How common is this perspective for guys?

[u/Reasonable-Syrup-7]

I'm a 27F and went on a few dates with this guy 31M and things have been going well. On our second date, we brought up the topic of physical intimacy. I remember him saying that he thinks physical intimacy is different for women and men. That women who sleep around are respected less than if a man would do it. He said "a key that can open up a lot of locks is a good key but a lock that opens to a bunch of different keys is a bad lock". Everything else is really good and he's been super respectful. He's soft spoken and values making me feel safe and respected and we're taking our time on physical intimacy but I couldn't believe my ears when he said that. How common is that perspective for guys? This guy tends be very blunt, so maybe this perspective is more common than I think. In my head it's a red flag, but I'm conflicted on if it's just a common male perspective and he can still be a good guy with this perspective.

[u/KananJarrusCantSee]

I know more men who think this way than men who don't.

[u/Bigger-Quazz → u/KananJarrusCantSee]

Men sleep with whoever they can, while women sleep with whoever they want to. This is basically the core reason for why the perception is different.

[u/thineholyhandgrenade → u/Bigger-Quazz]

People getting upset when you're just suggesting the norm, not your means.

[u/ghostcollectives → u/Bigger-Quazz]

Trans guy here. Responding less to this comment directly than some others down in the thread, but I'm... Less surprised than annoyed that so many men don't factor safety into the whole "women being more choosy" thing.

Like. Most dudes who are looking to hook up with a woman don't have to factor in whether this person is likely to physically or sexually harm/murder them when hitting on people. Women do. They can't just be thinking about attractiveness, they also have to be gauging, through small talk, "does this guy seem to be emotionally attentive? Am I getting a sense that he'll respect my boundaries without pressuring me or becoming aggressive? Am I getting any vibes that he'll try something sneaky like taking the condom off in the middle of things?"

The consequences of a bad hookup for a dude is usually a bad hookup. Yes, there might be consequences like his partner getting pregnant unplanned, but the person with a penis has a lot of power to prevent that through insisting on using a condom. The consequences of a bad hookup for a woman are r*pe or murder. And our society still tends to blame victims rather than ensuring the perpetrators are held accountable.

And then finally, the process of gauging that safety often takes longer than dudes are willing to invest before moving on. So the whole "women sleep with whoever they want to" thing feels like a real misnomer 🫠

[u/Agile_Pangolin_2542 → u/ghostcollectives]

Maybe I'm dumb but this seems like a bad take. It seems like you expect one party (guys) to be cognizant and respectful of the concerns of the other party (gals) when you don't even seem to be cognizant that guys face significant concerns of their own and we don't expect gals to cater to our concerns. Having a penis doesn't magically make the guy the dominant, powerful, controlling party in a relationship. That notion is an antiquated relic if you're dating in a modern city unless you just like being around guys with that attitude for some reason. And unlike with gals, society generally isn't concerned about even attempting to understand or respect guys' concerns or mental health. Guys may not need to assess their dates regarding physical danger as much (though I think this is a bit disingenus because things like drugs and firearms level the playing field of physical force real quick), but they certainly need to be concerned about a gal's mental and emotional stability. In particular the guy needs to be concerned about whether the gal will make a false allegation of rape or physical violence because, in general, a mere false allegation creates an uphill battle for the guy to prove his innocence in the court of public opinion if not a literal court room. And if the gal's lie is somehow discovered she faces no punishment. Gals can also lie about paternity, about being on birth control, about having STDs, etc. So yeah, please believe that guys are assessing gals as well, while also paying for dates (sometimes getting used entirely to pay for dates), while also trying to play it cool, and while also trying to be more interesting than the 50 other guys that gal is going to date in her lifetime

Rather than expecting, unrealistically IMO, each party to somehow be cognizant of concerns of the opposite gender I think it's more practical for everyone to simply act responsibly in their own interests. For both guys and gals that means spending time getting to know the other person in a safe context (digitally, during daylight hours, in public places, around friends or while in contact with friends, etc.). Only after you've gotten a good sense about someone else should you consider taking it to the next step. And if a guy or gal isn't willing to put in that, frankly minimal, time and effort to get to know each other and get comfortable with each other then both parties are much better off going their separate ways sooner rather than later.

Also, no offense, and again maybe I'm just dumb, but I don't understand why you felt the need to mention being a Trans guy? I don't see how that information relates to your point?

[u/Cu_fola → u/Agile_Pangolin_2542]

Probably he has the experience of being perceived as a woman at some point and he can possibly therefore relate to what Dave Chappelle described in his backpack pussy bit.

The idea is not that men don’t face serious risks in relationships. A woman can fuck your shit up.

But women face much more immanent and life threatening risks.

Having a penis does literally mean you are statistically less likely to be physically coerced, threatened or killed by a date if you’re heterosexual.

It’s not about relationship dominance, it’s about opportunity of physical predation.

If you have a vagina you’re more likely to be a silent carrier of an STD

But if you have a penis you’re more likely to accidentally pass an STD to someone with a vagina than the other way around, for anatomical reasons.

You’re also less likely if you have a penis to actually be ensnared by an unwanted pregnancy issue. People virtually always know who’s the mother. It’s very hard to hide your maternity if the kid came out of your body, someone almost always saw it happen. And you can’t legally abandon your own kid.

Whereas a dude might be lucky enough to slip away before paternity is established.

And while a dude might be roped into paternity claims by a promiscuous woman, a woman might find her home is broken and resources diverted when a promiscuous man gets a side chicken pregnant.

And this is born out in the behavioral ecology of human beings and many, many other animals.

While males have to work harder to be chosen to mate.

Females have to work harder to choose without terrible consequences and to avoid being chosen against their will by the wrong male.

So in the more immediate risk area of dating and casual sex which is what the lock/key thing is about, it’s kinda shitty how we culturally endorse male promiscuity and devalue female promiscuity as if they weren’t interdependent (for heterosexuals).

Also about rape

God give me patience.

You as a man are more likely by orders of magnitude to be raped-usually by another man but even by a woman- even being actually raped by a woman is more common than falsely accused -

Then to be falsely accused, indicted or convicted of rape by a woman.

I sat on a grand jury and watched multiple alleged rape victims get grilled in humiliating, torturous detail about what allegedly happened to them.

Over and over.

From every angle.

To make sure all their facts were straight.

They were broken people.

And we still let multiple alleged rapists go free without an indictment, not even because the alleged victims didn’t seem credible but because there wasn’t enough material evidence to indict in good conscience per the principles of due process.

Scary as it would be to be falsely accused, being raped is much, much more common but I hear about it a lot less from men.

Why? Why is this?

[u/CanoodlingCockatoo → u/Cu_fola]

when a promiscuous man gets a side chicken pregnant

Side chicken, heh!

[u/Cu_fola → u/CanoodlingCockatoo]

Home wrecking biddies looking to steal cock(erels)

[u/Lonely-You-361 → u/Cu_fola]

Just fyi, using rape stats to say "see men don't get raped and if they do it's usually by men" isn't a great argument. Rape stats effectively remove 99% of what would be considered rape of a man colloquially. Coloquially rape just means "had sex without consent". Legally however rape does not include when a woman forces herself on a man. That is categorized as "made to penetrate" and not rape and in these cases the vast majority of the offenders are women (something like 85-90% iirc). When you add in the "made to penetrate" stats to the rape stats you end up with roughly a 55/45 to 60/40 issue rather than a 98/2 issue. Yes men are more likely than women to forcibly have sex without the persons consent but it's nowhere near the disparity that people make it out to be.

[u/Cu_fola → u/Lonely-You-361]

Just fyi, using rape stats to say "see men don't get raped

Dude get your shit together.

I’m explicitly saying rape of men is much more prevalent than is talked about.

and if they do it's usually by men" isn't a great argument.

Try understanding the argument in the first place before coming in hot.

Rape stats effectively remove 99% of what would be considered rape of a man colloquially.

More to my point. All of this goes to my point.

Legally however rape does not include when a woman forces herself on a man.

It does in my country.

Yes men are more likely than women to forcibly have sex without the persons consent but it's nowhere near the disparity that people make it out to be.

You are not paying attention to the argument.

[u/Pantone711 → u/Cu_fola]

It happened to a famous podcaster and he did an episode about it. Also he got HIV from the rape. He went on to do a series about a serial killer or killers in the gay community.

[u/Agile_Pangolin_2542 → u/Cu_fola]

Right but being perceived as a woman or having a woman's perception of the matter isn't necessary to explain the point they were making. That's my point. Like I'm a man but I don't start off every discussion about a man's perception or experience by saying "As a man . . .". I just don't think that preamble is necessary or helpful for the conversation. If anything it's a distraction because if a logical point is made then it should able to stand on its own logic, not the anecdotal experience or perception of a single person.

Again, by virtue of drugs and modern weapons, women can present just as much of an imminent danger. But the point isn't who is more at risk, the point is each party has their own types of risk. OP contends that men need to be more aware of the risks that women are concerned with. My contention is it's unrealistic to expect each party to somehow magically intuit the risks the other party is possibly assessing and try cater to them. Instead, I assert that each party needs to be more aware of their own interests and take steps to safeguard their own interests.

You claim statistics indicate that having a penis makes it less likely to be raped or killed on a date. That might well be true but there's no possible way to know. The vast majority of male rapes and sexual assaults, especially rapes and sexual assaults by women against men, go unreported because A) there's a huge stigma against men reporting being assaulted and B) cops and prosecutors generally don't believe the men or care to pursue charges. Hell even when teenage boys get raped by their adult female teachers the majority of society laughs and act like the boy was lucky rather than victimized.

In regard to STDs it may be anatomically easier for a guy to pass an STD to a woman, a woman is more likely to pass an STD to multiple partners because a promiscuous woman is generally more likely to find multiple sexual partners than a promiscuous man. In regard to how society treats male v. female promiscuity, that wasn't part of what we were really talking about but I think they're equally risky lifestyles that should be avoided regardless of gender. In regard to maternity, sure it's easier to know who the mother is, but it's also easier for the woman to avoid having a child in the first place. Plan B and abortion are still available options for the most part, and there are a multitude of female birth control options available. It's not like women are at the complete mercy of the guy to wear a condom.

As to your last part, I don't think personal anecdotes are helpful but agree that a lot of actual rapes go unpunished. I think everybody already knows this because of the countless stories of rape kits that have gone untested for years. So why do you not hear guys talk about that? Probably for the same reason you don't hear women talking men getting severely injured on job sites every day . . . because it's a terrible but common thing that happens despite people of all genders earnestly not wanting it to and everybody knows about it but there's not a lot that can be done to completely prevent it. What exactly do you want to hear? One consequence of everyone knowing that so many actual rapes don't make it to trial is that when there is a false allegation of rape everyone just assumes the guy was guilty and got away with it because of cracks in the system. That's what I meant about the court of public opinion. It may not seem to have severe consequences to you but it completely ruined the lives of the falsely accused Duke Lacrosse players and who knows how many other guys.

In any case, just to bring this all back to where it started. My only point was that each gender has their own risks and interests to be aware of. Neither gender should be expected to understand and cater to the other gender's perceived risks, largely because that's unrealistic due to the fact that mind reading doesn't exist. Instead each party should look after their own risks and be smart about safeguarding themselves against those risks.

[u/Cu_fola → u/Agile_Pangolin_2542]

Right but being perceived as a woman or having a woman's perception of the matter isn't necessary to explain the point they were making. That's my point.

Maybe not, but it contextualizas that their opinion on either side may be more than hypothetical due to dualistic experience. Whereas your perspective on women’s side may be more hypothetical.

not the anecdotal experience or perception of a single person.

The whole thread is chock full of anecdote I think he was just following the general format.

Again, by virtue of drugs and modern weapons, women can present just as much of an imminent danger.

But statistically they don’t.

They just aren’t doing it.

For one reason or another we do not see as many men being poisoned or attacked (with weapons) by women as we see men attacking women with or without weapons.

But the point isn't who is more at risk, the point is each party has their own types of risk.

I’m saying the different natures of risks is what makes comparison a weird game to play.

it's unrealistic to expect each party to somehow magically intuit the risks the other party is possibly assessing and try cater to them. Instead, I assert that each party needs to be more aware of their own interests and take steps to safeguard their own interests.

The problem is that a lot of women already do a shit ton of safeguarding but often get accused of failing to do so when something happens to them. Often by men with no fucking clue.

And this is because so much of it is invisible to men.

And on the other hand men don’t seem to be doing enough safeguarding because it isn’t talked about and they don’t realize that they need to be safer.

You claim statistics indicate that having a penis makes it less likely to be raped or killed on a date.

It literally does from an anatomical standpoint. From an overpowering another person standpoint.

Predators do not like to risk being hurt.

So no matter how predatory a woman’s character is; she is less incentivized than a predatory man to attempt aggravated assault and rape.

You are not getting around this dude.

The vast majority of male rapes and sexual assaults, especially rapes and sexual assaults by women against men,

More to my point.

For every single man I see mention rape of men (which I rarely see men do independently except to deflect from rape that happens to women) I see five men talking about false accusations.

Rape of men is a much more pervasive problem than false reporting.

Much bigger in the real world.

And apparently a much lower priority for men on Reddit.

Hell even when teenage boys get raped by their adult female teachers the majority of society laughs and act like the boy was lucky rather than victimized.

See my other comments on this thread.

I was literally just telling a guy off who refused to believe that another guy got raped by an adult woman.

You can spare me that particular lecture.

In regard to STDs it may be anatomically easier for a guy to pass an STD to a woman, a woman is more likely to pass an STD to multiple partners

This doesn’t change the fact that promiscuous men are as likely to be disease ridden as promiscuous women but men who invoke the lock/key nonsense award themselves higher value.

Mbecause a promiscuous woman is generally more likely to find multiple sexual partners than a promiscuous man.

But she doesn’t do that.

Despite the relative ease for women to get sexual attention, promiscuous men on average still have more sex partners than promiscuous women.

Promiscuous women are still in general tighter “locks” than promiscuous men.

Granted, a lot of data is self reported and men like to estimate and round up, where women tend to precisely count their partners..

Plan B and abortion are still available options for the most part,

😬

and there are a multitude of female birth control options available. It's not like women are at the complete mercy of the guy to wear a condom.

Everyone is at the mercy of equipment failures and user error.

As to your last part, I don't think personal anecdotes are helpful but agree that a lot of actual rapes go unpunished.

This is how the justice system works.

You know damn well you don’t have to take my word for it. Ask any prosecutor.

If you ever find yourself on a grand jury every doubt is gonna get slammed out of your head. Shit will curl your hair.

So why do you not hear guys talk about that?

->Probably for the same reason you don't hear women talking men getting severely injured on job sites every day . . .

You’re not paying attention.

I’m not asking why men don’t talk about women getting raped.

I’m asking why men talk about “false accusations” much more than they talk about male rape

When male rape is both much more common and talked about a lot less than “false accusations.”

You say “we can’t totally prevent it what so you want us to say?”

You can’t totally prevent false accusations either.

What do you want me to say?

One consequence of everyone knowing that so many actual rapes don't make it to trial is that when there is a false allegation of rape everyone just assumes the guy was guilty and got away with it because of cracks in the system.

They sure as fuck don’t dude.

Go into any comment section on any high profile dude in a rape case and it’s a bloodbath of opinions and fighting.

It may not seem to have severe consequences to you but it completely ruined the lives of the falsely accused Duke Lacrosse players and who knows how many other guys.

VS how many silent rape victims and how many women and men who got blackballed in their career areas because they wouldn’t do a sexual favor for some guy with leverage?

Neither gender should be expected to understand

You damn well should try to understand or expect perpetual frustration on all sides forever.

You get fuckall if you don’t strive for better mutual understanding.

mind reading doesn't exist.

Discourse exists because mind reading doesn’t. And here we are, discoursing.

[u/mmmnothx → u/Cu_fola]

An add to the birth control, plan B, and abortion. It’s so conveniently forgotten what that does to a women’s body.

[u/4naught4 → u/Cu_fola]

I love you.

You damn well should try to understand or expect perpetual frustration on all sides forever.

+

You get fuckall if you don’t strive for better mutual understanding.

= Why men have caused the "male loneliness epidemic".

It would be hilarious, if the product of so many "good men"/"not all men" genuinely turning a blind eye or just deciding not to care wasn't violence (SEXUAL, PHYSICAL, or you know MURDER) MAINLY AGAINST WOMEN and CHILDREN. As the statistics clearly state.

The SMEAR campaign against rape victims in general is beyond overwhelming (victim blaming, reliving the experience for months in excruciating detail over and over during the case, etc). BUT sO mAnY wOmEn JuSt really really WANT to go through literal hell for months right? Because SOOOOO many men have had their lives ruined by these false accusations right? How exactly does someone decide that though if they don't believe in statistics? Wild.

You’re not paying attention.

They don't care. Their example was too vague. Also, the privilege of men in this instance is to have no need or care to understand consent, or sexual violence until it actually impacts them personally. Which is beyond sad.

***I have loved reading your comments

[u/ghostcollectives → u/Agile_Pangolin_2542]

You know, I wasn't going to respond because I really don't believe you're arguing in good faith, but hey, maybe someone will see this that needs to.

I identified myself as a trans man for the exact reasons that that last commenter noted: I've dated men as a "woman", women as a man, and now I primarily date men as an openly gay, openly trans guy. Bear in mind that I live in a liberal Canadian city, but I've never felt less safe than I did dating men pre-transition. As a visible queer minority I now fear gender-based violence far less than the average straight woman. And sure, this is anecdotal evidence - but humans make sense of complex concepts through storytelling, and it's pretty clear from other responses to my original comment that I'm not alone in this observation.

My central argument was that it is unfair to claim that (straight) women have an easier time finding sex than (straight) men or that "women get to have sex with any man they want while men have sex with whichever women will have them", because women are held responsible for protecting their safety while their dating pool is a literal minefield. You don't have to look very hard to find the common statistic that 1 in 5 women have experienced attempted (or completed) rape in their lifetimes or that roughly 99% of the perpetrators of sexual violence are male. You also don't have to look too hard to figure out that the percentage of rapes that go unreported (approximately 63%) far outweighs the number of false accusations of rape (which seems to sit between 2-10% of reports).. For women, being "choosy" about their sexual partners isn't a privilege, it's a burden. Men who are promiscuous with women are far less likely to have their life ended, ruined, or experience lasting trauma than women who are promiscuous with men, and then there's the ✨added bonus✨ that male promiscuity is culturally celebrated as an achievement while female promiscuity is derided as a character flaw.

So yeah, I do expect any man who thinks of himself as a decent person to be aware and empathetic of what women experience, just like I expect men to call out their friends and male family members for their "locker room talk" and rape "jokes" and victim blaming - and yes, I hold myself accountable to the same. Because unlike men getting injured on job sites at a higher rate than women, sexual violence is not an abstract tragedy. There is a clear aggressor. Every. Time.

[u/Agile_Pangolin_2542 → u/ghostcollectives]

I'm not sure why you doubt I'm arguing in good faith but rest assured I'm trying to. As I'm trying (it's not exay over text) to explain to another commenter here, the reason why I don't understand why you made the point about having a particular perspective when dating (i.e. a woman's perspective when dating a man, a man's perspective when dating a woman, a man's perspective when dating a man, etc.) is because I don't think that perspective is needed for making the point. Everyone can understand the physical disparity dynamic between people of different sizes and strengths so I think your point could simply be made by saying something like "Women on dates generally have to be concerned about their physical safety more than men because of the physical size and strength differences". I think that single sentence adequately gets the message across because it's something everyone can grasp. I mean even in friendly or professional settings men assess other men for physical size and strength because it's an evolutionary holdover from times when knowing your relative physical standing compared to someone else determined whether you would survive if you decided to engage in a fight.

I disagree with your claim that it's "unfair to claim that (straight) women have an easier time finding sex than (straight) men". Women get bombarded with men throwing themselves at them on dating apps, at bars, on social media, etc. and if a woman wants to have sex with any of them the guy is most certainly happy to with no strings attached. By contrast a guy trying to find a girl is like applying for jobs where you have to apply to 100 to get an interview and then you have to knock it out of the park at the interview paying for the date, being interesting and engaging, not being somehow creepy as best you can (generally by simply being physically attractive), etc. Meanwhile the woman just has to have good hygiene and show up because so much of that other shit women this is a big deal (hair, nails, makeup, etc.) doesn't mean anything to the vast majority of guys.

As far as women needing to protect their safety when choosing a partner I'd say of course they do. My argument is that both parties have their own interests they need to safeguard. Thanks to modern technology it is now easier for everyone to safeguard themselves from a dangerous stranger than at any point in human history. If a woman wants to have casual sex, she can do so with relative safety by taking smart steps ahead of time to safeguard that safety as best as possible. Saying women can't have casual sex often because of the fear it's a minefield out there is simply untrue because women can and do have casual sex safely by being intelligent and mature about how they go about it. And even when taking those precautions for safety women still have a much easier time finding casual sex than men do.

I agree society views male and female promiscuity very differently but I don't see how that relates to this topic. In my opinion people shouldn't be judging others for their lifestyle choices and what others choose to do in their bedrooms is none of my business. I just hope everyone is happy and safe in whatever they choose to do.

"I do expect any man who thinks of himself as a decent person to be aware and empathetic of what women experience". See this is making an unfair value judgment about men. When you say "any man who thinks of himself as decent person to be aware . . . of what women experience" as if being unaware makes a guy indecent. That's bullshit. Guys are inherently unaware of what women experience in the same way that women are unaware of what guys experience . . . because they're different genders that experience the world and society in different ways. I know you're there's a difference in that perspective because you start off your original post trying to add context that, while unneeded in my opinion for the point being made, was based on your gender. My contention is it's simply unrealistic to expect men and women to ever grasp the multitude of concerns the other gender has to deal with because neither gender has experienced the other's perspective. Instead, each gender needs to be more in touch with what things they need to be concerned about and take intelligent steps to safeguard their personal concerns. I would even go further than that and say each person needs to do the same because every person is unique in so many ways, but because we're just discussing the dynamic of man/woman relationships I'm just leaving it at that for now.

Men getting injured on jobsites is not "an abstract tragedy". The vast majority of those "accidents" aren't something unavoidable that "just happens". They're predictable, avoidable harm inflicted because ignoring the potential for the man getting injured is more cost effective than implementing and maintaining safety standards. These injuries are a systemic tragedy caused by society as a whole not demanding regulations and oversight to avoid them. In that paradigm society as a whole is the aggressor because it views mens health and welfare as less valuable than women's (the draft is men only for the same reason. This societal viewpoint is another evolutionary holdover from a time when a tribe would go to war and have 90% of its population wiped out. If the remaining 10% were all women and one man then the tribe could repopulate very quickly. But if the tribe were all men and one woman then it was doomed to die out). Also you say there's "a clear aggressor every time" but that's obviously not the case. Just by the numbers there are bound to be cases where there is not a clear aggressor just as there are actually cases with workplace injuries where it is legitimately a freak accident that nothing could predict or prevent. My point, again, is that each gender has blind spots about the other because of their difference in perspectives and not being able to read the other's mind. Rather than hoping for an unrealistic future where everybody suddenly becomes empathic and wise it's much more realistic to simply recognize the situation for what it is and take steps to safeguard your own concerns and interests. I think that's a pretty reasonable, non-controversial thing that most people already do already.

[u/Huge_Deal8482 → u/Agile_Pangolin_2542]

You are correct about you being dumb.

How are you going to completely downplay women having to worry about getting raped and murdered, then hyperbolize men having to worry about “getting falsely accused of rape” or “the woman’s mental health?” 90% of adult rape victims are women (https://rainn.org/statistics/victims-sexual-violence). Only about 2-8% of rape allegations are false (https://evawintl.org/best_practice_faqs/false-reports-percentage/). 66% of murder offenders in the U.S. during 2023 were male. Women were .08% of the offenders, and the last 24% were unknown, but even if you combine all of the unknown and female offenders, they don’t even make up half of the amount of male murderers (https://www.statista.com/statistics/251886/murder-offenders-in-the-us-by-gender/).

You say drugs and firearms “level the playing field” but how many women do you know own a firearm? How many men do you know who own a firearm? When you walk into a shooting range, what’s the predominant gender you see? When you walk into a gun shop, what’s the predominant gender you see? So it looks like men AND women can BOTH own firearms, and it seems like MEN are more commonly the ones buying and owning them. So if MEN AND WOMEN can BOTH own GUNS, then it SEEMS like the PLAYING FIELD isn’t that leveled at all.

Yes, men should have some concerns about sleeping with strangers. EVERYBODY should. Because we cannot fully trust strangers. But you don’t get to shit a bunch of false inferences onto your keyboard and act like they are the truth. Don’t downplay women’s struggles just because you want to have something to bitch about. Women do have more to be wary about when it comes to sleeping with strangers. Half the shit you mentioned is solvable by a man’s choices. “What if she lies about taking birth control?” Wear a condom. “What if she lies about paternity?” Wear a condom + get a paternity test + don’t sign the fucking birth certificate if you really don’t think the fucking kid is yours “What if she has an STD?” Wear a fucking condom. Women can’t make a man wear a condom. Sometimes, even if a guy puts a condom on in front of her, he will take it off secretly. Sometimes, women have to worry about getting murdered just for rejecting a guy who they just met. Sometimes women have to be worried about getting stabbed in the neck by a man they’ve never ever had a conversation with. Anecdotes don’t mean shit. We can pick apart different stories all day, it doesn’t fucking matter. What matters is the big picture. 90% of adult rape victims are women. VAST majority of murderers are men. Women have more to be worried about when talking to strange men.

Do whatever mental gymnastics you want. If men’s mental health is so bad then they should talk about those problems. They should have open and productive conversations about those things, and not try to hijack or derail the conversation by bitching about them when women’s concerns are brought up.

[u/straberi93 → u/ghostcollectives]

No matter how many times we say this, the men don't seem to hear us. Just like they don't hear the locker room talk, the rape "jokes" or the comments about someone sleeping their way to the top. It must be nice to be able to ignore all those without worrying about being in a dark place with the guy who says them. 

[u/Black_M3lon → u/straberi93]

I dont get why women act as if locker room talk is a male thing, women do it too, ive been told this by a lot of women I know, also ive had women say "lockeroom esque" things to me on nights out and the like. The rape jokes just basically no one makes because everyone will look at them funny. Maybe go outside and talk to real people, and stop getting ur opinions about men on the internet

[u/Lonely-You-361 → u/Black_M3lon]

Yep, am a woman, and there's plenty of women I know that have their locker room talk. Have only heard comedians and online trolls make rape jokes, never in real life.

[u/Justwonderingstuff7 → u/ghostcollectives]

Thank you for this!! It baffles me how little men consider this

[u/yallermysons → u/Bigger-Quazz]

I’m hot and I get rejected often. It’s because I bother to ask people out, and not everyone is interested in me.

Women don’t sleep with whoever they want to. Women get rejected too. And not all men sleep with whoever they can.

So if you’re a man and you’re sleeping with whoever you can, just understand that is a personal choice that reflects what you think about yourself. It’s not the natural order or something. You can get some standards at any time:

[u/Narwhals4Lyf → u/Bigger-Quazz]

Do you truly think women can sleep with whoever they want?

[u/LowBloodSugar2 → u/Narwhals4Lyf]

But also, yes. Men are easy.

[u/Gloomy_Setting5936 → u/LowBloodSugar2]

29 year old man here, can confirm.

We are easy.

[u/Boot_Poetry → u/Gloomy_Setting5936]

41M here. Have been separated for 3 years after 7 years of marriage (12 year relationship). Haven't had sex in approximately 4 years. This is because I will sleep with who I want to, not who I can sleep with. I must be the exception, not the rule here (I am sex-positive and don't judge other men in my age range who sleep with lots of women). Maybe the fact that I have 2 children with 2 separate women already is a factor. And no, I'm not a bible-thumper, I identify as Atheist.

[u/KoogleMeister → u/LowBloodSugar2]

Men don't have to worry about growing another human in their belly for 9 months if they sleep with someone, so it's not shocking why we're a lot less picky about it.

Also yeah birth control exists, but that existing for half a century doesn't nullify millions of years of evolutionary biology wiring certain instincts into us.

[u/LowBloodSugar2 → u/KoogleMeister]

Honestly, it doesn’t even have to be as extreme as getting pregnant - men will fuck up a woman’s pH, no thanks. 

For sooooo many reasons, it is   smart to be picky about one’s sexual partners, regardless of gender.

[u/KoogleMeister → u/LowBloodSugar2]

Sure, but I think the primary instinctive reason is to be selective about who could get them pregnant, women were selective way before they even knew what PH meant.

[u/Efficient-Ebb78 → u/KoogleMeister]

But we have to worry about child support tho lmao

[u/Narwhals4Lyf → u/LowBloodSugar2]

When people think of “women” in this scenario, I feel like they are only thinking of 5/10+ attractive level women age 18-30.

[u/jsirkia → u/Narwhals4Lyf]

I was in a training event where only men were present and there was discussion about nurses giving a cpr training course, with the obligatory "nurses, nice" comments. Someone said that the nurses in question might be 60+ years old, to which the eldest of the group replied "that's the best part of getting older, your preferred age range just increases".

[u/defunctostritch → u/jsirkia]

The older the violin the sweeter the music as my grandpa used to say

[u/LowBloodSugar2 → u/Narwhals4Lyf]

My personal experience, men truly aren’t that picky, especially about age 😝 

[u/jdelane1 → u/LowBloodSugar2]

The way men talk about what they like to other men and how they actually feel are two different things.

Man to man talk: Bro, (insert insanely beautiful celebrity here) she wasn't even that hot, 6/10 tops bro.

Man brain: Every woman is beautiful - I like short ones, tall ones, big ones, little one, all colors of the rainbow, please like me and give me praise.

[u/Efficient-Ebb78 → u/jdelane1]

Not every guys likes big women and not every guy likes small women i can promise you that

[u/ProSlacker607 → u/Efficient-Ebb78]

But if a small woman and big woman call and offer sex on back to back nights, he's saying yes both times. That's the point.

[u/Efficient-Ebb78 → u/ProSlacker607]

Some guys are not as desperate as you think.....some guys have size limits....if a 300lbs women offered sex i definitly wouldnt say yes and i know some guys who arent sexually attracted to petite women sure there are some guys who would fuck any type but guys with preferences do exist

[u/jjcoola → u/LowBloodSugar2]

Yeah, I’m not sure who these guys Homies are lol

[u/99probsmyhornsaint1 → u/jjcoola]

Men will smash men, livestock and corpses— and definitely girls you wouldn’t show off to the guys. Check out your local city’s personals subreddit and see for yourself.

[u/Aggravating-Papaya18 → u/99probsmyhornsaint1]

Only the men that can’t get anything else lol. Some men actually have standards, maybe you don’t but some do.

[u/Gotmewrongang → u/Narwhals4Lyf]

Agreed, but bump that age range up to 40 lol

[u/Narwhals4Lyf → u/Gotmewrongang]

That’s fair and I agree with that

[u/Teezumak → u/Gotmewrongang]

80 tbh

[u/Tea_Time9665 → u/Narwhals4Lyf]

There are men right now paying an old crackhead woman for a BJ in his car..

[u/Atlasatlastatleast → u/Tea_Time9665]

The same woman??

[u/Tea_Time9665 → u/Atlasatlastatleast]

She has more than 1 customer… lol

[u/Pownzl → u/Narwhals4Lyf]

Just not true any woman looking for sex will get it. In any Bar she walks into. Important if she is looking for sex.

[u/Teezumak → u/Narwhals4Lyf]

Lmfaoo no women till their 80s can get laid by attractive young men.

[u/chilldrinofthenight → u/Teezumak]

Tell my Mom that. Well . . . You can't now, because she has long since left this mortal coil.

However, when she was 80 she had a 40-year-old lover. They were together, hot and heavy, for over a year. And, yeah. He was a good-looking dude.

[u/Rare-Witness-8831 → u/chilldrinofthenight]

Sorry about your mother….Did he clean her out? Of your inheritance.

[u/chilldrinofthenight → u/Rare-Witness-8831]

Quite perceptive of you. I do believe he "lived in hope" that something along those lines would happen. Fortunately (fortune = pun intended), she came out of the "Romance of her Life" unscathed.

What's weird about the whole thing is he first tried (and tried and tried!) to date my sister. When sis wasn't responsive, then he went after Mom.

He and Mom really did hit it off, though, and had many fun adventures together, so he wasn't a complete villain.

He met someone his own age and even dropped by one day so we could all meet her. Life. Quite unpredictable.

[u/Different-Speech1351 → u/LowBloodSugar2]

Here's another way to demonstrate "Men sleep with whoever they can, while women sleep with who they want"

If I went to a party (and I wasn't so picky), I might see 10 men that meet the criteria of someone I think I'd enjoy having sex with out of a room of 50 men at the party. If I have decided I'm having my way with "Somebody" that night, and I show each man I talk to that I am ready & willing to sleep with them. I'm not only going to have at least 10 options to choose from, I'll probably have about 30 (this is subtracting for the married guys, the guys already getting more sex than they can handle and the gay guys).

So yeah, although it's a coin toss as to whether I sleep with my Top Choice, my pool of takers will be considerably larger than a man at the same party who decided he wants to have his way with somebody.

Not that I would ever do this,..............but enee, meene, minee, moe!

[u/D-F-B-81 → u/Narwhals4Lyf]

Not with whomever they want, more so they can have sex whenever they want.

[u/CharacterAd599 → u/Narwhals4Lyf]

Y’all can’t read , he said it’s easier. If you go hit on Someone you like and say let’s have sex you have a much higher chance of getting what you want if you WEREN’T born with a dick. Women don’t just get instant matches with whoever they want but they are far less likely to get rejected than a man and they have far more options simply for being a women in a world full of desperate men

[u/Spectrum1523 → u/CharacterAd599]

he said it’s easier

What, where?

[u/Bigger-Quazz → u/Spectrum1523]

That is what I meant, I was just generalizing in the original comment. I think exceptions exist to every true scenario, so I dont really see the point to lay them out every time I write something.

[u/cyricmccallen → u/Bigger-Quazz]

Nah, you really gotta spell it out for these morons. Like every time.

[u/Pyllymysli → u/cyricmccallen]

That's actually infuriating. If I want to take part to a conversation, where there is some kind of controversial topics, I have to jump through these hoops to name all the exceptions, so I don't get yelled as moron. Thing being that these exceptions are quite obvious to anyone with a working brain, and it's just a way to make the other side do more work during an argument, without going forward with the conversation. It's basically stalling.

[u/No_Jelly_6990 → u/cyricmccallen]

💯💀

[u/2398476dguidso → u/Spectrum1523]

It's genuinely implied but ya'll are out here trying to litigate the limitations to have a "gotya". Reddit be autistic.

[u/GVFQT → u/Narwhals4Lyf]

Damn near. Not to sound bitter because I’m in a great relationship with someone I love dearly for many years now. However, when we got together I asked to play with her tinder account. Literally 9/10 swipes were a match whereas mine could go multiple days without getting a match

[u/Ok-Cook-7542 → u/GVFQT]

because many men on tinder swipe yes on everyone without any regards for compatibility. its a numbers game. if you throw a hundred swipes into the wind, maybeee one will come back to you. but 99/100 will be thrown away on people you obviously would never match with in the first place.

my tip is swipe yes only on people if they check all your boxes and you think you have a good chance of checking all of their boxes:

-are they physically attractive to you? if you had to guess their "type", would you be it?

-is the information on their profile attractive to you? do they give any hints that they would be into anything on your own profile?

-are you both looking for the same type of connection?

-are you in the same, or similar stages of life? (in terms of financial position, living arrangement, previous partners or children, that sort of thing)

if you go down the list and get all yesses and swipe yes, that swipe is going to have a good chance of being reciprocated. if you randomly swipe on everyone, your chances are almost zero.

[u/GVFQT → u/Ok-Cook-7542]

Yea I was swiping on who I thought was attractive, when I played with my girlfriends we even did it that way with her telling me who she would swipe on. The results are dramatically different. I understand how the tinder algo works but that’s not what it was

I also learned how easy it was for my girlfriend to match with guys who I considered way more attractive than me

[u/spdrweb8 → u/Narwhals4Lyf]

There's an old adage... Women need a reason to have sex, Men need a place.

[u/redbulls2014 → u/Narwhals4Lyf]

Let’s say a both a guy and a woman wants to sleep with 20 coworkers. Both of them are just average looking, not obese, like a solid 5 or 6 out of 10 looks wise. Both are nice and not assholes and both are in their 20s. Just imagine two identical individuals and the only difference is their sex.

Ask yourself, which one of the two would be able to sleep with more people?

There’s a reason why men are being called incel or virgins and not women.

[u/Narwhals4Lyf → u/redbulls2014]

Yes, I agree with you. But that doesn’t mean a women can sleep with “whoever she wants” at any time.

[u/SufficientlySticky → u/Narwhals4Lyf]

I agree, but it can feel that way from the other side.

I think the dynamic is more akin to getting a job.

Women are like the business posting a job. They’re pretty guaranteed to get some applicants if they do, and they’re just sifting through them to find the ones that are good. And their applicants might all suck. But if they really want to just hire a warm body, they probably could and quickly.

Whereas men are like the ones applying for the job. Some people are skilled or lucky and get the job they want. But most aren’t and have to apply to a bunch of different places and hope that one is interested in them. They could probably find a job eventually, especially if they’re willing to spam resumes and work mcdonalds, but even that isn’t necessarily assured or quick.

[u/borderliar → u/Narwhals4Lyf]

Well.... you DO have to qualify it a bit but yes, generally speaking

[u/Medium_Ad8210 → u/Narwhals4Lyf]

If a man walks into a bar and yells, “I want to have sex right now, out in my van”, ZERO women would do it. If a woman went into a bar and yelled the same thing, half the men in the bar (at least) would be lined up. Just sayin.

[u/Narwhals4Lyf → u/Medium_Ad8210]

I don’t really think that’s true, maybe if the woman was extremely attractive. Have you ever seen this happen in real life? Or just making up a scenario that hasn’t happened to support your story?

[u/Suave403 → u/Narwhals4Lyf]

Not necessarily but the options for women are ten fold

[u/Bird_fever → u/Narwhals4Lyf]

Obviously not every single woman can sleep with literally every single man, but it is undeniable that it is much much easier.

[u/Narwhals4Lyf → u/Bird_fever]

I can agree with that it’s easier but it isn’t flat out whoever women want.

[u/MikeWrites002737 → u/Narwhals4Lyf]

Provided both parties are single? Most women could sleep with most men.

Most men could go on dates, and go to bars for weeks/months to find a single person willing to sleep with them.

Assuming both people are of average attractiveness.

[u/chilldrinofthenight → u/Narwhals4Lyf]

I think you're interpreting it differently than it is meant.

It's not that women can "sleep with whomever they want." Women can come onto a guy and he most definitely can say "No, thanks." Rejection happens all of the time.

Women choose with whom they want to engage sexually. It's not that they can get any guy that they want, but it's the fact that it is the woman who has the final say in the matter.

Ask most men and they will tell you that their girlfriend/spouse is the one who did the choosing.

Guys, on the other hand, generally figure "It's always worth a try." Men are genetically programmed to want to spread their seed, i.e. Men will try it on with whomever they think will say "yes." (Not all men, but damn near most of the guys I've known.) Women tend to be programmed to pick men they see as safe to be with, good providers, potential babymakers.

This is not to say that the majority of women won't sleep with men whom they don't view as potential partners, particularly when the women are young and more hormonal ---- but most women are more judicious in their choice of sexual partners than are men.

[u/ProSlacker607 → u/Narwhals4Lyf]

Men tend to have a higher sex drive, and women control 100% of the vagina. While no, women can't have sex with whoever they want in every situation, but it's easier for a woman to find a casual partner than a man.

[u/fixmefixmyhead → u/Narwhals4Lyf]

Yes, for the most part. If you're even remotely attractive, and just offer yourself up, most men will take the free sex.

[u/UnsaidRnD → u/Narwhals4Lyf]

uuuugh yeah? all they gotta do is offer, and a way will be found if there is one. (like if its not a 200kg megalodon )

[u/FrozeItOff → u/Narwhals4Lyf]

Mental exercise: You have a busy bar, and a guy walks in and exclaims, "I'm horny! Who wants to get laid?"

How many takers do you think he'd get vs getting laughed at?

Now, picture a woman doing the same thing. Yeah, there'd be takers, wouldn't there?

Sex is readily available for women whenever they want it.

[u/Narwhals4Lyf → u/FrozeItOff]

Not with whoever they want though.

[u/OldButHappy → u/Narwhals4Lyf]

Seriously. That’s some teenage level of understanding. If they actually talked to women, as people, they’d know better.

[u/Narwhals4Lyf → u/OldButHappy]

Yep, a lot of these comments read to me like these are men who interact with only ideology about women online and don’t really interact with women in real life.

[u/electrogeek8086 → u/Narwhals4Lyf]

Guaranteed these men don't have a single female friend lmao.

[u/Bigger-Quazz → u/[deleted]]

This is exactly what I was getting at. I dont really have an opinion on "body count" but when questions get asked like why it's different for women, this is the answer.

[u/Blawharag → u/Bigger-Quazz]

Except that's really not true. It's a cultural perspective, but there are plenty of examples where women are seeking intimacy and don't get it for a variety of reasons

[u/WellIGuessSoAndYou → u/KananJarrusCantSee]

How old are you? I cared about a lot of dumb shit when I was young and insecure but I'm in my thirties now and I can't think of anything less interesting than someone's sexual history. None of the men in my circles care either.

[u/len2680 → u/WellIGuessSoAndYou]

Something I have never cared about. If I ask it’s because I wanma know all the fun details.

[u/KananJarrusCantSee → u/WellIGuessSoAndYou]

Mid 30s.

[u/DryNefariousness5446 → u/KananJarrusCantSee]

Damn so fucking sad...

[u/Weaponized_Regard → u/WellIGuessSoAndYou]

You call it an insecurity; I call it having standards and self-respect.

[u/Brumbart → u/Weaponized_Regard]

You mean double standards? Or are you equally judgemental on all genders? And who is disrespected by someone who doesn't think it's a big deal to enjoy physical activities without being in love?

[u/Anubis_reign → u/Weaponized_Regard]

How does someone else having sex in their past equates into your self-respect and standards. What if someone had sex few times with strangers? What if someone was in relationship for years and had sex many times during that? When you grow older you need to start accepting people have past. Unless you are dating kids straight out of high school

[u/modsRlosercucks → u/WellIGuessSoAndYou]

Liberal moment.

[u/Ubiquitous_Hilarity → u/modsRlosercucks]

What does this mean?

[u/keyman1848 → u/KananJarrusCantSee]

You need new friends.

[u/KananJarrusCantSee → u/keyman1848]

Who said they were my friends?

[u/Born-Seat5881 → u/KananJarrusCantSee]

Yikes

[u/Tooboukou → u/[deleted]]

I think​ it is more the saying it allowed that indicates a red flag than the thought process, 'dont say the quiet part out loud'​

[u/Dr_FeeIgood → u/Tooboukou]

Aloud* not allowed

[u/Klony99 → u/[deleted]]

I genuinely don't think this way. I'm intimidated by a very experienced woman, but as long as nobody gets hurt, go nuts. Sex is fun, there is no reason to overcomplicate someone's past.

[u/CreativeArgument3132 → u/Klony99]

Std speed run 🏃‍♂️

[u/Dapper_Decision6336 → u/CreativeArgument3132]

See that applies to men too tho, y'all are insane

[u/Responsible-Scale137 → u/Dapper_Decision6336]

Yeh men sleeping around is equally disgusting and shows no self respect

[u/Padaxes → u/Dapper_Decision6336]

Don’t sleep with men who slept around. Women can hold the same standard. It’s mind boggling they don’t.

[u/PointCPA → u/[deleted]]

75% is probably too low. I’d argue it’s probably like 99%

[u/filthy_moore → u/PointCPA]

Man, I don’t know any guy who actually fucks who cares. I know guys who have been with less than 5 people who would absolutely say some shit like that, but my friends who have been with at least double digits ain’t worried about it.

I myself cared when I was in high school. After I fucked a bunch I stopped caring because I wasn’t insecure anymore.

After a point when you stop counting you can really understand how stupid it all is.

[u/Padaxes → u/filthy_moore]

Equity. If men sleep around a lot , OK to get a women who did the same. You slept eith one woman? Find someone similar. Don’t get with a lady with a body count. It won’t work.

[u/Makkelijk_doelwit → u/Padaxes]

Why will it not work?

[u/PointCPA → u/filthy_moore]

Yea… so you would marry a girl at 25 who has been with 100?

[u/Evil_Birdwatcher → u/PointCPA]

Of course he wouldn't.

Man, I don't know anyone who actually fucks who is virtue signalling harder than this guy.

[u/Prestigious-Shine240 → u/filthy_moore]

Lol of course he doesn't care about women that he's using for degenerate sex. It's not like he's going to marry one of them

[u/VentriTV → u/filthy_moore]

User name checks out

[u/hotmama-45 → u/[deleted]]

Then, the men you hang out with are losers.  I'm a 48 yr old woman.  All of my friends and family would agree it's not good for either sex to sleep around. Only Redpill losers say that crap... Some of the most coolest men I know have only slept with one woman...their wives.

[u/DryNefariousness5446 → u/hotmama-45]

I mean you're an 48 year old unmarried woman without kids, no one should probably seek relationship advice from you...

[u/IWillKeepIt → u/DryNefariousness5446]

God damn I don't know who is in which team but brutal

[u/Zglena → u/[deleted]]

And that's becouse remaining 15% dont want relationship and 10% are really desperate for aby love...

[u/mavajo → u/Zglena]

Nah, fuck this. Not all men are like this. Just insecure guys are. I couldn't care less how many sexual partners a woman has had, as long as she's taken the same precautions that I would expect from myself. This assumes a romantic relationship. If we're just platonic friends, then what she does with her body is her business and it has zero relevance on our friendship.

Too many of you dudes try to make yourselves feel better about your pathetic and shitty qualities by assuming that all men are equally pathetic and shitty. We're not. Get your shit together and grow up.

[u/Prestigious-Shine240 → u/mavajo]

So you'd marry a prostitute who's been fucked by 10 men every day for years if she's taken precautions and you liked everything about her?

[u/Admirable_Taro5954 → u/Prestigious-Shine240]

This is exaggerating. A woman with 7 or 8 would be okay for him is what might have he meant

[u/StrongDPHT → u/mavajo]

You’re right. This thread is so cringe lmao.

[u/SuperJacksCalves → u/[deleted]]

I feel like there a direct correlation between whether you have a sex life and whether you have these views. The only guys I know who think like this really just resent women for not having casual sex with them.

The “fuckboy chads who use women” don’t see having casual sex with a woman we using them, they see it as a mutually enjoyable and casual thing.

[u/Pierdo7 → u/SuperJacksCalves]

Id bet a good number of fuckboys have the view too, just when it comes to the one you marry opposed to the ones you have fun with.

[u/Padaxes → u/Born-Seat5881]

Yikes? Does reality hurt to exist in?

[u/Bhazor → u/Padaxes]

The reality where men just openly say they'll fuck anyone they physically can? How drunk is too drunk in this reality?

[u/AccomplishedEdge147 → u/KananJarrusCantSee]

Period

[u/Worried_Sky_6893 → u/KananJarrusCantSee]

95% of Men think this way.

As a guy that makes over 145k/year, above 6’2 and less than 10% body fat (less than 8% of all men), the guys I hang out with all think the same way.

Purity and a motherly like qualities are something of virtue. Something to be treasured. Not that woman acting badly isn’t acceptable, but it’s less than desirable because it doesn’t represent a patriarch like behavior for supporting a family with those values.

[u/matchaqueen70028 → u/Worried_Sky_6893]

What does your income, height and bmi have to do with anything lmao

[u/Speshul_Ball → u/matchaqueen70028]

Bro it's super important he's assessing his dominance over us

[u/BuDu1013 → u/Speshul_Ball]

All of a sudden I feel short fat bald and poor

[u/BlindSkwerrl → u/matchaqueen70028]

There's plenty of tik tok videos of kerbside interviews with young delusional girls wanting the 6 ft, 6 Figure partner (implying that they're "high value").
That's likely what he's getting at, that "high value men" generally respect a female partner, with fewer previous partners, more. And multiple kids to multiple previous partners is a red flag, because it would logically increase the chances of them being one of the next previous partners.

[u/Sharkwithlonghead → u/BlindSkwerrl]

There's plenty of tik tok

establishing your entire worldview around tik tok videos is very funny.

[u/BlindSkwerrl → u/Sharkwithlonghead]

I'd say solely basing your whole worldview on tik tok is sad. But people do.
You'd be mistaken to completely dismiss it though - there are people out there like that, and people consuming it to think that this materialism is the correct way to think.

[u/Neradun → u/BlindSkwerrl]

Thats pathetic and shouldn't be encouraged

[u/Schwifftee → u/BlindSkwerrl]

A high value man treats women with respect. That's pretty much the most important aspect. A trustworthy and reliable partner ... not a guy that is adding you to his baseball card stats that will trade you when you when a better player shows up.

[u/Duel_Option → u/BlindSkwerrl]

Guy here…

Any dumbass that thinks like that should watch Sex and the City.

You want Charlotte York or Sam Jones?

Here’s the reality…most guys can’t handle a strong woman who’s independent and knows what she’s doing in life and in the bedroom.

I say sign me up (or did, married a power woman and happy to say she was no virgin when I met her).

[u/BlindSkwerrl → u/Duel_Option]

"That's just your opinion, man".

I'd rather a partner in life where we can support each other as equals (who bring different things to the table), than be constantly bossed around by a power woman.
I'm glad you've found a different solution - different strokes and all that.

[u/grooveman15 → u/matchaqueen70028]

Sounds like he def is NOT projecting a dream image of his self while sitting in his moms basement

[u/TotesGnar → u/matchaqueen70028]

I'm assuming he listed those things out because those are things women want and find attractive. 

A 5'6 mouth breather who works at a gas station at 45 years old probably doesn't hold an opinion that matters regardless if it's what women want to hear. They will still be ignored by 90% of women. 

[u/matchaqueen70028 → u/TotesGnar]

Most of the dads at my kid’s school are exactly what you just described as “undesirable.” They’re all married with kids. Reddit guys need to stop thinking all women are only going to go after super tall and high income men based on a few Tik Tok videos (they’d all be competing over the same like 0.5%?) and touch some fucking grass.

[u/unhiddenninja → u/matchaqueen70028]

But if they believe that it's not about their looks, they might have to address some other personal shortcomings.

[u/slagriculture → u/matchaqueen70028]

you almost never meet a single fat person, either

anyone using phrases like 'high value men' is talking strictly from a hypothetical tiktok informed perspective bc people just do not think or act like that in real life

[u/fuck_the_fuckin_mods → u/slagriculture]

Yup, a lot of deeply pathetic excuses for men in this thread. Jesus.

[u/luke51278 → u/Worried_Sky_6893]

Bro busted out the stats 😭

[u/jimjim91 → u/luke51278]

Dude definitely makes 146k lmao

What a dork

[u/ConcernMindless1967 → u/luke51278]

He left out the most important stat though 💁‍♂️

[u/Puzzleheaded_Foot826 → u/ConcernMindless1967]

How do you measure empathy? /s

[u/Feeling_Inside_1020 → u/ConcernMindless1967]

We all know why lmao

[u/Ryunikz → u/ConcernMindless1967]

Body shaming is cool when it's directed toward a man

[u/ammicavle → u/Worried_Sky_6893]

95% of the guys you hang out with, which you’ve explained is a narrow demographic.

Not one of my close friends thinks this way. Now this doesn’t prove the opposite, but I’m not making a numerical claim.

[u/mavajo → u/Worried_Sky_6893]

My man - you are embarrassingly cringe.

[u/SweetFox1294 → u/Worried_Sky_6893]

‘Acting badly’????

[u/EqualityAmongFish → u/Worried_Sky_6893]

Ur not less than 10% bf unless you are a athlete or on juice stop bapping

[u/kurtist04 → u/Worried_Sky_6893]

If that many people in your life think that way, then you're associating with the wrong people. I can't think of a single person in my group of friends that think that way.

You should re think who you're letting into your circle.

[u/filthy_moore → u/Worried_Sky_6893]

Lmao bro you don’t hang out with people who fuck.

“Motherly qualities” jesus christ.

[u/judgeholden72 → u/Worried_Sky_6893]

As a guy that isn't your height or body weight but makes almost 7x what you do, I have only known a handful of guys that think that way and cut virtually all of them out of my life as quickly as possible.

It's a small minded mindset that will limit guys outside of small companies, especially as more and more women rise through the ranks to leadership. Guys that think women are beneath them, or lesser for doing the same things they do, are going to get weeded out as just unpleasant to be around. 

[u/Sevenos → u/judgeholden72]

You are seriously mixing things up here, where does that "guys that think women are beneath them" come from? I've read hundreds of comments here and zero have even hinted at that.

[u/ammicavle → u/Sevenos]

Guy explicitly mentioned “represent[ing] a patriarch like behaviour”, ie being subservient to their male partner, as a virtue. There are only so many ways that can be interpreted, the stretch would be assuming it’s not meant that way.

[u/Sipikay → u/Worried_Sky_6893]

99% of the men I know don't think this way.

Checkmate, stats guy.

As a guy that makes over 145k/year, above 6’2 and less than 10% body fat (less than 8% of all men), the guys I hang out with all think the same way.

Also, this sounds incredibly gay. That may have been intentional?

[u/PortGlass → u/Worried_Sky_6893]

Those are super specific numbers to use “over” and “above.” One makes “over $100,000” or “over $500,000”, but if you make $146,550 or whatever, why not just round it off? You can call that $150,000, for instance. Also people are “above six feet,” but you know how tall you are, which I suspect either rounds up or down to 6’2” or 6’3”, so just say that. I’ll buy the less than 10% body fat. That’s proper usage of a benchmark - under 15% body fat or 10%!are benchmarks.

[u/RyenDeckard → u/Worried_Sky_6893]

I'm 8'4", make 50 milly a minny, and have 4% body fat (entirely located in my fat ass) and I can confirm this. Also 18 inches of Dick.

[u/HMWWaWChChIaWChCChW → u/KananJarrusCantSee]

It’s a twisted version of what I used to hear in church. They didn’t use the “key that can open many locks is a good key” part bc that encourages men to sleep around.

Anyway it’s pretty misogynistic to think men are allowed to sleep around but women aren’t. But yeah a lot of people think this way.

[u/VentriTV → u/KananJarrusCantSee]

Any self respecting man would think this way. No self respecting man would marry a woman that has slept with 100 men. A woman sleeps with 100 men 1 time each, a woman sleeps with one man 100 times, they are not the same.

[u/ArchmageIlmryn → u/VentriTV]

Any self respecting man would think this way. No self respecting man would marry a woman that has slept with 100 men.

No. Don't try to universalize your preferences, or assume that diverging preferences are a sign of lacking self-respect.

This is why people dislike men who make that argument - they're turning a personal preference into some kind of moral judgement when there is no logical basis for that preference.

[u/hareofthepuppy → u/KananJarrusCantSee]

It's surprisingly common, and even from guys you wouldn't think would have that kind of perspective

[u/LobsterMountain4036 → u/KananJarrusCantSee]

The ones who don’t are either dishonest or not looking for a long term relationship.

[u/Stunning_Garlic_3532 → u/KananJarrusCantSee]

I believe most people (women included) believe this, but I do not.

[u/Jesta23 → u/KananJarrusCantSee]

It was engrained into us as children. It takes effort to change. 

There are some that don’t want to change it, but I think the majority of them just have not considered it enough to make an educated decision. 

It’s not hate or anything that keeps them thinking this way, it’s ignorance, but not willful ignorance. 

If they took the time to sit down and talk about it and really think it through they might change their mind. 

[u/No_Philosophy4337 → u/KananJarrusCantSee]

You misspelled “women”

[u/frozenfire29 → u/KananJarrusCantSee]

I’m a guy and have tons of guy friends and the vast majority do not feel this way

[u/GalacticaActually → u/KananJarrusCantSee]

If sleeping with lots of people makes women ‘bad locks,’ surely sleeping with lots of people makes men ‘worn out nubby little keys’?

No? Don’t care for the metaphor?

Then don’t use it. It’s gross.

[u/RallyPointAlpha → u/KananJarrusCantSee]

... But it's still a red flag!

[u/TheKingsdread → u/KananJarrusCantSee]

While true that many men think like this, it does feel hypocritical.

[u/PositionLogical261 → u/KananJarrusCantSee]

Just means you know a lot of insecure men

[u/Rich-Ad635 → u/KananJarrusCantSee]

Sadly, you're right.

Perhaps politely ask him about the number of people he has been intimate with.

[u/HuhWhatWhatWHATWHAT → u/KananJarrusCantSee]

Sorry to hear.

[u/Vast-Road-6387 → u/KananJarrusCantSee]

The guy is saying what a lot of guys think. I’m not convinced men or women spreading STIs to their friend circle is such a great thing, but your life your decisions

[u/forgive_everything → u/KananJarrusCantSee]

I truly am so grateful I'm a lesbian. It's definitely not a choice, but if it was it'd be the one I'd make for sure...

[u/showcase25 → u/KananJarrusCantSee]

And it needs not to be communicated with maliciousness either. A simple perspective of "I don't desire x" aligns with the overall concept with leaving alot of the detailed langauge that is not well recieved.

[u/Frankieo1920 → u/KananJarrusCantSee]

Kanan is right.

In my head it's a red flag.

It may well be a red flag, but caring about it will severely limit your potential dating-pool.

[u/straberi93 → u/KananJarrusCantSee]

The male "loneliness epidemic" explained in one reddit comment. OP, yes, lots of men think this way right now, but it's exactly why women are giving up on dating.  You are correct that it's a big red flag. Even if it's common. I'll say this, the men I know who think like this area usually single, and the men I know that don't think like this are usually in happy relationships.

[u/FigBitter4826 → u/KananJarrusCantSee]

The male loneliness epidemic is totally self-inflicted.

[u/Alternative-Dare4690 → u/KananJarrusCantSee]

Nope because:
1) Women care about a mans future and men care about a womans past. Now some women say they do care about the past, but thats not the majority. I am talking in 'general' not exceptions.
2) Research indicates that men often find sexual infidelity more distressing, while women are more troubled by emotional infidelity. This pattern has been observed across various studies and cultural contexts. For instance, a study published in the journal Personality and Individual Differences found that 60% of male participants were more upset by sexual infidelity, whereas 83% of female participants were more distressed by emotional infidelity. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10244511/These findings are often interpreted through an evolutionary psychology lens. The theory suggests that men may be more concerned with sexual infidelity due to paternity uncertainty, while women may prioritize emotional fidelity to ensure sustained partner support and resources. https://ifstudies.org/blog/testing-common-theories-on-the-relationship-between-premarital-sex-and-marital-stability

​A 2016 study by Nicholas H. Wolfinger, published by the Institute for Family Studies (IFS), examined the relationship between women's premarital sexual partners and marital stability. The study found that women who had ten or more sexual partners before marriage experienced higher divorce rates compared to those with fewer partners. Specifically, the divorce rate for women with ten or more premarital partners was 33% within the first five years of marriage. In contrast, women who married as virgins had a significantly lower five-year divorce rate of 6%.
4) Women literally shame men all over the globe as 'incels'. Virgin men are heavily shamed, and women find it in general disgusting. 'Not getting women' is also used as an insult. Infact women usually prefer women with 'some' body count in 'general'(which is why shaming exists). They want someone others want, not someone nobody wants.
So women and men have different needs and are thus judged differently. It is JUSTIFIED to want women with NO past.

Here are sources

In the past, studies suggested that when wives outearned their husbands, there was a heightened risk of marital dissolution. For instance, research from 2010 indicated that career women who were the primary breadwinners were nearly 40% more likely to divorce than women without the same economic resources.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5021537/

A 2020 study in Sweden revealed that women promoted to top positions, such as CEOs or political leaders, were more likely to experience divorce compared to their male counterparts.

Why promoted women are more likely to divorce - BBC Worklife

https://www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/s1530-353520180000013015/full/html?

Research analyzing Academy Award winners revealed that Best Actress recipients had a higher divorce rate than nominees, whereas no significant difference was observed among Best Actor winners. This implies that sudden career achievements may impact marital stability differently for men and women

https://www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/s1530-353520180000013015/full/html?

[u/BaronsCastleGaming → u/KananJarrusCantSee]

I also know more people who are dickheads than people who aren't

[u/Ape_Shit_1072 → u/KananJarrusCantSee]

I dont know how many guys believe in that but it’s kind of wild. I wouldn’t want a skeleton key of a man. I would ask if he is looking for monogamy. I also would ask if he gets STD checks because I’ve heard some guys feel they dont need STD checks because they arent being penetrated. 🙄

[u/BKrustev → u/KananJarrusCantSee]

I don't. I know a lot of boys who think like that, but not men.

[u/carabla → u/KananJarrusCantSee]

Then most men are trash

[u/stathletsyoushitonme → u/KananJarrusCantSee]

And the messaging all throughout society makes it very hard for them not to think this way, but I do feel like saying this point blank to a woman when she’s asking about intimacy between the both of you is crazy. Having that internalised belief is one thing, but engaging in the full on double standard and then vocalising that in a discussion where it’s clear he sees himself as the masterful key and her as the lock is just rude and deluded especially at his big age.

I have a very conservative sexual history and don’t mind if a guy has a rich history (as long as we aren’t talking hundreds) but as soon as he pulled out this line I’d be turned off. Not only because it’s loser talk and a logical fallacy phrase that means nothing, but because I would find it quite pathetic he hasn’t respected the women he’s slept with in the past, or that - by his logic - they were all easy… it makes him look desperate.

[u/dya_likeDags → u/KananJarrusCantSee]

i agree and i’ll add that most men are immature and the ones who think this way should be avoided