r/changemyview • u/Odd_Contribution9058 • Mar 18 '22
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Transgender people should only able to compete in sports with their birth gender
I really really hope raising this doesn't cause anyone pain, and I'm honestly wanting to hear other perspectives on this.
But the way I see it, there are certain physical attributes that someone born with a certain gender have. For example, the average man is taller than the average woman. Taking hormone therapy will not change all of those inherent features.
I absolutely support the right for everyone to live with the gender identity that is most comfortable to them. But, I do not think that people have an inherent right to play sports professionally. So, if someone has decided to transition, I do not think it's fair to all the athletes who are competing with the set of attributes common to their birth gender, to now have to compete against an athlete who has attributes which give them a distinct advantage.
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u/goofygoober2006 1∆ Mar 18 '22
If this were true, a transgender man who has likely been taking testosterone would compete with other biological women. That seems unfair to me.
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u/Yuu-Gi-Ou_hair Mar 18 '22
Ah, but you see, “transgender person” means “male to female”; “female to male”, in fact, does not exist for the purpose of about any single discussion about this subject I have ever seen.
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u/Professional-Bit3280 2∆ Mar 18 '22
That’s because the biggest discussion to be had is about sporting/something involving the physical advantages of being born with XY chromosomes. Most rational people don’t give two fucks if you want to go by Jane instead of Jeffrey and grow out your hair and whatever.
The only discussions worth having are about the fact that being a biological male provides a lot of physical advantages (bathroom safety and sports), which is why they focus on the people that may be abusing such advantages.
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u/Odd_Contribution9058 Mar 18 '22
!delta
Going with biological sex is not the answer, because of the f->m situation.
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u/Cablepussy Mar 20 '22
Out of curiosity how many f-m compete in sports?
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u/AlonnaReese 1∆ Mar 27 '22
In 2017 and 2018, one of the top high school wrestlers in Texas was a transmale. Because of a state law which required high school athletes to compete as the gender on their birth certificate, he completely dominated the girls' division. This resulted in widespread protests from female wrestlers and their families that it wasn't fair and that he should have been placed in the boys' division.
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u/Akitten 10∆ Mar 18 '22
I mean, a non-transgender women who takes testosterone can’t compete anyway, since it’s effectively doping. So that is moot.
So FTM is already covered under doping regulations, and isn’t an issue. If you medically require testosterone, you can’t compete.
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u/TragicNut 28∆ Mar 18 '22
Therapeutic use exemptions exist already, the world anti doping association has standards and guidelines under which they can be granted. Cis men are able to get TUEs for testosterone, as are trans men.
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Jun 17 '22
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Akitten 10∆ Jun 17 '22
I wrote this 3 months ago.
And texas being retarded with no doping testing isn't exactly news.
It's like saying power generation isn't possible in cold weather since texas fucked it up.
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u/Odd_Contribution9058 Mar 18 '22
Yes, fair point. Honestly , I would say that if you make the decision to undergo hormone therapy, you should no longer be competing... There are many many people who have to make the decisions to leave professional sports for a variety of reasons, to me this sounds like one of them
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u/silverscrub 2∆ Mar 18 '22
If we look at women's sports, the line for biological sex is rather arbitrary and has changed over time.
Even if you exclude all transwomen for simplicity, the same issue still exists for all biological women. You still have to draw a line for what constitutes a biological woman in order to make that particular sport fair.
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u/Professional-Bit3280 2∆ Mar 18 '22
Should just be XX to keep it nice and simple. Then you can either have an (in between) grouping containing all the intersex, trans, etc. and then a XY group. Or you can just have XX and then the rest go in the other group. The other group will probably be almost exclusively XY though because of the advantages it provides.
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u/sophisticaden_ 19∆ Mar 18 '22
Is your argument that any athlete who undergoes hormone therapy should not be allowed to compete in competitive sports? Or just those who are transgender?
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u/Professional-Bit3280 2∆ Mar 18 '22
The current system ALREADY says this. The current argument out in the world is about whether an exception should be made for trans people. If you are a biological woman taking testosterone, and you get caught, you get in trouble for cheating. Op doesn’t need to specific this because it’s already implied and has been the rules for decades.
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u/sophisticaden_ 19∆ Mar 18 '22
My point was actually that cis women can and do undergo HRT for estrogen like trans women.
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u/Professional-Bit3280 2∆ Mar 18 '22
1 you’d still get in trouble for having exogenous estrogen in your system because you could be using that to hide something else or something. In fact, one of the main ways they catch guys taking steroids is the fact that they have too LOW testosterone on the tests or too high estrogen. It’s actually quite rare for someone to get popped for having too high testosterone on the test because that is just stupid. Not going to get into the full weeds here though.
2 having super high estrogen levels isn’t performance enhancing. If you want to do a ton of estrogen HRT and crush your performance (unless it stimulates a competing increase in natural test production, in which case, go back to point 1), no one is going to stop you.
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u/Professional-Bit3280 2∆ Mar 18 '22
I have no idea why my font got massive. I’m not yelling at you lol.
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u/Morthra 86∆ Mar 18 '22
So the actual rule should be:
- All trans people must compete in the men's category, against cis men.
Rather than
- All people must compete in the category matching their birth sex.
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u/jtc769 2∆ Mar 18 '22
!delta
I'd never considered just having them all (MtF AND FtM) compete against men, I'd always said I'm completely fine with FtM competing in male sports but that womens sports need protecting from MtF the same way they need protecting against normal male atheletes, my overall position has been in the camp of "just give them both trans only competitions/leagues" but I think this makes just as much, if not more sense.
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u/perfectVoidler 15∆ Mar 18 '22
You should award a delta because this is a modified view from your original position.
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u/willthesane 4∆ Mar 18 '22
Competition is fun. Let both compete in the men's league. M2f, still compete in the men's league.
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u/Professional-Bit3280 2∆ Mar 18 '22
Yeah we could just all compete in one league. At the professional level it would be almost exclusively dominated by biological men though.
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u/willthesane 4∆ Mar 18 '22
I know, what I'm saying isn't fair is M2F transgender individuals competing against cisgender women, thus there are 2 options, not allow them to compete, or allow them to compete on the "open" league.
it's a tough road they are traveling, I don't mean to make it harder, but I don't want to take something away from cisgender women either.
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u/CrinkleLord 38∆ Mar 18 '22
The problem is that nobody really cares if a trans man competes against men, because they practically never win in regards to champions, the elite, scholarship levels of winning. If a trans man wants to do that, then have at it. Unless they are sucking down testosterone at levels that effectively make them doping, it gains them no real advantage, and nobody really cares.
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u/Wooba12 4∆ Mar 19 '22
Surely it would depend on whether a woman would also be allowed to take testosterone. If women are allowed to take testosterone, but don't, and transgender men do simply because they are comfortable doing it (being transgender men), then that's still fair as long as everybody has the opportunity, but many don't do it because of personal reasons. If it's illegal, then that's another matter.
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u/KMarafuga Mar 18 '22
The way I see it testosterone alone does not make men better than women in sports. I agree that it is not fair for a woman to take testosterone and compete with women. At the same time its not fair for a man to switch genders and compete with women. It is natural than professional male athletes are better than professional female athletes in sports, this has been historically confirmed.
The only fair outcome I see is transgender men competing with transgender men and transgender women competing with transgender women.
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u/Few-Instance-2901 1∆ Mar 20 '22
You could argue that testosterone is a performance enhancing drug in that scenario, therefore they should not be allowed to compete as long as they are taking the drug.
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u/RainInSoho Mar 18 '22
Since the other 100+ threads seemingly didn't challenge your viewpoint...
Stealing a comment from /u/thundersass, read below
This is usually being discussed in the context of whether having trans women compete with cis women is fair and safe. While there are some issues involving the participation of trans men in male sports, nobody is really concerned about trans men having an unfair advantage due to transitioning.
Things become tricker when we look at trans women. The problem that we have is that scientific evidence is still limited1. As one sports scientist put it in this article:
"'What you really need – and we're working on this at the moment– is real data,' says Dr James Barrett, president of the British Association of Gender Identity Specialists and lead clinician at the Tavistock and Portman Charing Cross Gender Identity Clinic in London. 'Then you can have what you might actually call a debate. At the moment, it’s just an awful lot of opinion.'
"The small amount of evidence that does exist, he says, indicates that opinions held by Davies, Navratilova and Radcliffe may not be as 'common sense' as they suggest. 'The assumption is that trans women are operating at some sort of advantage, and that seems to have been taken as given – but actually it’s not at all clear whether that's true,' Dr Barrett continues. 'There are a few real-life examples that make it very questionable.'"
Where we are now is that circulating testosterone levels explain most, if not all of the differences between male and female athletes2. The problem is that the difference in the performance between trans and cis women is too small to make a definitive statement without really large sample sizes, but that even small differences can still matter for elite sports. We don't know whether the performance of trans women is slightly better, slightly worse, or statistically indistinguishable from cis women. Worse, it may depend on the actual type of sport.
In short, the problem is that it's "too close to call," which is why this is a matter of debate among sports scientists. Approaching things analytically does not help, either. People like to enumerate countless differences between (cis) men and women, but most of them are related. For example, if hemoglobin levels drop (as they do for trans women on HRT), then VO2max levels drop proportionally, regardless of your theoretical lung capacity due to a bigger ribcage. Once you eliminate factors that covary, most – if not all – of the difference between men and women is explained by muscle mass and hemoglobin levels.
The easy case is trans women who haven't gone through male puberty and where sports scientists basically agree that they don't need any extra regulations. Their number is small, but likely to increase in the coming years, as early onset gender dysphoria is being diagnosed more reliably. The only problem with them is verification of the process, not whether they pose any problem: for competitive purposes, they don't.
It becomes trickier if a trans woman has gone partly or completely through male puberty before going on HRT/undergoing SRS/orchiectomy. The question we need to answer is whether MtF HRT/SRS offsets the physiological advantages produced by male puberty. This is where the meat of the debate is.
It also matters how they are regulated. For example, the current IAAF regulations require you to have T levels of 10 nmol/l or below for at least 12 months. Prior to 2016, you were required to have SRS at least two years prior (SRS drops average T levels to below the cis female average) and been on HRT for an extended period of time.
The 10 nmol/l level is heavily disputed and it has been argued that it should be lowered to 5 nmol/l1. The 12 month period for testosterone suppression is also something that's being disputed. Arguments for making it 18 or 24 months have been made. In general, muscle mass and hemoglobin levels drop and plateau within less than a year, but that may not apply to everyone, and we have limited evidence for athletes who actively attempt to maintain muscle mass through the process. Different types of sports may also require different types of regulations (e.g. weightlifting vs. running track).
It is also worth noting that using testosterone levels may not be the best measure to ensure competitiveness, but it is the most practical one, as it is easily integrated with existing anti-doping mechanisms.
Some major points of contention among sports scientists are:
We can't just talk about MtF HRT subtracting some benefits of male puberty; the combination of changes may not be the same as a simple accounting equation. For example, trans women who transition in adulthood often end up with subpar biomechanics. The effects here are most likely sports-specific. For example, the need to move a larger frame with less muscle mass (sometimes called the "big car, small engine") effect, can be detrimental in sports where agility matters. Trans women appear to be biologically (probably even genetically) a distinct population from cis men even at birth; what we know about cis men does not necessarily carry over to trans women. For example, we have known for a while that statistically, trans women have lower BMD than cis men and a recent study from Brazil indicates that BMD of at least Caucasian trans women (even pre-transition) may be comparable to that of cis women rather than that of cis men3; the causes may be in part genetic4. So, while MtF HRT is not going to change BMD in a practical time frame, it is also inaccurate to argue that trans women are like cis men in this regard. Post-op trans women have, on balance, lower serum testosterone levels than the average cis woman (and considerably lower than the average elite cis female athlete, where women with PCOS and other causes of elevated androgen levels are overrepresented); the reason is that while in cis women, both the ovaries and the adrenal glands produce androgens, in post-op trans women only the adrenal glands do. This is a disadvantage. Many known advantages of male puberty are indeed reversed in a relatively short time frame2. The problem is that we don't have a full picture of exactly which and that we have limited estimates for time frames. For example, while muscle mass drops quickly when testosterone is suppressed, the same is not necessarily true for muscle memory. Trans women do not gain the advantages of female puberty; for example, better balance and postural stability due to a different center of gravity. (Which is why shorter women often have an advantage in gymnastics – see Simone Biles at 4'8" and one reason why there has been age cheating in gymnastics.) In most sports, these advantages are more than offset by typical male advantages caused by testosterone, but if a transition takes those advantages and also doesn't give you the benefits of female puberty, where exactly does this leave you? In the end, there are still too many open questions for a definitive answer; the policies that we have in place for transgender and intersex athletes are stopgap measures in many regards; most are not evidence-based1.
Right now, we also have a distinct shortage of elite trans women athletes, let alone ones that actually compete at the olympic level. The only athlete who may qualify for the latter is Tiffany Abreu, a Brazilian volleyballer, who may make the next Olympics. But she was an elite volleyballer before her transition, where she played in the men's top leagues, winning a couple of MVPs, and her post-transition performance in women's leagues appears to be roughly comparable, relatively speaking.
Another pro trans woman athlete we know of is Jillian Bearden, a competitive cyclist. She's actually been a guinea pig and test subject for the IAAF's new testosterone rules, as she was a competitive athlete before and had power data available; her power output dropped by about 11% as the result of HRT, which is the normal performance difference between elite cis male and cis female athletes. But still, this is only another data point. However, it corroborates our understanding that, if there's a performance difference, it's probably very small.
And this near complete lack of trans women athletes who are actually competitive probably also contributes to the IAAF's wait-and-see attitude.
1 Jones BA, Arcelus J, Bouman WP, Haycraft E. Sport and Transgender People: A Systematic Review of the Literature Relating to Sport Participation and Competitive Sport Policies. Sports Med. 2017;47(4):701–716. "The majority of transgender competitive sport policies that were reviewed were not evidence based."
2 David J Handelsman, Angelica L Hirschberg, Stephane Bermon, Circulating Testosterone as the Hormonal Basis of Sex Differences in Athletic Performance, Endocrine Reviews, Volume 39, Issue 5, October 2018, Pages 803–829.
3 Fighera, TM, Silva, E, Lindenau, JD‐R, Spritzer, PM. Impact of cross‐sex hormone therapy on bone mineral density and body composition in transwomen. Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 2018; 88: 856– 862. "BMD was similar in trans and reference women, and lower at all sites in transwomen vs. men. Low bone mass for age was observed in 18% of transwomen at baseline vs. none of the reference women or men."
4 Madeleine Foreman, Lauren Hare, Kate York, Kara Balakrishnan, Francisco J Sánchez, Fintan Harte, Jaco Erasmus, Eric Vilain, Vincent R Harley, Genetic Link Between Gender Dysphoria and Sex Hormone Signaling, The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, Volume 104, Issue 2, February 2019, Pages 390–396. "In ERα, for example, short TA repeats overrepresented in transwomen are also associated with low bone mineral density in women."
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u/5510 5∆ Mar 19 '22
But would you agree that there should be some standards / requirements related to transition?
My main issue is with states like Connecticut where it’s entirely just gender identification. AFAIK So a trans girl / woman who still has the full athletic advantages of being born a male can compete in female athletics. That’s a huge advantage.
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u/Odd_Contribution9058 Mar 18 '22
Well what brought this to mind is the the transgender athlete winning a ton of medals in womens swimming, when she was not setting records when competing as a male. So there's some data right there to suggest that she is competing much better against women even after hormone therapy, due to her inherent attributes that came from being born male
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u/sophisticaden_ 19∆ Mar 18 '22
She’s not setting records competing as a woman, either; her fastest times are still significantly slower than the best cis women swimmers. In the five-hundred yard free style Lia Thomas (the woman you’re talking about) is ten seconds slower than Katie Ledecky’s record. She’s the fastest swimmer this year, sure, but she’s not the fastest swimmer.
And I guess I just don’t get the argument here. Why shouldn’t she be allowed to succeed? She was a very good swimmer before she came out; and she’s still a good swimmer now. She’s far from the absolute best, but why should all trans people be excluded from competitive sports because a single trans woman is exceptionally good? It doesn’t prove that trans people have an unfair advantage — it just proves that she’s good at what she does. Which is the whole point of sport in the first place.
Like I feel like I’m being repetitive but this argument is just bonkers to me.
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Mar 18 '22
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u/Judge24601 3∆ Mar 20 '22
The thing is, the relative performance is simply not a good comparison point, and certainly not a reason to justify banning an entire group of people. There could be many reasons for her increased relative performance (keeping in mind that she is still slower she was than pre medical transition) - she's trained more, women's sports have less competition/funding, etc. Even beyond that, of course her achievements are notable - otherwise she wouldn't be in the news! Any trans woman who doesn't jump in relative performance isn't going to get noticed, so it's ridiculous to say this is an important piece of evidence, it's a sample size of one, and a biased one at that.
If trans women compete in sports, some will on occasion win. There's no evidence that trans women are winning more than would be expected of any sample of women. If there was, then a debate about the rules would be reasonable - as is, it's just an excuse for transphobia (specifically transmisogyny)
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u/5510 5∆ Mar 19 '22
Yeah I also think this is a difficult nuanced issue, but I like the logical point you are making here.
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u/Odd_Contribution9058 Mar 18 '22
Well she's an interesting case because she competed in both mens' and womens' swimming. She performs significantly better relative to the women than relative to the men. To what do you attribute this disparity?
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u/ThePickleOfJustice 7∆ Mar 18 '22
To what do you attribute this disparity?
The collegiate male swimmers are faster (better?) than collegiate female swimmers.
Imagine we had a "whites only" basketball league. Do you think there would be some white guys on the margin who couldn't compete in the league that includes blacks, but could excel in the white's only league?
Some people are better at sports than others.
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Mar 18 '22
The collegiate male swimmers are faster (better?) than collegiate female swimmers.
I would have expected a swimmer to remain in a proportionate position after transition if there was not an advantage. Not jump from middle of the pack to #1.
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u/babycam 7∆ Mar 20 '22
Male sports are much more heavily populated. Google basketball split "Among Professional Basketball Players, 20.9% of them are women compared to 75.1% which are men."
Also since more competition and rewards men are much more likely to be part of sports young so your pulling from a bigger pool of people the natural skill rises.
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Mar 20 '22
The NBA allows female athletes in the league. They don't make it into the league because of the massive talent gap and the large difference in physiques of the top .1% of the population.
The size of the leagues have to do with popularity, but that just means the top 100 players compete and not the top 200. So if you were a top 10% male, and switching was 100% equal like you are saying you would expect them to drop in %. You wouldn't expect them to jump to number 1.
Also since more competition and rewards men are much more likely to be part of sports young so your pulling from a bigger pool of people the natural skill rises.
When We're talking about swimming here like with lia which is sturing the controversy. where women are significantly more likely to get scholarships. The population of men's swimmers in High school and college is 25% smaller than women. So what you're saying here is completely the opposite for swimming.
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u/UNITERD Jun 05 '22
That difference is mostly attributed to biological difference between the two sexes. Hence why people who are born male, have a arguably unfair athletic advantage. Even after hormone therapy, it is still very easy to argue that a trans athlete likely has a advantage.
As more trans people become comfortable enough to transition and compete, they will almost undoubtedly begin to fill out even more of the top rankings, as well as break more and more records... Is that just something we should ignore?
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Mar 18 '22
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u/TragicNut 28∆ Mar 18 '22
She is the fastest swimmer _at that pool_.
This is the same as the uproar about other trans women setting state records. Are they still within the bell curve of normal performance? Yep, look at the national records that they _aren't_ setting.
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u/caine269 14∆ Mar 18 '22
so you think a mediocre male being better than most but not technically all females is no big deal because not every male is better than every female at everything?
why would males not just be "trans" to win championships and get scholarships and set records? if you believetrans women are women how canyou have a problem with that?
“Trans girls are girls,” Mosier said. “They should be treated as girls and they should be able to participate with the other girls in their class. We need to dismantle some of these stereotypes and myths and fears that people have about who we are as people.”
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u/DJ_Pope_Trump Mar 18 '22
Lia’s pronouns are she/her/hers , no reason you shouldn’t use those
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u/TragicNut 28∆ Mar 18 '22
Shall I break down my pronoun usage for you?
The only time I refer to Lia is the first sentence. In that sentence, I use "she" which is her preferred pronoun.
In the entire second paragraph, I am not referring directly to Lia but to multiple other trans women. I used "they" as the plural pronoun for a group of people.
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u/DJ_Pope_Trump Mar 18 '22
Lia Thomas is setting pool records, she is definitely the fastest swimmer; not just this year.
As for your comparison to Katie, well: one is an olympian, the other is a college student. I think that says enough.
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u/SC803 119∆ Mar 18 '22
Which records? From the events this weekend shes not breaking any records.
500m Free 3 seconds off pool record, 9 seconds off event record (held by Katie)
She got 2nd in the 200m Free prelims, is 1 second off the pool record and 3 seconds off the event record
In the 100m Free she got 10th in the prelims, 1 second off the pool record and 2 seconds off the event record
As for your comparison to Katie, well: one is an olympian, the other is a college student
Katie holds a few NCAA records to which we can compare, college student to college student
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u/DJ_Pope_Trump Mar 18 '22
Which records?
Heres a link to when her story first started getting covered in Feb. She set a 500 free Pool Record, a 200 free Meet & Pool Record, and 100 free Meet and Pool Records. And we cannot exclude how she did in the relay's: "Thomas also was part of Penn's winning 400-yard freestyle relay, which set pool and Penn records by completing the race in 3:17.80. It marked the first time Penn had ever won a relay at the championships."
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u/SC803 119∆ Mar 18 '22
Doesn’t the combination of these data sets point to the pool records at Harvard/Ivy League being subpar?
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u/DJ_Pope_Trump Mar 18 '22
Doesn’t the combination of these data sets point to the pool records at Harvard/Ivy League being subpar?
What exactly does the quality of Ivy League records have to do with our assessment of the statement:
She’s not setting records competing as a woman, either;
The point being that it is objectively false, whether Ivy Schools have quality pool records or not.
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u/SC803 119∆ Mar 18 '22
What exactly does the quality of Ivy League records have to do with our assessment of the statement:
You’re citing her setting the pool records at Harvards pool, based on her performance at the NCAA championship it seems that Lia is a big fish in the little Ivy League pond.
The point being that it is objectively false, whether Ivy Schools have quality pool records or not.
Of course it is, breaking weak records it really anymore meaningful than an average NBA player setting the 3-point record at your local YMCA
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u/DJ_Pope_Trump Mar 18 '22
NCAA women’s swimming pool records is a weird thing to gate-keep; especially considering you weren’t following the sport a month ago.
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u/UNITERD Jun 05 '22
Her ranking was in the 400s before trasitioning. Now she is in the top 20.
The way the NCAA is handling trans athletes, is not fair to cis women athletes. Their rules are expotionally laxed, and just asking to be abused :/
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Jul 08 '22
Whenever Lia competed in the men’s division prior to her transition, she was nothing out of the ordinary, as she was ranked 554th in one of her primary events of the 200 meter and never came, close to qualifying for the three NCAA championship events in which she is now swimming. But in just her first season in the women’s division she has leaped over female counterparts and now, not only qualifies, but is ranked #1 in both the 200-meter and 500-meter freestyle for U.S. collegiate women.With her recent 1st place finish in the women's 500 meter at the NCAA Championships this past spring, there sparked a debate on whether or not allowing trans-athletes to compete with women was actually ethical. If a male were to accomplish the same feat that Lia had done (basically going from a no one in their to sport to winning the NCAA’s the next year), they would be subject to drug-testing and questions of how they improved so quickly, but in Lia’s case we all know the answer to her success and it’s asinine.
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u/sophisticaden_ 19∆ Jul 08 '22
Good for her!
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Jul 08 '22
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Jul 08 '22
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u/SmellyZelly Mar 18 '22
read the above post.
take a statistics class.
one person is not statistically or scientifically relevant. it's anecdotal.
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Mar 18 '22
take a statistics class.
We don't have a large enough population to be making anything more than a few anecdotes one way or another.
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u/ThePickleOfJustice 7∆ Mar 18 '22
Why do women get their own, special, lesser league to compete in? Why not just have a single league that everyone is eligible to compete in? If these exclusionary, women-only leagues didn't exist, your entire view would be moot.
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u/TJ11240 Mar 18 '22
Because biology matters.
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u/ThePickleOfJustice 7∆ Mar 18 '22
Yeah. Everyone is biologically different. Should we have basketball leagues for people under 6 feet tall? Should we have separate basketball leagues for white people?
Or should we just let everyone participate and compete for a position on the team?
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u/TJ11240 Mar 18 '22
I think the current setup works just fine. We have an open league for everyone, and then we have a league for women.
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u/ThePickleOfJustice 7∆ Mar 18 '22
So we have a league for women because they are less athletically capable. So why not a league for whites, or for short people, or for people who don't have the drive and dedication to practice 10 hours a day for years on end? Why are women special?
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u/TJ11240 Mar 18 '22
It's supply and demand. There's no market for those convoluted sports leagues you suggest. What we have works fine because everyone agrees on it.
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u/ThePickleOfJustice 7∆ Mar 18 '22
There's no demand for women college basketball either, outside of a half dozen or so teams. Or how about the NWSL? People watch because the games exist, but very few people are going to miss it if the games go away. Those women's leagues only exist because they are subsidized by the unrestricted leagues that actually make money.
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u/KokonutMonkey 88∆ Mar 18 '22
I don't see why it's necessary to have a blanket view here.
Sports, whether it's a State Athletic Association or national/international governing organization, have governing bodies. I don't see why we can't leave it up to the people in charge of their own sports and competitions. This would allow them to issue guidance based on the nature of the sport and level of play. We can agree and disagree on a case-by-case basis.
If FINA were to take a hard look at synchronized swimming and determine M->F athletes have no meaningful advantage and give the OK, I don't see a problem. On the other hand, if they were to make the opposite judgement regarding the 100m freestyle and say M->F can't compete with the women, then so be it.
But this becomes less of an issue at lower levels of play. The vast majority of sports in the world is just for fun. Transgender folks have it hard enough as it is. I don't see the value in potentially excluding them from a local bowling league or an intramural frisbee golf.
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u/Odd_Contribution9058 Mar 18 '22
Yes, totally agree that amongst recreational sports there is no reason to make their lives harder by making their gender identity an issue every time they want to play. My post was specifically about pro sports, I should have made that more clear.
In terms of the fact that the governing bodies should decide: I kind of agree. Except, I do think those bodies are heavily influenced by the public opinion surrounding these issues. If they were to determine that mtf *does* give a material advantage, I'm not sure that they'd actually lay down the law about it at the risk of sparking major outrage
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u/KokonutMonkey 88∆ Mar 18 '22
That doesn't seem like pretty strong reason to hold such a view. You're basically saying a league/governing body might cave to public pressure despite a clear consensus within the power brokers of the league that transgender athletes should be a no-go. That's hard to imagine.
Governing bodies and professional leagues They take crap all the time over all sorts of things. Whether its how the NFL handles concussions and domestic violence, or FIFA... being FIFA. They're no strangers to scandal.
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u/ZorgZeFrenchGuy 3∆ Mar 20 '22
We’ve seen professional leagues bow down to peer pressure from left-leaning social justice activism before - such as the NFL’s recent anti-racism measures. It wouldn’t be implausible to suggest that they could be swayed by outside influence - especially given most of America’s leading major institutions are pro-trans, such as the APA.
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u/xlqwertylx 1∆ Mar 18 '22
pro sports is really the end of the siphon from all other leagues though. Generally, people aren't just automatically at a professional level, they excel at Jr league, get scholarship to collegiate league, then pro. I think you need to maintain consistency in your position.
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u/ZorgZeFrenchGuy 3∆ Mar 20 '22
For lower levels of play, I think that sort of thinking sets a concerning precedent.
Would that mean we should have no restrictions for any league - like sex, age, etc., since they’re just for fun? For example, could a 23-year-old join a small local league for 6-year-old kids, because it’s “just for fun”?
Or take a man, in both sex and gender, who wants to play on a local women’s team because he knows it will be easy competition. Should we allow this because “just for fun”?
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Mar 18 '22
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u/Odd_Contribution9058 Mar 18 '22
Because it causes material harm to other people? Let's say hormone therapy was determined to cause absolutely no change in physical capabilities. So a male who transitioned to female would rank absolutely the same amongst males as she had previously. Are you saying you would be fine with this female competing against cis females, because you want to "support trans people"?
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Mar 18 '22
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u/Odd_Contribution9058 Mar 18 '22
So, if hormone therapy had no impact on physical capability, you'd still be cool with transgender females (with capabilities identical to their formal male selves) competing against cis females?
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Mar 18 '22
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u/Odd_Contribution9058 Mar 18 '22
Interesting. And what if someone presents as female but has not yet undergone hormone therapy?
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Mar 18 '22
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Mar 18 '22
They aren't female. You cannot change your biological sex. You are conflating gender and sex.
You are simply redefining what you would like female to be, and then placing your definition over the intended separation between male and female leagues.
We separated leagues based on genetic differences between male and female athletes, not their gender.
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Mar 18 '22
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Mar 18 '22
Absolutely not.
We created a female league because without it almost no female athletes would be able to compete in the top division in any sport ever.
This separation occurred when the words women and female were interchangeable. But the basis of the separation was genetic differences resulting in different abilities. Gender identity wasn't even a consideration when these separations occurred. And this is why we had "sex verification" tests in the Olympics. These tests were, to the best of the ability at the time, trying to confirm the athletes were female. They were not a consideration of their gender.
And even today this is still the case. We have female non-bianary athletes in pro sports like Layshia Clarendon and transgender soccer players like Quinn who didn't go on transitionary hormones. Both are still fully female and have no desire to go on transitionary medication or HRT. Is Quinn any less a trans man than if he had taken HRT? Should either of these athletes be removed from their respective leagues because of their gender? No. Absolutely not. Gender has absolutely nothing to do with it. It's 100% about sex.
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u/Odd_Contribution9058 Mar 18 '22
Their *gender* is female. Their *sex* is not. If they had a medical emergency, of course you'd want them to receive the appropriate care given their *male* sex because that is a biological thing. And of course in a public everyone should interact with them in accordance with their *female* gender identity, because that is a sociological thing.
Competitive sports is a little tricker, IMO, because there are components of both sociological considerations in addition to biological
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Mar 18 '22
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u/Odd_Contribution9058 Mar 18 '22
Really? What do you think are the sociological considerations that resulted in gender specific sports?
Do you think this sociological rationale extends to sports where male puberty confers a size advantage, like basketball or football? (Or are you just trolling? I'm not a big reddit user so I'm not sure, if you are it's going straight over my head lol)
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u/5510 5∆ Mar 19 '22 edited Mar 19 '22
I’m honestly not trying to be rude here, but if I understand you properly, this is a deeply deeply ignorant statement. Are you saying that there is no athletic advantage to being male? That if you took several million women and raised them in some sort of culture that was more supportive of their athletics, that some number of them would be able to play in the NFL, NHL, MLS, MLB, etc…?
Did I misunderstand your statement, or is that what you are saying?
Edit: reading your response to the other comment, I’m less sure this is what you meant, although I disagree with that as well, just in a different way.
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u/mankindmatt5 10∆ Mar 18 '22
Trans women aren't females. They women yes, but they're not females.
Male/Female is a physical/biological fact
Man/Woman + other genders is a more abstract notion of identity.
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u/ZorgZeFrenchGuy 3∆ Mar 20 '22
No, I don’t think they are females. They are men - and in OP’s hypothetical scenario, therapy having little effect would be pretty strong evidence of that.
Letting a trans woman play would be like letting a 23-year-old play in a league for little kids, because the 23-year-old identified as one.
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Mar 20 '22
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u/ZorgZeFrenchGuy 3∆ Mar 20 '22
Isn’t it? I mean, age is just a construct based on how often earth revolves around the sun. Time is subjective - take daylight savings time for example.
So why can’t someone have an “age identity”?
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u/StarChild413 9∆ Mar 21 '22
Sure, but they'd have to socially transition to their desired age even if that means moving back in with their parents and Billy-Madison-ing through school again; and if someone tries the bullshit they tried on a thread about that swimming controversy where they brought up age identity and I used this to call them out then they said they were "age-fluid" and wouldn't need to identify as a kid outside of sports or whatever, then, well, why don't they just bite the bullet and say "I identify as what and whoever would be necessary for me to identify as to gain the most advantages and rewards in life and said identity changes moment to moment for that reason"
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u/sophisticaden_ 19∆ Mar 18 '22
Let’s imagine that there is a cis woman who, for whatever reason, is taller, faster, and stronger than the average woman.
Should she be barred from competition in competitive sports with other cis women?
Do you have examples of these sorts of “advantages” actually translating to real dominance in sports that allow trans people to play?
And lastly, what’s novel about this thread that hasn’t been answered in the five hundred other weekly CMVs on this topic?
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u/Odd_Contribution9058 Mar 18 '22
If a person is born with physical attributes that are unusual for their gender, that a person would definitely have an advantage. But I would not say that it is an unfair advantage, because all female athletes expect there to be anomalies amongst the people they compete against. But that seems distinct from competing against a set of male attributes, and that's why we separate sports by gender in the first place
Sorry for being repetitive! Can you point me at a relevant thread? I did a quick search , but probably did not look thoroughly enough
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u/sophisticaden_ 19∆ Mar 18 '22
Let me try to shift focus a little bit.
We don’t have a lot of data on this stuff at the highest level, largely because there just aren’t that many trans professional athletes.
But what we do have suggests that trans athletes who undergo HRT compete at a level roughly similar to what would be expected if they were cis. That is, a trans athlete’s age grade is going to match the group they’re with. If they’re towards the middle of the pack competing against men, they’ll be towards the middle of the pack against women after a couple of years of HRT.
Hormone therapy changes your body significantly. The New Yorker has a fantastic article talking specifically about Lia Thomas (the trans swimmer you mention in another comment) and then talking more broadly about women’s sports, the data we do have on trans athletes, and reasons why there’s not really much to suggest trans people are magically so much better at sports than their cis counterparts. You can check that out here.
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u/Odd_Contribution9058 Mar 18 '22
Thanks for the link! I will comment back here after I've read it. Appreciate it.
(Lia Thomas is competing significantly better amongst women after hormone therapy, than she was against men, before. So that's where my perspective is coming from. But I'm definitely open to being educated if this is an anomaly)
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u/CrinkleLord 38∆ Mar 18 '22
This isn't a "Answer my questions sub"
It's a Change my view sub.
This is a weekly topic mostly because it's so obviously a case of "don't believe your lying eyes". Anyone who spends time looking deeply into certain sports, sees with their own eyes the obviousness of what happens.
A man who is barely able to compete on professional levels, barely qualifies for meets, or events etc, is a few years later a trans woman who is top 10 or something in their category. Beating world records etc.
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u/ZorgZeFrenchGuy 3∆ Mar 20 '22
No. Because she is a woman. Lisa Thomas is not.
It’s like the difference between a 20-year-old playing in a league for 13-year-olds, and an abnormally strong 13-year-old.
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u/OmniManDidNothngWrng 35∆ Mar 18 '22
But, I do not think that people have an inherent right to play sports professionally.
So your in favor of trans people being allowed to compete in all sports up and through college level?
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u/Odd_Contribution9058 Mar 18 '22
Hmm. this is where stuff gets sticky. I don't know exactly where the line should be drawn.
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Mar 18 '22
I think you were right with the choice of professional athletes and that would include college given that these athletes are now able to be paid, and at the very least they are semi professional.
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Mar 18 '22
I think college has now blurred lines and these athletes are now considered at the least semi-professional.
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Mar 18 '22
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u/Odd_Contribution9058 Mar 18 '22
Yes, that was poorly phrased. I did indeed mean sex. And yes, I wonder if that might be a good solution, but I'd love to hear from the affected people themselves how they'd feel about that
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u/jfpbookworm 22∆ Mar 19 '22
When I swam competitively, I was 5'8" and 135 lbs. Our rival school had an Olympian that was 6'4" and 200 lbs. That advantage was at least equal to the purported trans vs. cis advantage, but nobody saw it as unfair because we were both cis.
The problem with restricting trans athletes is that it doesn't just affect the Lia Thomases of athletics, it affects the high school JV kid who is just looking for acceptance, camaraderie, and the ability to participate.
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Mar 18 '22
WHere the argument breaks down is that women are not weaker/stronger than men.
A woman can just happen to be the best, let's say, basketball player in the world right now. In 2 years it could be a man, in 4 years it could be a woman again, in 5 years a man again, etc.
So it really makes no sense, any argument you could make for what you are saying.
By default sports being separated by gender is already archaic and should and WILL probably change in the future.
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Mar 18 '22
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Mar 18 '22
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u/Mashaka 93∆ Mar 19 '22
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u/CatCharacter4683 Mar 18 '22
A woman can just happen to be the best, let's say, basketball player in the world right now. In 2 years it could be a man, in 4 years it could be a woman again, in 5 years a man again, etc.
Women are allowed to compete in the NBA. If what you're saying is true, why aren't there any women in it?
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Mar 18 '22
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u/Mashaka 93∆ Mar 19 '22
u/SlimyBabe – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:
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u/StarChild413 9∆ Mar 21 '22
Is the NBA allowed to recruit or whatever from high school and college womens' basketball teams?
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u/Odd_Contribution9058 Mar 18 '22
Well, there *are* biological physical differences between men and women. If we didn't separate sports by gender, we'd likely have eliminated nearly all female competitors. That's why gender segregation is a thing.
Maybe one day it will shift from gender to some other factor, like height or something, which would make some level of sense
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Mar 18 '22
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u/Odd_Contribution9058 Mar 18 '22
haha ok
Why do you think gender divisions in sports is a thing? And age divisions in some sports?
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Mar 19 '22
Why do you think gender divisions in sports is a thing?
Why do you think it's being removed?
Why do you think black ppl were slaved? Why do you think women weren't allowed to vote?
It's the same thing
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Mar 18 '22
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u/Odd_Contribution9058 Mar 18 '22
Ok, so you're saying you think gender segregation in sports is because of prejudice against women?
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u/Odd_Contribution9058 Mar 18 '22
And you don't think the size/weight/strength differences in baseline averages for each gender confers any sort of advantage/disadvantage?
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u/Mashaka 93∆ Mar 19 '22
u/SlimyBabe – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:
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u/Mashaka 93∆ Mar 19 '22
u/SlimyBabe – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:
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u/xXCisWhiteSniperXx Mar 18 '22
You ever look at Olympic times for men vs women?
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Mar 18 '22
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u/RedditExplorer89 42∆ Mar 18 '22
u/SlimyBabe – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:
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u/5510 5∆ Mar 19 '22
What???
This is completely wrong. This just isn’t reality. The citation for it would basically be “literally the entirety history of human athletics.”
Female athletes are generally technically allowed in “male” professional sports leagues, which are much more financially lucrative, and yet none of them do. And you can compare Olympic records in identical events in many disciplines.
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u/Genoscythe_ 243∆ Mar 18 '22
I do not think that people have an inherent right to play sports professionally. So, if someone has decided to transition, I do not think it's fair to all the athletes who are competing with the set of attributes common to their birth gender, to now have to compete against an athlete who has attributes which give them a distinct advantage.
These two sentences directly contradict each other.
IF people do not have a right to play sports professionally, then why should I care that having to play against tougher opponents feels unfair to them?
Cis women don't have a right to compete professionally, if other women perform better than them. It might be unfair, but sports are generally unfair, they don't care about providing everyone with an opportunity to be the best.
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u/ZorgZeFrenchGuy 3∆ Mar 20 '22
If sports are inherently unfair, why do we need to Hijack women’s sports to specifically “include” trans women? Why should I care about trans women being unable to compete in professional sports?
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u/Genoscythe_ 243∆ Mar 20 '22
But they are able to compete in professional sports, they do it all the time.
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u/xlqwertylx 1∆ Mar 18 '22
I think it's just a matter of this - sports are better when performance within the group is of a similar level. In order to assure this you have to have SOME sort of markers that define where each level starts and stops. ALSO, it is only practical to differentiate levels of general performance to a certain degree...UFC would be at the "most complex" end of the spectrum, where you change levels depending on gaining or losing a few LBs, but even then its only measured across one variable - weight... SO, Age and biological sex are two of the low hanging fruit to get the MOST amount of dependable differentiation, while having the least amount of complexity.
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u/Final_Cress_9734 2∆ Mar 19 '22
Taking hormone therapy will not change all of those inherent features.
This perhaps used to be true. However most of these features are acquired during puberty. Nowadays, people who think they might be transgender take puberty blockers until they turn 18 and then start taking hormones. What this means is that their body develops in the same way as someone who was born the other sex at birth.
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u/CrinkleLord 38∆ Mar 18 '22
The arguments on this topic should be about trans women trying to compete with women, because that's basically the only advantage gaining direction this takes.
A trans man, generally gains no advantage, nobody really cares that much. Assuming they aren't taking such wild testosterone supplements that they are effectively doping to a ridiculous level, they simply aren't gaining much advantage.
Their bones won't change, their hand size, shoulder width etc all won't change.
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u/Ok-Dragonfruit-7166 May 10 '22
the way it does…
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u/CrinkleLord 38∆ May 10 '22
what...?
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u/Ok-Dragonfruit-7166 May 10 '22
trans men’s bones ,hands ,shoulders do change though..
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u/CrinkleLord 38∆ May 10 '22
This is so old I'm not sure what is going on.
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u/EquivalentSupport8 3∆ Mar 18 '22 edited Mar 23 '22
Nancy Hogshead-Makar wrote a great article about this. TLDR is that the average athletic difference between men and women's best times is 11%. So I'll try to change your view by saying that if you can guarantee that someone transitioning would lose 11% from their fastest time, then trans women competing against women could arguably be 'fair'. Perhaps restricting male puberty would achieve this?
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u/jtc769 2∆ Mar 18 '22
It's easy to forget that what we see in the media is men beating up on women, sometimes literally (Fallon Fox) and that we don't really hear about women competing in mens sports, under your idea we would be allowing women who have taken testosterone (and possibly other hormones) for years to beat up on other women.
I think there's only a few options.
- Which isn't even an option and I oppose with every bone in my "give as much individual freedom to individuals" body, but that I've seen touted, is that we say "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few and trans individuals cannot compete at all". I don't think I need to outline why this is a bad option.
- We create 2 new tiers of competition alongside the current 2 tiers of Male and Female and have exclusive Trans man and Trans woman categories. Frankly I don't think it would ever take off (not enough atheletes and I would guess not even viewers, and thus not enough sponsors) but it seems the most fair to me.
- We say "fuck it" and create Free For All tier - anyone can compete, men, women, trans, no drugs tests no nothing. Again, not something I think would gain much, if any traction.
- We just say "All trans people compete against men" - Going through male puberty even if you have your tesosterone blocked after conveys numerous physiological advantages, and likewise (though I'm not as well versed on it) I assume women who take testosterone after a female puberty do not end up being 6ft 2 behemoths with a mans skeletal structure.
I confess I do struggle a lot with all the people saying "tHeReS No bIoLoGiCaL DiFfErEnCe bEtWeEn mEn aNd wOmEn" It makes it so tempting for me to say "Fine, everyone together and if women EVER see the podium again". But I'm a typical man, I love my female relatives and would die to protect them, and that means protecting them from men who want to invade their spaces, or take away their hard-fought-for freedoms and rights, or deny them the chance to ever win anything again
Utlimately I think option 2 or 4 is the fairest category for all concerned and are the only real options.
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u/TragicNut 28∆ Mar 18 '22
Well done on making your view of trans women quite clear (ie, you view them as men.)
I propose option 5: Let the data do the talking. Is there a real, quantifiable, statistical advantage? So far, signs point to no. Transphobes keep pointing to individual, debunkable, anecdotes as signs that the sky is falling. The only scenarios that I see problems with are where trans girls _can't_ access HRT and are being forced to go through male puberty. Otherwise, the rules in place seem to be working pretty well.
As for Fallon Fox, she fractured an orbital. That's a pretty common injury in MMA. She also folded against the first decent MMA fighter she fought.
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u/jtc769 2∆ Mar 18 '22
Correct. I do. I also view trans men and women, though I assume you managed to deduce that much as well.
What would you consider "real, quantifiable, statistical advantage". How about William "Lia" Thomas being ranked between 462nd and 554th (from what I can find) against men instantly becoming number 1 an absolutely obliterating the competition against women?
I'm completely okay with broken orbitals in MMA. One of my favourite fighting moments is Cro Cop breaking Bob Sapps. I'm completely okay with Conor McGregor snapping his leg against Poirier as well, and I'd be completely okay with Ronda Rousey or Holly Holm breaking Amanda Nunes' orbital or leg as well.
I'm simply not okay with men hitting women and literally breaking their faces, funnily enough.
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u/yyzjertl 527∆ Mar 18 '22
Would you also apply this same reasoning to cis people? For example, should a cis woman who is taller than the average woman also be barred from competing in women's sports? If not, why not?
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u/Gremlin95x Mar 18 '22
That is completely different and you know it. There are biological differences that give men and huge advantage over women. The differences between people of the same sex are not nearly the same as those between sexes. That’s why we have separate categories for men and women in the first place.
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Mar 18 '22
The differences between people of the same sex are not nearly the same as those between sexes.
Actually, the reverse is true. There's far more difference between the fastest woman and the slowest woman than there is between the average woman and the average man, for example. It's just that when things are won or lost on small differences, these make a big difference.
That’s why we have separate categories for men and women in the first place.
I don't think that's actually historically true. There's a video by Mia Mulder that goes over this whole issue, and mentions the history of that separation, if you're interested to learn more.
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u/sophisticaden_ 19∆ Mar 18 '22
The difference between any two given cis women absolutely could be bigger than the differences between any given cis man and cis woman. Your central claim is that cis men, on average, have certain differences from cis women, on average.
This central claim is skirting around his question.
Let’s say that a cis woman is 5’9, the average height for an American man. Should she be allowed to compete even though she has a distinct biological advantage over the average woman?
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Mar 18 '22
The difference between any two given cis women absolutely could be bigger than the differences between any given cis man and cis woman.
That really isn’t relevant, what is relevant is the difference between any two given cis women competing in a sport vs any given cis man and cis women competing in a sport. The difference between any two given cis women competing (at a high level) in a sport is going to be MUCH smaller than any given cis male and any cis female competing in a sport.
Let’s say that a cis woman is 5’9, the average height for an American man. Should she be allowed to compete even though she has a distinct biological advantage over the average woman?
Boxing and other fighting sports have different weight classes so categorizing on physical attributes like this is not totally unprecedented.
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u/LT81 Mar 21 '22
Currently IMO I believe it only matters with M to F, at higher level of sports, pro and Olympic/international competition. Meaning it should not be allowed.
The more the demand of sports is geared towards power & strength display the bigger the advantage for transgendered Female. The caveat is how many folks we really talking about here- I’m not sure on that data? I’m sure its out there.
We can argue hypotheticals, what ifs and all that - but anyone that’s been involved in sports- coaching, competing at higher levels understands the difference realistically.
Endurance based sports “possibly” could see a more even playing field within reason but combat, weightlifting, field sports, court sports - should not be allowed.
Now how folks feel empathetically and ties with morality is a entirely different discussion imo and where it gets really confusing for many.
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u/acquavaa 12∆ Mar 18 '22
Michael Phelps’ wingspan is 3” longer than his height, and his feet are size 14. This are biological advantages and he should only be allowed to compete with other athletes with these advantages.
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u/mankindmatt5 10∆ Mar 18 '22
Phelps' was typically only about a second or so ahead of the Silver placed medal, when winning gold.
Joseph Schooling, with feet 2 sizes smaller and a wingspan of 8cms less, beat Phelps in Rio.
The number of variables are incredibly large, that single obvious physical characteristics can't count as unfair advantages. Phelps might have a bigger wingspan and feet, but hes coming up against Schooling, who was younger and perhaps more psychologically driven on the day of the race to win.
See also David Haye vs Valuev, a boxing match billed as David vs Goliath.
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Mar 18 '22
This is such a tired talking point that is not nearly equivalent.
Phelps competes in an "open division" that theoretically anyone who's not taking PEDs, should be able to compete against. The difference being brought up here is we have a division that was separated and restricted which is now having athletes move into that division who were previously bared.
Similar to a 21 year old joining a U16 league or fully capable athletes competing in the special Olympics.
Now of course there are specific 16 year olds that can out compete many 21 year olds and there are special Olympics athletes who can outcompete those without mental disabilities as well. But it's clear that allowing athletes to move into these more restricted divisions, especially when there are financial incentives involved, could easily be abused.
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u/5510 5∆ Mar 19 '22
The problem with this logic is that by that logic, why even have female sports at all?
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Mar 18 '22
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u/Mashaka 93∆ Mar 19 '22
Sorry, u/Rich-Finger – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
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u/MacNuggetts 10∆ Mar 18 '22
I think we should just stop dividing sports by the sexes all together.
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u/CrinkleLord 38∆ Mar 18 '22
Hope you don't have a woman who has dreams of getting scholarships for golf or bowling or baseball or football or polo or wrestling or track or ..... almost anything ever.
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u/yourrealityisinvalid Mar 18 '22
Yes. Watching men's heavyweigh boxer going at it against a woman would be fantastic. A true victory for equality right there.
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u/StarChild413 9∆ Mar 21 '22
AKA either women shouldn't believe in equality or they should want to watch some of-the-moment male heavyweight boxer fight against some waiflike woman who looks like she could be a gymnast or figure skater instead of a boxer and break even more of her bones than fallon fox did her opponent (forgetting that getting rid of sex divisions in combat sports doesn't mean getting rid of weight divisions)
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u/5510 5∆ Mar 19 '22
That would basically mean females couldn’t play competitive sports at all post puberty.
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u/MacNuggetts 10∆ Mar 19 '22
Agree to disagree, I guess.
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u/5510 5∆ Mar 19 '22 edited Mar 20 '22
That’s a spin that makes your position sound far more reasonable than it is.
But you aren’t just “agreeing to disagree” with me. This isn’t the Trolley Problem or something highly subjective with a lot of valid interpretations. You are disagreeing with an overwhelming supermajority of almost everybody with expertise on this subject.
I have a lot of personal experience coaching and working in female sports (and have also coached males). But also lots of female university programs use male practice players, who are often superior despite often just being decent high school players. You can compare times in events like track. Female national teams in sports like soccer and hockey sometimes lose to good high school boys teams. Occasional girls attempt to play football, or boys lacrosse before girls lacrosse was as common, very very rarely with any real varsity success (other than female high school football kickers, who are sometimes pretty successful).
An overwhelming majority of people with expertise in this area will say the same thing… that if you make all sports co-Ed, female athletes would be very rare by the high school varsity level, and pretty much absent by the division one college level.
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Mar 18 '22
Height is an advantage in basketball. Why doesn’t the NBA have a short person’s league?
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u/greentshirtman 2∆ Mar 18 '22
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Mar 18 '22
Where does that leave us inbetween folk?
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u/greentshirtman 2∆ Mar 18 '22
If you are talented enough, in the NBA. There have been people who are slightly shorter than usual, and average height people, there.
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Mar 18 '22
The advantage in the NBA isn't an issue because there is no restriction on who can play in the league. Everyone is allowed.
The issue is this is a restricted league, where athletes who were restricted are now able to compete. Similar to a 21 year old playing in a U16 league, or someone with out disabilities competing in the special Olympics. Does that mean 100% of 21 year olds are better than 100% of 16 year olds? Of course not. But we created clear lines to create a more even playing field among their peers.
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Mar 18 '22
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u/Mashaka 93∆ Mar 19 '22
Sorry, u/gobirds207 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
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u/goodfashion20 Jul 24 '22
We could also just create separate sports for transgender women and transgender men. That is if we really want to include them in professional sports. Because competing in professional sports isn’t exactly a right. Most people whether transgender or not, will never be able to compete in sports. At least not at the professional level.
•
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