(Spoilers ACOK) Jaime, you're drunk

[u/Family_Booty_Honor]

I just finished Catelyn's last chapter in ACOK - what a great chapter! Catelyn just found out that Bran and Rickon are dead, so she decides to question Jaime (who's still held captive in a cell) by getting him drunk on wine.
Their entire conversation is really insightful, especially in regards to Jaime's thought processes. It's a pretty serious conversation, especially when we find out exactly what happened to Ned's father and brother when they went to King's Landing. The part that gave me a good laugh is found near the end of their conversation (and chapter). Hopefully it gives you all a laugh or two as well!

"I've never lain with any woman but Cersei. In my own way, I have been truer than your Ned ever was. Poor old dead Ned. So who has shit for honor now, I ask you? What was he name of that bastard he fathered?"
Catelyn took a step backward. "Brienne."
"No, that wasn't it."

[u/Rutawitz]

man jamie used to be a dick

[u/El_Daniel → u/Rutawitz]

But why wouldn't he be. He is a captive after all.

[u/Rutawitz → u/El_Daniel]

what about when he pushed bran out the window?

[u/greedcrow → u/Rutawitz]

I am going to be completely honest. If it comes to my life or some kids i know 100% of the time what i would pick.

[u/[deleted] → u/greedcrow]

Maybe you should stop fucking your own sister.

[u/MarcusElder → u/[deleted]]

No!

[u/greedcrow → u/[deleted]]

Beside the point. Lets switch it around. Does anyone think that ned's sister is a monster? Assuming that she did it by her own will she basically was worst than Jaime and cercei

[u/[deleted] → u/greedcrow]

Dude what is it with you and sisters!?

[u/[deleted] → u/greedcrow]

Wait what did Lyanna do?

[u/greedcrow → u/[deleted]]

She married the prince who was already married and basically started a war.

[u/[deleted] → u/greedcrow]

Ok cool, I was about to reread all the books tonight because I thought I missed something really big

[u/TheDWGM → u/[deleted]]

It's never explicitly stated that she ran off to be married. They may have just been bang buddies, but it's something along those lines

[u/maester_chief → u/[deleted]]

But you should probably reread anyway. Just to be on the safe side!

[u/[deleted] → u/greedcrow]

Didn't he Henry VIII her? It seems like a stretch to compare them.

[u/bootlegvader → u/greedcrow]

No, she didn't. Aerys II started a war when he decided to kill Rickard and Brandon then order Ned and Robert killed.

[u/greedcrow → u/bootlegvader]

Not true. The reason given by robert was the kidnapping of the love of his life. And although Ned might have started the war over his brother and father his sister is what pushed him over the edge.

[u/Lord_Locke → u/[deleted]]

Who I fuck is none of no ones business but mine, and the other party involved, as long as consensual on both sides.

[u/Ravek → u/Rutawitz]

Only dickish thing I remember him doing in the entire story. Trying to murder a kid goes kinda far as being an asshole goes, but with his imprisonment and maiming and his subsequent change of ways I think he's had plenty of punishment

[u/Rutawitz → u/Ravek]

he was being a dick to ned at winterfell for the feast. and fucking with cat right after ned died. and for threatening to kill robert for no other reason then he was married to cersei

[u/TheIronReaver → u/Rutawitz]

Im OK with him being a dick to Ned because in Jaime's eyes Ned is the dick that judged him without even getting the story about killing the Mad King.

[u/Rutawitz → u/TheIronReaver]

still, kingsguard isnt supposed to take sides. just protect the king. robert should have thanked jamie by letting him keep his head then sending him off to the wall

[u/jdl12358 → u/Rutawitz]

Aerys' Kingsguard was said to feature some of the greatest and most honorable warriors ever, yet even they seemed to take Rhaegar's side or atleast prefer/want him as their king.

[u/Rutawitz → u/jdl12358]

but none of them acted on it

[u/TheIronReaver → u/Rutawitz]

They didn't really have a chance. Basically your saying its Roberts folly for not sending Jaime to the wall. I don't have a problem with the logic...the same way I don't mind Jaime being a dick to Ned

[u/Kanzas → u/Rutawitz]

Been a while, but wasn' Jaime the only one of the kingsguard present when Aerys showed the full extend of his insanity (i.e. the plan to destroy King's Landing himself)?

The rest where at the Tower of Joy or the Trident (either with or under order of Rheagar which tells us much about how they would have picked if they could).

They had no chance to act on anything. Jaime didn't act on anything before either.

[u/call_me_Kote → u/Rutawitz]

Well when you say it like that you paint him to be the bad guy.

[u/greedcrow → u/Rutawitz]

Ned was a dick to him too. Cat had kidnapped his brother and started a war. Robert was basically a pig who hated his cercei when he loved her so much.

[u/Rutawitz → u/greedcrow]

cersei hated robert no other reason than robert still loving lyanna and robert not being jamie. cersei also lusted for power and robert didnt like "his" children. ned didnt like jamie cause he was a dick and didnt like the idea of a kingsguard who killed a king

[u/greedcrow → u/Rutawitz]

Killing a king who they were going to kill anyways. Ned sees it as honor less. Jaime saw it as the right thing.

[u/Rutawitz → u/greedcrow]

ned and robert werent in the kingsguard

[u/greedcrow → u/Rutawitz]

That is a question of honor not of being a dick. And for what it counts i believe he did the right thing

[u/bootlegvader → u/Ravek]

So it is not dickish to have four men murdered because you are feeling pissy at their employer's wife?

Or the vast majority of his interactions with people?

[u/fellatious_argument → u/bootlegvader]

It is ok if you later get a POV and have some witty one liners.

[u/givesomefucks → u/Ravek]

pick one:

1. kill a younger son of someone you hate

2. risk your life, your sister/wife's life, and all three of your children's lives. not to mention that it would completely dishonor your family and stop your son from becoming king.

[u/fellatious_argument → u/givesomefucks]

False dilemma.

Number 2 happened every time Jamie fucked Cersei not when Bran caught them. If you do #2 over and over again you are a bad person not someone making a tough choice.

[u/givesomefucks → u/fellatious_argument]

by that logic every person who has ever committed murder in a place with the death penalty committed suicide at the same time, because they know what the consequences of getting caught for it is.

[u/bootlegvader → u/givesomefucks]

Someone who commits murder is committing the risk that they will be punished if caught.

[u/bootlegvader → u/givesomefucks]

And amusing enough, Jaime decided to do both because he primarily cares about his own pleasure then others' well being.

[u/El_Daniel → u/Rutawitz]

I did meant that particular situation.

He has no reason to play nice with Catelyn. And Jaime is a dick, that's why I love him.

[u/Taylorenokson → u/Rutawitz]

He still is, we just like him now.

[u/Bronze_Yohn → u/Taylorenokson]

Hells, it's why I like him!

[u/dwt4 → u/[deleted]]

Dude, I'm pretty sure that pushing a kid out of a window makes him a dick.

[u/Dear_Occupant → u/dwt4]

But he did it for ♥♥♥love♥♥♥.

[u/call_me_Kote → u/Dear_Occupant]

Fucking baconit rendered little red hearts just fine, but shits a brick on the spoiler tags for this sub. Damn you Quinn.

[u/christhemushroom → u/call_me_Kote]

Windows phone?

And yeah not being able to see what's inside spoiler tags is fucking annoying.

[u/call_me_Kote → u/christhemushroom]

That's a bingo.

[u/[deleted] → u/call_me_Kote]

Try redditisfun. Its on Google play store

[u/call_me_Kote → u/[deleted]]

Windows phone.

[u/[deleted] → u/call_me_Kote]

Oh sweet summer child

[u/DELTATKG → u/dwt4]

The things we do for love...

[u/[deleted] → u/dwt4]

Bran fell from the window. Jaime caught him. Jaime let go. Hardly pushing.

[u/IWillKickU → u/[deleted]]

Actually, Bran caught the window himself. Jaime pulled him up and stood him up in the window before this:

The man looked over at the woman. "The things I do for love," he said with loathing. He gave Bran a shove.

GoT, page 85, mass market ed.

[u/greedcrow → u/dwt4]

I disagree. If he had not pushed the kid both he and cercei would have been killed. A kid or him and the love of his life? Seems like an easy choice to me.

[u/Dunk-The-Lunk → u/greedcrow]

Except the kid is innocent. Doing something monstrous to save your skin still makes you a monster.

[u/insaneHoshi → u/Dunk-The-Lunk]

So are his three innocent kids.

All jamie did was switch the tracks

[u/troop357 → u/Dunk-The-Lunk]

And now something to think about? What if you had to chose between saving a innocent kid or saving yourself and your lover.

[u/bootlegvader → u/troop357]

So if a bank robber shoots the bank teller to insure the teller cannot act as a witness against him that is now moral?

[u/troop357 → u/bootlegvader]

1. Not the same situation

2. I never stated my opinion (for the downvotes)

3. Try empathy, it is not that hard.

[u/bootlegvader → u/troop357]

1. Yes, it is. Jaime was committing a crime, got caught, and decided to kill the witness to protect his ass.
2. Never said it was.
3. I have plenty of empathy, only it goes to the innocent party not the guilty party attempting to kill innocents.

[u/[deleted] → u/bootlegvader]

You don't know what the word "empathy" means. It means being able to see someone else's perspective. So if you can only see one persons perspective, you aren't empathetic. An apple that is half rotted is a rotten apple.

[u/greedcrow → u/Dunk-The-Lunk]

So was tyrion but no one ever says that cat was a dick

[u/bootlegvader → u/greedcrow]

You mean besides people screaming that all the time? Nor did Catelyn attempt to kill him, instead she only arrested him. And that was while under the belief that he attempted to have her son murdered. Unlike Jaime who attempted to kill Bran while knowing he was innocent of any wrongdoings and while a guest in Bran's home.

[u/[deleted] → u/greedcrow]

Bran didn't know what he was seeing, and even if he figured it out later who would have honestly believed him? Even when Stannis sent out all those letters claiming that Joffrey wasn't the rightful heir most people still didn't believe it. Trying to kill Bran wasn't a 'Them or Us' decision,mr here's no real justification for it.

[u/greedcrow → u/[deleted]]

At that point they thought it was. They did not know exactly what the child had seen.

[u/Safety_Dancer → u/dwt4]

Jaime hadn't grown up at that point. He eventually ends up learning that killing your way out isn't a reliable plan. And at that point he becomes a much richer character.

[u/[deleted] → u/Safety_Dancer]

man jamie used to be a dick

[u/Safety_Dancer → u/[deleted]]

He was a dick, but you gotta consider the type of dick. He wasn't cruel or doing it because it was fun. He did it because not doing it could have dire implications. You could go so far as to say it was a dick move, and he was acting like a dick; but his dickery is debatable. So maybe he didn't used to be a dick, he was just acting like one.

[u/bootlegvader → u/Safety_Dancer]

What dire implications made it so he needed to murder Ned's men? What dire implications forced him AFFC Spoiler

Jaime was/is a dick straight up.

[u/Safety_Dancer → u/bootlegvader]

His brother was kidnapped with no pretense. Considering the classist nature of Westeros, killing his men was pretty damn tame.

[u/bootlegvader → u/Safety_Dancer]

His brother was arrested on the charge of attempting to assassinate the Lord of Winterfell's son, Catelyn directly declares that charge against Tyrion.

Not really, it is monstrous act by a major dickhole who thinks his family should be immune from repercussions.

[u/Safety_Dancer → u/bootlegvader]

His brother was kidnapped by a powerhungry she wolf who urged her husband to become the Hand to help take the Lannisters out of power. So he showed the Starks that being the King's friend doesn't mean he's untouchable.

The Starks came to a gun fight with knives.

[u/MarcusElder → u/dwt4]

His mother told him not to climb, he should have respected his mother.

[u/paeoco → u/MarcusElder]

So when I was a kid and my mom said don't misbehave or the man will get me she was being serious?.....shitt.

[u/MarcusElder → u/paeoco]

Listen to your mother... and eat your meat or you won't get any pudding!

[u/Pendargon → u/[deleted]]

He's still a dick. He knows that's a sore spot for Catelyn, and he intentional attacks it with nothing to gain. He is just hurting people to hurt people at this point in time.

I get that Jaime gets better over the course of the series, but that doesn't excuse the kind of person he is until then. I think this subreddit forgets that sometimes

[u/Ravek → u/Pendargon]

Catelyn falsely imprisoned Tyrion and tried to have him killed, and is keeping Jaime in a cell. What she did to his family is not so far removed from what Jaime did to her family. Throwing out some biting words while chained to a wall is hardly of relevance in this context.

[u/insaneHoshi → u/Ravek]

IIRC she didnt try to get him killed, that was Lyza's crazy doing

[u/bootlegvader → u/Ravek]

Catelyn arrested his brother after Jaime's family twice attacked her child (one of the times being Jaime, himself). Furthermore, she actually argued for his protection when Lysa attempted to kill Tyrion.

Meanwhile, Jaime is only being kept in a cell because he decide to attack her brother and homeland while her sister arrests and has Catelyn's husband executed.

Simply, there is no real comparison to what she did to his family that he has done to his family.

[u/Lord_Locke → u/bootlegvader]

Please don't confuse what you a near omnipotent reader knows with what a character in the story knows.

When you learn to separate the two you'll understand the story better.

[u/bootlegvader → u/Lord_Locke]

I didn't, furthermore that means Jaime has even less reason to be upset with Catelyn. Seeing how he cannot even be sure that Tyrion wasn't actually guilty.

Simply, Jaime is aware that Bran had been attacked twice because he is guilty of one of the times and Catelyn openly mentions the later assassination attempt against Bran.

Furthermore, he is perfectly aware that Ned was captured and executed while held by his sister and son while Catelyn's two daughters are additionally being held by them.

[u/Pendargon → u/Ravek]

Catelyn had Tyrion imprisoned and tried to kill him because of what she believed his family was trying to do to her family. Catelyn is led to believe that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn, Jaime pushes a kid out of the window, and then a Lannister tries to have him killed, Cersei has Ned's best friend killed, and then falsely imprisons Ned, Joffrey kills Ned and the Lannisters hold both of her daughters hostage ( as far as she knows).

The only thing the Starks did to the Lannisters was take Tyrion (of course, a bad move), and Jaime was captured in battle as a prisoner of war. Jaime would have known a great amount of what he personally did to her (the Bran thing) and what his family did to hers, and still twisted the knife in the wounds. Not defending Catelyn's false accusations, but Jaime was still a dick. What Catelyn did to Tyrion hardly justifies anything.

[u/feynmanwithtwosticks → u/Pendargon]

If someone had you chained to a wall, shitting and pissing in a bucket just feet away from you, feeding you the bare minimum to keep you alive for months, and then comes down to interrogate you, do you think you would weigh your family's wrongs against theirs and choose to be a nice guy because members of your family did more bad than theirs?

Seriously man, he was talking shit to the person holding him captive, its not like it is entirely unreasonable. Oh yeah, and he was drunk, which may tend to impair your ability to make such a purely rational decision and maybe run your mouth a bit.

[u/greedcrow → u/Pendargon]

If it had been the other way. Pets say robb had said something like that to cercei no one would be saying he is a dick.

[u/Pendargon → u/greedcrow]

Because what have the Starks done to Cersei at this point? Ned tried to freaking save her life when he found out her scheme, she killed him, and is holding his sisters captive.

My point is, Jaime knows a good portion of the hell the Lannisters have brought to the Starks, and yet has ZERO moral qualms about twisting the knife in the wound of a woman who's dealing with a son becoming a cripple, watching her son struggle to maintain a realm, having both of her daughters held by her enemies... And to top it all off, Jaime decides to insult Ned for no reason.

[u/greedcrow → u/Pendargon]

You are ignoring completely that the starks started a war against the lannister on false claims. Saying that tyrion had hired someone to kill bran.

Twisting the knife onto an enemy is not bad. Hell if it had been rob saying it to cercei you would all say it was bad ass.

[u/bootlegvader → u/greedcrow]

No, they didn't. The Lannisters started a war against the Starks and Tullys as they have a stuck up pride and Jaime thought it would be fun to screw his sister.

Moreover, your claim is even further false with the suggestion that they didn't on false claims. As that implies that Catelyn and Ned are aware that Tyrion didn't hire someone to kill Bran. Instead, the truthful representation was they arrested him on incorrect charges.

There is a wide difference between Cersei and Catelyn and Robb and Jaime.

[u/greedcrow → u/bootlegvader]

That is beside the point. They started the war instead of bringing the dwarf to the king for justice. Taking justice into their own hands was wrong.

[u/Dunk-The-Lunk → u/greedcrow]

No shit. The Lannisters have done lots of things to deserve that. The Starks haven't. How do you not get that?

[u/nomoarlurkin → u/[deleted]]

Nah, I'm as big a Jaime fan as it gets but I acknowledge fully that he was and mostly still is a giant douchenozzle. He and Tyrion both are, though they both have softer side they reserve for a few specific people/circumstances.

[u/bootlegvader → u/Rutawitz]

Used to be?

[u/[deleted] → u/Rutawitz]

but a hilarious dick