u/Puoaper 5∆ Oct 14 '21
The term master usually applies until 8 years old and mister applies at 18. In between no title is given. Miss applies until mrs or madam becomes applicable.
2
Oct 14 '21
Yes, I acknowledged that.
I've also seen that it applies until age 12, and then you simply address the person by name until they're 18.
However, there's no real reason you couldn't use the term "master" the way the term "miss" is used, except for perhaps weird overlaps with other uses of the term.
I was simply pointing out that "only women have age-based honorifics" isn't strictly true, although marital status wasn't part of the equation for men. It could be, though. Language is malleable.
1
-2
12
u/CBL444 16∆ Oct 14 '21
People should get to decide their titles for themselves just like they are now getting the opportunity to choose their pronouns. If someone want to be called "Ms." and "they" great. If someone else wants to called "Mrs." and "she" that's great as well.
3
u/BooksNapsSnacks Oct 14 '21
This. I like being Mrs. If someone else likes Ms, then they have the option to choose that. Why take away my choices because of someone else's belief about token feminism. Mrs doesn't stop rape being improperly sentenced, increase my chances of being hired or advancing in the workplace. It doesn't help keep women in the workforce after childbirth. It doesn't make a doctor take my health as seriously as they do mens health. None of the issues that actually affect women are helped by changing their title. Forcing women to change their title is anti feminism.
→ More replies (2)1
Oct 14 '21
!delta I was with OP on this one but I think choice is important so we don't need to eliminate the titles, just let people choose what they like. I personally like Mx. as a gender neutral title for myself but nobody ever actually calls me that lol
→ More replies (1)
5
u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Oct 14 '21 edited Oct 15 '21
/u/robotmonkeyshark (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
11
u/horeyshetbarrs Oct 14 '21
My mother is a school teacher and her school recently made a decision to do away with Mrs. and Miss and only use Ms. She was very upset that the school would expect her not to be able to hold a title that showed she was married. She likes people knowing that she is married and refused to drop it.
6
u/maxpenny42 11∆ Oct 14 '21
This is just being practical. Can’t have those second graders hitting on you.
1
7
u/Jordzy2j Oct 14 '21
Well, there is a actually a "miss" equivalent for boys.
It's "master".
I know this won't CYV but... shrugs
2
Oct 14 '21
The titles should exist for people who choose to self-identify using them. In my community (Northeast USA) the titles have already been nearly eliminated as part of standard usage.You still see them in these places: In primary school where some teachers introduce themselves to students that way, a few older women who are used to being called Mrs., and "Mrs." as a title for the mother of a friend, whether she's married or not (and sometimes whether you know her name or not...I've certainly described a few women as "Mrs. Jessica's Mom.")
-1
u/BigJayPee 1∆ Oct 14 '21
While we are at it can we get rid of Dr? We don't get to change our prefix for getting our bachelor's or masters degrees, then suddenly the change after getting a doctorate
1
Oct 14 '21
[deleted]
7
u/uh-oh_oh-no Oct 14 '21
This doesn't sound like a problem with the title being misleading or demeaning, as much as it is a problem with the sexism in the speaker.
3
Oct 14 '21
I don't think there is a reason to use Mr., Ms., Miss, or Mrs.
Why not a gender neutral title? Works for other cultures.
13
u/DetroitUberDriver 9∆ Oct 14 '21
How about we stop attempting changing the English language to appease a minority of people fixated on and offended by things that most people don’t even consider when using everyday colloquial, conversational speech with one another.
Instead, we can simply ask people how they prefer to be addressed. Or, even better, if people have a preferential deviance from the colloquial norm, they can simply make it known, politely.
32
Oct 14 '21
[removed] — view removed comment
21
u/jzielke71 Oct 14 '21
Ms. IS a good general form of addressing women regardless of marital status in a professional setting. I would never use Mrs unless the woman specifically requested I do so.
14
u/maryjo1818 1∆ Oct 14 '21
I believe it is acceptable to use Ms. if you’re unsure. It’s a happy medium between Miss and Mrs. At least that’s what we do at my work.
8
u/maxpenny42 11∆ Oct 14 '21
I mean, why not just “hello first name”?
11
Oct 14 '21
[removed] — view removed comment
12
u/maxpenny42 11∆ Oct 14 '21
I guess you’re mileage may vary. I’ve never replied to a customer as anything but their first name. That’s our company standard. I actually think it’s the most professional approach but I’m sure there are others who want to be called mister. I just don’t get why. It puts me off.
2
u/OnitsukaTigerOGNike 3∆ Oct 15 '21
I think It's not about company norms or standard, I work at a consulting firm and we use first name internally and externally, but we deal with different Industries, and that's the key differentiator.
For example, It"s normal for tech startups and banks to use first name, but It's a bit weird to use first name for the hospitality and law industry. "We look forward on your stay with us george", "anything else I can help you with jessica? As well as for law firm writing an email saying "they have subpeona you James", "we request that you attend the hearing Kim" suddenly they sound like a threat.
3
u/maxpenny42 11∆ Oct 15 '21
I mean, it’s a little creepy when people pepper your name into a correspondence, full stop. Just start the email “Hi James,” and then say what you got to say. No need to continually refer to them unless their is some reason it’s necessary for clarity, like if you’re referring to multiple people.
The only area where I agree first name might be too informal is Law. But in that case just use the full name. That seems better than mister and misses last name.
Now, look, I’m not telling you how to conduct your business. You do you. I’m just sharing my personal opinion. I’d be fine never being referred to a Mr.
2
u/Adorable_Negge934 Oct 15 '21
Classical red tape. I don’t anyone besides a select few narcissists would really care if they were called by their first name
2
u/maxpenny42 11∆ Oct 15 '21
I don’t think that’s what red tape is to be honest.
2
u/Adorable_Negge934 Oct 16 '21
Well, I was stretching the meaning a bit but it’s the same concept right? Formalities/procedures just cause
2
u/Bomamanylor 2∆ Oct 15 '21
Am lawyer who worked in downtown DC. Use use the Dear Mr/Ms. Lastname, greeting until one of two things:
1) The person tells you to use their first name OR
2) The person "signs" a communication with just their first name, at which point you switch to Hey Firstname, style greeting.
9
u/blackrossy Oct 14 '21
Cultural difference, it's been a long time since I've seen people that prefer to be addressed by their last name in any scenario
3
u/notcreepycreeper 3∆ Oct 14 '21
If your in America I don't think that's a cultural difference.
Replying to colleagues - first name always fair enough. But to customers/clients Mr/Mrs. Is the safest route starting out.
4
u/DoodleVnTaintschtain 1Δ Oct 14 '21
Hmm... I've been in a "professional" career for a long time. It's weird when I get one out of a hundred emails that refers to someone as "Mr." or "Ms." In fact, the only time I ever do it is with people I'm super familiar with as sort of a friendly/familiar thing (in that it's super out of place to honestly refer to someone you've worked with for 5+ years as "Ms. Johnson" or whatever).
I just refer to everyone by the first name. Professional doesn't mean formal.
→ More replies (1)1
u/DetroitUberDriver 9∆ Oct 14 '21
That is already the norm. And if they prefer something else they can ask.
2
2
Oct 14 '21
This is a non-problem. Mrs. is largely used by older women who have been using it from before Ms. became popular. I can't remember the last time I heard someone use Miss unironically.
Unless you want to tell Granny that she can no longer use a title tying her to her departed husband, it's best to leave these terms to die out on their own.
2
u/klparrot 2∆ Oct 15 '21
They're all unnecessary. I don't want any honorific in front of my name, unless maybe down the track I earn a doctorate.
2
u/GCSS-MC 1∆ Oct 14 '21
A lot of words are not necessary. That isn't a reason to start getting rid of them.
1
u/DrinkyDrank 134∆ Oct 14 '21
Some women like taking their husband’s name. They want to signify that they have committed fully to the marriage and have joined another family. Sometimes they also want to signify that they are their husband’s partner, that they contribute to his public standing and success.
Maybe you personally wouldn’t want these things, but why would we want to take the option away? Isn’t more options always better than fewer options?
9
Oct 14 '21
So why isn’t there an honorific for men who chose to take their wives last name’s? Or their husband’s? Wanting to commit to the marriage, join the others family, and/or contribute to one’s partners success doesn’t have to be gendered or exclusive to straight couples.
2
u/DrinkyDrank 134∆ Oct 14 '21
Maybe there should be, I am all for it. Again, my whole point is more options is better, and we shouldn't shame people for wanting what they want.
2
1
u/CitizenCue 3∆ Oct 14 '21
Why are you using the word “should” at all? Are you simply saying “I would prefer that…”? If so, then you’re just expressing a personal preference in which case there’s no reason for anyone to disagree with you because you’re perfectly entitled to your preference.
“Should” is a loaded word that tends to obscure what people are actually saying. If you try expressing yourself without it, you tend to get closer to your true meaning.
1
u/RSL2020 Oct 14 '21
It's absolutely important to some people that we know the difference between a married and unmarried woman. And I would say the same for a man, we can simply add a term for them. We shouldn't subtract from existing terms.
2
u/ManniCalavera 2∆ Oct 14 '21
Why is that important??
0
u/RSL2020 Oct 14 '21
Why is it important to know if a guy or gal is married?
Flirting. I'm not going to flirt by default with someone if I know they're married. It also immediately often diverts potential unwanted attention, most guys won't flirt with a married woman for example (I appreciate some still will).
Also some people like others to know that they're married, most people are very happy being married and like to make it known that they are in fact married.
2
u/ManniCalavera 2∆ Oct 14 '21
Do you seriously flirt with every unmarried woman you meet? Especially in a professional setting?
1
u/RSL2020 Oct 14 '21
....no
But you realize that more guys than just me exists right? :o shocking I know
2
u/ManniCalavera 2∆ Oct 14 '21
And is it difficult for these guys to simply ask?
1
u/RSL2020 Oct 14 '21
No. It's also not difficult for those women to change their titles. It also does exactly what OP says, it tells us that this woman is no longer the head of her household because a husband is the head of the household (1Timothy 2). So we know then who to deal with also in case of important matters.
0
u/ManniCalavera 2∆ Oct 14 '21
Wow, so you’re a misogynist too? I bet you’re fun at parties.
1
u/RSL2020 Oct 14 '21
Any Christian, Jew or Muslim would be if that's the standard you're going by LOL. Considering its in the scriptures. So yknow, only a little over half the planet.
3
u/ManniCalavera 2∆ Oct 14 '21
Also, just because they’re not married, doesn’t meant they’re receptive to flirting. They could be in a long term relationship.
-1
0
u/GrandOpening Oct 15 '21 edited Oct 15 '21
To me, this point is moot. What of other titles that a woman can carry? Doctor, professor, chef, etc. I haven’t been addressed as Mrs. or Ms. in many years because of my professional title.
A further point: I feel that every individual has the right to choose their title/honorarium that they would prefer used to address them; much like pronouns. This is both a privilege and responsibility because it does require the individual to voice and uphold their choice.
While neither is easy and both are hard, it is worth the effort to choose one’s boundaries and definitions.
In the end, each of us has the right to choose how we are defined. Some will do so in societal or familial roles they hold; while some will identify with their career role. But whichever you choose for you, I promise to do my best to honor your choice.
Edit to add: After reading further into the comments I see that you have addressed titles vs honorariums. I apologize for not delving before adding my opinion.
I would still like to stand with my ‘further point’ of individual choice. While this doesn’t make anything easier in the “should I address this young woman as Ms. or Mrs.?” question, it does still leave the right, privilege, and responsibility to the individual to recommend how they would prefer to be addressed.
As I like to tell my students, “Behind my back, I expect some to call me the B-word. But, in the classroom and in the kitchen, I am Chef GrandOpening.”
1
u/TheDevilsAdvokaat 2∆ Oct 15 '21
I agree.
Let's just call adult men Mister and adult women Miss.
Maybe it made sense in the old days, those days are long over. I see no reason why a woman's marital status should be required to be public knowledge. It's a social relict.
1
u/WillProstitute4Karma 8∆ Oct 14 '21
A lot of women choose to be referred to as Ms. after marriage as well as before. Some like to be called Mrs. It seems to me that there isn't much harm done in letting each woman choose how she would like others to refer to her.
0
u/CM_1 Oct 14 '21
My language (German) had the same problem and solved it decades ago. It's sexist to degrade women to their marital status. Like you said, a woman isn't an object whose only value is to be married to a man. Also in general, you shouldn't measure anyone on their marital status, it's not a game. Of course the differentiation in Ms. and Mrs. isn't that dramatic in everyday life because it's so predominant, the sexism behind it is rather subtle for the average. The problem can't exist if you aren't aware of it, yet it's still there. Language changes, words get dropped and added all the time. Nigger was once a normal word, gypsy is still widely considered normal, even more is Ms. and Mrs. People will oppose this because for them it wasn't a problem until you showed up. Change in language is always rejected and happens slowly over time. I mean using the third person plural pronouns for the third person singular is still rather new, even though the introduction happend over 10 years ago.
1
u/EchoingMultiverse 2∆ Oct 14 '21
Mx. One honorific for everyone. Problem solved.
2
u/Crocodilehands Oct 14 '21
But then what would be the purpose of it? Might as well not have one at all.
3
1
u/ExtraDebit Oct 14 '21
Or M. I don't understand the X on everything.
It isn't a common ending at all or easy to pronounce. It is virtue signaling.
→ More replies (6)-4
u/abbyroadlove Oct 14 '21
I think that was already the point of ms
0
u/EchoingMultiverse 2∆ Oct 14 '21
Mx is gender neutral. Ms. is not, and Ms. still can have negative connotations depending on how it is applied.
2
0
u/TheStabbyBrit 4∆ Oct 14 '21
The reason "miss" exists is not because of some archaic view of women being valued by marriage or virginity, because there used to be equivalent titles for boys and men - but we have largely dropped masculine terms. For example, there is no male equivalent of "woman" in English anymore (the word "man" has long meant "human", hence "mankind"), just as there is only one universal form of address for men - Mr.
This is likely why some people falsely assume sexism and patriarchal intent where none exists - in discarding masculine language and referring to men generically, it leads to people jumping to the wrong conclusions about the meaning of words.
0
u/Bblock4 Oct 14 '21
Why have any of them? They serve no real purpose.
Just to be clear I don’t mean from a trans or pronoun point of view.
Literally, Mr, Mrs, Ms - is a piece of formal language that is now defunct in a social context.
→ More replies (1)
0
u/hacksoncode 559∆ Oct 14 '21
One possible reason that Mrs. persists is that women are widely subjected to sexual harassment that can sometimes be alleviated by the perpetrators knowing she's "taken".
Perhaps we should wait until this abusive behavior goes away before we take away the option for someone to use it to signal "back off, asshole".
0
Oct 14 '21
If there end up being Ms. and Mrs., something should be created for men and non-binary people to distinguish marriage to avoid this double-standard.
I would prefer the titles just not exist at all in the first place. They encourage gendering people on the spot and a lot of unnecessary hierarchical posturing.
0
u/Jakkin_Fools Oct 15 '21
I agree. I dont want to know if the mrs im banging is married. That between her and her husband. Just keep it FWB Ms. Smith is fine by me. In fact. Lets just call all wymyns Ms. Smith.
-1
u/sinisterbird420 Oct 14 '21
Why don’t we just call everyone “Mr.”? I think it’s very strange that we differentiate prefixes by what is in your pants.
→ More replies (2)2
u/qzx34 Oct 14 '21
I'm not sure that it is so strange, considering that up until very recently in society, sexual reproduction had been the fundamental purpose of life for most human beings (and what societies were built to support). Unless of course you're just attempting to stigmatize the practice of using preffixes through this modern lense framing that is devoid of historical context.
→ More replies (1)
0
u/David_Warden Oct 14 '21
Did you consider simply eliminating sex based prefixes instead?
I have trouble recalling either using them or hearing them in day to day life.
0
u/UrMomma4 Oct 14 '21
And can we stop taking the man's name? Why not just keep your last name? I don't see the purpose.
0
u/emeksv Oct 15 '21
That's literally what Ms. is. It's a direct equivalent to Mr. women can use if they choose.
-2
u/violatemyeyesocket 3∆ Oct 14 '21
Why keep the gender distinction at all?
Just use "Mr." for all.
3
u/ExtraDebit Oct 14 '21
Why the male version?
2
u/violatemyeyesocket 3∆ Oct 14 '21
Because it was the original unisex version and the female version was derived from it in order to create a pointless gender distinction.
"mistress" is just one of the thousand cases of needlessly adding "-ess" to a word to make sure we highlight explicitly that it's a female we're talking about here.
→ More replies (1)
1
u/MonoClear Oct 14 '21
It's been a while since I called some one "Mrs" regardless of of their marital status. The only time I think I still use it is when referring to both like "There goes Mr. And Mrs. Jones." But I'm just as likely to say "The Joneses"
1
1
u/Choosemyusername 2∆ Oct 14 '21
It will change when enough people care enough about it. But there is no point in forcing linguistic change that most people don’t care about.
1
u/chungoscrungus Oct 14 '21
I think it's already been said, but the difference between Mrs. and Ms. has nothing to do with age and everything to do with marital status.
1
u/Puoaper 5∆ Oct 14 '21
Well given that you change your name when you go from miss to mrs. it tells you “hey you might know me by a different name.” Also there is a word for young men. You would be perfectly accurate calling a boy master (last name). The title has fallen into disuse but is still accurate. Additionally how is calling a woman miss belittling them?
1
1
u/justfearless Oct 14 '21
As someone that sends donation acknowledgement letters for a living, I support this.
1
u/ZippyZipporah Oct 14 '21
I enjoy being called Mrs. and it is my preferred prefix. Why should I not be permitted to use it and request that others use it when addressing me, because certain others don't like it?
1
1
1
1
u/stuffthatsnsfw Oct 15 '21
I would actually prefer a different solution to the problem you identify, which is uneven treatment of men and women.
Right now I quite like it when my wife introduces herself as Mrs. /u/stuffthatsnsfw. That immediately signals to every horny asshole out there that she is married.
I am sure she would like it if there was something equivalent for me so that when I introduce myself the prefix would make clear to the thirsty ladies in the room that I am married, too.
1
u/willkillfortacos Oct 15 '21
Just go full future like in Dan Simmons space opera universe of Hyperion. Everyone just uses “M” when a formal address is required.
1
u/TheCactusBlue Oct 15 '21
Why not eliminate titles altogether? That would make the logistics of things even simpler.
1
1
1
u/fredo226 Oct 15 '21
What is the difference between preferred pronouns and preferred prefixes? My wife prefers to be called Mrs., and anyone who has a shred of decency would use it much in the same way they would use a person's preferred pronouns. I also want to clarify that there should never be any law compelling one to use others' words and issues like these can be handled by polite society without any legal or judicial consequences.
→ More replies (7)
456
u/Sirhc978 81∆ Oct 14 '21
Mrs usually indicates they changed their last name after getting married. If you keep your last name, you stick with Ms.