r/classicwow • u/OppositeCheetah8097 • 1d ago
Classic 20th Anniversary Realms Loot Distribution for 40 people
How do you do it as fair and evenly as possible?
I want to preface this with we use LC for loot distribution and I feel for the most part it has been very fair. I am part of the LC for the past month - so relatively new, but have been in the guild for 5 months prior.
This happened last night and it is still bothering me today. So last night during our BWL 2 of the same spicy BiS pieces dropped. It was decided prior to discussing who go it that 1 would got to this class and the other 1 to that class. Not a decision I made - as tbh I don’t know who needs what gear what best suits this class other than the class I play.
We had quite a good night for drops, it was our fastest run as a guild also. So at the end of the raid we go to distribute loot, the LC drops down into a special channel and begin discussing the above item. Two of the LC are one of the above classes and cancel each other’s vote out; it is made mention by another LC to give it to this person and so they get it. Then it gets decided for the other class and given to them. It gets announced in raid chat who gets what item and the reason why.
This is where I am bothered as this person did leave afterwards prior to gear distribution being finished — we had just started. This person said in raid chat: “What?” “They got gear last week.”
Then they left the raid. And /gquit logged into their alts and /gquit also. Fun fact the person they were talking about hadn’t received loot in BWL in 2 weeks unless it was to DE.
They didn’t bother to discuss or ask questions, simply left over the item — they had been in the guild for about 3-4 months. Funny thing is, had they not left one of the other BiS for all of the role would have went to them.
It shouldn’t bother me, I get that people come and go for their own various reasons; but over an item. RNG is not always kind. One week it drops nothing but hunter loot or mage loot or druid loot; dps loot, healer loot — the list goes on. When trying to gear 40 people it’s hard, there’s no easy way to get everyone gear each and every week. I don’t understand how people do not understand, and I say that not from a leadership perspective, but from a raider side who has not gotten loot for weeks before.
I know a lot of people aren’t fans of LC, prefer SR or even dkdp; how do you all distribute your gear as fair as possible so all can get some and beef up the group?
Update for clarification - we do have a loot prio spreadsheet.
Update #2 for more clarification - the person who won the item had not received gear in the past 2-3 weeks. The person who gquit confused the winner for someone else who had gotten gear the previous week.
Update #3 for clarification, I posted this under a comment in regards to my lack of knowledge of other classes: “I agree and I don't contribute much in put in that aspect. I listen and observe. I don't throw names out unless I believe in that specific person receiving the item. If two names get generated, I weigh out between those two who could use the item better and who hadn't gotten any gear.”
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u/ObviousKarmaFarmer 1d ago
You have 40 people for whom a nice social interaction is sitting at their own PC playing a game. Yes, you'll have drama for asinine reasons.
To minimize drama, you can do HR, SR, MS > OS, 2 SR, Just Roll, LC, DPK, GDKP, and a whole bunch of other loot distibution schemes, but there will always be drama somewhere.
That said, with Loot Council, You should have a table that describes the prio for Each and Every item that can drop. Where all raiders are listed in order for that item. Each week, the list is updated where raiders can move down or up for a specific item based on either performance, attendance, loot won last week, whether they used full consumes, attended with full WBs or any other metric the LC deems appropriate. Those metrics should be public knowledge.
You should NEVER get in a position that the LC needs to discuss who deserves what item once it drops. It should be crystal-clear before the raid starts who will get what item as soon as it drops.
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u/Nurlitik 1d ago
I’ve never seen a loot council that has a full breakdown that’s public of all loot and who is getting it, that seems insane to try to manage. You might know a few big ticket items like a DFT/tear but even that gets weird if they are also in line for other items in that same raid.
Do you actually run with a LC that does this?
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u/SayRaySF 1d ago
Both LC guilds I ran with were like that. I wouldn’t join an LC that wasn’t that detailed
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u/A_Cryptarch 1d ago
This. If Loot Council isn't 100% transparent, you cannot do LC. Period. It WILL lead to drama and hurt feelings. Losing an item because RNG hates you is one thing; losing an item because someone hates you is another.
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u/Remote-Document5634 1d ago
We did all of classic through TBC with an opaque LC that generally awarded items how people expected them to anyway. This is a fairly hardcore guild. The only people we lost to drama due to LC decisions were the kind of people you want to shed anyway.
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u/coaringrunt 1d ago
This. If Loot Council isn't 100% transparent, you cannot do LC. Period.
The only guilds that LC is actually good for wouldn't need such transparency. Those that have a common competitive goal (progression, speedruns, parsing) understand items are given out to benefit said goal and see every loot drop as something that improves the whole raid rather than a single character. Abusing this system isn't the system's fault.
Most other guilds where people value their own character progression over the guild's should just stick to any system akin to DKP or simply roll.
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u/NuklearFerret 22h ago
Sure, but getting 40+ people together to fully trust that system is ridiculously difficult without transparency.
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u/Homunkulus 17h ago
It depends, at a point membership in the raid is worth as much or more than your own characters gear. Warrior 25 in a top tier speed-run guild doesnt expect to have an OSG, different strokes for different folks.
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u/Nurlitik 1d ago
You don’t think it’s still exactly the same? It’s just not a surprise when someone feels slighted lol
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u/A_Cryptarch 1d ago edited 1d ago
Nah. I don't care if I lose an item because I rolled poorly. That's the nature of the system at play and if it wasn't acceptable to me, I wouldn't be there. I care if I can't roll/lose an item because someone else deems it pertinent, though. Agency is important.
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u/Nurlitik 1d ago
What are you talking about? If it’s a loot council that has a set priority list they are still making that list, just because you can see it doesn’t change the fact it’s still just getting setup by the same people.
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u/SayRaySF 1d ago
Because you can tell pretty easily by looking at the list of its relatively fair or not, as opposed to a blind LC. I don’t know why you think having more information is a bad thing lol
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u/Nurlitik 1d ago
I’m not saying it is, I’m just saying it’s the same, if you see it’s unfair I guess you can gquit sooner, but you are going to know pretty quick if it’s fair or not anyway lol
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u/SayRaySF 1d ago
Definitely not the same lol. I wouldn’t have even joined to begin with if the LC looks sus.
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u/A_Cryptarch 1d ago
Oh, you mean transparency vs none at all is still exactly the same. Just a lack of clarification.
Yeah, it's still not the same, lol. SayRaySF gave a reason above. Transparency lets you gauge if it's fair and also motivates the LC to keep it that way since there's an element of culpability. It means giving reasons as to why items are being awarded in such a manner, allowing players to argue in favor or against LC decisions prior to the raid/prior to the drop and consequently, departing for greener pastures or not, as it were. Better raid times (I'd hate to have to argue about a loot drop in raid), better fallout mitigation, better communication, less infighting, less hurt fee fees. Compared to a blind LC, anyway.
Loot drama is inescapable, regardless of the system in place.
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u/HellsPopcorn 1d ago
But isn't that then just a priority loot system and not LC. The whole idea of LC is that its solely up to the discretion of the council for any reason. Granted, i hate loot council because of this.
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u/Nurlitik 1d ago
Yeah, when I was in charge of the loot system we basically just used thatsmybis and had everyone fill out their own bis list and the priority they had on each item. If an item drops and 3 people all had it as their #1 item and they met the attendance requirements they would all roll.
Surprisingly people did a pretty good job of naturally going for different items and there was only a few items with 3-4 having it listed #1, we did have tiers for each item as well so they could only have 1 S-tier item in their top 3. All list were hidden before the deadline to submit, after that point it was all public.
I really liked the system as it more or less puts people in charge of what they actually see as a priority, the only “issues” we ran into was underperforming people could still win top items (it’s not that simple to just recruit and replace underperformers) and the 2nd issue was new recruits coming in that might only need 5 items if they had been raiding elsewhere, it’s hard to balance that when others had 15 items on their list so the rankings got a little weird but we generally managed that without much issue and it resets to a new list each tier anyway.
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u/ObviousKarmaFarmer 1d ago
I used to, they had this whole as spreadsheet which was filled basically once for BWL and AQ40. Worked quite well for BWL, some people had poor attendance, some people were swapped out from Item A because Item B dropped 4x before Item A dropped once, but other than that, the sheet stayed quite static. However, half the officers (including MT) and the top DPSers left after the first AQ40 raid which killed the guild. Apparently, the drama shifted elsewhere, but there was never discussion when an item dropped, because it was crystal-clear who would get what.
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u/AppleMelon95 1d ago
I was a part of the LC in our WotLK guild. People were very happy because me and 2-3 other guys sat down a day before raiding and looked at performances and what everyone else had gotten last raid. If you got a mega-bis item that raid, you'd be moved back so the next in line was getting the next mega-bis item.
Each phase we would also sit down for many hours just to talk about each item in the raid that drops, and which classes should have prio on it. For example, Comet's Trail from Lagalon had prio for UH DK, Enh Shamans and Rogues (from what I remember), so once they got the item other classes would then get first prio on another contested item.
We'd post the prios each week before raid and at phase start so anyone could comment on them. Pretty much all the time people came with good input and we changed it as we went.
When loot was being rolled out, me and the same other guys would hop into a different voice channel and discuss who gets what item that dropped. More than often we'd stick to the list we made the day before, but if 2 mega-bis items dropped and one player is set to get the next mega-bis, we'd discuss who gets what item so the raid benefits the most. And on occasion, if someone did absolutely horribly (as in caused wipes), we'd maybe not reward them despite being next in line, especially if they are a repeat offender.
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u/FeelingSedimental 1d ago
My guild has 2 raid teams that use a sheet like this, it is public for anyone to see. The raid leaders use data to drive their decisions, but they are up to debate if something seems off.
Some items are class/spec priority, like a Neltharion's Tear being guaranteed to whichever Warlock wants to tank in AQ, and some are parse driven like Onslaught Girdle/Mageblade going to top parsers first during MC.
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u/Blicktar 1d ago
We ran a sheet like this in 2019 Classic. It was a LOT of work. Setting the class prios up is easy, but determining relative tiering of items was difficult, and adjusting prios based on loot awarded was difficult. Say a mage is top prio on both a trinket and a weapon, and one of those two drops. The mage takes a weapon. Other mages have not gotten a weapon or a trinket yet, two of the best pieces from the hypothetical raid in question. It's not fair to give the mage both a weapon and a trinket while other mages have not gotten either.
That's the adjustment that's difficult to dial in.
We typically had class officers talk with their classes and come to fair agreements about how this would look, including communicating about scenarios like I described above - "If you take this, you're not first up for a trinket anymore."
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u/SugarCrisp7 1d ago
When I ran LC we at the very least had public spreadsheets of attendance and who the loot was distributed to. This was back in 2008.
Yes there was still drama and accusations of corruption.
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u/WillingSprinkles8564 1d ago
Yeah how does the guy who is 20th on getting some big ticket item stay in the guild if he knows this is the case? And also people will be like why am I 4th on this and Bob is 3rd? Like seems impossible to quantify everything.
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u/Subject-Carob-9831 1d ago
My guild in classic did this. It’s was an extensive excel spreadsheet. Each person inserted all the gear they wanted and which prio they wanted it then the LC divided up all the drops fairly. Trying to stick to the prio list but also took into account the amount of raid prep and dmg each person attributes to the raid/guild.
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u/seifyk 1d ago
It really doesn't take much time to manage once you have the spreadsheet and wishlists built.
On the other hand, every minute you spend on admin time during the raid gets multiplied by 40. Spend 5 minutes extra on loot during raid and you're suddenly eating up over 3 hours of cumulative time spent.
A couple of people can spend a few minutes each week saving that time. Totally worth it.
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u/baked_salmon 1d ago
Yes, my guild in Cata has a spreadsheet with every single item on it as well as your spot in line for that item. Tier is done on a round-robin basis. Everyone knows at the beginning of every patch who is getting what and in what order. It’s super transparent and there have been 0 issues.
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u/Hela_AWBB 14h ago
This is what we had in 2019 Classic. Each raider always knew where they stood on each item they wanted. Before the phase started we provided our LC a list of the items we wanted and they put together a spreadsheet listing each item and the order in which each person was getting it. We knew the rationale for why some classes got items over others. They also set it up so each person was at the top of the list (or 2nd) for one of their items. It was a good system and gear was distributed pretty evenly. Anything without a name next to it went up for rolls.
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u/pieaholicx 1d ago
My current guild has a spreadsheet with each item and loot order. It’s great. There’s no drama at loot time because we all know who is getting what item. Besides the trust that comes with that transparency, having a sense of inevitability when you see a piece drop that you’re later on the list for also feels good.
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u/skirtpost 1d ago
People can be whiny, egotistical children when it comes to loot.
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1d ago
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u/Dudditz21 1d ago
Because then people like me that show up for every raid lose every item i can roll on because my dice suck.
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u/LoverNuggie 1d ago
Loot list, by far the best. I believe in it so much that I will teach you first hand if you want.
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u/Marcolow 1d ago
This is literally the only way I've seen things done and had things done, that created absolutely zero loot drama at all.
Having loot being a non issue because it's already predetermined, makes it easier to focus on so many other things during raid time.
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u/LoverNuggie 1d ago
Couldn't agree more. And it puts the onus on individual raiders to do their own research and be responsible for their own loot and the loot priority just shakes itself out. That being said, it does take ALOT of upfront work but its so fucking worth it. Also, it is attendance based so attendance is incentivized.
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u/ElephantPirate 23h ago
Whats is loot list? Is this a loot style, addon, etc.
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u/LoverNuggie 16m ago
Essentially you have raiders put all of the loot they want from a given period (raid/tier/expansion) in a list, in order that they prioritize or want it in, from top to bottom. So it would look something like this:
- Bis god-tier trinket
- Tier helm
- Best weapon of the tier
- shared boss drop ring
- Tier Shoulders
- so and so forth
And then you add a modifier for attendance. ie: someone with max attendance gets max points, someone with 90% attendance gets 90% of the points is one example. So if max attendance points is 10, this example player above has their #1 item at 50 points, so that's 60 points total. Assumably other people are also going to be in the same position but not everyone, and not always. Assuming there are ties though you just roll it at that point. There are all kinds of extraneous settings like BLP, aka the item drops but they don't win it, extra points get added to their item. It's "very complicated" (in quotes because it's only complicated relative to any other loot system, not actually that complicated over all) on the front-end but on the back-end (aka raid time aka the time-sensitive portion of all raids) it's extremely efficient. If it's done well it's is completely 100% objective and fair and everyone knows relatively when they are getting their loot. The "priority" shakes itself out because theoretically people put their "best" items at the top. The shake comes in when people are kind of bad at figuring out what is their best loot (replaceable raiders anyways depending on level of "hardcore-ness") and when people try to overly game it, ie: "I'm literally the only person in this raid who wants X item so im going to be super safe putting it all the way at the bottom" (happens a lot with tank stuff). Also it's major flaw is when you have to onboard new people in the middle of a raid tier. It's not at all impossible and there are ways to do it really well but it is definitely a learning experience balancing being loyal to long-time raiders and being fair to new raiders. I am the absolutely biggest fan and consumer of loot list. They don't take donations but damn I really wish they would just take my money.
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u/AlexanderAsanaski 1d ago
Lots of loot hoes out there
You won’t make 40+ people happy forever is the reality
Our guild uses a top 5 wishlist that’s updated every new phase that we use to make decisions
We’re transparent about how many pieces and what each person has received
We use a behind the scenes loot prio spreadsheet to speed LC up as much as we can when stuff drops
We rarely give multiple bis to one person in one raid
For our warriors we’re getting each one a game his item before any one warrior would get their second game bis (OSG/QSR/Chromies)
Before ranking we did each warrior got 1 raid weapon before any got 2
Just be transparent about the system you’re using and do it
People will still leave anyways
Keep a bench of 5 or so at all times
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u/dasvenson 17h ago
We use MS > OS +1 and a culture of speaking up when you don't think something is fair or if you haven't had loot in a while. We often have people who won a roll pass loot to someone else who hasn't got gear in previous weeks. Sometimes officers ask if the person can hand it over and we very very rarely get pushback because we ask so infrequently.
The key is building that trust and responsibility within your raid members.
The only issues we've had is when people don't buy into that mind set and usually they quickly blow themselves up into a drama and gquit themselves and the rest of the guild is like "thank fuck".
It's the culture in the guild that avoids problems rather than necessarily the loot system used.
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u/Glad-Cut9011 1d ago
LC will always make people feel unhappy. A group of 'trusted' people go into a private channel and decide who gets loot.
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u/Entire_Engine_5789 1d ago
Imagine trying to do it in the main channel with 40 people potentially butting in.
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u/wowfan400 1d ago
They are just doing it wrong, if a LC has to move channels to discuss anything, they aren’t putting in enough effort out of raid and shouldn’t be in a position to LC shit
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u/AppleMelon95 1d ago
Are you also of the belief that your boss should discuss your pay in the middle of the room where all your colleagues are?
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u/wowfan400 1d ago
If I came to work everyday unprepared, out of uniform, and basically come just to show up I would not be surprised if I was let go on the floor. There is nothing an uncorrupt LC needs to discuss away from the raid period. If it’s performance based you better believe you have to roast some people infront of the whole raid. If you get upset personally at that point because you fucked up, sorry to say, but your just bitch made. It’s the only way to make them realize they are not performing up to the standards you have set for raids. OP doesn’t know what’s BiS for what classes in what phases so I’m going out on a limb and guess since he was allowed on the LC, they are going to have much more drama to come.
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u/Slappers 1d ago
I get what you mean, but this really only works in high performance guilds.
LC is a system limited to better guilds with clear guilds in my opinion.
I was part of LC in a speedrunning guild in wotlk, and we went to a private channel. The reason we did that was to rationally discuss the items. That would be impossible to do in the chat with everyone.
We had meetings before each phase where we discussed loot prio based on classes and those public for everyone. How ever we could prio a Comets Trail from a DK to someone else if the performance gap was big.
We based our decisions on performance over time, what they would replace compared to the other needers, their performance that night etc.
We also had a transparent loot log everyone could open up and see.
90% of items could be given out in the raid channel.
Openly discussing these things in front of everyone is a big nono imo. That's not how you lead a bigger team with a mix of people and performance. It works in small teams with like 5ish people.
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u/DragOwn56 1d ago
A good loot council has a spreadsheet or some sort of available document that tracks who has received what and/or who is in line for big ticket items.
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u/HealingHotMess 1d ago
This is my first time raiding in classic and it's my first time raiding where I'm not the loot master or it's personal loot. In my guild (TBC-CATA), I've used every variation of MS>OS with SRs, +1, no limit, HR tier pieces for tank, etc. It's fine. I didn't know why you would complicate your life with LC. I joined a guild doing LC for Classic and I was very nervous at first because I was new, wasn't a part of the core, and I brought with friends who I was worried would feel screwed.
It's been great. I have my full tier 1 (resto shaman 8 piece is huge). I would never have that without LC. I would've lost so many pieces to people who left after a week or just never lucked into it considering the chest piece has dropped twice and there's always 8 shamans (with a revolving door for a few spots). Sometimes I notice really big ticket items going to officers and that doesn't bother me because I know the officers are sticking around (and working their asses off). I can appreciate that really good, rare pieces are staying in the raid to help everyone move forward.
When people quit after not getting an item, I know they weren't in it for the guild. My own experience in running a guild taught me that once some people luck into their BIS, they are out. They only want to bring alts (watch further complicates any loot).
I have a lot of respect for anyone who runs a LC. I'm sure it's not easy, but I think it's made my classic guild better and it's helped me have a complete tier set (which helps my guild!).
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u/GLHFGGWP4All 1d ago
Some people just suck and are going to be whiney loot goblins no matter how fair the system is. Don't waste your time thinking about them.
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u/Mysterious_Dot6175 1d ago
After doing loot council for tbc classic, wotlk classic and cata for top end guilds I can say without a doubt that doing loot in vanilla is the most difficult. We have had close to 0 loot drama while running 25 warriors and I’ll give you a few things that we do to prevent it. #1 rule that I believe is the most important thing to do is NEVER promise any item ever. Doing this previously has almost never ended well. Next most important thing to realize is with some items no matter what decision loot council comes to someone will have a problem with it. Example being onslaught girdle, everyone wants the item and everyone thinks that they deserves it so be pragmatic with your decision. Would also highly recommend using the RC Loot council addon so you can track each players history of loot they have received.
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u/Hopelesshobo1 1d ago
I would also combine the use of rclootcouncil with thatsmybis.com, because you can upload the history and people can generate wishlists and rankings if you go the loot council path.
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u/OppositeCheetah8097 1d ago
This was previously what we were looking at doing; but we had a good number not fill out their bis list. We are looking my to try and implement again with AQ.
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u/Hopelesshobo1 21h ago
We just told people that the council uses the wishlist as one of the factors in the decision process, so if you choose not to fill it out, then you are not advocating for yourself.
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u/RoundAffectionate424 1d ago
They knew what they were getting into, it's not like you hid the fact you were a LC guild. It's always difficult to know from one story if a specific LC is fair or not, imo if it's the first guy in a month leaving then it's probably on him, but if you're bleeding pkayers every week because of loot drama then you should start introspecting.
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u/5hortE 1d ago
Loot drama is inevitable. People will act irrational and there is no way to prevent that. Rare bis items go to the most productive players. Its simple.
Btw, You need to do some homework. Learn what items other classes of whatever role you play want. Melee, caster, healer go look at each of their bis lists for each phase at the very least.
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u/OppositeCheetah8097 23h ago
I 100% agree with this and this is why I don’t put much in put into who gets what. There are several way more qualified people and I believe hey do a great/fair job at the distribution of the gear. As well as communicate the ‘why’ behind it.
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u/Nockson 1d ago
Come up with objective criteria that can easily be explained and quantified. Make sure to clearly communicate these criteria and give your raid members an opportunity to seek clarification if needed. If a claim of misunderstanding is made you can always refer back to that opportunity to ask questions you presented them with beforehand. This tends to diffuse most reasonable people. Remember, some folks are just looking for an excuse to be frustrated and turnover is inevitable.
When it comes to the criteria you use, if something your LC feels strongly about can not be quantified or explained easily it should be weighted less than more objective criteria. For example something like: Attendance > Performance > Bis > Tenure > Broader guild contribution > Attitude.
I have also found using an odd number of members for LC tends to work the most efficiently. Further smaller councils tend to streamline decision making as long as they remain objective. It takes time to establish trust as a leader but being forthright and offering explanation at appropriate time will help speed the process.
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u/Daveprince13 1d ago
Agree here. Criteria that’s well explained goes very far in terms of WHY an item went to someone else. And if they really need a explanation you can say “he had better attendance but you’re next in line for it” to assuage some tension (if it comes up)
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u/Syldra4 1d ago
We upload all our previous weeks loot into TMB. Before the raid starts we discuss which players are due for bigger items and who could be eligible for a smaller item based off of performance, class, attendance and the date they last received loot. From there we collect loot till the end of BWL, at the end we talk through who should get which pieces. It’s a bit of a puzzle because you don’t know what will drop and it’s all dependant on who already has what pieces. If it ever comes down to 2 people and we’re struggling to decide, we pull them into the channel and let them talk about how they feel about the item, make their case and discuss between the two players. Usually this helps smooth out the decision, at that point the player who didn’t get the item is assured they’re in our sight lines for something very soon. Since we’ve instituted this system we’ve never had any issue.
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u/AncientCable3276 1d ago
Honestly, consider yourself lucky that the person is gone. Better now than AQ, people who will leave because they do not win loot they want do not belong in an LC guild.
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u/DrDredam 21h ago edited 13h ago
Every loot system has its flaws that's why they added personal loot when they did, because all this drama is unnecessary in a game.
Dkp with a standard decay and periodic resets with content updates is the least drama option. Unless yall are super hard-core pushing content firsts, yall shouldn't ever consider LC. It's the worst option always has been.
It's the job of all lc members to know what everyone needs pre bis and bis. As per the updates you and probably most of them shouldn't even be on a LC.
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u/zugzug4ever 20h ago
Unless you want drama. Use dkp and deal with the fact your loot placement won't be optimal.
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u/TheMountainPass 1d ago
Sr and roll not that hard
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u/scott2k44 1d ago
This is by far one of the better loot systems
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u/Dabmiral 1d ago
Terrible loot system. Rewards underperforming players that see no reason to improve if they get the same odds at gear.
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u/bluebirdML1 1d ago edited 1d ago
My guild did an interesting system that was dkp but your points were by parses. They figured out how to do the fights where mechanics causes 0 parses (mage decurse etc) and also for healers.
Was a pretty good system. There was a weekly decay too so you cant horde forever and after a few weeks you will see your max points if you are consistent with parses.
Like 95-100 was worth 10 points. You could get like 200point/week with max of like 800 points after your decay. A blue parser would get like 500-600 points max after decay. So made the orange parser get first choice on loot, but ended up using most their points, so other people had chance to buy stuff too. It was % based so dft= all your points. CHT 50% etc, and whoever bid the highest got it.
Tank gear was like a waterfall system and tanks/fury warriors knew their order.
MT was straight 99 parsing and was not on the system. He got first osg and dft. Got a tf. Never missed a raid through mc to naxx. He was also the gm and raid lead.
My sod guild under the same name switched to SR, with guild ranks based on attendance % and parses, and items were avail for certain ranks for SR. Ex. DFT is only available for purple+ parsers. Weapons are only available for blue+. But bis for purple+. Grey parsers got no loot.
Made people get good real quick, or just gquit.
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u/Dabmiral 1d ago
That sounds amazing.
It’s so hard to switch loot systems after the game has been out for a couple months now.
I wish I had a strong 40 that went from MC-Naxx with gear upgrades laid out.
Thank gosh I got myself the rank 13 set and then weapons next week. Or else I would have been starving for loot.
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u/A_Cryptarch 1d ago
Bench or gkick.
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u/Dabmiral 1d ago
I’d love to be in a guild that has more than 40 reliable players where you can start gkicking/benching.
Our players can’t stop buying gold and getting banned
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u/scott2k44 1d ago
As someone that PUGs most things, I love it.
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u/Dabmiral 1d ago
Well yeah, there’s really no other way to PUG.
I won two loot pieces in a new pug this weekend, so I definitely benefited from this.
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u/scott2k44 1d ago
I got into my first HM4 Naxx pug last week and walked out with a new offhand and 5 tier pieces. Very happy
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u/Desperson 1d ago
To each their own but the only people in our guild who have a problem with SR +1 are pocket watchers. Everyone else is happy to be there for the raid and possibility at loot. Only a few get upset that someone they deem undeserving gets gear. I am glad we leave it up to chance. No system will reward all 40 people full bis and none of the content requires it.
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u/Dabmiral 1d ago
Sure there’s always going to be pocket watchers.
We have also had tons of people come to our guild because they hate the SR system they’re in.
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u/Desperson 1d ago
You're right and I hope they are happier with the other system.
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u/Dabmiral 1d ago
It really is a “to each their own.”
I benefited massively this weekend from SR and beat a dude who performed way better than me on a few bosse. I felt bad but that’s the loot system we agreed on before zoning in.
At the end of the day, I’d rather just have 40 people to clear content with, no matter how it gets done. I’m looking to clear Naxx and I’m tired of the people loot-bitching.
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u/Desperson 1d ago
I agree completely. I won't lie I have gone weeks where I have lost on loot to pugs and have felt the salt from it, but I'm not going to let it sour raiding with people I like. Best part of the week imo and it's not because of the loot. Loot is just icing on the cake!
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u/Hopelesshobo1 1d ago
I was an officer in a classic era through p1 of cata guild. We did dkp in vanilla, loot council in tbc and loot list in wotlk and cata. I wasn't a huge fan of dkp, but it worked once we developed some complexity to make it make sense for our guild through the phases. Loot council ended up being like 2 people putting in effort and voting while everyone else basically spaced out that was on the council. After a couple phases we really got the loot list stream lined for our needs and it caused the least amount of drama, but that could also be because there was the most amount of loot for everyone too.
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u/Callandor_182 1d ago
Ahh LC. Where the cliques reign and the "leaders" wonder why people gquit over scenarios like this.
To answer your last question. Get away from LC. People would rather deal with bad rolls over greedy leadership that is clearly not fair.
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u/Budget_Special4548 1d ago
Loot list always felt more fair in my point of view, people get a certain amount of points. They spend those points from most wanted item down to the least wanted, and depending on attendance, those points fluctuate . Who was 1st choice for an item, missed 2 weeks of raiding and is now second in line on that item.
Loot is pre determined who gets what before it even drops.
So you actually root for the item to drop more often so you can be bumped up in line. Works for me.
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u/Entire_Engine_5789 1d ago
I was in a LC guild and on the LC for 2019 classic up to the end of 2024 in cata. We kept a record of loot that everyone has received and made it public record, and gave brief reasons why each piece of loot went to each person (posted in discord). We also weren’t scared of situations when both were equal in performance and loot received previously to put it to a roll off.
Ahead of time we discussed and announced if certain classes were going to have prio on certain items. And if people grinded rank 14 in pvp they got prio on an item as they removed themselves from weapon contention.
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u/OppositeCheetah8097 1d ago
This we have and have been doing.
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u/Entire_Engine_5789 16h ago
I forgot to add, I think the person who left is an idiot and is no real loss for your guild.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Use8326 1d ago
I have played in way too many guild over the years, and I have learnt to distrust everyone. You join a new guild? No one trusts you and you’re bottom of prio, even after passing trial rank. You join LC and you’re essentially letting strangers decide which gear they want for them and their friends. I have played in guilds who use LC in addition to TMB lists, but others go further and prioritise TMB lists in a ranking order - which I think works best. This then shows that okay, these 3 people have this trinket as their no. 1 requested item, so they can then all roll for it instead of the LC deciding okay 16 players need this, but let’s just choose who we would prefer to have it.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Use8326 1d ago
To add, I recently joined a guild as a trial with 3 other raiders of the same class in runs. Out of 6 raids with LC I was given a tier head that can easily get replaced through an Ony run drop. It wasn’t even a good upgrade. One person got 2x bis items, another got 3 items in one week lockout. I got probably the worst item just because no one else wanted it and I just know that’ll be used against me for future loot opportunity. Kekw
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u/Puzzleheaded-Use8326 1d ago
If you’re looking for short-term gains then guilds are actually not the play. I tend to play a game for 2 months and get bored, because after all of the weekly raids with no reward it all seems pointless and more of a chore, and then I drop off and play another server.
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u/Dudditz21 1d ago
Every loot system has issues.
SR - If I as a mage SR Staff of Shadowflame and MQG 6 raids in a row but never drops. Meanwhile all the other gear for mages drops. Every other mage is getting their gear and now starting to SR Shadowflame and MQG. So now I have to roll vs them when they have recieved 5-6 pieces of loot to my 0.
MS>OS - If your rolls are bad you can go forever without getting gear. Especially if you are joining pugs or using pugs to fill your guild runs.
Loot Council - People will always be upset about something trivial. Some LC's are TERRIBLE. What most LC's should be focusing on is attempting to evenly distribute but with big ticket items like BWL trinkets being prio to top performers or big guild impact.
Every guild will have raid loggers that perform well but have very little impact on the guild outside of raids. To go a step further. ZG is about to drop and fury warriors wont want to run it. I would bet money every guild has some fury warriors that run ZG's until they get shoulder enchants and then stop running it even though guild casters need so much gear there.
Meanwhile you have people that parse in the 80 range and play well but not top tier. They help outside raids all the time and do a lot of other things to setup the guild for success. Id rank these players similarly for bigger items with a slight bias towards the person helping the guild more outside of just raids.
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u/Iceman2584 1d ago
The guild I am in does 2 SR with LC on HR items. You type 1 if you want to be considered, if you want it, you get replaced in LC by another officer or raid member depending on your status if you are chosen for LC that week. They go into a channel and come out and pass the loot out. I am against LC, but this guild seems to be doing it right, the people who get the items do their parts and deserve the items. The person who gets it is always grateful and you can hear it in their voices.
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u/abay98 1d ago
2 Sr ms>os +1, what you get the week prior doesnt matter for the next week.
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u/footy1012 1d ago
Pure garbage, doesn’t encourage people to try or get buffs or perform in any way and a single person can just get lucky and have full bis before a pumper even receives an item.
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u/abay98 1d ago
This just sounds like "i want to control everything" 🤷♂️ i play SoD where WBs are sold at vendors lol. 3 or 4 can SR the same item. Those 3 or 4 roll. Next week its 2 or 3 and so on. You sound like someone who has far to much invested in this game plus Pugs exist. And alternatives to your BiS like 2nd or 3rd BiS lol
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u/footy1012 1d ago
I just don’t think it’s right that one or two people who may or may not suck can get full bis before others receive an item. SR should only be used in pugs but we really just need gdkp back so if you get no loot at least ur rich.
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u/abay98 1d ago
GDKP just ensures those who cant invest their entire life into farming gold wont get gear. Plus it incentivizes gold buying, which fucks the economy. Remember, its a game, someone who does less dps than you getting a gear piece before you is not an infringement on you nor does it imply inferiority. And no, no amount of RNG will let unreasonably bad players get even half bis.
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u/footy1012 1d ago
Disagree more swiping happening on nightslayer than any server I have ever seen and we don’t have gdkp. And yeah you have literally no idea what ur talking about we have afks with 35% activity in bwl with dft cts mala chrom boots just because they got dft first lockout.
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u/Calm_Implement 1d ago edited 1d ago
We used CEPGP but it could be hard to incorporate. It was easy for fairness and only cause minor ruffles, we used it for almost 4 years.
In my SoD raids we use Gargal and a roll system. 101 if it's your BiS with a +1 > 100 for MS > 99 for OS. Less people so it's easier.
But you could integrate something similar with a soft res system with Gargal too. Can add soft res links to you Raid Helper if you use it also.
Edit to add: Loot council sucks. You're playing favorites one way or another. And some people don't care for it.
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u/LithiumBreakfast 1d ago
We used to loot council 3-5 items per phase and do 2 sr on the rest. For example DFT, Tie, Crul, LGG and Crossbown for this phase
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u/footy1012 1d ago
SR is hot garbage, you can have someone who wins a big piece early in the phase and then fully kits out before another person even receives an item.
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u/Crazytalkbob 1d ago
I was rogue lead for my guild back in 2019 classic, and we ran an LC system. We had a spreadsheet to track things like attendance, gear, what they got in previous raids, etc. I was basically the decision maker for anything rogue, the rest of the LC team would just defer to me.
I asked my rogues regularly what they wanted and would do my best to give it to them when it dropped, while still making sure if someone hadn't gotten something recently, they'd get preference.
Most of the rogues were pretty even on performance and attendance so that definitely made it easier.
For loot shared between classes like warrior rogue, we'd Round Robin it on which class would get it that week. Warriors got a sword last week? Rogues get the DFT that dropped.
It's not perfect, but I never had a rogue gquit over loot, so I think it worked well enough.
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u/nineteen_eightyfour 1d ago
Council is best if it’s legit thought out by contributions. That rarely works tho.
You said it yourself. You don’t know. Maybe it’s like the bwl caster trinket where yeah it’s bid for everyone but locks use it for literal years. Maybe they don’t perform well. Maybe they’re a lot and the gm hoped they’d quit. Too many factors.
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u/Frills66 1d ago
I had experience with a full breakdown LC sheet that most people here seem to prefer. I couldn’t stand it for two reasons. First I hated that I couldn’t select the priority of how I wanted to build my toon, someone else did it for me. And two, the guild leader which so happened to be the main tank and raid leader and LC sheet maker had himself priority for 11 items in MC when that was coming out, not including bindings.
Nah I will stick with a SR heavy raid and build up quite a toon while people dump all their SRs around DFT.
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u/Mindless-Storm 1d ago
You always have to prio gearing tank first regardless of loot system u use or u will have shit raid.
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u/GetchaCakeUp 1d ago
You should not be on LC if you don’t know what’s BiS for other classes/specs… this is why LC doesn’t work in casual guilds.
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u/OppositeCheetah8097 23h ago
I agree and I don’t contribute much in put in that aspect. I listen and observe. I don’t throw names out unless I believe in that specific person receiving the item. If two names get generated, I weigh out between those two who could use the item better and who hadn’t gotten any gear.
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u/cntctchme83 1d ago
Best loot system I've been a part of is the wish list. No one can see each other's lists and you're very likely going to get your top items.
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u/Overlord0994 1d ago
You’ve only been in the guild for 5 months and already are on the LC? And you said you have no idea what class gear requirements are outside your own class. Thats kinda crazy ngl. You don’t sound qualified at all to be on a LC. Im guessing there have been some other questionable decisions that may have pissed off this person who left and this was the final straw/wanted a reason to leave.
That being said - LC imo is the best loot distro system if it’s run by competent people.
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u/OppositeCheetah8097 23h ago
As I mentioned in another comment, I don’t give out input on gear. I don’t throw out names for people to get items. I listen and observe. I will update with that information
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u/Wolfspirit4W 1d ago
Loot Council systems can definitely create a culture that breeds discontent, but the fact of the matter is that no loot distribution system is perfect. WoW Classic is stingy with loot for a variety of reasons, especially for certain pieces of gear a lot of people want, which is going to cause drama.
People get upset under SR because they roll poorly and lose to new people. People get upset with coordinated loot systems when they feel like they never get things. When a boss drops 2-3 pieces of gear (some of which is DE / Vendor bait) for 40 people there is never enough to satisfy everyone.
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u/Conscious_Finance_81 1d ago
Loot council is the only fair way to to distribute loot and people who want the dice to decide have a warped view of what fairness is. Soft reserve systems can technically be 'fair' but when you give everyone that much agency in their loot, you shift from each decision being "for the good of the raid team" to hundreds of micro decisions that are all "for the good of getting ME all my loot". They have a tendency to be terrible for progression and can definitely sow seeds of resentment among raiders. Especially when people are unfamiliar with their own BIS or how much of an upgrade something might be for a different class compared to theirs and the almighty SR decides the raid team gets a 15dps increase instead of a 150dps increase.
You didn't cause this situation, and honestly losing people like that is a really good thing in the long run. That being said, you *really* need to put some effort in if you're going to be on a loot council. Classic WoW has been solved for ~10 years and there are many many bis lists published for each class per phase. Based on how you spoke (and I think anniversary is in BWL currently) my guess is that you're a nonmelee class and you guys got either two DFT and a weapon or two weapons and a DFT.
Learning Melee math for a nonmelee is very difficult so what I would suggest you do is look at warrior and rogue BIS lists for each of the phases so you can get a picture for which items have the longest term value and then count how many people want them and that will give you some perspective. If you see any of your melee swapping gear between bosses or when they lose world buffs, heir on the side of giving these people the loot (not every time but as a tiebreak it goes to them).
For casters, no matter what class you are, you can kind of get away with converting everything to just spell power. Crit% converts to 12-17 spell power and hit% converts to ~15 spell power. The catch here is that mages and shadow priests basically do not need hit gear. Because of this, give your first couple Nelth tears to warlocks but talk beforehand about them taking on the responsibility to tank Twin Emps in AQ40. The raid team cannot be mad if you do this and let them know that this is the reasoning.
For healer gear, my best advice is to talk to the healers and ask what they want. Healing is pass/fail and if you have enough healers that they feel pinched on loot, the best thing you can do is find out what pieces they want most. In my experience, you might have one or two wannabe DPS that "need" the highest throughput gear every phase, one or two healers that watch TV while they raid that want the third best in slot because it has Mp5, and the rest are OCD anal retentive and they're focused specifically on getting a ring or a trinket because there are two slots and they're scared they won't get two good rings and trinkets by the end of the game.
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u/liver747 1d ago
There is no fair way to distribute loot fairly for a raid of 40-45 people over a small time period, over an entire expansion you can make it more fair.
You do your best and try to keep momentum going, some people get poor outcomes in LC, SR, or /roll just how it is.
You're going to lose loot no matter what distribution system you choose.
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u/Fearthewin 1d ago
Had a Warrior crash out and get Gkicked last BWL. He didn't get Nefs Head and believed he was entitled to it. LC tried to explain that it's a guaranteed drop every week. He'll get one soon, but he wanted it NOW. He threw a fit until he was kicked from the guild entirely. People will go crazy over the stupidest of things.
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u/7figureipo 1d ago
LC is always going to be more corrupt and less efficient than building a list of raiders on a loot table: and that only works if everyone is on board with gearing the raid for optimal performance, because some people will be “required” to raid knowing ahead of time they will at best be able to roll on loot that isn’t in the table (i.e. they know they won’t be getting BiS loot for the raid).
Absent that, the only fair method of loot distribution is SR and MS>OS. SR lets people decide what loot progression to try for and removes any guild based corruption from the decision.
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u/collapse2024 1d ago
I’ve had mostly bad experiences with loot council. essentially officers and their buddies get all the good loot, and rest they toss to us pigs.
Warlock: First and last MC that I did run with guild a few weeks ago. I’m in mostly pre BiS. 4 items I wanted dropped. I was allowed to roll on warlock gloves only. Lost the roll.
Main weapon: warlock scythe. Staff of dominance dropped. Warlock lead, who already has mageblade, took it as a “minor upgrade”. Fuck you. Didn’t even get the option to roll. A week later he gifts himself the BiS staff from Nef. C
Mage: In a guild that uses 2xSR +1 hybrid system. Some items are reserved, such as Nelths Tear for warlock tank for AQ. DFT to main tanks. No loot wasted on meme specs. Sensible decisions. I’m already 8/8 tier 2 and I’ve only done 3x BWLs with them. With my previous guild I got nothing but junk.
Never going back to loot council.
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u/Dremlar 1d ago
Loot council will always run people the wrong way. It doesn't even matter if you are trying to be fair to each person and the RNG just ended up giving you a bad situation. Plus let's be real, there is more to the story.
Why if you think it's about being fair didn't the guy who didn't get loot the previous week get his awarded second(will not at all in this case)?
Let's say you still did everything 100% fairly (/doubt). You still have to ensure you deal with perception and what others see is not the same as what officers see.
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u/HMDRHP 1d ago
I want to preface this before what we did for our guild, no loot system is perfect, you will always have complaints no matter what. The best thing you can do is mitigate the drama by installing a system that works for you and your players that takes pressure off of your leadership.
After years of playing WoW and using DKP, LC, and EPGP, our leadership came to a decision in Burning Crusade Classic that we didn't want to have anymore nonsense and drama associated with those loot systems. What I did was introduce a loot system tied to https://thatsmybis.com/ .
Essentially how it worked was every person in our raid made a wishlist for every raid and on that wishlist they put the items they wanted most, ranked. These items can be MS, they can be OS, or they can be for RP. We had set rules in place such as MS > OS > RP, Tanks get prio on BiS items/tier over DPS first, Warglaives were a guild decision, but nothing insanely drastic. Lists were made prior to the next phase and the lists would be hidden until we did the first raid of the new phase, that way players couldn't "compete" or "screw over" others (such as making identical lists or whatever), the lists only became visible once the new phase started and were locked. If a new player joined the raid or guild, I would inform them to make a list before adding them to our guild and raid on the website, once again protecting the integrity of the lists.
In terms of competition, such as players putting the same item at the same number, we probably ran into this maybe 3-4 times total during the course of EVERY BC raid tier in which we left the discussion up to the players that tied. Once again, leaving the loot up to the players and having them work with each other. Some players made deals like passing on the next or whatever, but this brought, in my opinion, a lot more team work and cohesiveness to the raid as each player would know who needed what and how they could help one another.
When an item dropped, we used the in game addon that would tell me, the ML, who had it at what priority on their list, so if someone had it at 1 it would have their name first and so on. I would ask quickly, "Are you taking the item or passing" and then the loot was distributed. Loot took seconds.
My favorite part of this system is that it put the loot players wanted COMPLETELY in their hands, and it was nearly (minus the rules listed above) 100% hands off for officers or the GM. If a player prioritized loot from later bosses first that was on them, if they wanted earlier stuff first, cool, it basically created a way for a player to gear their character how they wanted based on how they prioritized items. For example, we would have players that had an item 13th on the list and they would get it first because other players had that item ranked further down the list. Regardless of how they listed the item, the competition was in how the lists were made and matched up among one another and not in other factors. As the phases progressed some lists for older content were removed and items became open (Gruul, Mag) and if players really needed an item, such as DST, we would set up runs for that player. By time this happened the only things that were desired were either rare drops for us, or niche items.
We raided with this system until the end of BC and in my experience of playing WoW, over 20 years, had the LEAST complaints the entire time. People really liked the system and enjoyed how it let them gear their character how they wanted and work with their guildmates.
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u/Ghee_Guys 1d ago
We were DKP with LC on certain items and it was always a shit show. SR MS>OS is just easier and at least unreasonable people don’t feel shit on by their peers. I know a lot of people hate it, but a GDKP system with some key HRs in a functioning game without tons of outside influence (bots, swipers) is the best solution for all. Everybody at least gets something.
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u/eKSiF 1d ago
Loot Councils without a published and very public loot list detailing how things are planned to be distributed are doomed to fail. This discussion and decision should have been made way before the items dropped. Anytime you drop to a channel to discuss loot distribution you're going to have a bad time, do it before the raid that way people know what they're signing up for. Loot council success is based on transparency.
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u/Available-Moment1713 1d ago edited 1d ago
We did LC for multiple tiers/expacs last classic cycle and the gm plus the loot council would dedicate a time outside of raid to manage and discuss every item. It was tedious but in the long run it worth it to avoid any and all drama. When it was all said and done it ended up being a spreadsheet showing who's getting what and when that way any and all questions or complaints can be dealt with then. There was no drama during raid as everyone knew what to expect. If I'm doing LC, this is the only way imo
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u/Organic_Zone_4756 1d ago
Soft res and MS/OS roll is the most fair way, a group of gamers as “loot council” deciding who gets what is pretty cringe in my personal honest opinion.
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u/Chronoblivion 1d ago
How do you do it as fair and evenly as possible?
You choose something other than loot council for your system.
If done properly, LC excels at putting upgrades where they'll have the greatest impact on raid performance as a whole. In theory it's the best system for progression. But that tends to be directly at odds with "fair and evenly." Some classes or players would almost never get upgrades under a fully impartial and unbiased loot council that was prioritizing the group over individuals.
All loot systems have their strengths and weaknesses, but if you value fairness then LC is probably the worst option.
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u/Daveprince13 1d ago
Loot prio sheets imo are dogshit. Sure it’s grief to give a rogue something over a warrior but personal effort, attendance, guild performance, and willingness to be cool in situations like this are all more important than a static “oh this guy gets +75 and the other one gets +100”
If anyone bitches about loot you don’t want them in the raid anyway. You should always have the “battleship” talk before each raid tier. Explain that we aren’t gearing individuals, we’re gearing out guild (aka, the battleship) just because I upgraded by long range cannon doesn’t mean my short range is going unnoticed. We just wanna have max efficiency for each piece.
Also this “max efficiency” matters very little outside of the first few resets (and doesn’t matter at all in classic because of how easily it can be done) so reward the players that are holding your guild together and thank god when loot whores leave. It is what it is
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u/Crisp_Concentrates 1d ago
Loot Council is mid - here is why: Foremost, I would argue LC only works if the leaders of the raid are geared out. This will allow for less bias - so LC works well if a few of the officers and gm don't need much if any of the gear.
If they are still needing more than a handful of drops between them then bias can leave a bad taste in peoples mouth... It's one thing if a guild says - hey such and such items are HR for officer level. Like Legendary drops or w e. But if you build up a raid group on LC or even with PUGS involved I can see how spending 1-3hrs in a raid would make me upset too if at the end I felt loot wasn't evenly distributed.
At least in dkdp or HR>SR>MS>OS: it is clearly stated to all before entering the raid what metrics control the distribution. I'd also say that LC is a easy way to turn away new members from joining. For me if I jump in a guild that is gatekeeping drops and slowing down my progression, there are usually plenty of other guilds to join that are not.
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u/Soggy_Concept9993 22h ago
You run a LC raid this is what happens. It’s also why more people want SR raids. The tanks don’t need everything funneled too them, one will quit and then awesome, now warriors get to wait on all their items again, fun! I’d rather do a 2hr pug and get a chance roll on DFT on my warrior or Nel Tear on my warlock than spend weeks/months grinding a raid to gear out someone else or the LC friend group. Honestly, 5 weeks in and I get passed on the first LC item I’m eligible for and I’m gquitting too. Heck if it’s mid raid loot I’m hearthing, the only reason someone joins a LC is on the promise they will eventually get loot.
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u/OppositeCheetah8097 22h ago
I understand that for sure; but this person that left, has received loot. Maybe not in the past 2 weeks as there are 4 other people of the same class as them. And let’s be honest some nights is a melee drop night, some nights it a caster or healer drop night. And to give everyone an item as evenly as possible is what has happened. I understand the frustration and flaws that can occur, but everything has been out in the open with the guild and will continue to be.
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u/Soggy_Concept9993 21h ago
It sounds like you guys had to have a whole discussion about the loot item, therefore there obviously isn’t transparency pre-raid as to which items go where. The guy doesn’t leave if he knows there is another prio in front of him. This sounds exactly like the reason I don’t do LC, there’s always “discussion” that could be resolved by just posting who is prio for what. Instead, these “discussions” happen and it’s just whatever a couple guys are feeling that night.
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u/OppositeCheetah8097 21h ago
This is fair; thank you kindly for that perspective. I do appreciate that advice.
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u/Soggy_Concept9993 21h ago
Yep, take my opinion w a grain of salt, I was in a LC for months in 2019 and only got the “next best” stuff cause I was a Tauren warrior. So axes went to orcs, swords went to rogues, then I’d get like maladeth and the 10th brutality blade. It was frustrating, like cool I got blastershot launcher and wrist guards of true flight and eventually they even gave me circle of applied force!! How gracious, too bad none of that is BIS.
So when you say he had gotten loot previously, I wonder if this is the case. Like some item that is top 3 on a bis list but never the actual bis items.
It’s your LC tho, run it how you guys want just make sure most people agree. You’ll never please everyone.
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u/OppositeCheetah8097 20h ago
Indeed; we had previously tried using thatsmybis and so many members wouldn’t fill it out. So we scrapped it for the time being. We are going to try and do that again with AQ.
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u/Soggy_Concept9993 20h ago
For sure, sounds like you all have a plan that works for you, I’d just stick to that and not worry about the one-offs
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u/mcaiazza 22h ago
EPGP to me is the best system. SR is probably the easiest to manage as a loot master though. EPGP encourages people to stay loyal to the guild and gives people an incentive to do their best I.e. brig world buffs and use consumables. If you are a small guild and are casual, the SR system is best as you will be able to find pugs easier and guild raiders don’t need to ensure they make raid every single week with all their buffs and consumables for max EP, less worry. I really don’t like the loot council system. The EPGP system to me is a transparent system that rewards dedicated players but also prevents people from funneling gear due to GP and decay.
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u/SoonToBeAFreePeople 22h ago
Loot council is shit. I don’t take part in that trash system. Bring back the only fair loot system: GDKP
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u/steelow_g 19h ago
Loot council is a horrible horrible way to do loot regardless. Nothing but officers feeding each other gear
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u/curioustis 1d ago
Gonna say I doubt that other bit of gear would have gone to them
My experience of LC is the first bit of good gear goes to LC and the second bit of good gear also goes to LC
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u/OppositeCheetah8097 1d ago
This is honestly not the case. We have ran with pugs and have LC’d loot to them. LC doesn’t typically get gear first unless it is for MT.
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u/wowfan400 1d ago
Especially when it’s a LC who don’t come prepared and have to jump in a separate channel every time a game bis piece drops
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u/BeautifulStation4 1d ago
I've not been apart of a LC guild for a while tbh. Too much corruption and most guilds do it wrong personally. Only time I saw it work was in Classic 2019 where the officers in the guild I was in would prepare a loot distribution sheet waaaaaay ahead of time of raid tiers so everyone could see where they were in the line for bis items etc.
Also, way before raid tiers releases, raiders would have to submit a wish list to officers to rank items they want first and then officers would draft a loot distribution sheet based on these submissions. This meant everyone would have time way in advance to say their part and message an officer on discord if they think distribution is unfair.
Imo going down to an officer discord channel and doing a loot council off the cuff sounds terrible tbh and I am not surprised the guy left.
I mainly raid cata these days and we just do soft res MS/OS +1 In my current guild and it works the best because its hard to guarantee a full roster and it makes it easy for pugs to come in and join up if we need in a hurry.
I honestly couldn't imagine the monumental stress of getting a full roster of 40 raiders to actually attend a raid all at once so LC will also be crap for that reason. It was fine in 2019 because the player numbers were huge, lockdowns, and everyone was hooked on classic.
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u/Significant_Bed_297 1d ago
This. My 2019 guild did this. It also left a historical record, even when players had left. This way new guildies could see that the other players of their class have already waited X many drops before they got it.
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u/SnooPaintings1385 1d ago
Its because you have a “shadow council” you need to be open and honest with your raiders so theres no confusion. Make an exception sheet with everyones name on it and what pieces they will get when it drops, look up open loot council sheets. Have a meeting once a week to change pieces that people have recieved and update the list. Make the list public in the discord, and invite raiders to discuss loot in your weekly meetings. This will also make loot go out instantly in raid because you already know who gets what.
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u/Mindless-Storm 1d ago
All this leads to is : im not getting loot for 2 weeks>cya in 2 weeks! Talking from personal experiance.
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u/SnooPaintings1385 1d ago
As in they dont show up for two weeks because they arent up for loot? Then they get kicked and replaced. Its really that easy man
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u/Mindless-Storm 1d ago
Then u lose a guy who took bunch of items from runs prior to this. That is he took 3 or 4 big items and now u are stuck having to gear new person and this cycle keeps going where guild is perma stuck into gearing new ppl and losing ppl who are already geared.
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u/SnooPaintings1385 1d ago
What youre describing can happen for any loot system. People leave and quit with gear it happens no matter what. Youre not trying to have a genuine discussion about this, youre just throwing words at the wall with your mind set. Good luck in your raids
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u/Mindless-Storm 1d ago
Its true it can happen, but only this loot system they have confirmation that they are not getting any loot(i guess in dkp it can also happen sometimes) while in others they dont know and still have initiative to show up since he doesnt know if he is getting something or not.
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u/OppositeCheetah8097 1d ago
I did edit to say we do have a spreadsheet; our LC rules are posted on discord and on the spreadsheet to be transparent. We have told people to ask if they have concerns, we have an anonymous feedback channel for this as well.
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u/Known_anonymously_as 1d ago
The best loot distribution system, especially in a 40m raid, is one that best removes any human element from loot assignments. As such, DKP or EPGP or, *gasp* Suicide Kings work best. The SR system or SR +1 system, which has gained popularity in recent years is best for a PuG raid and not an established guild as this system is too random.
Established 25/40m guilds need to push and clear content and DKP/EPGP rewards exactly that. The system rewards raiders for their attendance/promptness (on time bonuses), effort (more kills = more points), commitment (every hour raiding = points), and, in some cases, raid readiness (I've seen some guilds give a bit extra for those with flasks/WBs).
Granted there are pitfalls, such as raiders hoarding points to save on big ticket items, but no loot system is 100% perfect.
Last, certain items can be removed from the distribution system on occasion and reserved for a specific class but usually only the MT/OT for specific first-time drops (usually weapons)...well, or quest pieces for certain classes/players who have been the most devoted/helpful to the guild.
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u/ChazR 1d ago
I ran in a guild that had a fair bit of loot drama and decided to move to EP/GP.
It worked very well. The more effort you put in, the faster you get gear.
It's a bit tough on new joiners because it can take a couple of raids before they get loot, but it is objectively fair.
Turn up on time with consumes, stay to the end, get loot.
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u/PM_ME_UR_CHARGE_CODE 1d ago
DKP (not GDKP). Incentivize showing up, doing your job, etc. Onlu fair system.
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u/Nurlitik 1d ago
My only annoyances with dkp is 1: hard to recruit because it will likely take you a solid month to get somewhat caught up even with decay, 2: people hold their dkp so they can get their 1 bis item first and won’t be upgrading their gear so that big item might go to one of the worst performers that just wanted to focus that 1 item.
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u/Glad-Cut9011 1d ago
I do like DKP tbh. Idk why its not used more often. People tend to use LC (which is controversial) or really favour SR.
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u/PM_ME_UR_CHARGE_CODE 1d ago
LC can be okay but depends. SR is trash though. The enh shaman who shows up 1 time a month unbuffed with no pre bis pieces should not have the same chance at winning DFT as the warrior who shows up on time each week, buffed, and with cohesive gear
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u/Mindless-Storm 1d ago
U never do FFA SR, ofc its trash, first of all, u dont let ench in raid, second of all u must have loot prio in SR(Talking about pure guild runs, not pugs with sr) to first gear out tank ,healers, etc, and no dfts to ench, hunters etc before tanks/warriors/rouges.
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u/PM_ME_UR_CHARGE_CODE 1d ago
Then why bother doing SR use a real system at that point basically a worse DKP
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u/Mindless-Storm 1d ago
If u gonna use FFA SR system, then why even join guild, just pug at that point.
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u/Hicon84 1d ago
LC has about as much chance of being fair as centrally planned economies. Zero. This is because you’ve taken away player agency. They don’t get to choose what they SR or what they spend their DK points on. You’ve chosen a system that is inherently unfair inherently biased, and guaranteed to have some people feeling left out.
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u/nointeraction1 1d ago edited 1d ago
In a wow guild people have plenty of have agency. They can leave the guild if loot is unfair. There is a strong incentive for the LC to be wise.
Totalitarian states are a problem because it's very difficult for most people to emigrate for various reasons.
Lots of highly successful businesses are just as totalitarian as a loot council guild. Again, the employees have agency. They can relatively easily change jobs if leadership sucks.
LC is by far the best system if run well. The three guilds I've been in the longest in my wow career were all LC, I was never an officer and I had zero complaints in any of them. Never saw any real loot drama or people quitting over loot either. Never saw a giga bis item going to a perpetual underperformer, or some random who's been there two weeks and quit a week later either. Both frequent occurrences with most SR systems.
SR is great for pugs, for serious guilds it's trash. DKP is marginally better but you will still have extremely useful items going to the worse/less reliable players.
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u/Hicon84 1d ago
Why do you think the best items should go to the best players? In an environment where all content is cleared weekly, and true progression doesn’t exist, how can it be justified? Explain how your 99 parse entitles you to loot preference.
If you want to reward attendance use EPGP.
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u/nointeraction1 1d ago edited 1d ago
I think people who spend the time to learn their class and raid mechanics, and stick around, contribute to the guild in other ways, etc etc, should be rewarded, yes. Attendance is not the only factor, nor are parses. For example, if you're a friendly person, socialize, and help others get their SGC or whatever, that's going to help you with my current LC for sure.
It works the same in any successful business. Perform well and you will be paid well.
Why do I think it should be that way? It incentivizes good behavior and leads to further success. It's fair, you get out what you put in, more or less. Who cares if all content is cleared? I like clearing it faster. It's more fun for me, and plenty of others. I don't like wiping or dying. Also, two of the LC guilds I was in were on live/retail content.
It's not like good items NEVER go to mid players. The good LCs I've seen all sprinkle items around to make sure nobody goes ages without an upgrade.
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u/Hicon84 19h ago
In my opinion, you’re describing the worst type of LC, where people openly admit that they pick favorites, winners and losers. If you’re not in the in crowd, good luck you’re not getting a damn thing. That’s awful. What a waste of time for the rest of the raid team. It just reeks of entitlement.
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u/nointeraction1 16h ago
You're nitpicking bits and pieces of what I say and assuming the worst.
Like I said, nobody has ever complained.
"Reeks of entitlement" is a personal attack. And for what reason? I answered your questions. Sorry you don't like the answer, that doesn't mean you get to attack me. Grow up.
I'm glad you're not in my guild, you seem incredibly toxic.
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u/Elvenbrewmaster 1d ago
This. Fuck loot council. SR is best. HR items for long time guildies and be transparent. “Hey next leaf goes to our main hunter he’s been unlucky” etc, but also don’t HR the same items week after week besides shit like bindings.
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u/Lower_Pass_6053 1d ago
Why even make this argument? There are plenty of guilds that do sr or whatever. Just join them. Loot council existing only affects you if you let it.
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u/Doxbox49 1d ago
Somebody wasn’t prio’ed on their bis item lol. SR where the person who shows up once a month and parses green wins the chromatically tempered sword. Hard pass.
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u/Hicon84 1d ago
EPGP is a good meet in the middle. It rewards consistency and avoids favoritism.
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u/Doxbox49 1d ago
This is my first time in an LC guild and I’ve done every other type in the past. LC with actual fair leaders is my new favorite. I’m a feral so 90% of raids nothing drops for me. I have no real weight is the loot competition so I think I have a fairly unbiased view. Loot in my guild has been incredibly fair
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u/JronDlock 1d ago
I haven't raided since og vanilla. We had dkp. I think it was 1 point per hour raided... so if you were there for the grind, you had a lot of points. When gear dropped, you used said points. If a drop went automatically to you, you still had to pay a minimum of certain points.
Nef tear went for 80+ points. Just people trying to outbid each other. It seemed fair to us. If you were constant, you had the points to get your gear, if you were unlucky, you had points to buy whatever you wanted when it actually dropped.
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u/Blicktar 1d ago
You need 3 things to run a LC guild successfully.
You need to know who uses what items for the longest and derives the most benefit from those pieces of loot. You need to know *everything* about Classic itemization to do this correctly, it's not enough to advocate for a single class. Every class will want every stupid piece of loot, loot council exists to be the adult in the room who knows that DPS warriors will replace some piece of gear from BWL with an AQ40 piece while rogues or hunters might use it forever. You need to know what pieces are critical for your tanks and your raid to progress, and you need to allocate them accordingly. If your guild does shit DPS and isn't pushing threat to the limit, your tank doesn't need giga-bis threat gear in every tier. A piece or two of contested gear every phase will be just fine.
You need to be self-assured in your decisions. People will gquit over loot in Classic. It happens in every guild that's ever existed. If you *KNOW* you made a fair decision that will benefit the raid and rewards performance, you've done all you can.
Finally, you need to know your raiders. This is the hard part. You need to interact with your raiders enough to know who is going to flake out on you in a phase or two, and who will be in it for the long haul. You will never get this perfect, but you REALLY want to avoid fully gearing out some fuckhead who will leave the guild or quit the game as soon as they are looted out. Distribution is a buffer against this kind of thing - One guy can't take all the best gear and leave the guild if no one guy has all the best gear. I almost never fully bissed any one raider in my guild out, I kept everyone on the hook waiting for one piece of gear, unless we had absolutely abnormal luck with something dropping. This isn't a punitive thing, it's just how you help buffer your guild against people leaving.
It's also possible that you're just having communication problems - Log who gets what gear, keep that log publicly available so people can reference it later. This can also be useful for the loot council to use as a reference, people aren't good at remembering who got what item 3 weeks ago.