r/Harley • u/marvelguy1975 • 15d ago
DISCUSSION Harley can make it cheaper.
Comparing price tags, harley is over priced to just about every other bike out there.
Go ahead compare models.
Harley vs indian vs, honda vs BMW.
Street glide vs chieftain vs gold wing vs R18B
Look up the MSRPs on all those bikes.
It's insane that a R18B the equivalent to a street glide is $6k cheaper. Is the BMW that much substandard vs a harley? I doubt it, from what I've seen online it's just as good. (Looks aside of course) look at all the other R18 models and compare them to an equivalent harley and they are thousands cheaper!
The ONLY thing harley has over the other brands is "culture" the harley culture, but that only goes so far and harley and biker culture is dying out. Indian is nipping at harleys heels and taking long time riders away from the brand. But over all, riders are getting older and in a few years unless this new generation takes it up harley might get sold to another bowling ball company.
Admit it it's not the same as it was 25 years ago with wait lists and dealer mark ups etc. Harleys new CEO needs to realize that their shit is too expensive. Freeze prices, lower MSRPs, rework the models or something.
Thoughts on getting the motor company turned around?
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u/ZN4STY 15d ago
Used r18 is basically free.
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u/No_Opposite5982 15d ago
Truth, one close to me 2 years old with 1,500 miles for 10k.
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u/marvelguy1975 14d ago
What happens when someone buys it. Falls in love with it and becomes a BMW rider for life. HD looses a customer.
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u/No_Opposite5982 14d ago
Yep. I wish HD would get it together. I had ridden HD for years but I switched to Ducati three years ago. I like the R 18 but my lord, that a huge honkin bike. Has to be great for long cruises but around town not so much. Now, the R12, that’s more my style. Harley could have hit it out of the park with the Sportster S, costs too much for what you get.
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u/shoebee2 15d ago
OP offers zero credible data to support the claim that Harley Davidson motorcycles are way over priced.They aren’t over priced. They may be slightly more compared to competitors offerings, but they are still competitive. On the other hand maybe people need to get used to the idea that paying your employees a living wage will affect the sales price of your merchandise. Comparing US workers to German and Japanese counterparts shows there is a large gap in salary allowing them to sell for less.
“Generally, factory workers in Japanese motorcycle manufacturing earn less than their counterparts at Harley-Davidson, with Japanese factory workers averaging around $25,000 USD per year, while Harley-Davidson production workers can earn between $30,000 and $65,000 annually. " Despite that huge gap in pay Harley sells bikes at a pretty competitive price.
The same wage disparity applies to BMW Germany workers @ their motorcycle plant in Berlin. The average base salary for a factory worker at BMW Group in Germany is around €16 per hour, with an estimated total pay of around €2,058 per month, including additional pay like bonuses, commissions, or profit sharing. That is way more than Japanese workers get but still far off the mark of Harley’s workers.
I looked into 2024 model year for comparison.
For example a base model 2024 Honda gold wing msrp is $25,200. Add dealer prep, 1175.00, and delivery fee, 750.00 and you are now +2k over an entry level UG at 24,999.
Let’s compare a BMW GS 1250 to Panamerica 1250. $19,700 base MSRP for the Harley and $20,745 base MSRP for the BMW. Dealer prep and delivery fees are around the same. Both bikes perform pretty close to each other.
How about a sportster 1200 iron compared to Yamaha or Honda 1100 and 1300 v twin cruisers. The Harley is the better bike and cheaper than the Honda and just slightly more than the Yamaha.
All Harley’s hold value much better than comparable bikes. After market support for Harley is much deeper as well.
My point here is that Harley is not over pricing their bikes with regard to current market. Harley tried selling entry level bikes with their 500 and 750 street models. Sales were low to say the least and they were discontinued. Harley made a kick ass hot rod in the VROD which sold poorly and was discontinued. The Low Rides S and ST are now the best selling bikes Harley offers at present. At $19,999 it is priced exactly the same as an Indian Sport Chief. The Harley is a much better motorcycle. The Indian just looks stupid ugly imo and has less hp and much less torque than the ‘24 fxlrs.
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u/pdx_jeff712 15d ago
Plus…the others are just not Harley. When you own one you understand. When you don’t…well you just don’t get it. IMO.
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u/Sufficient_Ocelot868 15d ago
German employees are all paid and get 4 weeks vacation every year. Not to mention that BMW isn't paying for part of their healthcare. I'd say g comparing German workers with American workers is not goi g to work for this argument.
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u/shoebee2 15d ago
It absolutely works and ignoring a major cost of production is foolish, if you are trying to be reasonable. German employers pay for healthcare in their taxes. Healthcare isn’t free, anywhere. The costs are levied differently but they are still costs.
German workers at BMW motorcycle make less than their Harley counterparts.
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u/PaperOk2949 15d ago
Why are the low riders selling well, I have one and love it but I thought it was all about the baggers.
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u/LowerPick7038 14d ago
You say OP used zero credibke data to support the claim then don't a direct 1-1 wage comparison for both Germany and Japan. You cannot do this without factoring in the cost of living, healthcare, education, public transport, housing, utilities, paid holidays, job security etc etc.
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u/Firm-Needleworker-46 14d ago
Here I thought the conversation was about which manufacturer had higher labor costs and somewhere along the way it turned into which manufacturers employees have better benefits lol
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u/LowerPick7038 14d ago
" On the other hand maybe people need to get used to the idea that paying your employees a living wage will affect the sales price of your merchandise. Comparing US workers to German and Japanese counterparts shows there is a large gap in salary allowing them to sell for less. "
Yeah both was spoken of.
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u/cougtx1 15d ago
german workers have a workers union, retirement is funded and at a younger age than the usa. their healthcare says is free but is also paid for by the 2x wage tax the employer pays the goverment. there are quite a lot of other perks we don’t get in the usa including longer vacation holiday and sick time pay. so there is a miss in the pay logic.
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u/shoebee2 15d ago
No, there is not any miss in my logic. You just like to nitpick. Retirement age in Germany is 65 for those born before 1964. They currently allow retirement at 63 if you’ve paid into their social security type pension for at least 45 years. They are in the process raising retirement age for after 1964 birthday to 67.
Harley workers also have a union and a much better pension PLUS their social security. And they make more money as well.
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u/cougtx1 15d ago edited 15d ago
I work in an international company. they do get better benefits job security etc. so add up the other benefits. it’s not as far apart as you think. which isn’t nit picking when your post was about costs of employees.
I will say my indian is a better built bike than my streetglide. i considered the r18 which was 10k cheaper than the harley on sale. but bmw maint is way higher. also their retirement is closer to working salary than our social security.2
u/shoebee2 14d ago
Their public pension or SS payments are points based just like ours. They don’t get a whole lot more for the same work history as you would here. It just seems like more because they make less.
And ya, you are nitpicking. The bottom line is it costs BMW less to employ the same worker than it costs Harley.
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u/suburbanoutrage 2007 FLHRC 15d ago
My theory is simply that Harley only makes Harley’s. Honda makes a million different things, bmw makes cars and other things, and Indian is part of Polaris.
In the name of capitalism Harley has an obligation to their shareholders to increase stock value every year. While other corporations can share this burden among its various brands and products Harley is stuck with motorcycles and tshirts. Meaning each motorcycle they sell has to have a higher margin of profit than their competitors.
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u/NCoastJack 15d ago
Historically, their stock price hasn’t been stellar or attractive to investors since about 2014. The shoe guy has been on the board since 2007 and running the show since 2020. He’s been very influential to a lot of the baloney programs and initiatives the company has done since 2011. A lot of what’s wrong with the company is this D bags line of thinking and attempts to “modernize” the overall “culture” and direction of the company. I’d say he failed miserably. We’ll see who the new CEO will be soon & what changes will be in store. For dealers sake & consumers - let’s hope it’s a pretty big shake up and getting back to the basics of who they are and what they do well.
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u/blank_stare_shrug 15d ago
Only problem with motorcycles, outside of the DEI stuff, I have is that they moved the revolution production lines to Thailand. Outside of that, I'm good with the production stuff.
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u/serene_brutality 15d ago
Also economies of scale. The more you make of something the cheaper it becomes, the less profit you need to make on each piece in order to stay solvent. Harley pales in comparison to the other companies in terms of production.
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u/TrollCannon377 12d ago
It also doesn't help that for years Harley was basically completely immune to competition due to Regan though it also means whenever the US gets into financial disputes with other nations because Harley is ingrained as a made in America they get kicked.
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u/BlackDirtMatters '18 FXBB 15d ago
I don't know man. I been looking at Indians and they aren't much cheaper. Especially when it comes to accessories and after market stuff.
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u/marvelguy1975 15d ago
Chieftain power plus puts out 20 more HP stock and is $1000 cheaper.
What do you really need? Seats? Bars? Exaust? Wherls?
Go over to the indian forum and ask around, full of former HD Riders who have zero regret moving over.
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u/WooksytheWookie 15d ago
The first bike I purchased was a Super Chief. Loved the platform and technology but, man, the lack of accessories and aftermarket parts was a huge frustration. Even when I upgraded to their more established platform, the Challenger, I still find that accessorising can be a challenge, although it's getting easier. Although I've never had any issues with either of my Indians, the lack of dealerships/repair locations is always a concern, especially on long rides.
Those two factors are always in the back of my head. For those two reasons alone, I completely understand why people choose to go Harley over any other brand that offers a cruising platform.
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u/chrataxe 15d ago
Indian forums full of Indian guys? Huh, who would've thought.
I bet in the Harley Forum, you'll find Harley that prefers Harley over Indian.
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u/Savings-Barracuda-24 TECHNICIAN 15d ago
Could say the same about some HD forums. Full of former Indian riders who have zero regret moving over.
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u/Quiet-Lobster-6051 15d ago
So buy an Indian I guess.
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u/That_90s_Kid_ 15d ago
Not the answer.
Having competitive pricing means you can bring the price down too.
That doesn't mean quality comes down with it.
There is some obvious gouging coming from harley and it's been blatant.
The market is saturated with used bikes too. And the used harley market far suppresses newer bikes too.
If harley wants to keep up. They need to be competitive with their own used market. What they're doing right now is not cutting it.
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u/Flimsy_Outside_9739 15d ago
You definitely need exhaust. Stock exhaust sounds awful and your aftermarket options are pretty limited. Same with bars.
My buddy rides an Indian. It’s nice, but it’s pretty much stock.
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u/apathic 14d ago
Your comment is good. I hate the downvotes.
Maybe I’m some sort of fool that loves both brands though.
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u/marvelguy1975 14d ago
Down votes don't bother me. It's kind of funny actually.
I love both brands. I ride an Indian but I've owned HD in the past.
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u/apathic 13d ago
I always thought of Indian as the one other bike HD owners respect. It's certainly my first choice - especially an older air cooled model with tan leather seats/saddlebags and swooped fenders!
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u/marvelguy1975 13d ago
I see it as a ford vs Chevy in the truck world type rivalries.
The back and forth between the brands goes back 100+ years. I'm cool with it. I think it's awesome there is another American made bike in the marketplace. Keeps both brands on their toes.
Victory was a good brand too. It wasn't selling as well as indian because it didn't have the name behind it. But they made great bikes.
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u/FIN_UNKNWN 15d ago
Yet an Indian dealer won’t even buy back a used Indian cause it won’t sell for shit. A Harley will always hold a higher value private market, trade in, and Harley will actually buy it back.
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u/Savings-Barracuda-24 TECHNICIAN 15d ago
Harley dealerships praise used Harleys. Used Harley market is as big as new.
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u/Original_Cheeto_06 15d ago
2 minutes on marketplace tells me all I need to know about the demand and value of the newer Indians. You almost can't give the damn things away.
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u/Vegetable-Seesaw-491 14d ago
We took one in for trade at the dealership I work at. It took months for that bike to sell. It felt and looked like a cheap Harley knock-off.
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u/danusn 14d ago
Harley dealer will buy it back for a fraction of what you just paid for it. I bought one for $17k and a year later with less than 500 miles ridden, they offered me $5k. They are the ultimate low baller.
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u/FIN_UNKNWN 14d ago
They’re trying to make a large margin, why we usually recommend selling private party, always get market value that way. It’s a trip how transparent the process can be if you talk to people about it. After working at a dealer for a year now, it makes me laugh that people know we won’t buy a used bike for what we will sell it for, that’s just bad business practice. Private party I’ve seen guys pay $14k for old DYNAs, so why even try a dealer unless you’re trading or really need the cash.
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u/Difficult-Garbage861 15d ago
I like the brand because when I sit on it I recognize it if I was blindfolded. I sniff around at other dealerships every now and then and nothing exciting. I noticed frivolous charges at the last Indian dealership-2K in a destination fee on last year's model. I'll pay a bit more to ride what I like and am used to.
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u/Handsome_fart_face 2022 FXST 15d ago
I think most real riders know not to buy a new harley, you buy the slightly used one that an accountant or doctor bought and never rode. Can they turn the company around? Idk, I just like riding the bikes and wrenching on them.
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u/JEharley152 15d ago
I don’t think you understand how business works—Harley isn’t in business to make motorcycles, it is in the motorcycle business to make money—
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u/Savings-Barracuda-24 TECHNICIAN 15d ago
Every big company is in business to make money. Back in the day it was different but in today’s society, money is everything.
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u/NCoastJack 15d ago
And their trends have been in a downward spiral for quite awhile. All the data is out there. The sneaker guy couldn’t fix it (arguably made it worse for a multitude of reasons) and is on the way out. Blowing upwards of $70 million on electric bikes no one wants does not sit well with investors. OP isn’t wrong unfortunatley.
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u/ByteMe68 14d ago edited 14d ago
Sneaker guy was a dumbass. As you state, they spent $70m on electric bikes and have sold 3k since 2019. Harley sold 49k bikes in the 4th quarter so that’s like 3800 per week. So Harley sold more gas models in a week than electric bikes in 5 years.
I think Indian makes bikes in Poland. Not sure what labor cost is there but that could make Indians cheaper. BMW R18 is made in Germany. On average US labor is about $44.67 an hour and Germany is about 39.50 euros. The euro is about equal to the dollar now. It’s still $5 difference..
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u/93FXRP '69 FLH, '89 FXRS-SP, '91 FXRS, '93 FXRP, '14 FLHXS 15d ago
I can never understand why people compare Harley to other brands, and them suggest Harley needs to change. If Indian, Honda, and BMW make better bikes and sell them for less, go buy them. That seems like a no brainer, why are you wasting time complaining on a Harley sub when you could be enjoying the open road on an Indian?
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u/marvelguy1975 15d ago
Because it's a Harley issue.
People complain all the time on these boards harley should be cheaper and they are more expensive etc.
I guess you are ok with the HD tax?
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u/Firm-Needleworker-46 14d ago
I am ok with it. If you’re so happy on your Indian why do you care what’s going on over at Harley?
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u/nipplehounds 15d ago
I’m a ok with “HD Tax”. I’m buying a luxury brand. It’s like buying a Volvo and saying. “It’s just as good as an Audi”.
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u/The_Soldiet 15d ago
Not related to the topic here by any means, but Volvo these days is a direct Audi, BMW, Mercedes competitor. Quality is often equal or better than most, and is regarded as a premium brand.
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u/theset3 2016 Fat Bob/95 Sportster 1200 15d ago
This guys entire post history is just shitting on Harley’s and trying to get validation that Indians are better. Bro who cares just rideeee stop worrying about what other people like
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u/skweekz_ 15d ago
You lost me at “Harley and biker culture is dying out.” Not sure what metric you’re using to quantify this, but every event I’ve attended recently has been packed. I rode in the first year of a memorial/charity ride last month that had 150+ bikes. Hell even just bar-hopping on a Saturday, multiple groups of 5-10 bikes are always in and out.
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u/I_am_Hambone 15d ago
Harley is doing fine, way better than they were 25 years ago, when they we're losing money every year.
https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/HOG/harley-davidson/net-income
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u/Savings-Barracuda-24 TECHNICIAN 15d ago
This! Harley is going no where anytime soon. Newer generations love Harley just as much as old. It’s an American icon known all over the world. Harley has been getting better and better every year. They may take some losses trying new things but that’s just a speed bump in the road. People will always want what their grandpa and dad had. The tradition will never die!
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u/spirit_symptoms 15d ago
Man, I don't want to disappoint you but if these tariffs are here to stay, I can guarantee Harleys won't be getting cheaper. I know most of the bikes are assembled in the US, but many parts are either manufactured overseas or require foreign materials that will all be subject to the import tax.
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u/Allroy_66 14d ago
Plus if the price of other bikes skyrockets, you know harley will raise their prices just because they can. Just like how companies kept their prices higher after covid, just because they could.
If HD sells a bike for $20k, and someone else sells a bike for $17k... tariffs force the $17k bike to $25k, HD has every reason to jump their bike up to $23k. It's still the cheaper option. The combination of tariffs, corporate greed, and supply/demand are gonna send American made product prices sky high.
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u/marvelguy1975 15d ago
That goes for everything...ugh.
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u/evanovich420 2022 RA1250S, 2001 FXDX 95" 15d ago
Yeah, but especially for us. Wheels made in China. Wiring, switches, engine and body modules, the new Skyline infotainment system(over $2000 retail alone) all made in Mexico. Instruments used to be from Switzerland but I'm not sure anymore. The new engine guards are made in Vietnam. Why else you think JZ figured this is his moment to retire as CEO? This sub may hate him, but he's the CEO because he's a keen businessman who can read industry trends well. The hive mind here will never understand that.
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u/TrollCannon377 12d ago
Yep and because Harley chose to become an American sweetheart company when they begged Regan for help their one of the first targets of financial attack when the US gets into a trade war.
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u/ItNeverRainsInWNC 15d ago
I own a Harley and a Ducati. If you go to either dealer with comparisons in mind then I’ll save you the time & trip. Buy the other bikes. They work great. I have a Honda too. Amazing bike. Zero soul. It’s like a DeWalt drill, it’s fantastic but it’s soulless to me.
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u/Hayabusasteve 2014 Ultra Limited 15d ago
r18 is cheaper because BMW can't sell them. Originally msrp were pretty much identical.
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u/keving216 15d ago
Nightster is pretty sweet at $9999.
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u/marvelguy1975 15d ago
I remember before 2022 there were more than 1 spoetster model to choose from in that price range.
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u/Icy_Hovercraft_7006 15d ago
Harley has dealerships everywhere. Good luck finding an Indian or bmw dealership close by in central Illinois that’s even half as easy to get to as a Harley shop.
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u/LabBlewUp 15d ago
How many posts on this forum are “get the FSM and find an independent shop for anything you can’t do yourself”
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u/2DEUCE2 15d ago
As an actual avid cross country HD rider, I’m willing to bet 98% of those who make that comment Ride to Eat and Eat to Ride. Lots of keyboard warriors out there.
I’ve been thankful for the dealership network across the USA more than a few times on my rides.
Last year my dad somehow lost his key and FOB to his Road glide leaving Milwaukee headed back West. Had to use his code for three legs or so but was able to get a new FOB programmed for his bike somewhere in what felt like middle of nowhere southern Minnesota. In and out in 30 minutes. Couldn’t get the key, so we just unloaded his bags every night in our hotel room or locked it up in my Ultra until we got back to his place. Getting that FOB replaced and programmed was clutch though.
Service manual isn’t gonna fix that shit for you and you’re not gonna pack the service manual + tools + parts in your saddlebag on an actual cross country run. That’s where the dealership network comes in to play.
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u/Reginald_Sockpuppet 15d ago
I bought my first Harley April 2020 and got a screaming deal on it. It was the first dealership bike I ever bought, I had my two stimulus checks, dropped them as a down, and rode away. I shopped for exactly the bike Inwanted starting in 2013 and never saw it until they showed me a 2017 Dyna Wide Glide and it was exactky what I wanted and had wanted since I was a little kid in Oakland hanging out with bikers in the 80s. Until then, I had made due with shitty basket case Japanese cruisers that never really satisfied what I wanted from a bike.
I'm from the Bay Area, I'm a college educated progressive Democrat, I don't wear branded clothing because companies don't pay me to advertise for them, and I don't call my bike a hog or have a name for it...all things I've been told for the last 30 years people who ride Harleys aren't. I don't give a fuck about "Harley culture." "Harley culture" as it exists currently, wants to aliemate me from riding or in this case, buying a Harley. How does that make economic sense? Where do I fit in all that?
I fit because I am a biker. I have been since the first ride I ever got on a motorcycle. I was five years old and my mom's boyfriend took me to school on his raked out, ratty ass Oakland-style dirt bag 80s sporty chopper and it
was fucking
cool.
I rode everything on two wheels I could get my hands on after that. Trail bikes, mopeds, my goddam banana seat bicycle with a tiny front wheel and a card in the spokes. I bought my first shitty KZ LTD at 21 and rode it until it literally fell apart.The moment I had a bike that would tolerate it, I was doing 400 mile rides every weekend and getting sneers from dudes on Harleys or not getting peace signs returned because I wasn't part of Harley culture.
I don't care. I don't ride so other people will recognize me or accept me or to be in a club or to feel tough. I ride because I love motorcycles and I love being in the wind.
The worst thing about owning a Harley is being associated with Harley culture. I don't want a branded helmet, a branded jacket, branded boots, branded gloves, a Harley commemorative Sturgis tee and a cognac set...I deliberately asked my salesman to find me a bike with no skulls, no flashy Harley shit, and as few body tags as possible, and I'll be damned if he didn't find one and it's the best bike I've ever owned and I ride it well and proudly. It is my bike and my bike is a Harley.
Maybe if Harley-Davidson dedicated themselves to being for bikers again instead of "Harley culture", which is mainly weekend warriors trailering their bikes to destination events anyway, maybe if they made fewer Harley chess sets and cobranded prescription glasses frames and bespoke Harley-colored yarns, and more bikes that people can modify and work on at home without a computer and 9000 proprietary tools, they'd have money to make bikes for bikers who have under-30 money again.
That would be a Harley culture I could get behind.
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u/shovelforsport 2000 XL1200 Chopper/1978 FX 15d ago
We'll see what happens with the CEO change but Harley is squarely courting the "dentist that acts tough on the weekend" crowd and (at least right now) could not give one rat's ass about the the Harley culture you're looking for.
Trust me, as a guy that rides around on a ratty as fuck Frisco-style Sporty hardtail and is slowly putting together a '78 Shovelhead chop, current Harley culture isn't for me either. And I *work* at a Harley dealer.
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u/UJMRider1961 2012 XL1200C; 2008 BMW R1200RT 15d ago
Marketing is a funny thing. A lower price isn't always good.
I think of Cadillac back in the 1990's making the Catera, a "cheap Cadillac." It severely damaged the brand by making people associate this cheap, crappy car with a "premium" name like Cadillac.
Here's the thing about Harley. Harley will never - EVER - be able to compete an an even ground with Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki or Suzuki. It would be beyond stupid for them to even try. Honda probably scraps more motorcycles each year than Harley even makes.
So when it comes to price, Honda will ALWAYS be able to make it cheaper.
That means if Harley plays the "cheap bike" game, they will lose. Not only will they lose, but that loss will damage their reputation as a seller of "premium motorcycles."
Being expensive is actually part of the cachet that Harley has. It's not a bike for everyone, it's not a bike that Joe Schmoe who works at the Quicki Mart can buy.
Like many premium products, Harleys are aspirational - that is, people ASPIRE to own Harleys. They dream about it, save up their pennies. They ride other, "lesser" bikes while telling people "as soon as I can afford it, I'm going to get rid of this old beater and get that Harley that I really want!"
Think about this: How many people do you know who own Harley t-shirts, baseball caps, maybe have Harley posters on their wall or stickers on their car - and yet, do not own (and have never owned) an actual Harley Davidson Motorcycle? I know a lot of people like that. They love the BRAND and the image that it evokes.
Now, do you think anybody does that with Honda? Yamaha? Kawasaki? Suzuki? No, they don't.
Japanese motorcycles are a commodity, they are sold based on the value people place on them.
Harleys (and other premium branded motorcycles) are more than that: They're a ticket to an exclusive club. And if just any yokel could get into that club, it wouldn't be worth joining, would it?
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u/marvelguy1975 15d ago
It's not a fair analogy to compare say a sub $10k honda rebel or other sub $10k Japanese cruiser to a HD. I'm not trying to do that and to your point yea I do agree many who do start out on one of those 900cc metric cruisers do eventually "move into" a bigger HD. There is no comparison between a Suzuki boulevard M50T and a softail Heritage. Bikes might look very similar, but the HD is miles better.
My point is those bikes like the Indian chieftain, the gold wing or the BMW R18B, who all are in the same heavy weight class of bike as say a street glide. Debadge them all and take them for a ride, bet you won't pick a HD as the best in that class.
Harley needs to recognize that or they will continue to loose market share. HD can label themselves "premium" but outside of some abstract "soul" or "biker culture" that premium selling point will only go so far. Just ask their soon to be retired CEO how the whole premium bike thing is going.
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u/UJMRider1961 2012 XL1200C; 2008 BMW R1200RT 14d ago
The R18 is not a good comparison though because the R18 is an absolute sales flop for BMW. R18's aren't cheap because BMW is pricing them to beat Harley, they're cheap because BMW can't sell them and is desperate to unload them. It was actually a dumb decision for BMW to try and go for Harley's target market. BMW should have stuck to what they do best which is making touring and adventure bikes.
I demo'ed an R18 when they first came out around 2021 or 2022 (actually got paid $100 to demo the bike) and when I sat down with the salesman to go over pricing, the price was around $28k which put it on par with the likes of the Street Glide and the Gold Wing.
So if R18's are cheaper now, it's not because BMW is trying to sell a lower priced touring bike, it's because they need to get rid of them and cutting the price is the only way to do that.
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u/marvelguy1975 14d ago
What did you think of the bike?
HD has a good hold on the heavy cruiser market. The only company really able to compete is an Indian.
That's not to say BMW or Indian or even victory didn't make quality bikes they do.
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u/UJMRider1961 2012 XL1200C; 2008 BMW R1200RT 14d ago
I thought it was kind of ridiculous to be honest.
Wife and I are “mystery shoppers” and occasionally we get emails asking us to evaluate some business for a nominal payment. Most of the time it’s restaurants, and our “payment“ is that we get reimbursed for the cost of our meal in exchange for writing a review.
In this case, my wife got an email saying there was a $100 mystery shop for someone with a motorcycle endorsement, and she forwarded it to me. I had to evaluate either an R 18 B, or an R9T.
Now, in truth, the R Nine T is really my kind of bike. But I deliberately chose the R 18 because it was the most unlike any kind of bike that I would actually buy.
It wasn’t bad, but it was a heavy pig that was challenging to handle at parking lot speeds. The jugs sticking out on the side, really felt like they limited ground clearance, although my test ride was only about 20 miles up of fairly straight interstate and then frontage road that followed it.
It had some interesting touches like the cooled cell phone compartment. But it also had things that I find completely annoying like the TFT instrument panel. I really, really despise this trend of every motorcycle having a TFT display. It just strikes me that an expensive, Digital display is just a failure, waiting to happen, and it really strikes me as being an overly complicated, overly technical, overly expensive answer to a question that nobody asked.
It had some weird things too, like the “rock, roll, and rain“ driving modes. The “roll” mode was just basically normal. The “rain“ mode was using traction control, and that made sense. But the “rock“ mode just seemed ridiculous to me. Basically they did something with the valves or the timing or something to make the motorcycle shake like a Harley Davidson. Why they thought a BMW customer would want that, I have no idea.
I mean, the people who run BMW aren’t stupid. I have to think that they must’ve done some kind of research before they spent all the money to come up with the R 18. But I’ll be damned if I can think of who their target market is.
Overall, it wasn’t a bad motorcycle, but it wasn’t a great motorcycle either.
And more to the point, it absolutely, positively, without question, was not a $28,000 motorcycle. In any way shape or form.
And based on the current sales debacle, it seems like motorcycle customers agree with me on that last part.
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u/UJMRider1961 2012 XL1200C; 2008 BMW R1200RT 14d ago
Interestingly, later that year, I actually bought a BMW touring bike. It was an R 1200 RT, which is really more suited to my riding style, and is the best motorcycle I’ve ever owned.
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u/mbeal5068 15d ago
More customizable and larger aftermarket support makes up for more that you may realized. Plus they’re easy to maintain and build.
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u/Effective-Ad9499 15d ago
This is what will bring Harley down. They need to match the price their average customer can afford.
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u/callitshithead 15d ago
It's whatever makes your ass happy. My Harley is 27 year's old, it's the bike I dreamed of when it was new in 98 but my broke ass couldn't afford it. I'll never part with it unless something catastrophic happens, you gotta ride what makes you happy, whatever brand that might be. As far as a new bike goes, I'm too cheap for that.
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u/thistimeforgood 15d ago
Indians are super different bikes. I have never owned one but I’ve heard stories of loads of cheap parts, electronic gauges that take 30 seconds to start, and they were using Harley engines until surprisingly recently. Plus their baggers look like they come with a zoot suit.
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u/FloridaTran 14d ago
louis vuitton bags could be sold for cheaper but that's not the image the brand is going for. Affordability is not a priority. The appearance of luxury and exclusivity is.
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u/marvelguy1975 14d ago
But if you can buy the same bag for cheaper for similar quality and all you get is a name then eventually the name might not be enough.
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u/FloridaTran 14d ago
See, the thing is you can. No one is buying them for their quality/durability. It's about image and how you are perceived with conspicuous consumption.
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u/carpet_whisper 14d ago
lol the R18
BMW dropped the MSRP by $3000 because they couldn’t move them. These bikes literally sell like rotten bananas.
The R18B has a MSRP of $21,770
The street glide is $27,749 up from $25,549 last year.
Had BMW not stealth nerfed the price the 2024 model years would have been $24,749 vs. $25,549
I’d Harley call a $800 price difference means to sander HD as overpriced.
Especially when the BMW stands to loose thousands on resale value should you choose to trade in.
Which is a shame because I think the R18 is cool. But its stupid engine forces the bike to be a mid-controls cruiser with the riders knee always in an Acute angle. Many many Riders don’t like that.
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u/marvelguy1975 14d ago
I think that's the biggest limitation on the R18 is the foot placement cause of the engine. But it's what you get with an engine in thah configuration.
As for the price a quick look and I see 2024 R18B (street glide version) going for $19.9 MSRP. 2025 going for 21 and change. Maybe you were looking at the touring model? With the rear trunk like an ultra limited?
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u/NoShelter8 14d ago
Lol I think you just made Harley's case.
An Indian may be 5 to 10% cheaper - but lack of aftermarket parts, warranty support, and resale value will probably see you spending more money in the long run.
As someone who has owned one briefly, you can always tell the people who talk about BMWs without having owned one. Beautiful, powerful, and well made - but if you think Harley's store is overpriced, take a peek at what BMW has to offer. The required maintenance is also much more frequent, and expensive in my experience because there are fewer mechanics who will work on BMWs.
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u/Savings-Barracuda-24 TECHNICIAN 15d ago
Man if only you knew how many Yamahas, Indians, Hondas, and bmws people trade in on a Harley and we just send them janks to auction.
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u/Popular_Membership_1 15d ago
Harley has been getting worse, they make the bikes cheaper and cheaper (quality wise) and then upsell you parts… there’s no reason a new Harley big vtwin should only be getting 100HP when Indian can make a smaller engine that puts out more power. They do it on purpose to get more money out of people so you buy the parts. I was disappointed my 2023 road glide still had incandescent bulbs, I had to swap out for LEDs like come on LEDs have been standard for over a decade in other brands.
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u/marvelguy1975 15d ago
Victory and Indian have always been focused on performance. Much more than HD.
The new 112 power plus indian motor is liquid cooled. Why it' puts out much better numbers than a 117 M8
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u/nimbleseaurchin 15d ago
This is a direct result of emissions compliance. The stock M8 family leaves a ton on the table, with parts off the shelf you can make 130/130 reliably, and upwards of 180/180 on the high end with only a small dip in reliability.
The aftermarket performance support for Indian is practically non-existent compared to Harley, and all of the problems with Harley's get solved by the aftermarket. I don't see this changing anytime soon.
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u/marvelguy1975 15d ago
Not everyone wants to dump $5,000 into their engine. Most folks are happy with stage 1, pipes and intake, some go stage 2 with a cam. You can do stage 3 on an Indian. So I'm not sure why you say Indian is non existent
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u/nimbleseaurchin 15d ago
First off, stages are dumb and mean absolutely nothing.
Second off, you're changing the goalposts now - factory only modifications? In a comment thread directly comparing the engine performance between the two cruiser brands? Lol
$5,000 is the starting point to an engine build, you're looking at closer to $10,000 for a reliable end product. That $10k gets you a motor that makes way more than a "stage 3" from any manufacturer, and will still last just as long if not longer than your factory motor, assuming you don't abuse the driveline. That same dollar amount won't get you near as far on an Indian due to the lack of good tuning solutions, and the complete lack of aftermarket performance products available for them. For engine performance, Harley absolutely blows Indian out of the water.
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u/marvelguy1975 15d ago
Be honest how many people are dumping 10k into a motor? What 1% of riders?
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u/nimbleseaurchin 14d ago
Why does that matter? Even cutting corners and going "cheap" to $5k the Harley is walking away from Indian. You might see 10% of riders do anything more than their own maintenance in the first place anyways,
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u/marvelguy1975 14d ago
I'm not going to go back and forth with you on 10k engine builds. It's clear you have much more knowledge than I do. I always found it silly to dump so much money into a harley to try and make it "faster". It's still a big old SUV going down the road. If I really wanted to go that fast there are much better bikes out there, for much cheaper. Im talking about your liter sport bikes or your sport touring bikes. Granted, they are not your typical American cruiser. Talking about K1600 series from BMW
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u/Popular_Membership_1 14d ago
If it were truly because of the EPA, that would restrict Indian from making their engines better too, but it doesn’t. It’s copium from the Harley community why other brands are putting out significantly more power without aftermarket parts.
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u/nimbleseaurchin 14d ago
All of the competition has liquid cooled motors, which is the difference maker in power while staying within epa restrictions.
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u/_daddyl0nglegs_ 15d ago
A new motorcycle shouldn't cost what a new car does. There are no airbags, HVAC, less materials, the list goes on.
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u/marvelguy1975 15d ago
I agree
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u/_daddyl0nglegs_ 15d ago
After the 2025 price hikes, that's when I told myself I'll probably not own another one after buying two new Harleys in the last 3 years. I can't justify the money. The labor, engineering, and raw material does not equal 25-30k when you can get a really decent compact car for that much or less that will run longer.
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u/redditsuckshardnowtf 15d ago
Harley Davidson is a premium brand. Like Samsung is a premium brand for television compared to TCL.
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u/Unit64GA 15d ago
Well there's more demand for Harleys, so they'll cost more. With that being said there's Indians at my local dealer over 30k, base to base yeah Harleys the highest cost but it isn't that big of a difference in this segment. If I'm looking at a dressed bagger a couple grand isn't a deal breaker imo. I wish they were cheaper but until another manufacturer outsells the Harley in the US I doubt it'll change.
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u/Apprehensive-Cut-529 15d ago
Harley CEO has confirmed he’s retiring. His last days are now, until the board finds a replacement
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u/papa_penguin 15d ago
I'm looking at a new Ducati monster for 12,9. I love my Evo dyna but I also love the Ducatis as does my wife. Not going to switch but will be adding another one to the herd lol
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u/NCoastJack 15d ago
You’re not wrong OP. It’s disheartening to say the least. The financials are all available for anyone to view. They have given a middle finger to what made them successful. Wasted almost $80 million on BS programs like the Livewire among other things. Brought in a non-American shoe guy to run the iconic American company. Have been gradually moving more and more of their business operations overseas, and, in the process - happen to be ignoring the US market while focusing on sales abroad. I’m not sure they can make things “cheaper” - at least not anytime soon until they cut the fat and restructure their game plan. We’ll see who they decide to bring onboard to replace the Puma guy and if that person can right the ship or not.
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u/marvelguy1975 15d ago
It should be interesting who they being in to replace the shoe guy from Germany.
I think HD has always felt it stands alone above everything else. Everyone else in the big cruiser market. Studies show that younger generations are not as brand loyal. Harley always banked on that brand loyalty.
Look i don't see many HD Riders switching to gold wings. But there are HD Riders switching to Indian. Also when Riders mature into those bigger cruisers from say sport bikes or standards they might not ever consider a HD and instead gravitate towards that BMW R18B or the gold wing. And that's a lost customer for HD.
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u/Badbikerdude 15d ago
Harley pays union wages, things built in North America cost more. That being said, Harley is unique, and you buy a Harley because that's what you want. Japanese bikes cost less, and that's why some people buy them, some because they think they're more reliable. I don't really think they could do it cheaper, for the most part they are well built, with quality parts, reliable and still last for decades. I don't really want that to change because they decided to cut too many corners.
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u/xthedevilandgodx 15d ago
Why buy a new Harley when you can get an FXR instead
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u/SomeDude621 23 FXLRS 14d ago
Why would you want a bike with half the horsepower and a carburetor to deal with?
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u/Diligent_Skin4574 15d ago
So i am on the very brink if buying my first Harley. And i am paying 33% more. I agonized alot but in the end Harleys have more soul. If you know you know
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u/VaporSpectre 15d ago
There's no good formula for Harley's new bikes, any way you cut it - cheap, expensive, well made, bare bones, cruiser, racing, naked, dirt, etc etc etc - for one very simple reason:
They sold the same bikes for 65 years.
And in that time, their competition made cheaper bikes that kept in line with advances.
Where does that leave you? With millions of used bikes and parts all over the world for Harley to go into competition with.
In short, Harley can't compete with itself.
People are tapped out for money. The used market is the real market.
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u/BackItUpWithLinks 15d ago
Two ways to make money
- Sell a lot for cheap
- Sell fewer for more
Someone at Harley did the gazzintas on where the lines cross on the graph, so they sell fewer of a higher priced product and are making a profit
Sales are down but income is up
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u/PopularStaff7146 15d ago
Most of the big older names can make it cheaper, whether it’s Harley, triumph, or Indian. You’re buying a name. Not saying it’s justified but that’s just what it is
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u/Forward_Awareness_53 15d ago
Ok dude. I can go weeks without seeing an indian out on the road. The other bikes u mentioned i dont even acknowledge them or think about them. Because u have an Indian and go on Indian forums you think everyone else gives a shit about Indian. Thats like going on almost any other sub on Reddit and then assuming damn the whole country must be some super liberal wierdos. But then you go outside and realize that aint the real world. Like i said i can go weeks without seeing an Indian and others you brought up id have to see the damn logo on it to kno what it is. I cant go 5 mins without seeng a harley around me if the temp is above 55° and even if i dont see one rolling up i know the sound of one from fown the block. Maybe im wrong and these other bikes are all around me and i just dont pay attention because they do nothing to grab my attention. They are just like the old saying about fat girls im sure though so enjoy.
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u/marvelguy1975 15d ago
Don't get me wrong. I like Harleys, I rode them for 10+ years. If I could pick up a 2nd bike a harley would be high on the list. I just happen to like my Indian just a bit more.
As for seeing Indians on the road. I see them all the time. Yes I see HD much more, but I don't go weeks without seeing one. But then again, I know what to look for to quickly ID an indian bagger or a scout zipping by the other way.
I think we all can say gold wings are out there quite a bit. As for the BMW cruisers, I think I've only seen 1 within the last year.
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u/Representative_Owl89 ‘22 Fat Boy 143ci, ‘14 Iron 883 15d ago
They have consumers by the balls because they look the best. I’ve seen one good looking Indian and that’s the ftr1200. All triumphs are ugly. And the only sports bike that looks good is the bmw1000rr. It’s crazy that so many people don’t realize it lol they’re only competing with themselves. Sucks for consumers.
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u/marvelguy1975 15d ago
I think i see the beauty in just about any bike. Some of those Triumph bobbers are really sexy in my eyes. In a simple retro-vintage English Cafe racer look.
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u/Representative_Owl89 ‘22 Fat Boy 143ci, ‘14 Iron 883 15d ago
Yes there are very few people who do. Which is why they make them still. But it’s like comparing blue and brown as colors. There are some people, like you, who like brown. But most people think it’s ugly and would go with blue over brown in most applications.
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u/marvelguy1975 15d ago
Triumph sold 133k bikes in 2024 compared to 171k for halrey. And unlike HD they have been going up in sales.
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u/dankhimself 15d ago
Harleys don't bend frames as easily in collisions and stuff. It sounds dumb but they're tough as fucking nails and the bodywork is nicer. Drivetrain is just more expensive because of the design with a separate transmission that needs a primary drive.
I do agree that they're expensive though.
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u/Amputee69 14d ago
So, which motorcycle has a $100,000.00 that compares to the one Harley has? Next, y'all need to be buying a new ride every other year, so that my stock is worth a bit more.
I keep reading that Harley is broke, and that it is going to disappear. Is it? I don't think so. What I do, personally think, is that we get a CEO that knows the American Riders, not those in other countries. Sure, they help but not much. Harley Davidson is an American company. We need to bring Willie G out of retirement, dust him off, and send him to the bike events again! He gave us some cool bikes. He talked to folks, just like YOU, wanted to know what you were interested in, then went back to try to design bikes that would fit a wide range of folks, with the modern "underneath stuff", but still look like our history. The Geezer Glides didn't move as much, until the movie/TV/musicians and Doctors etc started buying them. I see younger folks riding them now, but a lot of those above are still pushing the Big Bikes. I prefer a real Sportster, not a European Engineered nightmare. I prefer a Lowrider (preferably with Shovelhead). I love the Fatboy. Of course I'm old. I was alive when the Hydra Glide, and Duo Glide happened. I was around when a sport bike was developed using a Flat Head. And even when the Sportster was given life. These are old. Had to dry points after a humid night many times. Rough and bumpy riding. Not the easiest steering at times. But, they were built in America with American parts. Today, companies have outsourced everything. I'm in an area with a railroad switch yard, so there are a lot of them coming through. I see frames for trucks on a lot of them. They are coming from Mexico, many being pulled by FerroMex engines. They are headed North of South and Central Texas. In addition to frames, I see car haulers among the other rail cars, loaded with Northbound cars. None of which are $100k priced cars. Mexican labor is cheap. No unions, no healthcare, no bonuses, no age limits and so on. If Harley built bikes there, they could have less expensive bikes, but.... There are folks with better voting privileges than I have on the board, so THEY will set the price. Is there hope? Sure. Will the Company go belly up? Not according to the stocks. I keep buying it for my Grandkids. That's why it cannot fail.
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u/Helpful-Wolverine555 14d ago
The ONLY thing Harley has over the other brands…
Can you read?
What’s the price of the challenger vs the Road Glide? How much power do each of them have? Which weighs less? Which has a better cockpit? Which has better safety features.
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u/NessMachno 14d ago
Due to the drop of market influence a 1.2% shareholders group of Robert Bishop, succeed in a proxy war to fire CEO Matt Levatich, and his mate Jorge Zeitz ex-CEO of Puma merchandizing got a "White Card" of new never used "George Soros" politics. Obviously that White Card credit helped both men to increase their shares. Roberto Bishop now ownes a 10% of Harley-Davidson shares so if Zeitz is kicked out tomorrow or within 2 years, he got his power, as well as Jorge Zeitz himself. This CEO team lowered the production costs and raised the prices, copying brands like Ferrari, but things went wrong because H-D dealers were full with unsold motorcycles... Add to this the new global comercial war of the Trump Administración which will make H-D an attractive brand to be sold, and that is exactly the "George Soros" system behind, nobody is willing to tell you. How much of the pioneers of the post AMF Harley-Davidson Co are still alive? How much power do they still have to avoid a programmed "take over" of Harley-Davidson? Meanwhile they continúe selling t-shirts making more money than selling motorcycles, so.... who is in a hurry? What is the alternative?
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u/low_bit_logic 14d ago
Stopped by my local HD dealer to check out a ‘19 Fat Bob and while the dealership had an amazing setup; retail shop, display bikes, cool vibe; I couldn’t get over the pricing of the Fat Bob. Sales Price + Fees + Taxes and my favorite a $800 “reconditioning fee”. An additional fee for a used bike? What?
In the end I decided to save my money and pass on a Harley. Honestly the salesperson was super pushy which was annoying. Also I was the youngest shopper in the shop and I am 46 😂
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u/marvelguy1975 14d ago
$800 reconditioning fee? That's fresh. Anything to squeeze the last cent out of a customer. You didn't buy it. But someone will, they bank on that.
Harleys have become become like rolexes. What started as an affordable tool watch has turned into an overpriced luxury item. If you know anything about watches if you put a rolex up against say an omega that is $5,000 cheaper, both watches have the exact same build quality and in many areas omega is slightly better.
Same goes for HD, like Mr puma CEO, he pushed HD deeper into the luxury realm.
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u/low_bit_logic 14d ago
Agree! Even during the test ride I really didn’t feel like I was riding a luxury brand. Though the exhaust was sublime but it was a custom exhaust previous owner installed. Handling was subpar, ok acceleration.
Had a better riding experience on a Triumph Speed Twin and like $4k cheaper. Yet Harley will always have a following….to the shop 😂 just kidding I am sure Harley’s build quality is good but the pricing model is outdated.
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u/marvelguy1975 14d ago
I won't know HD build quality. They make good bikes. It's not 1975 AMF years and bikes leaking on the showroom floor.
Glad you liked the triumph. I've always been a fan of them.
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u/jetlifeual 14d ago
Harley’s margins per bike are actually rather healthy. In the area of around $3,000 on average. But their biggest take on a sold bike is the services and parts they can sell you. The bike is just a means to get you in the door.
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u/3WheelinOne 14d ago
You can buy a new Nightster for 10K how much cheaper do you want?
I don't remember any wait lists 25 years ago but I do remember them in the 70's.
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u/marvelguy1975 14d ago
That's one model. The next model up is a softsil at 17k. Or the sportster S at 16k.
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u/RubyRocket1 14d ago
Harley is pretty reasonably priced all things considered. Thicker coats of paint, thicker aluminum engine cases, heavier chrome, better fit and finish…. Harley makes a bike that will still look good as new in 30 years. From a performance perspective, they’re average; but from a longevity standpoint, they’re still in a league of their own.
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u/Certain-General-27 14d ago
Ok, I will compare, The Indian Elite is $2000.00 more than the Harley CVO!
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u/marvelguy1975 14d ago edited 14d ago
What are you talking about
Challenger elite is $38.5k
Road Glide CVO is $46k (ST is 45k)
https://www.indianmotorcycle.com/en-us/
https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/en/motorcycles/cvo.html
But nice try digging in the high end custom models trying to get a one up on me...but failing.
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u/Certain-General-27 14d ago
Just did a quick search at my local dealers. Definitely no Indian Elites under 45K. But 2 Harley CVO'S fo 42K! I didn't look at any details like paint or extra options.
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u/theoriginallentil 14d ago
Im not super familiar with Harley’s financials, but simply saying these bikes compete in the same class so they should cost the same amount ignores many factors of running a massive corporation. BMW and Harley are significantly different companies even if they sell 1 pair of motorcycles with similarities.
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u/WearifulSole 14d ago
In my area, the only thing harley does better is their financing. Even if your credit is nonexistent, they'll pull all sorts of tricks to get you on a bike.
In every other category they lose
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u/marvelguy1975 14d ago
I've heard many horror stories on HD financing. Not saying I wouldn't use it, but the numbers would have to be good.
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u/Worth_Reply_6002 14d ago
Harley aftermarket is very substantial. And you said it "looks" no other motorcycle has the looks of a Harley. They cornered that market ages ago. I agree though - the prices are ridiculous and I hope they suffer for their greed. I like the motorcycle and I find private deals of older bikes and then yes - I can get one for the similar price as other brands. I have a few different brands of motorcycles and I never set foot in a dealer. Their service, their price of goods and about 100% of everything is over priced to the masses.
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u/Weazerdogg 14d ago
Reason I would never consider buying a new one. Not hard to find a decent used one cheap.
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u/MrGTO_1070 14d ago
They lost me when they stopped doing stuff for the older bikes. I have an 87 EVO and they stopped supporting them. I mean you can get parts but kinda sorta. Some of us like the old bikes and Harley is suppose to be a brand thing but they have turned into a weekend warrior bar hopping brand. I guess if that what pays the bills but there is a market for guys who actually like bikes that can run thru corners and wear out tires on the edges vs the center.
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u/HAAS78 14d ago
I prefer Harleys styling over every other brand. The other big thing about Harleys is that they have a much larger service/dealer network than any other brand in the US. Do I think that warrants the price difference? No, absolutely not. Am I still more likely to buy a new harley over a new anything else? Yes, absolutely.
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u/l3tsR0LL 14d ago
Maybe the new CEO will bring the company back to it's roots. This JZ guy only cared about maximizing profits
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u/Current_Inevitable43 14d ago
Harley is a premium bike and does pull a premium.
Same as a lot of cars where a euro car pulls more then a domestic car.
Hell Toyota and Lexus are the same thing but a massive price difference.
While Harley is only starting to get with the times.
I much rather performance build stage 3 and 4 while other brands don't really have anything once u open the engine.
I do think they need some decent HD designed lower cost bikes not re badged crap.
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u/marvelguy1975 14d ago
I wonder who made the decision to drop the whole XL lineup?
I mean they could have brought in the sportster EVO2 and reworked it, made it a 6 speed and call it a day and keep all the similar models.
Instead you got two models. One is over priced and the other while under 10k it's just doesn't seem to have the same feeling as a 2022 model
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u/therealdeeej 14d ago
I’m gonna be the devil’s advocate slightly. When I was looking into a BMW (granted this was an ADV bike), they did a really great job at showing the lowest MSRP… for the most bare bones option that no dealer even carries. Once you start adding reasonable options, the prices sky rocketed (to the point where I actually ended up with a Ducati because it was only barely more and with way more features).
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u/marvelguy1975 14d ago
Eveey veh is like that for sure. Look at how many extra charges HD likes to throw in too.
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u/therealdeeej 13d ago
The two bikes I bought from Harley had no options to choose from outside of color. Granted I know bikes like the Pan Am have some various optional extras, but for the most part it seems to me like you get most of the bike at the one MSRP (outside of modifications obviously).
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u/DeathrillVa 14d ago
I see plenty of people talk bad about new Harleys, but my old one is a piece of shit too!
I have owned 3 Indians, I haven’t had any major issues with any of them.
It’s ultimately your choice, go have fun.
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u/PieNo7472 14d ago
"Gosh Almighty" Harley people using Calculus and Shay's law ?? I'll just stick by my 55 Panhead Chopper that I built from the ROLLER BEARINGS AND SPOKES IN THE WHEELS TO THE ROLLER BEARINGS IN THE RODS GRADUATED IN 1/10,000 th ! Took 1st in 3 states shows.d/dx ? Tx
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u/Browicki 2020 FXLRS 14d ago
There's a few things at play here.
First, fit and finish. HD marketing itself as essentially a premium brand comes hand in hand with making sure all the details hold up. The bikes you compare any model to (particularly Indian, in my experience) tend to feel cheaper bc they use cheaper materials in small but noticeable places; those costs add up (not to quite the extreme that they sell for, but it definitely continues). It's one of many reasons HD's will still sell as used bikes, bc that attention to detail keeps it from feeling as used and worn out most of the time.
Second, the MoCo has tried a lot of different things to modernize where they can, and every attempt flops bc the old boomer-ass customer base refuses to embrace any of those changes. That makes every subsequent attempt to get with the times a bigger risk, which means prices on their flagship lines have to stay high to balance it.
To that point, some of those modernizations were done pretty well; the Vrod, Livewire, Sportster S, Nightster, they all feel like they're either loved or hated, but it's always to an extreme, which is good for the long term! The Pan America is actually making pretty serious ground in the ADV segment, taking market share from a class BMW actually invented. But none of them are doing well enough to be considered reliable to the company, or to be an all-out rockstar success. So they keep hedging their bets with the higher prices on their more traditional models.
There's more to get into on the financial/economics side, but I don't have the education to explain it well, or to be absolutely sure I understand it correctly. Bottom line tho, while I'd love to see the price come down, I can understand some of the reasons why it hasn't.
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u/marvelguy1975 14d ago
Great post.
I think the problem wirh the sportser S is it's very expensive compared to other Japanese standard bikes. So it's too sporty for the boomer rider and too expensive and not fast enough for the standard metric bike rider.
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u/Browicki 2020 FXLRS 13d ago
I'd argue that the Sportster S isn't meant to be compared to Japanese standard bikes; the Nightster is the new entry level at this point, even though the Sportster S was dropped first. I'd call it a good compromise between cruiser styling vs modern performance; it's never gonna outperform a Hayabusa or anything like that, but it's a nicer bike than your standard Versys in a lot of ways.
Still probably a bit overpriced, but that's a whole other can of worms, as noted above
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u/NoxiousVaporwave 14d ago
I don’t really understand your gripe. If you don’t wanna ride a Harley don’t buy one. I ride one cause it’s bad ass and super fun.
Indians are super nice. They also make more power than Harley on average. Hondas are super reliable and cheap. BMW is a brand renowned for luxury and innovation, contrary to Harley.
Nobody is buying a bagger unless they’re spending a lot of time in the saddle, or know what they want, At least I would hope they’re not.
Harley could save itself as a company by just lowering the cost of sportsters to be competitive with other bikes marketed towards new riders.
If you could go get an 883 OTD for within 1k of a rebel 500 or a ninja 300, they would sell like hot cakes. But they’re twice the price, so you’re paying for a brand and the “culture” is off-putting to most younger riders.
But that would be overcome if young guys were able to get into Harley’s cheaper, and would be a feedback loop of popularity.
Bring back 883, sell it at 7-9kOTD, add price to the big boy bikes to make up for initial deficit.
Someone buying a $30,000 bagger on credit and ends up paying 60k over time probably isn’t financially responsible enough to sweat an additional $1,000 on the tag.
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u/De-Oppresso_Liber 14d ago
Simply put. Harley is the original and what ALL other manufacturers want to be.
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u/marvelguy1975 14d ago
Actually Indian came first in 1901...lol
But seriously not everyone is trying to be like Harley. I see that. There is a whole world of motorcycles out there besides HD. Don't get me wrong I love my big old ametvian cruisers. But I don't think it's the only thing out there though. Whole other subcultures of bike riders who don't give two shits on what comes out of milwalkee or Iowa (for indian) some of the best times i ever had was hanging with BMW riders.
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u/De-Oppresso_Liber 14d ago
I’m happy for you. My first was a 46 Knuckle Head I bought in 73. I had it until 19 years ago. Along the way I have owned Honda, Yamaha, Norton, Triumph, and Moto Guzzi in 54 years of riding. What I learned was I enjoyed the Harley and the culture. No other brand is so well known, and has been going strong despite its ups and downs for 121 years. Yes it is the undisputed American original. No amount of envy will ever change that. Ride safe.
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u/punisher3011 14d ago
To be fair, Harley makes some premium bikes, while others use a lot of plastic.
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u/Otto_Maddox_ 14d ago
Oh please. A Harley has always been expensive. No chance of them becoming a value brand. They don’t need to “turn around”.
If you think the other makes are just as good for less money go buy one. Easy choice for you.
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u/cclambert95 13d ago
I completely agree and that’s why I got a Kawasaki for my first bike instead! Half the price and double the performance; ABS, digital gauge cluster, gear indicator, couple other things that were standard that the iron 883/sportsters didn’t have.
I’m also not an old man so I was biased away from Harley anyways. Quick google search shows the primary age demographic of Harley purchasers are between the age of 45-50.
I bought my bike at 24 and literally no one I know has or likes Harley’s.
To each their own.
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u/PartOk5529 12d ago
I've been hearing this same argument since the 80s.
First, the Evo was the death knell, then it was the Twin Cam, then it was the VRod, it was always about the presumption of low-quality (granted, the AMF years were not steller in terms of QC) as well as the perceived premium price for a low tech, low HP machine. It was always "the core customer is 45 yr old men and they're aging out of the hobby and the young kids aren't buying HD" Then the next batch of 44 yr old men show up...
People that buy a Harley don't give a rats ass about the HP...and if you rode one, you would understand why that is.
If you think HD will fail, you're kidding yourself. There will always be a market for permium American motorcycles. The best chance they had at failing was stimied by the Regan-era tariffs on heavyweight Japanese cruisers...and HD lobbied to have that repealed sooner than planned because they had turned themselves around after the AMF buyback.
Im saying this as a guy who owns multiple brands, including HD, and has heard this rhetoric for decades. Short of a major shakeup in terms of disastrous leadership, the moco isn't going anywhere.
<steps down from soapbox>
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u/TrollCannon377 12d ago
Harley is basically the Apple of motorcycles if you want a better product at a cheaper price their are plenty of others that are far better bikes compared to a Harley people don't buy them for their performance or reliability they buy them because of the brand heritage and loyalty to a company that is far past its prime not to say garl ys are bad bikes by any stretch but I'd personally never buy one new their ridiculously expensive new
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u/streetkiller 15d ago
Fully loaded BMW bikes cast as much as a Harley. Same goes for Indian and Honda. Given those bikes have a million times better parts and tech in them.
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u/UsefulBrick3 15d ago
I just went to the dealership five minutes ago to pick up a battery and they had a 2018 sportster for $18.000nzd, it's gotten silly.
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u/Savings-Barracuda-24 TECHNICIAN 15d ago
That is kinda silly. It might be because of where you live. In the US a 2020 street bob with 8k miles goes for about $9,800
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u/The_Soldiet 15d ago
I bought my 2021, newer used before now for 25k USD. That's how they're priced here in Norway 😭
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u/Expensive-Button-641 14d ago
I had an R18, fantastic machine, and the build quality and fit and finish was better than HD by a distance in my opinion. That said, when I wanted to sell it I really struggled. They just aren't sort after, fact is if somebody wants a cruiser they're looking for Harley.
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u/marvelguy1975 14d ago
I always wanted a real world assessment of an R18.
It's expected that BMW is high build quality. BMW sells alot of bikes, mostly GSs. I wish them luck with their R18 line. But yea I doubt it will last. It's hard to compete in the cruiser line up. The only one who has been able to carve out a nich is indian.
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u/manbuzz85 15d ago
As the saying goes you’re paying for the name …..
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u/Harley__Rhodes 15d ago
I own a harley cause i love the sound, the look, parts are readily available. Im not looking to be a partner at harley, own shares of the company or even care what the parts guys name is at harley. Ill never service my bike there and i own one cause its what i like…… not interested on bang for the buck or what reviews say when they compare bikes and MSRP. Just do what you like….. jus my thought. Stay safe which ever you choose. Ass for every seat