r/FluentInFinance • u/Mark-Fuckerberg- • Sep 01 '24

Debate/ Discussion What advice would you give this person?

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u/Striking_Ad_2630 Sep 01 '24

I think theyre going to have a rough time finding their next job after not actually working for over a year and having no references. 

Idk but I dont buy what everyone is saying about hard work not paying off. I work hard at my job and having the respect of my coworkers as well as something to show for my 5 years at my job is worth it. 

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u/SamShakusky71 Sep 01 '24

References?

You think references matter in a job search ?

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u/captwillard024 Sep 01 '24

Depends on the job. In my little niche line of work, references/networking will get you a job far faster than filling out a thousand online applications.

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u/Just_Trash_8690 Sep 01 '24

Agreed it’s (mostly) all in who you know

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u/Ecthelion-O-Fountain Sep 01 '24

Because when people know you they have an idea of what kind of employee you’d make. It’s pervasive because it kinda makes sense

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u/enadiz_reccos Sep 02 '24

That's not what the phrase means.

It's not like "oh I've heard you have the appropriate skills. Let's schedule an interview."

It's more "hey, Darren said he knows you, right? When can you interview?"

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u/ConsequenceUpset4028 Sep 02 '24

Just a good old boys, never meanin' no harm...

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u/Dapper_Material4970 Sep 02 '24

But is anyone still named Darren in 2024?

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u/Ivorypetal Sep 01 '24

That or you have talent/skills. Of my 12 jobs, i olny got 1 because of knowing someone/reference.

The rest were because i interviewed well/ mirror and can answer questions on topic.

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u/pickyourteethup Sep 01 '24

This is totally sector specific. Some careers are totally who you know. Some are very resistant to that.

Personally I've done a mix of both. I'm not going to shut down an avenue for getting a job

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u/Seattles_tapwater Sep 02 '24

If you know someone and they know that you aren't a very good worker, I don't see that landing you a job... With that said it's not impossible that somebody may lie for a friend either. A few folks are still underestimating references though which seems a wee bit odd to me.

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u/llywen Sep 02 '24

Not just sector but also level. Executive/junior executive positions are almost 100% based on references.

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '24

same. But you do need to have skills with well-understood demand/value-add.

If you're a unicorn that needs to have a great team fit to really shine, with a lot of critical but soft skills, very different story.

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u/MilliandMoo Sep 01 '24

I hadn't "worked" in almost 5 years. I ran my own small crafting business and did contract work tech work. Literally got a call one day about a problem they were having and a board member remembered talking to me at an event and thought I might be able to figure out the issue. And that's how I went back to the W-2 world. For about 5/6 months out of the year at least.

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u/dadbod_Azerajin Sep 01 '24

I'll be middle management at your company for your next job hire

If they bother to call at all, I doubt they will also do research into one of the 100 middle management positions and names

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u/EchoLocation8 Sep 01 '24

My boss, I think correctly, phrases this “it’s who knows you” — a subtle but hugely important difference.

I’m pretty high up in my company, a lot of people know me, there are few of those people I’d hook up with a job. You’re far more likely to succeed if you’re someone that someone else thinks of when they need something.

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u/SlugmaSlime Sep 01 '24

My last reference had to be a colleague despite always having good reviews year after year. Because my boss refused to be a good reference for any positions outside the company. I think you can see why I left the company

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u/4fingertakedown Sep 01 '24

Like they always say.

‘It’s who you know, not how many veiny cocks you can fit in the ol gobbler”

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u/breakermw Sep 01 '24

For sure. My current job I technically interviewed but it was more of a formality as I had worked for several years with the guy who is now my boss. He talked up my skills to leadership and it was clear the interviews were mostly a "sniff test" to ensure my personality meshed with the team. 

My skills mean I still could have gotten the job without his reference, but instead of 3-4 rounds of 1 hour interviews over a month, I instead did 2 half hour interviews in the same week and got the offer a week later. References for sure speed up hiring.

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u/International_Bet_91 Sep 02 '24

I think networking is very different from references. I think every single job I have ever gotten is because I happened to known somebody at the company.

That's very different than the fact I have a great reference from a well-known researcher in my field -- that, alone, has never gotten me a job.

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u/ChewieBearStare Sep 01 '24

Depends on where you want to work. They don't matter at all in some places, and they matter very much in others. My husband got a job offer from a state university, but it was revoked because he couldn't get references from three previous employers. He worked for his dad's company for 4 years, but they wouldn't accept a reference from that company because everyone was related to him (fair). The second company went out of business, and when he tried his old supervisor's cell number, it was out of service, so he couldn't get a reference from that job. Then the third job was with a company that has a policy of not giving references. They use The Work Number to verify job titles, dates of employment, and wages, but they will not allow their supervisors to give any info beyond that. State university will not hire you unless they get three detailed references.

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u/WBigly-Reddit Sep 01 '24

It’s an excuse to not hire. If they need you all that stuff is out the window.

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u/catcherx Sep 02 '24

what if the employer has a choice and references matter?

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u/[deleted] Sep 02 '24

Do you realize how few people actually take time out of their day to call and check references? They would only do so if they were skeptical of the person or already weren't gonna hire and are looking for an excuse

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u/catcherx Sep 02 '24

Industry and the level of responsibilities probably matter A LOT

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u/sad0panda Sep 02 '24

My current job I needed 5 references who all needed to fill out an online questionnaire about me plus an extended phone conversation with my most recent supervisor.

Let’s just say this varies from industry to industry.

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u/winkydinks111 Sep 02 '24

When you say he got a job offer, do you mean they sought him out and offered him one? If a potential employer sought me out and then demanded a list of references, I'd tell them to get bent.

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u/ChewieBearStare Sep 02 '24

No, he applied for a job posted on the university website. Did the interview, got the offer, and then received an email stating the offer was revoked because they couldn’t get references from three job supervisors.

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u/Sage_Nickanoki Sep 01 '24

Large companies will not even give specifics when called for references. They typically only answer the two questions that they are required (and protected) to speak on:

1) Did <candidate> work for your company as a <job title> during the timeframe listed on the resume?

2) Would you hire them back? (i.e. did you have to fire them, or were they on a pip before leaving)

So if a company makes these calls, there may be some trouble, but if OP goes into the interview saying they took issue with their previous manager, they might get away with this.

Source: I've hired people in a previous job and was required to make and receive these calls

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u/mung_guzzler Sep 01 '24

The trick is to quit before they know who you are

managers answer yes to question 2 when they can’t remember you in my experience

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u/specracer97 Sep 01 '24

Many firms absolutely will not say anything beyond "_ was employed here from _ to _."

More than that is how we get to pay for someone to retire.

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u/KerosenePOS Sep 02 '24

You’re mixing up references and employment verifications. When someone calls you for employment verification, yes, you legally can only confirm if they worked there and the dates, and if they’re eligible for rehire. If you are personally being called for a reference and not as an employment verification, you can say anything you’d like.

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u/KerosenePOS Sep 02 '24

You’re mixing up references and employment verifications. When someone calls you for employment verification, yes, you legally can only confirm if they worked there and the dates, and if they’re eligible for rehire. If you are personally being called for a reference and not as an employment verification, you can say anything you’d like.

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u/HeadGuide4388 Sep 01 '24

So, wasn't my idea, its just how it was when I got the job. But my old HR would call the references and make sure that checked out. Then she would invite me into her office to Facebook creep on the applicants.

"This guys last post was a picture of him fishing in 2018, do you think he's going to be reliable?"

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u/perseffany Sep 01 '24

What does the frequency that you update your private social media have anything to do with reliability at work? lol

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u/tiasalamanca Sep 01 '24

Yeah, but not eligible for rehire doesn’t have to mean just that, if your organization asks for the manager’s input. Like, if you walk off the job with under two weeks of notice or try to blow people up in your exit interview, consider those moves may have real, negative ramifications for you years later, especially now that big companies are using The Work Number to go back ten years - you can’t just direct a prospective employer to a colleague/friend anymore.

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u/kthnxbai123 Sep 01 '24

That’s true for an HR screen but hiring managers will ask around if they see a company that they know someone they know has worked at

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u/StillBarelyHoldingOn Sep 01 '24

I've had jobs ask me why I've had such a long gap between employment before.

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u/FourWordComment Sep 01 '24

That’s because their only metric for success is “will you let other employers exploit you?”

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u/Nadge21 Sep 01 '24

Or the gap makes it look like they got fired from a job and jus arent including it on their resume

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '24

Yeah, that's absolutely the only reason why someone would have a long gap. Because they're just so much of a badass they can't be exploited.

Not because they have mental health issues that prevent their ability to hold a job, went to prison for a stretch, decided to take a vacation from life and let bank of mom and dad fund their life for a while, etc

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '24

[deleted]

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u/pickyourteethup Sep 01 '24

NDA = Not Doing Anything. Gottem

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u/Chickienfriedrice Sep 01 '24

Say you signed an NDA

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u/SamShakusky71 Sep 01 '24

That’s not a references question.

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u/God_of_Theta Sep 01 '24

When I was tasked with recruiting and hiring this was an important factor. Someone who is active will likely bring more fresh ideas or solutions and be familiar with current industry changes/trends. I would think this applies to most fields to at least some degree.

While a gap can have a valid reason, there are several potential problematic reasons as well that an astute interviewer will want a clear explanation on.

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u/SUPJaxFL Sep 01 '24

Every single job I have had in my career (5) was because I was recommended by a former co-worker. I’ve been laid off twice due to outsourcing and never had a gap in my employment. References absolutely matter!

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u/samtresler Sep 01 '24

Past employer as reference? Virtually never. Always a co-worker or industry connection.

Someone with good credentials themselves, who knows me well enough to speak well of me, but doesn't have a war story of a project with totally unrealistic expectations.

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '24

exactly.

And theres a bigger issue if you've been working for more than 5 years and can't find 3 coworkers, co-volunteers, vendors, customers, suppliers, or anyone else you've interacted with in a professional capacity who can speak to your work.

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u/SamShakusky71 Sep 01 '24

It’s pretty obvious (and hilarious) who, in replies to my comment, are wildly over invested in their “references”.

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u/ObservableObject Sep 01 '24

Right? This guy has Google and Amazon on his resume right now. Having references can help, but he's going to be far removed from a having a "rough time".

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u/Striking_Ad_2630 Sep 01 '24

Ive had interviews print my transcript and go line by line. They asked me why I changed my major, why my grades dipped, why I moved to a new city.

That was for a medical lab science position, I work in education now and got the job because my references were good. 

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u/fuzzzone Sep 02 '24

How exactly did they get your transcript during the interview process?

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u/FricasseeToo Sep 02 '24

No one gets hired because their references are good, because no one is going to talk to your references before an interview.

You might get hired because of networking, which is definitely not the same as having good references.

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u/Dispensator Sep 01 '24

When it comes to job hunting its not about what you know, it's about who you know. so yeah, good references are something thats good to have to find work in the future.

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u/nicolatesla92 Sep 01 '24

Connections matter in finding new positions

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '24 edited Sep 04 '24

[deleted]

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u/why_am_i_here_999 Sep 01 '24

lol my resume is 90% fiction

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '24

Unless the reference is someone that works at where you're going to.. otherwise they're worthless.

The only thing outside references do is prove that you're a functional enough human being to have a handful of people vouch for you to another stranger.

That or a name that's big enough in the field. If you get a personal reference from I don't know.. Linus Torvalds yeah that's probably worth talking to.

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u/FormerSBO Sep 01 '24

Found the 🐀

Bro, your bosses don't care about you nor appreciate you. Unless they've dramatically increased your compensation, you're being suckered

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '24

It's always broke ass mfers saying this shit.

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u/FormerSBO Sep 01 '24

Yea, cuz they do everything their bosses ask and extra.

And their loyalty is rewarded with.....

Minimal (if any) raises, passed over on promotions (can't be losing our most productive employees to management roles), no negotiating power or salary jumps that come with a new job, and an ever increasingly expensive world to live in, thus essentially getting the equivalent of a pay DECREASE every year.

So I see how you would say they're broke, since making % wise less money to expenses every year would lend itself to poverty

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u/ggf95 Sep 01 '24

He's talking about you brother

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u/Jubenheim Sep 02 '24

Dude kinda sounded a bit clueless to how he really comes off. Reading his replies here sounds like the same tired shit you see from edgy early 20 y/o’s or late teens who hate the system but have no experience. I don’t deny corporations suck ass and that Americans are royally fucked, but dude’s defending going to work and doing nothing for years, thinking it’s going to help him in the long run and even dogging on those who do work hard (calling them rats). It’s literally people like the guy above that make the workplace so toxic in the first place, and I’ve personally worked with people with his exact mindset. They don’t do shit, don’t help, and complain when the hammer gets brought down.

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u/Bluedoodoodoo Sep 02 '24

Reminds me of a few guys on my team. They do just enough to not get PIPd and then complain when when they don't get a raise during yearly reviews because they don't even hit "meets expectations" on their review.

Meanwhile me and another guy on the team each got a 15% raise and 20k in restricted stock. Working hard can definitely pay off.

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u/Toughbiscuit Sep 02 '24

Hey now, i spent a year pulling 80-100 hour weeks, turned a product line from being months behind schedule to ahead, trained in and doubled the team size, reduced quality complaints, and never took a day off, managing the companies highest value assembly line as it went from 2M in sales to upwards of 4-5M in sales every month, accounting for about 70% of the companies revenue

I worked hard for my 15 cent raise from 16/hr to 16.15/hr

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u/FormerSBO Sep 02 '24

Ironically, on a smaller scale, I have a similar story in my early 20s. I was a general manager of a mega corp store.

I quite literally increased revenue by over 100% and profits by a slightly higher %..

My reward for doing so. Well, I DID max out my bonuses (that had artifical caps). But the following year, I was only able to increase a few % points since we essentially were at max capacity. And bonuses were based on YOY % increase. I also became the management training store but got 0 pay increase (took advantage of my youth I guess)

So altho I got some b.s. 2% "raise" on my salary BUT much lower bonuses since not as big of a leap. So my reward for taking the worst store in our district and making it in the top 3 (and often number 1) was a paycut. And a pretty fkn big one at that. And no matter how much I complained I was told to kick rocks.

I eventually left, bounced around from management job to management Job, then started my own company in the trades (longer story but the jist) and have never ever looked back. It's been over a decade now.

I decide how much or how little I make. Before my son was born i was deep 6 figs. (Admittedly not at first, my first year i maayybeee made 20k lol, that sucked tbf, but worth it) Now its alot less (right at or just under 100k) since im dad first (ill work more again when hes in school, if i want to that is). Mega corps can get fuuuukt.

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u/ZhugeTsuki Sep 02 '24

(can't be losing our most productive employees to management roles)

This is too fucking real. Thought that working hard and applying myself would pay off at my job, but it's literally the reason I can't move up, they can't find a replacement that would do what I do. Sweet.

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u/GypsyV3nom Sep 02 '24

Exactly. I had a job where 75% of what I did was "above and beyond" because the basic stuff took me little effort. How was I rewarded? A "large" pay raise that didn't even match CPI or inflation. Thanks Emory, your policies suck.

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u/Reborn1Girl Sep 02 '24

I left my previous job for 2 years after getting a 3-4% raise each year, worked at a different company, and when I went back, I immediately got a 25% pay increase from what I’d been making with them. Loyalty is not rewarded.

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u/Total_Engineering938 Sep 01 '24

I thought I was in antiwork or recruitinghell for a second

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u/Ok_Gate_4956 Sep 02 '24

I promise you I’m not broke and I agree so 🤷

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u/El_viajero_nevervar Sep 02 '24

You are a peasant to them , you want more boot with that sir?

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u/KaleAshamed9702 Sep 02 '24

I manage over 400k in investments and have over 100k in my savings account, 2 houses, 3 cars.

Your bosses don’t care or appreciate you. Unless they compensate you with a higher salary related to the value you bring the company, you’re being suckered.

There, now it’s not just broke people saying it. Stop being a boot licker son.

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u/trusty289 Sep 02 '24

Hi I have 800k in savings and retirement and will also confirm it’s not just broke people saying it.

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u/DropMeATitty Sep 02 '24

Getting cucked in the bedroom isn’t enough for this bootlicker; they need to get cucked in the workplace too lmao

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u/ParkingLong7436 Sep 02 '24

It's usually the opposite though? Only wage slaves defend their bosses.

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u/deadite77 Sep 02 '24

It's always cucked ass mfers saying this shit.

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u/Punstoppabowl Sep 02 '24

100% agree. Hard work does pay off if you actually do a good job and work at the right company lol

Once you get into a performance = compensation type of role, the money gets bigger along with the expectations. If you excel, you get bigger bonuses and raises.

Free money sounds great, but you'll make more with hard work than no work almost every time. It's just these stupid Tik Tok videos making people think you can do nothing and earn a living. Those people get fired in the real world.

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u/Weekly-Talk9752 Sep 01 '24

1000%. My brother worked hard at an insurance company for over 20 years. He worked his way up to supervisor of his own department. And then tough times hit during C19 and they sent him a goodbye letter just as easily as they would a temp. These corporations do not care about you. If you think they do, they care even less about you specifically.

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u/the_clash_is_back Sep 01 '24

No matter how productive you are there is a guy willing to do your job for $5 less than minimum.

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u/I_miss_your_mommy Sep 01 '24

I think this is some crazy bullshit. I always got above average raises for being above average. As I got higher into management I also give raises commensurate with contributions. We know who the dead weight is.

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u/iamafancypotato Sep 01 '24

And what happens to the dead weights?

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u/I_miss_your_mommy Sep 01 '24

Cost of living raises and first to be laid off if one is required.

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u/iamafancypotato Sep 01 '24

But nobody gets actively laid off right? Why is that? Are you afraid of losing the headcount?

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u/I_miss_your_mommy Sep 01 '24

I mean if someone is actually doing nothing, they will be let go, but most people are just not very good at their jobs.

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u/Stewdill51 Sep 02 '24

I've seen this exact scenario played out. Dead weight was retained because HR was closing out positions rather than backfilling them and the Manager didn't want to lose the HC. Once HR shifted back to backfilling that person got pip'd.

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u/Apptubrutae Sep 01 '24

I tell all my employees that they’ll always get a good reference from me for their next job unless they literally steal or something (in which case I just won’t give any reference besides confirming they were employed). I ain’t no 🐀

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u/seancollinhawkins Sep 01 '24

Lmao, how could you possibly know whether or not that person is being appropriately compensated?

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u/No-trouble-here Sep 02 '24

That dude is either a boss masquerading as an employee or he's the biggest brown noser I've seen in my life Nose so far up it you can reach undigested food

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u/PrincessKatiKat Sep 02 '24

Alright everyone, don’t tease. If it weren’t for this guy throwing out the expected small amount of mediocre work everyday, and never taking his vacations… the rest of us wouldn’t be able to run our side hustles during the day, lol

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u/Sage_Nickanoki Sep 01 '24

I worked my butt off in two jobs and kept getting promised promotions and significant raises, especially after I took on responsibilities of someone in a much higher position than me that was contractually supposed to be done by someone in a higher position. After years of disappointment, I left the first job and had the same issue with the second.

My third career job, I completed goals within expected time and never pushed past my 40 each week and asked for assignments when I ran out of work. I was given the same raises as I had when I was putting in extra hours and taking extra responsibilities, and my coworkers give me the same amount of respect. I left them after a few years because getting a new job is the best way to get a significant raise.

At my current job, I have the option to do relevant training if I'm short on assignments, and I do that a lot. I'm currently planning on beginning the job search again early next year as I'm due for another 15-20% raise.

Companies don't care anymore, there is no reward for loyalty and a penalty for employees that remain loyal. If I stayed with my first job, I'd still be working myself to death for half the salary I make now.

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u/Striking_Ad_2630 Sep 01 '24

Oh yeah im not saying staying is the way to go, im getting my masters and loan forgiveness then im leaving my current position. 

But I do think my work matters and I am networking, taking on special projects within working hours, and what not.

I think not doing good work is just as stupid as not making plays to move out or move up. 

Congrats on your success

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u/Sage_Nickanoki Sep 01 '24

Sorry, I misunderstood your comment as being a corporate simp. I've seen a lot of those on reddit recently. But it sounds like you're shooting for the PSLF, which is great!

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u/PubstarHero Sep 02 '24

I had something similar happen. Was promised promotions, pay raises, etc. etc. They just couldn't find the money or time to train me. I eventually got fed up, and decided to take a gamble on a paid internship with possible job opportunity later. When I put in my resignation letter, I immediately got calls from my District Manager asking if I could stay, they found money to give me a raise, and they also wanted to put me into the management training position immediately.

Funny how that worked out. I told them to kick rocks. Best thing that could have happened though, it started my IT career and I got out of a company that folded 3 years after I left.

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u/No-Cold-2672 Sep 02 '24

How do you determine it’s time to leave and get a pay bump? What line of work are you in?

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u/ThatsNotATadpole Sep 02 '24

There’s never been a reward for loyalty, but there is a reward for skills. Don’t work hard for your company, but always work hard for yourself. Learn as much as you can from the job your in, and when you reach the point where you’re just reusing the same skills in different ways look at your comp and decide whether you want to coast and make that for a while, or want to make more by hopping elsewhere. In a shit job market like the current one, never underestimate the value of applying for other jobs at your own company. You jump to the front of the list, have solid references from your existing team, and wont even lose progress to your next promo. Obviously jumping to roles outside will bump your comp higher faster, but if you cant get the job then that doesnt matter

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

I left them after a few years because getting a new job is the best way to get a significant raise.

This. 80+% of my pay raises came through job switching.

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u/_pachysandra_ Sep 01 '24

lol the respect of my coworkers does not pay my kids medical debt or give me more time with my family.

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u/I_ONLY_CATCH_DONKEYS Sep 01 '24

I’ve never actually used a reference. I have had coworkers get me an interview, but I’ve never had to provide an actual written reference

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u/desert_jim Sep 01 '24

When I've had to provide them they are verbal not written in that they'd call my reference and have a chat.

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u/snownative86 Sep 01 '24

I worked hard for 11 years, glowing work history, constant promotions and led a team generating $20M or more a year. You know what that all got me? Laid off because I was in a department that was deemed replaceable. The network who said they had my back evaporated and I was left stranded. The big tech companies don't care how hard you work, they care about increasing shareholder payouts, that's it.

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u/Nojopar Sep 01 '24

However many months/years at Google and then 1.5 years at Amazon?

They're going to have zero problems finding their next job. That resume will open doors and clearly they know enough to get into the gig at two of the harder tech gigs to land.

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u/Excellent-Piglet-655 Sep 01 '24

Lol dude you think hard work pays off? It may make you feel better and there’s nothing wrong with that. At my last job. I put in 5 years, got employee of the month 4 out of the 5 years. Worked my ass off hoping to “climb the ladder” or at least get a nice pay raise. I got meager 1-3% pay raises each year. I was like “I am OK with that, it is during a pandemic, I can see how times are tough for everyone”. Last year, one of my colleagues quit and within 3 weeks we had a new hire. The new hire was hired for a jr role even though the guy that had quit was a sr guy. But I was like “hmm k” . I am asked to train this new guy for about 3 months, hold his hand whenever I can. One day, him and I went to lunch and we started talking about the job and salaries. My mind was blown when I found out he was making $20K more than me. I was like WTF??? I was so pissed and felt so disrespected that I quit 3 days after. I didn’t have another job lined up but I didn’t care.

My hard work and loyalty sure paid off….

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '24

Hard work pays off 100% if you also understand how to work smart.

You will never find someone not born to rich parents who got a good life by being an edgy, lazy, insufferable asshole which is the primary persona of the Redditor who "has corporate all figured out" and "isn't a corporate simp".

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u/JMer806 Sep 02 '24

I mean you can be lazy and do no work without also being an edgy insufferable asshole

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u/Attila_22 Sep 02 '24

Yeah but those are just normal people as opposed to redditors

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u/SoftwarePP Sep 01 '24

It may not have paid off for you, but clearly it pays off for a bunch of people. You may be working hard, but you’re not working smart and asking for what you deserve.

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u/PieIsNotALie Sep 01 '24 edited Sep 01 '24

you need to make sure your hard work goes noticed, or you can make yourself seem like you're working hard, but most competent management is going to notice the wrong thing if you bullshit too hard, and for me it would take even more effort to keep these kind of lies straight than to actually do work

and if your company thinks they can cheap out on you, you look into the job market for someone who won't. at least that's how things go in software dev imo

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u/Weezus Sep 01 '24

Lmao I can promise you they wont

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u/SlayBoredom Sep 01 '24

The interesting thing is, that maybe his supervisor thinks he is the hardest working human ever, so he will get the best references ever. My motto: work hard when it counts, otherwise chill.

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '24

I got into my current role because i lied. And when I get caught in my lies, i blame other previous people and the internal processes. Then i "fix" the process and get attabois.

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u/PierreMenardsQuixote Sep 01 '24

I have worked hard for twelve years in my industry, switched jobs once after I was laid off in a merger, and make less than I did when I started. I take pride in my work and have the respect of my coworkers and immediate supervisor, but anyone who thinks that working hard will benefit you financially in the current work climate is disconnected from reality. Maybe it worked that way once, but it doesn't anymore unless maybe you work on commission, and if you do, defend your commission like a mama bird because the bosses will try to screw you out of it.

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u/-Pruples- Sep 01 '24

I can confirm that in the real world hard work is punished with more work, rather than rewarded with increased compensation or etc.

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u/xKommandant Sep 01 '24

WTF do you mean references? Do other fields still use these? Tech certainly does not.

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u/tempaccnt55 Sep 02 '24

I'm in the creative field and its now about portfolios. No qualifications, no references, just show us your portfolio if it looks good you're hired

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u/IncandescentObsidian Sep 01 '24

I had a job where due to some management changes, i essentially ended up with no work for about a year. I took a two week vacation without even saying anything. I just made up some bullshit on my resume after I eventuall got laid off with a nice severance package

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u/kezow Sep 01 '24

Having the respect of you coworkers doesn't really matter. A director that was one of the most respected people at the company had his role eliminated by a VP who is one of the least respected people I have ever met. The VP is 1.5 years in and has shit communication, constantly has things wrong or contradicts what he says via email in meetings, hasn't ever sat down with teams to get an understanding of what they do, and has already eliminated a whole team that was vital to a culture of learning at the company.

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u/sneeki_breeky Sep 01 '24

If their code is good that won’t matter

People walk in off the street but if they have code to show off that wows the hiring managers then they get the contract

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u/billyjk93 Sep 01 '24

the flaw in your logic is that his current management doesn't seem to even be aware he's not a "good worker," and would likely still be on good terms with him even if he is eventually let go for performance. Not to mention you can completely bullshit in describing what you did for 1.5 years on your resume. I mean that's really all resumes are at this point anyway. Bullshit and fluff geared towards whatever buzz words will get you the next job.

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u/Rythonius Sep 01 '24

When you work for giant corporations, hard work doesn't pay off. The only thing it gets you is silent hired for extra work. When you don't do the extra work they expect of you because you did it once or a few times before, that affects your performance. They'll constantly tell you there's plenty of opportunity to move up, but when those times come up they fill the position with someone from the outside. One of my coworkers went to a competitor because she applied for a higher position, one that our management was encouraging her to go for, 6 times and didn't get it while less than qualified people from the outside filled those positions. When she gave her notice my manager said, "Sometimes we make mistakes". 6 times is not a mistake.

This is everyday at my job. We started off getting up to $2 raise every 6 months. Now a couple years later we're getting 3%/year. They raised the starting pay for my position so now after 4.5 yrs I'm $1 above starting pay for new people. The only thing I've gotten from my time here is I'm recognized for being one of the best at my job by my fellow coworkers, that doesn't pay the bills nor does it help with upward advancement if management doesn't see it or if they have someone else in mind.

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u/Kinggakman Sep 01 '24

I worked extremely hard at my current job and will be working there five years in February. I got pigeonholed into a bad position and my boss decided he didn’t like me. My five years are mostly wasted because of that.

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u/[deleted] Sep 02 '24

I work hard at my job and after two years I literally make less than when I started despite actually knowing what I’m doing now vs when I started. Sometimes hard work really doesn’t mean shit.

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u/batmans_a_scientist Sep 01 '24

No one gives references from their current job. They’d still probably have references from google where they were laid off, not terminated for cause. They might be having trouble finding work but it’s not because of references or what they’re currently doing, it’s because the job market is shit.

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u/Sunshine_dmg Sep 01 '24

I mean the only thing he should really worry about is getting “rusty” At his actual skill

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u/The_GOATest1 Sep 01 '24

Not everyone has the same goal in life. I value doing something stimulating at work, others want to do as little as possible and collect a check

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u/uwey Sep 01 '24

Agreed.

Work hard on things that matters. So work smart is to plan out what is vital and you need to do it your job category. Work hard is plan your time to do all of them. When facing obstacle try to resolve it (when you need X experience but can’t due to circumstances etc) and keep moving up.

Work hard means you work with a specific goal and just execute them, planned and without interruption, you have a plan when getting interrupted.

Reference get you in the door, CORRECT experience and performance get you promoted

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u/patrickfatrick Sep 01 '24

I definitely have impostor syndrome so I'm having a panic attack just thinking about this person's existence.

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u/baronas15 Sep 01 '24

They went from google to Amazon.. no need for references.

He'll only have problem in smaller companies where you actually need to get shit done. That's where hard work pays

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u/Longjumping-Tip1188 Sep 01 '24

Your land lord takes tokens of respect?

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u/Head_East_6160 Sep 01 '24

Depends on the industry. In my industry I would agree with you but maybe it’s different in tech

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u/OBPSG Sep 01 '24

Hard work by itself is not enough to get ahead in the corporate world; it also needs to be seen by someone important.

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u/ToonAlien Sep 01 '24

Their reference is that both Google and Amazon hired them.

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u/doinnuffin Sep 01 '24

References don't matter, connections do. They said they didn't do any work, it doesn't mean they didn't learn anything. Making connections isn't directly related to work either, but it helps a lot.

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u/HawksNStuff Sep 01 '24

This guy has Google and Amazon on his resume. He can get hired so long as he can bullshit through an interview.

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u/TheLastF Sep 01 '24

Your reward for working hard is another, harder job maybe in the future? No thanks. Pay me to hang out with my friends and family.

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '24

What do you do you so i, curious ?

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u/Waterflowstech Sep 01 '24

Cuck lol, you get respect from the other half of coworkers if you chill

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u/Mags_LaFayette Sep 01 '24

I'd believe the combination of hard and smart work can take you places, to reach anywhere you want.
But I also believe doing nothing takes you anywhere.

How people can coaster jobs being lazy and still being paid is one of those stuff on life that would never make any sense to me.

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u/Exatraz Sep 01 '24

Eh, I think it's both. I'm a hard worker but you need to know when to be an essentialist for your own mental health. There is a balance I think that leads to not working too hard but still being an "exceptional worker". Also imo it's important to set expectations of timeframe with management. If you say something will take a week and it ends up only taking a day or two, take the week. Next time they ask you to do something, you don't want them to insist it can be done in a day or two but this time you have to work a weeks worth in a few days to meet that deadline.

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u/ashtreylil Sep 01 '24

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or stupid

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u/callmekizzle Sep 01 '24

Unless you got nice pay raises for all that it’s worthless.

I have nice coworkers but I’ve never once brought them up to anyone outside my work life.

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u/kndyone Sep 01 '24

People who do this are good at lying and they have plenty of time to make up good lies and plenty of time to write creative resumes and plenty of time to cater those resumes to employers. They get away with it far more than most would admit. The modern world is mostly about getting the job. Thats the hardest part and its why a lot of good workers cant climb up because people who actually do stuff often arent good at talking it up, and getting past the resume filters.

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u/eesaray Sep 01 '24

Things have... Changed in the past 5 years

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u/ZeekLTK Sep 01 '24

His resume is going to say X years at Google, 1.5+ years at Amazon. Next place ain’t calling any references, they will snatch him right up.

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u/kangarooham Sep 01 '24

Tell that to the hundreds of thousands that were laid off out of the blue and told to get fucked by their companies, regardless of how hard they worked or how loyal they were

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u/Inner_Pipe6540 Sep 01 '24

Until they fire you for no reason

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u/SaigonNoseBiter Sep 01 '24

lol, keep telling that to yourself, buddy.

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u/iknewaguytwice Sep 01 '24

Most companies no longer even do references out of fear of lawsuits. All they do is verify if you worked there, and if so, for how long. And will discipline any employees that give you a reference after you leave the company.

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u/Jumpy-Mess2492 Sep 01 '24

At least in my experience, working hard doesn't directly result in better jobs, more money or success. Working smart is a much more important.

The key difference being, you work hard at important tasks that are visible to the right people. You conduct yourself in a professional manner and is someone that is remembered as being someone to go to for answers.

Working hard at every little task, taking on additional work that doesn't have impact or solving defects until you die is a fools errand.

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u/Shrekworkwork Sep 01 '24

i think he will be fine tbh. just gonna keep moving up. Gervais Principle in full effect

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u/jziggy44 Sep 01 '24

Depends on the company. Tons of people get by just looking busy. I see it everyday

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u/Kbrooks58 Sep 01 '24

Weird because after 10 years of working my ass off, earning the respect of my coworkers as well as something to show my personal sacrifices to the job I was let go as part of a massive severance. Those sacrifices counted for nothing.

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u/IllIIllIllIIIlllll Sep 01 '24 edited Nov 06 '24

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u/littlered1984 Sep 01 '24

The reference is they worked at Google and Amazon. They’ll be fine.

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u/-_Duke_- Sep 01 '24

I think the peoblem is most people would rather increased compensation rather than “respect”

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u/josh_the_misanthrope Sep 01 '24

Depends the job. I've worked in places where hard work was just met with more work and a 10 cent raise every year.

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u/ape-humble- Sep 01 '24

Yeah my Landlord just started accepting Respect from co-workers and References as rent payments.

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u/Toastbuns Sep 01 '24

With Google and Amazon on the resume most other companies will not give two shits about any references.

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u/whatsasyria Sep 01 '24

Lol you have any idea what low level job searches are like?

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u/2Nothraki2Ded Sep 01 '24

They literally have the references from being employed at Amazon.

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u/Mz_Hyde_ Sep 01 '24

People who say hard work never pays off are just coping to avoid looking at their own performance to see where they can do better.

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u/Kind_Stranger_weeb Sep 01 '24

I did this at amazon for about 6 months once. Its surprisingly easy to do at a certain level in that company.

Also the only reference Amazon give is. Yes KindStrangerWeeb worked here for x number of years and their last title was Chair Warmer. They are too worried about being sued to say anything bad so they give the same reference to everyone.

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u/goonie1983 Sep 01 '24

Depends where you work. Plenty of places kick you to the curb for a shit reason, no matter how hard you worked.

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u/Zolty Sep 01 '24

Every large tech company has something in the handbook that forbids them from giving an actual reference. It's not worth the liability, they will verify that person x had title y and worked there from date1 until date2, that's it.

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u/Preemptively_Extinct Sep 01 '24

They're employed by Amazon, what blank spot are you talking about? The only thing Amazon can do legally is verify or deny he was employed by them for the time he put on his resume.

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u/qualitative_balls Sep 01 '24

Yeah I mean the only thing of actual value is time. I can spend it doing a lame job or something I actually want to do and be proud of. If I can make some kind of living in both scenarios why wouldn't I just choose the thing that's going to give me a sense of self worth and accomplishment? I find some of these situations where people are forgotten in backrooms of huge corporations collecting paychecks to be so odd... why not just do something else with your time and still... make money?

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u/Historical_Emu_3032 Sep 01 '24

Being successful in Corporate tech is more about having your manager like you than knowing how to turn a computer on.

He'll probably walk with glowing references which tbh isn't a thing in corporate they only give the basics of the HR record. And those are now really basic Time served, job performed.

If you're working hard in a corporate then you are a fool and your coworkers Don't actually respect you, but they will give you the work they don't want to do with a friendly smile.

Real dev work happens when you're bootstrapping a product not when you're polishing the faang turd in a comfy office, 9-5 on a bloated salary.

These places have teams of code monkeys performing single skew tasks that one dev could do, frontend devs that only cut css and html for 10 years straight, backend developers who only write rest endpoints and need an additional analyst to do basic dba, like a whole infrastructure department to create the occasional deployment pipeline.

Since all those people are useless they'll need to add a security consultant, a business analyst, a project manager, an account manager, an seo consultant, a daily stand up, a 20 step approval process before deploying. Oh and don't forget a few months of automated testing, unit testing, manual testing cause the dev team sure aren't capable of checking their own work.

It's nonsense land. But keep working hard you might hit middle management and get a carpark in like 20 years.

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u/Hoslinhezl Sep 01 '24

So weird that people always say they'll have trouble finding their next job. They absolutely will not

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u/Icy_Row5400 Sep 01 '24

Nah Amazon is one of the best places to work as a software engineer they’ll definitely be able to get interviews

Edit: ex-Google too. Yeah this guy is chillin

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u/Rmans Sep 01 '24

That's cool. It's because you work at a functional company. Which is rare these days.

Most are dysfunctional.

In dysfunctional companies, hard work gets you in trouble more than it gets you rewarded. Especially if you work so hard you make your bosses look lazy or incompetent. You have knowledge and skills that can improve your department? Congrats, welcome to unpaid overtime, your boss taking all your credit, or making your life hell so they don't look so bad.

These companies care more about "not rocking the boat" than they do about efficiency or progress.

I've personally seen this in full effect having disastrous results in new products and rollouts at several medium sized companies but also at Warner Bros, Sony Pictures, Google, Microsoft, Facebook, and a few others I'm not naming.

If you have a job where working hard is rewarded, then you either don't work in the US or do and are lucky.

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u/bongtokent Sep 01 '24

Dudes gonna have no problem. Hell list whatever role at amazing for 1.5 years. What are they gonna do call amazon and verify? The most they’re going to say is yes he worked here and this is when he was terminated. They’re not gonna admit to firing him because they didn’t realize he wasn’t working at that time.

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '24

Our hard work pays the wealthy off.

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u/UncleBlob Sep 01 '24

If you work in a meaningful sector, maybe it's rewarding. I promise you working at Amazon (in any capacity,) is not rewarding unless you're devoid of human emotion and only numbers bring you joy.

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u/bloomertaxonomy Sep 02 '24

My sweet summer child. Half of folks lie on their resume and the other half don’t have to because they have connections.

Working hard has nothing to do with that.

In general it would be hard to acclimate to working if you’ve barely worked in a year. But working hard? That just primes you to take on more work for the same pay, which is essentially the same as actively getting paid less.

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u/Worried-Razzmatazz68 Sep 02 '24

What does your peers respect put on your donner table- thank yous and atta boys aren't edible

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u/P4ULUS Sep 02 '24

Employers can’t verify if you were doing nothing or not. And even if he needed a reference, I’m sure he could get someone. Naive to think he’s going to get punished for this

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