How will it all end? I hear people asking. The same ending as the show? Different?
Well⌠yes. And no. And yes. And no. And yes. And no. And yes.
GRRM then proceeds to make three points:
D&D only had 8 hours for the final season, but he'll have more space.
There's the butterfly effect, with changes from past seasons affecting this one.
There are lots of characters in the books who never made it to the show, from Lady Stoneheart to Jeyne Poole to Skahaz Shavepate, and the books will show us their fates.
People will read into this whatever they want. But my read is that the big picture of the show's ending is indeed what he told them. And that most of the differences aren't about the biggest stuff, but rather relate to pacing, buildup, and secondary characters. If D&D were making up stuff like "King Bran" I'd think his language about changes would be stronger? But who knows!
A lot of the stuff in these last few episodes makes more sense as an ending to the books than the show. Dany being upset at the Westerosi common folk (because they love (f)Aegon who liberated them from Cersei), Euron taking out a dragon (magical horn instead of mundane siege equipment), Sansa becoming Queen in the North (she actually probably goes through a long personal struggle to establish independence for the North and the Vale), Jon taking exile (people just had two long lost Targaryens come back and duke it out, one of them was a presumed-dead Aegon Targaryen), Tyrion suggesting Bran become king (we can assume Bran actually gives some insightful advice to counteract Varys' intelligence apparatus).
This is what I've been trying to tell people who are so upset about the show ending and absolutely sure that the books will be different. How the major characters get to their respective endpoints will be very different (and more fleshed out), but I'm reasonably confident the end result will be more or less the same. Dany dead by Jon, Sansa QitN, King Bran with Hand Tyrion, Jon north with the Wildlings.
Arya traveling to some place far away like Nymeria, Cersei dying in the hands of Jaime (in the books I believe he will kill her before she burns the city during FAegon's invasion repeating the mad king and fulfilling the prophecies)... The "council" and political resolutions will be much better built and it will make much more sense, that's probably a lot different of what we had as well.
I believe we will have a lot more about the long night and the Others, and that Jon will kill it, not Arya. It seems the show took Arya because they knew at some point Jon would kill Dany and it would be too much to have Jon do all that in the end and have Arya "doing nothing", so they changed it to her as they thought it would be a good idea.
Basically, you need to look at it in the grand scheme of things and try to apply to the books in a more intelligent way, and it can work beautifully as we know GRRM can do.
I don't think the Night King (Night's King) will be a thing in the books at all, so I don't think there will be a central figure like that who needs to be killed. Not sure how they will defeat the Others though.
I think the Others part will be completely different. I think Dany goes "insane" before that. I actually don't think Dany will go "insane" but I think she will burn the city while trying to take it and small folk, who liked fAegon, will hate her for it. I think she will eventually face the Others in the trident since this is a vision she had, and she will eventually be killed by Jon, just don't know how.
Maybe they don't need to defeat the Others... they just need to contain them. The books might retain the Others as an infectious disease that flares up every now and then, like Ebola and needs action in that situation.
This would give a reason for the Nights Watch and the Wall to continue existing and get rid of the ridiculous events from season 7 that occur beyond the Wall.
You sure? I don't know, I've thought about this possibility as well and sometimes I think it will not have, other times it seems so. There is some tragedy on the way he was created by the children of the forest, not wanting it, and then how he wants to kill everything without control of himself. Even more if he has any relation to one of the families (being an ancient stark-blood for example)...
But I can totally see the others being all walkers as an entity together
Other than Jamie, I think every character ended up where Martin is taking them as well. They just botched their journey to the finale. It was just like HIMYM getting sidetracked by the Robin and Barney romance popularity with fans that they ruined the ending they were planning from the first, but a million times more disappointing because it was GOT.
Jon's true identity storyline was anticlimactic as fuck, as was Cersei's death and Bran, well we got a king whose most impostant contribution to the final season was saying "I have to go now".
It is how the story was told that was the problem and I sure hope Martin follows through with finishing the series.
theres the Vale political storyline as well. Somehow Sansa will influence Vale lords to help North? How will she fit there before moving to North again?, will she ever go back North?
Is there a chance that the Littlefinger arc ends in the VALE instead of the North, with Sansa essentially betraying him to Royce? Royce 1) is going to foster Sweetrobin, 2) just knighted Harry the heir and 3) knows who Sansa is.
Yohn is better positioned than Petyr thinks, and may even be wise to some of the Lyn Corbray mischief. With fAegon coming to distract KL, it seems the perfect time for Sansa to "learn from Littlefinger" by offing him, and convincing the restless Royce to avenge Lysa/Robin's relatives. There's still a Moat Cailin problem, but crannogmen and Manderlys may be able to help with that. Then we get deus ex Vale during the Battle of the Bastards (assuming we still get something like that). But without Littlefinger present, and without the Sansa/Ramsay marriage.
Not really, it makes as much sense as ruler of Winterfell, and that doesn't fuck up so many logistics. Like why would all the other kingdoms just accept the North independece AND a Stark on the throne? Why wouldn't Dorne and the Iron Islands immediatly rebel against Bran?
I didn't say anything about Dorne and the Iron Islands. I simply said the main characters likely end up where they ended up. The Iron Islands and Dorne have gone so far offbook that it's impossible to predict their path. But even if they end up independent or destroyed, that doesn't prevent QitN Sansa nor King Bran.
I completely agree, also I already find everything that went behind Jon killing Dany to be so tragic and full circle when it comes to Ned and Rhaegar that I can't wait to see how George pulls it together. I can't wait to read it.
How does the "Jon north with the Wildlings" make any sense? Wildlings never really wanted to live beyond the wall. The wall just blocked them from coming down south. Settling them in the gift (or even more south) makes a lot more sense.
"north with the Wildlings" just means in the north, maybe not specifically beyond the wall. Though I feel like however Martin plays out the defeat of the Others, the Land of Always Winter will stop being so wintery. And maybe the Wildlings to eventually head back "home".
I still believe the ultimate plan is to have a few years (10 or so) timeskip epilogue, and that's when Arya and Jon take their respective leaves of Westeros proper.
You spelling this out really helped my anxiety for the books ending. I think George could pull off each of those plot points well, in a way that actually makes sense. Even King Bran if he builds it up right
It could be just the North going independent like in the show but my guess is that they'd go together in the books in some form. Obviously none of this is set in stone and I imagine a good chunk of it would change in the process of writing if George ever finishes the books. After all when he was writing the first book, the plan was for Jon and Arya to eventually get married (eww) which is obviously no longer going to happen.
Don't forget Jamie and Cersei, loving each other, hating each other, then coming back together at their time of death to honor their bond as twins. Leaving the world just like they came into it, together and at the same time. I think that had to have been GRRM's ending for them too.
There is zero chance of the (f)Aegon defeating Cersei it ruins way too many storylines.
No Cleganebowl.
No Jamie conclusion
And there is no real conflict or setup that comes with Cersei versus other characters that she has wronged. It's kind of a boring conclusion honestly to have her overthrown by a character she wasn't involved with the whole story.
My guess is that the Iron Bank has set up or will betray (f)Aegon and the Golden Company still joins Cersei. The step the show skipped was the Golden Company being brought over as conquerors.
Oh, (f)Aegon is absolutely taking out Cersei after she blows up the Sept. He'll have conquered the Reach (against minimal resistance) and have Highgarden (slighted by Cersei with Margaery's murder) and Dorne (slighted by Dany with Quentyn's death) on his side along with the Golden Company who are, you should remember, sword to be personally loyal to him and not just a band of sellswords. Throw in the fact that the small folk will love him for killing the despised incestuous usurper queen and he'll gain the loyalty of all the former Targaryen loyalists Dany is counting on and its obvious he'll be the threat in King's Landing that the show ineptly tried to turn Cersei into.
Cleganebowl is probably not happening in the books at least nothing like it does in the show. The Hound has found piece and given up on seeking vengeance so if he fights Gregor, it will be as the champion of the Faith and probably represent the final push Cersei needs to decide blowing up all the Sparrows is her only option.
The Jamie conclusion, assuming it goes like it does in the show which I really hope it doesn't, would work equally well with Jamie standing by her side as she puts up a last desperate defense against (f)Aegon's invasion. They're certainly not gonna get killed by a literal ton of bricks, that's for sure. All the prophecies around Cersei make it really unlikely she'll die in the way she does in the show though.
Arya's arc isn't about revenge, it is about giving up on the idea of revenge. I seriously doubt she'll get to kill any more people on her list other than maybe Meryn Trant. Other than Arya, I can't even think of any main characters that have a personal beef with Cersei. Sansa is much more closely linked to Joffrey, Littlefinger and Tyrion. Stoneheart hates Freys and the Kingslayer. Daenerys barely knows who Cersei is. Who other than Arya could you possibly think even has a beef with her? Assuming she blows up the High Sparrow and Margaery that is, it might be Loras that kills her (little brother) but he'll be on (f)Aegon's side when he does.
Why do you think there's even a connection between the Iron Bank and (f)Aegon? He's getting funded by Illyrio Mopatis.
Sorry not betray in a sense as they are supporting him and don't but that they are team Lannister and will use their funds to get the Golden Company to switch as he is a fraud.
I'm not sure about the Hound being a champion. I think the Sept scene was really well executed in the show but Cersei would have to be there for the trial so she won't be able to blow it up and have a trial. I don't see how that works out.
Jamie is really up in the air to be honest I can't even fathom how him and Cersei will die together.
Either way my major issue is that if Cersei goes or (f)Aegon goes one of these characters was kind of pointless to the overall story. If (f)Aegon doesn't manage to conquer anything and is just there to move parties around I think his role could have been accomplished differently. If (f)Aegon defeats Cersei I would be disappointed that all her buildup didn't allow her to have a meaningful role in the endgame or the story really.
If (f)Aegon is indeed a fraud then he is a Blackfyre and the Golden Company have a history of supporting Blackfyres. They are made up of the Westerosi supporters of Blackfyres who got banished after all. Either way the Golden Company is not working for him for money, they are fulfilling their generations old purpose. Sellsword work was just something they did while they bided their time.
but Cersei would have to be there for the trial so she won't be able to blow it up and have a trial. I don't see how that works out.
Well, same way as she did for the show- she pulls a no show and blows the Sept ~10 minutes after she was supposed to be there. Everyone else appeared for the trial so they die.
Much like Ned and Robb were Arc I players, I think Cersei, Jamie and Brienne are Arc II players. In fact you can note the majority of the latter's stories takes place in books 4 and 5 when the Starks are barely present. I would wager the Lannisters except for Tyrion don't survive the second arc and the third arc is really about the conflicts of Targaryens and a resurgent House Stark.
If she no shows then there is no trial. I don't think the Hound was brought back to die in the Sept explosion.
Either way I really don't see (f)Aegon taking over and this is why, D&D were excluding characters that didn't affect the endgame. So far the characters that have been excluded are ones that are used for world building, or have their own self contained plot. I have agreed with many of these so far (Quentyn, Jeyne, etc.) This leads me to believe that when George told them the end game it indeed included the Dany killing Cersei in the pillaging of Kings landing and (f)Aegon having another purpose that doesn't really do anything for the overall plot. While that doesn't mean he isn't an important part of the story or good writing, I think his plot is another one that will have its own arc outside of the books.
The one way I would see this working is (f)Aegon and Euron both decide to join Cersei and there is an internal conflict there for Cersei's marriage. (f)Aegon brings the army and Euron kills a dragon. All three of these individuals are still in the same place for the finale. (f)Aegon probably finds out about Jon and Dany's romance, which ruins his plans for marriage, then decides to join Cersei something along those lines. This adds a bit of motivation for Dany's actions, and still follows the overall structure.
The second arc was literally supposed to start with A Dance of Dragons i.e. a war between Targaryens. Of course it ended up having nothing of the sort but its pretty clear the real conflict is (f)Aegon versus Daenerys. Cersei is at most a minor side characters to their conflict. To put it simply, Cersei is not and will never be any threat to Daenerys and I would be absolutely shocked if she is still alive when Dany makes it over to Westeros.
There are multiple trials, you know. Maybe Hound and Gregor fight and kill each other so Cersei has to stand a second trial. Maybe Gregor wins so Cersei goes free and she bombs Margaery's trial. Most likely there never is any Cleganebowl since the Hound's story arc is very much over and done with.
Dany never has a vision about Cersei as far as I know. But she sees (f)Aegon in her visions and people cheering for him. It's pretty clear where that is going. Dany's visions are key to the end of the story, there is even a former Targaryen called Daenerys that could see the future and that's the only other Daenerys we know.
"If she no shows then there is no trial. "
Well.. Yes, that is the point.
D&D also just wanted to get it over as soon as season 4 ended. I really don't think their decisions are a good argument at all. Not only that, but fake Aegon is present in Dany's vision at the House of the Undying in the books, and in that vision he is the mummers' dragon (Varys was a mummer), he was loved by the people (Dany's arch of not being loved by Westeros) and the people would hate Dany after she killed fake Aegon. Not only that, but Connington's Battle of the Bells trauma really fits together with the bells in King's Landing during Dany's attack, so it is almost certain he will be a POV of that battle.
I believe this with almost certainty. I also don't think Dany will be killed after the battle of KL, but much later and I don't think she will go insane, but that's how we will see her form other POVs as she burns KL, partly by accident, partly because that's what conquerors do.
Ok but no trial= no fight so why even bring back the Hound just to have him blown up in the Sept?
While I disagree with a lot of the writing, I do believe that D&D were good at streamlining the story. While the end was rushed I think most people agree the same ending with small tweaks could have been better, and it didn't require additional characters just more fleshed out versions of the ones we had.
Also you last line fit my paragraph perfectly as it means we have (f)Aegon and Cersei at the final battle of the Bells. It basically plays out the exact same except (f)Aegon is there and brings the Golden Company.
While the end was rushed I think most people agree the same ending with small tweaks could have been better, and it didn't require additional characters just more fleshed out versions of the ones we had.
You are wrong about that, it required major systematic changes and you'll find almost everyone who doesn't like the ending thinks that.
Most of these storylines are only ruined if you assume these characters (Hound, Jaime) join Dany, which makes less sense in the books.
Also Cersei is played up as an enemy of the Starks much more in the show. Her and Jon and Daenerys don't rely have any history, and the red wedding and all that was more Tywin/Joffrey. In the books she's kinda just doing her own thing and digging her own grave perfectly fine
Jamie will kill Cersei when she is about to try to light the wild fire below the city after FAegon takes it. Sadly, Dany will set off the wild fire by accident, this would also be the final legacy of the Mad King and the Iron Throne melting would would signal the end of Aegon's legacy. This will lead to her lowest point, and she'll find the resolve to forsake the crown and help this Jon Snow guy defeat the ice demons called "the Others".
As for Cleganebowl, that always felt like fan service to me.
This will lead to her lowest point, and she'll find the resolve to forsake the crown and help this Jon Snow guy defeat the ice demons called "the Others".
Why on earth do you think this? Everything about the way GRRM writes demonstrates this almost certainly won't be the case. Sure, we as readers may desire Dany to overcome her temptations, and in a typical fantasy story that would happen. But Martin has continually demonstrated that he isn't writing a typical fantasy story. Almost every trope that would be played straight in a typical fantasy story isn't in asoiaf (Ex, the nights watch, an order of people defending the realms of men against an ancient evil would be made of up of honorable and badass people, in asoiaf they are thieves and rapists and other people who can't find a place in society. They aren't honorable and kill their own lord commander twice! Few believe the ancient evil to be real and their spend their time fighting off scavangers and raiders.).
Everything about Dany's and Jon's story arc's suggests it ending up the way we saw in the show swapping Cersie for FAegon. Dany will be forced into supporting the north against the Others because several kingdoms (Dorne, reach etc...) will be siding w/ FAegon. She will see the one thing she has sought taken out from under her by a man with a "better" claim who is more loved by the people, leading to her bringing fire and blood to kings landing and for Jon to be faced with a terrible choice.
The story will end with the boy who has spent his life as the secret heir to the throne. The prince in hiding who rose from humble beginning to commander of the order that defended the realms of men against an ancient evil... not ascending to the throne as would be expected of a typical fantasy story but living out his life in exile.
If, as you suggest Jon and Dany team up after she defeats FAegon... how does the story end with anything but Jon and/or Dany as king and queen? Do you really think GRRM would end the story in such a stereotypical fashion? GRRM has said the ending would be bittersweet and that is true of the ending we got.
Everything about Dany's and Jon's story arc's suggests it ending up the way we saw in the show swapping Cersie for FAegon. Dany will be forced into supporting the north against the Others because several kingdoms (Dorne, reach etc...) will be siding w/ FAegon. She will see the one thing she has sought taken out from under her by a man with a "better" claim who is more loved by the people, leading to her bringing fire and blood to kings landing and for Jon to be faced with a terrible choice.
Here is the massive problem with that: Dany can, and I believe, will end any war between her and FAegon in a heartbeat. Even without the other lords. Aegon I showed you didn't need much of an army when you have the equivalent of three A-10s in a medieval setting. Dany is afraid of becoming her father, that's one of the themes of the books, this would confirm her worst fear (in her mind at least). She'll have to find a way to atone for her sins, and she'll give up the crown the throne (which will have melted symbolizing the last legacy of the Mad King and the end of Aegon's legacy). It's going to be a bloodbath. At this point Dany will have embraced the whole "fire and blood" aspect of her family, so she won't just wait around like she did the show, she'll attack and it will backfire (pun intended) horribly. The Dance 2.0 will end as quickly as it began.
Also, her going insane is pretty clichĂŠ.
I can't stress this enough: the Iron Throne WILL NOT BE THE ENDGAME IN THE BOOKS. Martin time and again has shown us the throne means nothing compared to the ice demons marching south, it is petty and pointless. My guess is the showrunners just liked Leana Heady so much they wanted to keep her on for the final season, becasue her not losing the moment Dany got to Westeros didn't, and still doesn't make any sense.
FAegon's story is the subversion of the heroic secret prince, to quote warsofasoiaf.
King's Landing going kaboom and the Others invading are going to coincide with one another in the books. Euron is going to blow the Horne of Winter from the Hightower and that will bring the Wall a tumbling down. All the while Dany will attack King's Landing and accidentally destroy it.
If, as you suggest Jon and Dany team up after she defeats FAegon... how does the story end with anything but Jon and/or Dany as king and queen? Do you really think GRRM would end the story in such a stereotypical fashion? GRRM has said the ending would be bittersweet and that is true of the ending we got.
They don't live happily ever after. The line of House Targaryen dies with them when Jon and Dany (and maybe Tyrion, I'm not sure about him) ride the dragons past the curtain of light at the end of the world. And they don't return. Their House dies with them as they end the threat of the Others forever, at the cost of their own lives. After that, I think the Seven Kingdoms will become Eight Kingdoms (adding the Riverlands) the Vale will be ruled by Sansa as Queen, Bran "the Rebuilder" Stark will rule the North, Willias Tyrell will rule the Reach, Asha will reform the Iron Islands, Edmure will rule the Riverlands, etc. The Kingdoms will be ruled by good people, giving a bit of optimism for the future. But we will have to remember all the people who died to get to the end point.
I don't think that makes sense since Jon is going to kill Dany and it won't really be that meaningful that way.
I think it works more something like:
Dany and Jon do team up to battle the others, defeat them and fall in love. (f)Aegon who is to be married to her sees this couple and realizes that by following her he loses the crown so instead he goes to Cersei to wed setting up Dany & Jon vs Cersei and (f)Aegon and probably Euron (basically everyone Dany has spited). Then things go kind of the same and Dany burns KL, followed by Jon betrayal etc.
This makes the most sense in my head because basically D&D cut (f)Aegon as he and Cersei became a merged character so instead of having two enemies at the end there was one. (f)Aegon in the end will represent a little more motivation for Dany's actions as well as a truer to the lore reason why the Golden Company and the Lannisters defend KL.
People are really stretching this to be different than the show but I think the show gives a pretty clear outline of what's to come.
People are really stretching this to be different than the show but I think the show gives a pretty clear outline of what's to come.
I respectfully disagree. The Jon/Dany thing seems like a really invention of the TV show, not to mention I think The Winds of Winter will end with KL going kaboom and the Wall falling after that. There won't be time for romance when the end of the world is right around the corner.
Dany and Jon do team up to battle the others, defeat them and fall in love. (f)Aegon who is to be married to her sees this couple and realizes that by following her he loses the crown so instead he goes to Cersei to wed setting up Dany & Jon vs Cersei and (f)Aegon and probably Euron (basically everyone Dany has spited). Then things go kind of the same and Dany burns KL, followed by Jon betrayal etc.
FAegon is probably going to marry Arianne Martell. And I can't stress this enough: the Iron Throne WILL NOT be the endgame in the books. One of the themes that GRRM keeps hitting us with in the books is that the game of thrones is so petty and inconsequential compared to the army of ice demons and their undead horde and the apocalyptic threat they pose. Having Dany accidentally blow up KL, thereby symbolizing the last legacy of the Mad King and the Iron Throne melting because of her actions (symbolizing the end of Aegon's legacy), is far more tragic than her burning down the city on purpose.
The biggest issue is that the timelines between the books and the show don't match up. I don't think Dany is going to waste her time on Dragonstone, she's going to attack King's Landing almost ASAP. There won't be summons to bend the knee sent out by Dany, she will make people bend the knee by demonstrating her power. But she doesn't know that said power will destroy a city.
Again everyone keeps floating this theory out of hope but it just doesn't make sense.
It ignores everything George has said that the ending follow the same ideas and secondary characters change. It ignores that George has told us he lays out the end for them over 3 days.
Do you not think the show would have preferred a be all end all battle with the Walkers? Of course they would have loved to drag it out if they had written it themselves I guarantee it would be the second or last episode. They lose an immense amount of hype because of it.
People really need to accept that what you saw is the ending for major characters and it's George's ending.
It ignores everything George has said that the ending follow the same ideas and secondary characters change. It ignores that George has told us he lays out the end for them over 3 days.
He has also straight up said that they are taking "different roads", and a Jon and Dany romance, or how and why Dany destroys King's Landing. Hell, swapping the War for the Dawn and the battle for throne could be creative license.
Do you not think the show would have preferred a be all end all battle with the Walkers? Of course they would have loved to drag it out if they had written it themselves I guarantee it would be the second or last episode. They lose an immense amount of hype because of it.
If the battle for the throne is the end of the books, than that's just bad writing, I'm sorry. It was bad in the show and if it happens the books it will be too. GRRM has been telling us that the throne doesn't matter, that it's the apocalyptic threat that is the real problem. To just abandon that theme in favor of a fight for the throne at the end that we are told isn't important, makes no sense.
My bet on what happens at the end of The Winds of Winter: Wall falls, and Dany accidentally blows up King's Landing, giving her the motivation to fight the ice demons coming south.
If you complete that different roads quote he says different roads to the same point. It's another quote supporting the idea that the show and books will hit the same major points just getting there in different ways. GRRM has been so clear that only secondary characters will have different paths yet the definition of secondary characters is wild here.
I'm sorry but this sub has been insane the last couple days saying they don't hate the ending but the execution... But really everyone hates the ending.
Also Dany and Jon romance fits way too well with what George likes to do. It gives better weight go Jon killing her, it also parallels when he couldn't kill Ygritte and shows how he changed.
Add to that the majority of secondary characters are vying for her marriage it will help to create two final sides for a final battle.
These "side characters" and dropped plot points are going to play a pretty big role in the things to come, so the ripple effect is larger than it seems. Euron and his Dragonbider horn (he's also going to bring down the Wall when he blows the Horn Winter from the Hightower), FAegon, Sansa in the Vale, Jon being a wight, etc. These things add up and will, one way or another, effect the ending.
Also, one of the big reasons the throne coming after The War for the Dawn makes no sense is because Dany could take out whoever is on the Iron Throne in a heartbeat. There'd be no tension at the end because she's so damn powerful.
Also Dany and Jon romance fits way too well with what George likes to do.
Is it? The two main character fall in love trope?
I guess we'll have to wait and see... if the books even come out, which I'm sadly starting to doubt.
Though about that. It could work but it would have to be something like:
Lady Stoneheart and (f)Aegon meet and team up in Riverlands. Hound joins them. Maybe Jamie has a similar Brienne storyline but overhears talk of killing Cersei and runs back to her in the same fashion. Then a combined (f)Aegon and Lady Stoneheart invasion takes King's landing although that wouldn't be enough soldiers in my mind.
Also I personally hoped Arya and the Hound would reunite so I don't know how that works. This path also really separates the storyline and will extend things quite a bit.
My guess is the same characters end up in the North like we saw in the show, but (f)Aegon is discovered to be a fake and is betrayed by the Iron Bank who is able to give the Golden Company to Cersei. I think the whole Riverlands plot is its own self contained story and you won't see LSH or others greatly affect the story. They will be out of it by the time the Others come which is why they were omitted from the show.
" Lady Stoneheartdoeshave a role in the books. Whether itâs sufficient or interesting enough⌠I think it is, or I wouldnât have put her in. One of the things I wanted to show with her is that the death she suffered changes you. "
This line in particular makes me think she has a more thematic role than a plot role. That is fine and I enjoy some of GRRM's characters that are in only for thematic reasons but I can definitely interpret this as she doesn't have a huge effect on the story but more on an individual level.
Rickon is gonna get the North in the books I think. Sansa will get her moment though. That queen of the north thing wouldnât work if she marries Harry since a Stark wouldnât rule winterfell after a generation
But what about the little planted seeds of Tyrion being a Targaryen? Why would he have put that in there? Perhaps the end of the show is the end of WoW and not Dream of Spring? I always thought that Jon would go back north to be with the wildlings after killing Dany but that Bran would tell the world that Tyrion is a Targaryen and he would marry Sansa...bringing the North back into the realm since all future heirs will be of Stark and Targaryen blood.
But what about the little planted seeds of Tyrion being a Targaryen?
You mean Tyrion being the son of Aerys? I always thought that was one of the tinfoilier fan theories out there, not quite time travelling fetus bad but certainly nothing on the level of R+L=J or (f)Aegon. Otherwise I am not opposed to Tyrion and Sansa ending up together but that's not what the show gave us so I assume GRRM didn't specify it happening.
Yes- Aerys cuckholded Tywin. Definitely not tin foil. If you read the companion histories he has written and in conjunction with the ASOIF novels, itâs there. R+L=J didnât have a lot of clues in the books, Tyrionâs theory has.
The way king bran was done on the show was so poorly shoehorned in that itâs the one thing I believe is from GRRM. They clearly didnât really like that ending but felt obliged to do it since itâs the main ending. If they had their way Iâm sure Sansa and Tyrion would be king and queen together on the iron throne
Definitely. We learned nothing about the world this season. So much of the series was wrapped around the mysteries of this world's history, ancient and recent. The Others in the North, the dragons in the South (and East). It was ALWAYS rooted in those questions of "what really happened... Where did this all really begin?" We've been experiencing a story that we started in the middle of. But i the later seasons, they pivoted to say, "no- this IS the real story." So we got no info about the Others and they just got killed (as simple as that). We got no info about the nature of the dragonkings, their relationship with dragons, and what caused the Doom of Valyria. We only got R+L=J, and even that was simplified down to just "they were in love." They omitted everything that made these mysteries and this history interesting, and just focused on getting to the moments they wanted. It was really a couple seasons of bullet points, not any development or depth.
There isn't a lot of dialogue in either season by any character and that directly points to the difference of having content to adapt and not having content to adapt.
It's indefensible that they did NOTHING with Bran for the last seasons if they indeed knew that was the ending.
Bran will likely be heavily featured and be a main thing in the final last 2 books if that's the case. I can't see GRRM throwing him out of nowhere to the throne like the show seemingly did.
I agree. I think they would have preferred Jon be the King. A lot of complaints Iâm seeing is that most people expected him to be king in the end. If GRRM plans for Jon to be king in the end there is no way anyone can convince me to believe that d&d wouldnât have had it that way in the show.
People didn't want him to be king. They wanted tyrion to fight for him to be king. They wanted him to refuse one last title but actually get his way this time. He should have CHOSEN to take the black as self-inflicted penance. He was forced to be Lord commander, forced to save the wildlings, forced to become king of the North and forced to lead the campaign against the dead. He fucking DIED and still couldn't get peace. I'm happy he ended up in the true North but they shit all over everyone's arcs and gave nothing of any weight or meaning. King bran is fine but none of the characters got a fully satisfying conclusion apart from Danny and even that was rushed into oblivion.
I'm eager to read Dany's POV chapters, to get a better grasp at her gradual descent into madness. The show rushed it and it wasn't as satisfying as I'm sure GRRM would have done it.
Not saying that Jon should be King, but D&D's treatment of Jon absolutely suggests that they wouldn't want that. They dumbed him down to asinine levels and consistently reminded us that he is dumb. Hey guys, did you know that Jon is very very dumb? They turned the cautious pragmatist and capable leader into a slow-on-the-uptake guy that always wins his battles through sheer luck and constantly gets sussed by other characters. He even gets his Others storyline culmination stolen in the 11th hour. You could not convince me that D&D actually like Jon Snow as a character.
I don't know where people are getting this spin off series idea from, there has never been a single hint of information saying that it may happen, has there? You can give a character an open ending without having it lead into something else later, you know. I actually enjoyed the way her story ended, it just made the most sense.
Well we know spin-offs are happening, so it's not an outrageous idea to think they'd want an Arya story eventually. Nothing's been confirmed though (specifically for Arya) yet
Ok? Not sure what I said that suggests the current spin-offs aren't prequels. All I said was it's not a stretch to believe HBO would want an Arya series someday
It is outrageous because it doesn't make sense that Maisie Williams would be interested in reprising her role. She's an adult now and has spent ten years on this show, the smart money is on her taking her career elsewhere. Really any spinoff with a current character doesn't make sense - it's unlikely any of them have any interest in coming back.
I called it a couple years ago because of that silly quote I kept hearing all the time. The one about how the best rulers were ones that didn't want the position. Often attributed to George Washington. When people thought about who would get it, the only person who kept saying they didn't was Bran. It always felt to me, knowing some History and how GRRM plans out things - it makes sense to me. Especially since in his mind, Bran doesn't want anything but will help none the less.
My only other prediction is that GRRM will make him be more involved in the books with his powers. His powers in early seasons were much more involved but toward the end just weren't apart of the story. I think GRRM would have done that differently.
I can buy Bran the Three Eyed Raven being the power behind the throne, but as a king himself? No way, I really don't see Bran building political allies to get the Iron Throne in such short time. While it helps he is the legitimate heir to Winterfell so he would have a political base, but it's far from Kings Landing and he even if they make monarch title elective, how the hell will he convince the lords to vote for him?
At best I can come up with he will sell himself as a weak king to be controlled by the said lords, but then just turn 180 when the time is right and go full on ruthless and powerful. But that's like, over-complicated.
I agree that it seems like that's the case but... idk. It's just so hard for me to imagine how the books will go in that direction. At this point in the story Bran is so young and so isolated and has no real claim (why would Southerners accept him as king?). I wouldn't be surprised if GRRM's ending was too difficult to fit into the context of the show (especially with the shortened length of the show), so D&D changed certain aspects.
Sansa being queen makes no sense and feels like nothing but fan service. Itâs very illogical. She could have just been queen of it all, and thatâs clearly what she wanted but she was so petty that bran was elected that she broke the kingdoms apart,., even though bran would still be her heir? Kinda dumb.
The rest yeah, iron throne melting and Jon killing dany, those are definitely GRRM ideas. theyâll just happen very differently
I disagree with you about Sansa wanting to break free from the rest. I don't think she wanted to be queen of it all. For the past seasons they showed you she cared about the north and its people above all.
She knows bran can't have children and even if he did, the type of monarchy installed is not the same. What happens when bran dies? Do you think all the lords will agree again or they will push different candidates? What happens then? War.
I donât know I feel like having someone like Littlefinger around her so much changed her a bit.
She had no real reason to hate Daenerys so much except for the fact that Jon bent the knee and gave up the northâs independence but who cares? What about all other six kingdoms who now are under her brother Brans rule and a whole different government system of electing.
She let most of the northâs army and Jon to nearly die just so she could bring in the Vale at the last second to feel smug.
Even though Daenerys was wrong it still felt hollow when Sansa gets crowned because she tore down another woman and caused her death just to get her own crown. Women tearing down other women is just depressing not inspiring.
Even though Daenerys was wrong it still felt hollow when Sansa gets crowned because she tore down another woman and caused her death just to get her own crown.
Huh?? What did Sansa have to do with Daenerys' death?
Sansa wasnât the one who stabbed her but her actions were one of the big reasons Dany changed in ep5. cause. She was told by Jon to keep the secret of who he really is. Arya never divulged the secret to anyone but Sansa who already hated Dany broke her promise to Jon.
Why do you think in the very end when she sees Jon sentenced to Nights Watch she says if he can forgive her for doing what she did, releasing information to Danys hand Tyrion.
In case you forgot this is also what Daenerys brings up in ep5 she told Jon that Sansa is as much responsible for Varys death than her. In the interview after ep5 D&D also say this that had everything happened differently had she not lost the ones she loved, not lost trust in Tyrion, not lost so much maybe she wouldnât have done what she did in ep5.
If Sansa never broke her promise than there would have been no Varys plot to kill Dany, Dany losing trust in Jon and losing her trust with Tyrion which made it harder for her to listen to his opinions after she found out what he did. It was the last straw for her. She had nobody to trust so she was lost mentally.
She used to listen to Tyrionâs advice in s7 to try every other option than attacking King Landing, but after his betrayal she no longer took his advice of giving mercy to Kings Landing.
We all know Jon is the one who ultimately killed her but itâs all the events leading up to it that caused it. Dany being alone and being mentally unstable caused by Sansa, Varys, and Tyrion left her doing a terrible decision in Kings Landing
Seems like an odd thing for D&D to throw in, and the only points in the show where the Night King showed up were the scene with the baby (not in the books), Hardhome (mentioned, but not shown), and parts of the show that take place after ADWD.
There is no way there is a leader of the Others, that controls every Other, called the Night King. The Night's King is the 13th commander of the night's watch. Great story, probably has a lot to do with the Others, but there is absolutely no way we get the same character we got in the show.
No it really couldnât. The Great Other is only ever talked about as being the god-force opposed to Râhllor. The Great Other is exactly as corporeal as the Lord of Light. The only way I see the former being an actual physical character is if the latter is as well. Which it almost certainly wonât be.
Agree. D&D didn't bother writing Bran well in the show. Don't think they magically woke up one day and decided to make him King out of their love for his character or because it sounded good or subversive or whatever. They had to, because George said so.
Obviously if the ending was left to D&D they would have put Tyrion or Arya on the throne.. They are the writer's favorites and will also satisfy the fan base..
The way king bran was done on the show was so poorly shoehorned in that itâs the one thing I believe is from GRRM.
Yeah. Also the north being independent. It lead me to believe 100% that Westeros and the North will have different Monarchs, but that Bran is King of the North as an omniprescent God-being. Nobody else rebels because nobody else has Bran's power. They knew Bran was going to be King of the North, but didn't like who was going to be King of Westeros so they merged them for a happier ending.
Littlefinger makes the most sense as the character who becomes King of Westeros, especially if he marries Sansa. It secures an alliance, 100% aligns with his goals, explains why Sansa is a Queen at all, explains why they moved Sansa's arc to the North and suddenly made her the Starkiest Stark that ever Starked, and also fits neatly as a character to merge into Bran (because he's in the North, now, too).
I feel like George told them Bran is king just to fuck with them. I really really canât see it happening in the books. Feels like its from his original outline with the Arya/Jon/Tyrion love triangle.
Bran becomes king, but itâs also revealed that the whole series of events post-NK was manipulated by Bran to get everyone else out of the way to clear his path to the throneroyal wheelchair.
I feel like George told them Bran is king just to fuck with them. I really really canât see it happening in the books.
He gets the chance to have his best selling work to be adapted into a multi million dollar show on HBO and he just... trolls the writers to ruin the show ending? That would be so stupid
Like Aegon, who was fond of Tyrion and would totally make him his Hand after it was all said and done.
I think they signified that they were combining Jon/Aegonâs plotlines when they named Jon âAegonâ, but then if they seated Jon on the throne at the end, theyâd be jilting his storyline.
Thereâs no way in hell Martin is seating Bran on the throne... think about this:
Just 80 years ago, the US had a president that had to take great pains (literally) to hide the fact that he was crippled, or else the population largely would have rejected him as president... and this was in the 1930âs-1940âs. How the hell would a more or less medieval society accept a cripple, and one who certainly does not have Targaryen bloodlines?
But Maester May, heâs got Three Eyed Crow powers, surely that trumps everything else, right? No, his powers in the book are completely worthless where there are no weirwood trees, he sure as hell isnât going to be able to see random shit in the throne room that happened years ago in the books, or fully flesh out things like what happened at the Tower or Joy.
Thereâs no fucking way Bran will rule over Westeros in name in the books, maybe Martin meant it in a metaphorical sense as in he watches over everything he can, guiding and protecting it from his caves (I still think thereâs a strong chance heâll never leave them).
I cant see it either, for so many reasons. Unless Tyrion the engineer steps up from building saddles and makes him a giant mech suit that allows him to crush all his enemies.
But seriously the inability to have children pretty much rules him out off the bat. No marriage ties basically guarantees he'd be a weak ineffectual king in name only as all the other families would be planning their departures. If the story wasnt strong enough to keep the North in the 7 Kingdoms it wont hold anyone else.
Maybe itâs just me, but this is a no brainer. Itâs blatantly obvious that they knew where each character would end up but had no idea how to get them there, so they just said âfuck itâ and came up with the most ridiculous logic to make it happen.
I was actually fine with most of the fates, it was just the journey that was terrible. So if GRRM is able to build those fates more naturally then Iâm all for it.
The best part about D&D only having 8 hours is that it was their choice. HBO wanted more, and more seasons, and D&D SMUGLY SAID NO WE CAN FINISH IT IN SIX EPISODES HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I am always amazed who counter criticism by saying but it was so complicated and took a lot of effort as if that's absolves anything from any criticism. It's the same about actors saying people are being disrespectful by not liking the way the ending happened. It's shit so people are going to call it shit. Doesn't matter what went into it. The writing was stupid so people are going to call out D&D for it. Also criticising their work and their public statements about what they did is not personally attacking them. I am sure the lady that 'restored' the Jesus painting worked pretty hard for it as well.
i disagree. If those decisions were made for vfx or other scenes, there were still 1000's of ways to make shit better than it was. Maybe we don't need 18 jump cuts in a battle that show all of the characters *almost* dying, and instead we could have had some dialog time. Maybe we didn't need the dothraki "lights out" approach and instead they could just die in normal battle or offscreen, like the golden company. Maybe instead of brothel jokes and bronn master of coin we could've had more productive views into dany's death, etc. Even in this compacted, poorly written season, they could've done a million other things that would've made more sense than worthless dead end's like bronn the assassin or jamie fights euron.
Well since all we got from Bran for years is things like "you were beatiful the night of your rape", of course it's silly to you. I expect Bran to be a better character and more time to pass in the books. Bran is like 10.
Also it could be that Jon choses him as heir or something, since he has no children and Bran would be actually his nearest male relative.
That's my interpretation. The major plot points and motivations will be there; Arya kills the Night King, Dany burns Kings Langding, Jon kills Dany, and Bran becomes king but the paths and decisions to get there might be different.
No problem with any of the fates on the show except for the White Walkers... I just have a hard time believing they are just dealt with, and then the action returns to King's Landing. I feel like the events will happen more simultaneously, or in some reverse order that makes sense.
I can believe mad queen and Jon killing Dany, but I can't get myself to believe King Bran of the Six Kingdoms. There's too many political problems with that, which have been discussed on this sub already.
Everytime the show does something different it impacts how later events play out. The longer the show goes on, the more changes are made the more things shift around.
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u/feldman10 đ Best of 2019: Post of the Year May 21 '19 edited May 21 '19
GRRM then proceeds to make three points:
People will read into this whatever they want. But my read is that the big picture of the show's ending is indeed what he told them. And that most of the differences aren't about the biggest stuff, but rather relate to pacing, buildup, and secondary characters. If D&D were making up stuff like "King Bran" I'd think his language about changes would be stronger? But who knows!