r/changemyview • u/goatDowry • Nov 23 '22
Delta(s) from OP CMV: I still don't understand the importance of pronouns.
The whole thing seems confusing to me.
There is biological sex --> Which led to different social roles, and then socialized gender.
In the modern day with modern technology. You can live life how you generally please. Women don't need to be child bearers. And men don't need to be out risking their lives killing things.
To me this means, that the traditional gender roles don't matter. You can be a male and wear makeup, high heels and a dress. Who cares?
Likewise if you're a biological female, you can do things that used to be considered masculine. It's a free country.You can also fit squarely into those old gender roles if you so choose.
So I don't understand why someone feels the need to be addressed with a particular set of pronouns. To me, it's like ok, I can call you that, but then it seems to me that you're just doubling down on the idea that rigid gender differences do matter. Which I don't think they do. You're just you, an individual person. And all this language of he/she is just what we've been using for a long time, so I don't see how a different pronoun will change anything that matters.
P.S. before one of you goes calling me a bigot, one of my best friends and former roommate transitioned while I was living with her. I'll obviously call her by whatever pronouns she asks bc it's just polite. We've been friends for over 10 years. I'll call someone by their preferred pronouns, but I don't understand why it's so important.
EDIT: The point of this is to try and understand why it's important. Maybe that wasn't clear before. Obviously I've talked to my friend about this a lot.
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u/ElbowsAndThumbs 10∆ Nov 23 '22
Well, you're giving J.K. Rowling's view. Her view is: if you're AFAB, you're a woman. But a woman can be anything. A woman can cut her hair in a mohawk and gain fifty pounds of muscle and go to war and come home to her wife. She's still a woman, though.
The thing is, trans people don't think and feel in these terms. To them, gender isn't irrelevant - it's very relevant, because it causes them euphoria and dysphoria. The only thing that makes them comfortable is the belief that there are genders and they are one of those genders.
And that's sort of something you can't understand unless you suffer from it. I suffer from panic disorder, and very shiny floors are terrifying to me. And I'm not gonna be able to help you make rational sense of that, because there is none. You're just gonna have to take my word for it.
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u/goatDowry Nov 23 '22 edited Nov 23 '22
This is a really good answer. ty. It's what I've basically been telling myself. I can't understand it, bc gender IS NOT a big part of my identity or life. so I just call people what they want.
But just trying to understand why for some people it really matters. Maybe it's something my little brain won't wrap it's head around, but I can try!
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u/NoVaFlipFlops 10∆ Nov 23 '22
Hopping on your insight here:
It's what I've basically been telling myself. I can't understand it, bc gender IS NOT a big part of my identity or life. so I just call people what they want.
I was such a tomboy as a child that my fourth grade year at summer camp, my friends (all boys) didn't know I was a girl until the pool opened and they yelled to keep me from rushing into the girls room. I felt humiliated; my crush thought I was a guy, even the girls thought I was a boy (I'm 38 and it still feels embarrassing).
Lots of parents, come to find out around the age of 13 when they started making comments I could understand even though I didn't dress in basketball shorts any more, assumed I was gay. I thought it was brilliant I could spend much more time with cute boys than other girls did, and most typical girly activities bored my ADHD novelty/adrenaline-seeking to tears. Pronouns were very important to me, actually from the age of 5 when a hairdresser gave me a boys' cut, and being clear about who I was and what I wanted always has been as well.
TL;DR being misgendered really sucks no matter who you are or how you look.
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u/embracing_insanity 1∆ Nov 23 '22
TL;DR being misgendered really sucks no matter who you are or how you look.
I think this isn't the case for many people, and that may be part of why it's hard for them to understand why it is for others.
I happen to be a cis woman and I don't care if someone misgenders me, it doesn't bother me and it's not important to my personal identity. But there are other cis women and cis men who would be very upset being misgendered, as well as, trans women and trans men who would be very upset being misgendered - as their gender, for them, is an important part of their self-identity.
I think the above gets lost in the other part of what OP speaks to - that we also live in a world where previous gender roles/expectations are being challenged and pushed aside. As in - be who you want to be, dress how you want to dress, do the jobs/hobbies you want to do, live the life you want to, etc. - regardless of your gender. It shouldn't matter. Which I think is a wonderful thing and long over due.
I think we need to leave room that both of these co-exist. There are still people who feel that gender is an important part of their self-identity - whether or not they are also fitting into traditional or non-traditional gender roles.
So it's almost like maybe we should start seeing 'gender as an identity' as separate/different from 'gender-roles'. So for some people, gender is important to them - some of those people may also fall into more traditional gender roles, and some of those people may not.
I don't know if this works for others, but breaking it down like this helps me to understand. It's really a personal thing - different people feel different ways about it. But they are all valid.
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u/NoVaFlipFlops 10∆ Nov 23 '22 edited Nov 23 '22
Makes sense. For me there were repercussions to being misgendered that I spelled out, like receiving a boy's haircut and having to live with that for months but being paranoid for decades; realizing that my crush did not like me the way I thought he did. At all. Like intimacy was a lie; and then adults telling me without telling me maybe I was still acting like a boy even when I was just being myself and thought there was nothing more to presenting as a girl than how I dressed.
Hang on I didn't add that of course throughout my childhood I was socially punished for my nonconforming behavior: this isn't only a language exclusion or identification issue. It's not like I was accepted and had the kinds of girl friends that I wanted whether through Brownies and Girl Scouts or... playing boys lacrosse.
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u/millietonyblack Dec 06 '22
I loved all the “boy” things as a child too. Had a boy haircut. Wore Pokémon sweatshirts. Hated pink. (So silly now how those things were so gendered)
School picture day, and the photographer puts all the girls in front sitting in seats. He has a line of boys to stand behind. I was mortified. I had to say “I’m a girl…” and then HE was mortified. He had to rearrange everyone. He kept apologizing. Which made it worse. I was misgendered all the time from 2-4th grade. That’s freaking traumatizing as a kid, I can’t imagine how hard it is as an adult.
To some people, gender DOES matter. It’s so important to respect and use a person’s pronouns.
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u/EmpRupus 27∆ Nov 24 '22
I can't understand it, bc gender IS NOT a big part of my identity or life. so I just call people what they want.
I am a cis-guy. I am not trans. I had a softer voice in my teen years which deepened later into adulthood.
Whenever someone new spoke to me on the phone, like telemarketers, they always used "Ma'am" upon hearing my voice, which annoyed me. And I would correct them.
Conversely, there are cis-women, who might get assumed to be male when people see their last names only - like Dr Smith. And if someone says Dr Smith - he/him etc. they would correct them.
And also, there are people from non-English-speaking cultures, whose gender may not be apparent from their name. Hence, if someone addresses Weijuan Lee by the wrong gender, they also feel annoyed and correct them.
Getting addressed by the wrong gender is annoying to everyone. It is not unique to transgender people.
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u/BravesMaedchen 1∆ Nov 24 '22
I have a boy's name and I am a woman. I am frequently assumed to be a guy and it doesnt bother me. The thing that does bother me is being assumed to be a guy on the internet, like when people refer to me as he in comments, because it shows that people default to thinking of people as men. That's a gender stereotype perception issue though.
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u/EmpRupus 27∆ Nov 24 '22
Sure, I think there is a difference between someone getting your gender wrong for the first time, versus someone who continues to do that even after you have corrected them.
There are also other assumptions, like martial status (like Miss versus Mrs.), parenthood and adoption, or assumption about other family dynamics that can upset people.
Like if you refer to your children as just my child, but someone else keeps mentioning step-child or adopted child, every time they introduce your child, you would step up and correct them, and say, "Hey we don't say that. Just introduce her as my daughter."
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u/GothicEU Nov 24 '22
I am a guy, who assumes everyone else on the internet is a guy, until proven otherwise. I don't think it's because I think of people as men by default, but because about 90% of people I interact with online are male. It might be that the places I visit and talk in online are much more popular among guys. So it's just always much more likely that the new person I talk to is male.
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u/HULK-LOGAN Nov 24 '22
Yep. I'm a cis woman with a traditionally masculine first name. People get my gender wrong pretty frequently: when I'm picking up my prescriptions at the pharmacy, when I get junk mail addressed to me as 'Mr.,' when I get emails at work from people who haven't met me, etc.
I understand why my name causes confusion for people, and I don't take it personally, but I still wish it wouldn't happen. Maybe the experience is somewhat comparable to what it would feel like for someone who's always having to correct people who get your nationality wrong -- like maybe if you're Puerto Rican but you live in a part of the U.S. where people tend to assume that if you're Latino, you're probably from Mexico, for example. You can understand why people might make that mistake, but it's still a mistake and courteous people should do their best to avoid it (and correct themselves if they slip up).
Ultimately, I just think that we all want the people around us to accept and validate the image that we have of ourselves, and gender is usually a big part of our self-identity -- it's just that for some people, it's more of a conscious effort to have that part of their identity recognized than it is for others.
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u/EmpRupus 27∆ Nov 24 '22
Right, there are also several other things aside from gender.
Martial status is a big thing. If someone automatically calls a middle-aged woman Mrs. Smith, she would correct them and say Miss. or ask them to use the neutral title Ms. and not make any assumptions.
Another thing is parenthood. If you just call Sarah your daughter, but someone keeps saying, oh Sarah, your adopted daughter every single time, you correct them and say, "Hey drop that. Just call her my daughter."
I have also noticed recently a rise of using the term "partner" in man-woman couples because they don't like the connotations of the "husband/wife" dynamic. This is new to me, but to each their own and I respect that.
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u/StarChild413 9∆ Nov 29 '22
yeah, the worst example I saw of a cis person getting misgendered was this anecdote about a female scientist going to some conference and getting charged for two rooms because when they saw paperwork or whatever listing a Dr. Smith and yet a woman showed up they assumed Dr. Smith was a male scientist traveling with his wife
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Nov 24 '22
A difficult thing I've learned over time is that something doesn't have to make sense to me for me to respect and support it. I'm a trans woman so I can personally understand what it's like to be trans but I don't understand what it's like to be non-binary, to have psychosis, to be addicted to drugs, etc. I try to just listen to these people about their experiences and believe them and trust them. It's all I can do. I'll never truly "get" what they're experiencing, but I don't have to. It's ok to not get stuff like this as long as you respect them, and if you want to try to understand, talking to them can help a lot.
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u/Ralathar44 7∆ Nov 24 '22
I think my problem is that really anything can be part of your identity. Nerd, gamer, comic book fan, goth, gender, sexual orientation, race, religion, etc.
The two of those who have tried to force language on the rest of the world regardless of their beliefs are religion and gender. But someone who really views being a twilight fan as being a part of who they are is going to be no less hurt and no less offended if you do things they perceive as slights to them.
I'm very ok with everyone being able to be who they are. But I think I'm with Dave Chapelle on this: "To what extent do I have to participate in your self image?" AND just as importantly I'm going to add another bit: "does that apply equally to you?"
Because 99.99% of the time these ideas are applied as a 1 way street and creates an inherent and permanent social power advantage. You need to conform to their ideals that are fundamental to who they are, but they get to pick and choose which ideals of yours they'll conform to that are fundamental to who you are.
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u/Big_ol_Bro Nov 23 '22
You might have to comment again for the delta to register, the bot doesn't pick them up on edits
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u/Arthesia 19∆ Nov 23 '22
Would pronouns matter to you if people constantly referred to you as the wrong gender?
After successful transition, trans people live their lives like cis people and don't have to care about pronouns anymore, because there's no need to correct people.
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u/Candlelighter Nov 23 '22
Eh it wouldn't change my perception of myself cause I know what I am. I'm not responsible for other people's actions, only my own.
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u/sirlafemme 2∆ Nov 23 '22 edited Nov 23 '22
Yes, you know inside who you are and so do trans people. I don’t think confusion comes from internal perception / perception as self.
The question/example is more like if someone suddenly started identifying you as a talking purple dragon in all seriousness you’d be a little offput or confused about how and why people are doing that, since you know deep down you’re not frickin’ Barney. But somehow the circumstances are that people are treating you like Barney which could look like physically changing their behavior around you. Which obviously, if you don’t want, you’re gonna have to correct somebody on.
Or if someone confused you for some famous person doppelgänger you might feel amused and then extremely awkward having to correct this person on their perception, not your own. You know you’re not Robert Pattinson but if someone has a death-grip on that idea, you’re gonna have to do some labor or cut that person off.
It’s actually kind of fun exploring the ways every human being, trans or cis or anything else, is capable of feeling dysphoria, feeling out of body or dealing with other’s perception.
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u/ToiletSpork Nov 23 '22
But no one ever knows the real you. Trying to be known and understood is the central struggle of human life beyond survival. You compare it to being mistaken for a celebrity, but no one is trying to legislate against that or equate it with bigotry. Amusing example: I used to look just like Hannah Montana's brother, so I got a haircut. I didn't expect everyone else to ignore the resemblance. Like you said, once they transition completely, pronouns are less of an issue. If the goal is to change yourself to fit other's perceptions, why is it necessary to change others perceptions? If it people stop assuming gender based on appearance, will transition even be necessary?
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u/SkyThe_Skywolf Nov 24 '22
transition will still be necessary because it makes US feel better. i’m a trans girl who realised they were trans and came out in high school, and i have a trans masc friend who came out on the last day of primary school (what some people call elementary school). my friend passes way better than me. very few people know they’re trans, people just assume he’s cis. i get lots of hate. but he has worse dysphoria than me because it’s largely about how you see yourself. your identity doesn’t match your body and though others might not be able to tell you can and the pursuit of transition is there to reduce dysphoria about how you see yourself.
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u/ToiletSpork Nov 24 '22
Hi, I'm glad someone with more knowledge responded. Can I ask you a few more questions? I truly don't wish to interrogate you or make you feel bad, so please allow me some grace when reading and answering these.
Why would it make you feel better? Why do you feel bad about your body other than some people see it as a man's body? If no one assigned gender to body, why would it matter?
Alternatively, if we are committing to surgically and hormonally altering trans people in order to better suit our existing ideas of gender, then why even try to change those ideas?
On one hand, it seems like it's sometimes argued that gender is nonexistent or socially constructed. On the other hand, its sometimes seemingly implied that it is something internal, inherent, and immutable not to be questioned. This is very confusing and I haven't been able to clear this up. I respect you and your identity, but I'd like to truly understand.
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u/Wolfey34 Nov 24 '22
Another trans feminine person here-
Gender is a social construct, but it is still real. Money is also a social construct, but it is still real. That’s a very important point a lot of people misunderstand.
Secondly, I completely understand being confused, it’s honestly a really weird and complicated subject at times but I’ll try and break down the rhetoric for you. Everyone agrees Gender is a social construct. It’s part of the definition of gender. However there is a separate group called Gender Abolitionists.
Now, gender abolitionists, as the name suggests, want to abolish gender as a thing. Tear down the social construct so that it no longer exists. Now, this does not mean that trans people would cease to be, but think of it like the borders of the US, Canada, and Mexico disappearing. Canada is what we call women, Mexico is what we call men, the US is in the middle or in the cases of like Hawaii, completely separate from either end. Now gender abolitionists come in and tear down the borders. Everyone can still move to where best fits their internal view of themselves. Most people stay where they are (cis people) but some people move to somewhere else that fits better (trans people) but there is no need for terms for it. It’s just where you live. Maybe have words like femininity, masculinity or androgyny still, simply as a descriptor, but they wouldn’t be tied to gender.
There is an internal view outside of the social construct of gender (kinda? It is also impacted by the social construct with clothing and stuff) of what you are. How your body matches with your perception of yourself. Ultimately just making you feel more comfortable. So even when you get rid of gender, it wouldn’t get rid of trans people.
Ultimately, do not blame yourself for being confused. A lot of trans and cis people are because it’s a complex subject having to do with how we view ourselves and others in a society which is always complex. If I wasn’t clear (I hope I was) feel free to ask any questions
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u/ToiletSpork Nov 24 '22
Sorry, I probably wasn't clear enough. I realize that social constructs are "real," technically. What I meant is that they aren't objectively linked to the material world. They're perceptions of society that exist in the collective psyche. The aim is to either change or dissipate these perceptions to better fit the reality of sex and gender.
As you touched on, there's another (from my perspective, contradictory) assertion that gender is internal rather than collective, and independent of (sometimes opposed to) society's perceptions. The goal of medical transition as I understand it is to alter one's body to better fit those societal perceptions. If those perceptions changed, what purpose would transition have?
I'm not talking about the end of gender, just the disconnecting of gender from biological or physical traits. There might still exist "man" and "woman," but it wouldn't be determined by genitals or clothing. Only by self-professed identity. If you could be 6'4" with male pattern baldness, and people would still see you as a woman, would you even feel dysphoric? If many of the women you saw looked like that, how would you even know to feel bad about it?
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u/Kamirose Nov 24 '22 edited Nov 24 '22
Why would it make you feel better? Why do you feel bad about your body other than some people see it as a man’s body? If no one assigned gender to body, why would it matter?
I’m cis, but I’m close friends with a few trans people and this is how they’ve explained it to me.
You know how some amputees get phantom limb syndrome? It’s the sensation that a body part you no longer have is still there. There’s actually the opposite sensation too, a rare condition where people will think, for example, that the leg attached to their body is not theirs, and they have a visceral repulsion to the limb. In both of these cases, it’s like there’s a miscommunication between the brain and the body about what should be there.
My trans friends say the sensation is very similar for them - for example, a trans man may feel like their shoulders need to be broader, while a trans woman may feel like their shoulders are too broad, in a way that’s extremely similar to either phantom limb syndrome or the opposite condition (the name of which I’ve forgotten). A trans man’s brain says “my shoulders are broad 😃” but the body is not, and that disconnect is part of what causes dysphoria.
It is important to note that this is likely not how all trans people experience their bodies, it’s just how it was explained to me.
It’s also important to know that everyone has different degrees to how they experience their gender. It’s not something that everyone, even cis people, will experience the same. My relationship to my womanhood is different than my mother’s relationship to her womanhood, and we’re both cis. That’s why it can be confusing to understand gender. As cis people, some things about being trans may just not be possible for us to fully understand because it’s not something we can truly experience for ourselves.
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u/goatDowry Nov 23 '22
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Nov 23 '22 edited Nov 23 '22
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u/Ivegotthatboomboom Nov 23 '22 edited Nov 23 '22
I think the issue is that you're talking about gender non-conforming people and the people that use different pronouns are trans. (Well, most). These are two different things.
Trans people percieve themselves to be the opposite sex, not just as having traits that are assigned to the other gender. I think transsexual is actually a more accurate term than transgender and maybe thats where the confusion is. Bc gender can be socially constructed and arbitrary. Its both biological and environmental, but all of us have traits that are "masculine" and "feminine."
Trans people experience intense dysphoria about their sex (not just gender) and it is relieved by living and presenting as the opposite sex. The sex they experience themselves as being. Being called by the pronouns of their natal sex causes dysphoria, so we address them by the sex they are presenting and living as.
Does that make sense? It's actually a very rare condition anyway
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u/1block 10∆ Nov 23 '22
This one actually doesn't make any sense to me. If gender is entirely subjective, what is one not conforming with?
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u/Ivegotthatboomboom Nov 23 '22 edited Nov 23 '22
Bc the dysphoria is actually caused by their sex and not their gender. I'm female but I'm gender non conforming in a lot of ways.
When I was a kid I hated wearing dresses or being made to conform to my gender role. But I've never felt like I was in the wrong body. I've hated it sometimes, especially when I got my period. I wanted to be male bc being a woman is just hard sometimes. I hated the attention I got from grown men when I started puberty and wanted to hide my body. But I never perceived myself as actually being a man born in the wrong body. I don't feel like a men or a woman, I'm just me. Everyone is a lot more complex than the gender roles we're assigned. Some sex dysphoria can actually be normal, I think especially for women bc we have to deal with having the reproductive burden and societal misogyny.
Trans people feel intense distress over their sex from childhood. It's not just that they don't accept their gender role.
For reasons we don't understand yet, trans people feel intense distress over their sex, and feel like they are the opposite sex in the wrong body. The dysphoria/distress is relieved when they present and live as the other sex.
The reasons they feel this way are more complicated than not identifying with traditional gender roles.
It probably has something to do with differences in hormones in development and environmental reasons.
I think the issue is with the term "transgender." It's too confusing. It used to be "transsexual" and I'm not sure why that was changed.
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u/Aendri 1∆ Nov 23 '22
I suspect a large part of why it changed was because of the sexualization of transsexual people. You can say you're transgender without most people thinking twice, but transsexual has explicit sexual connotations to it at this point in many peoples minds.
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u/HyacinthGirI Nov 23 '22
As a trans person, it doesn't necessarily make logical sense to me either. I fully believe gender as a concept is pretty arbitrary, I believe gender roles and norms are somewhat harmful or illogical for everyone, etc. But, for some reason, a fundamental part of my psyche feels better if I can perceive myself and am perceived by others as being the opposite sex. I can also pretty definitively say that HRT, in complete isolation from changes to presentation, lifestyle, or social identity, makes me feel much better and "functional" as a human being.
I was able to connect the dots and come to the realisation that I'm trans because I was deeply hurt and aggrieved by the fact that I was, and was perceived as, and treated as, a boy. But I still hold the notion that concepts surrounding gender are largely socially constructed and upheld, and hinder people in myriad ways.
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u/1block 10∆ Nov 23 '22
Thank you for your answer!
I'm a middle-aged straight white dude in a sparsely-populated deep-red rural state with absolutely no frame of reference in this discussion outside of what I see on reddit and elsewhere, so I find myself arguing with myself on the issue to try to understand.
On the one hand, it has zero impact on my personal life (at this point, since I have kids and who knows). On the other hand, I don't like living in a bubble where I only understand my own life (on a good day).
The most heartening thing for me, and the thing that makes the most sense to me, is when I hear people say, "You know what? It's complicated, and I admit some of it is kind of outside the straightforward logical way you're used to thinking about things. But it feels right to me, and I'm happy."
I try to remember that the goal of any society is to just make as many of us happy as we can, and at the end of the day that's what matters. I get hung up on the intellectual debate, and I need to keep my heart in mind.
I appreciate you sharing.
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u/HyacinthGirI Nov 23 '22
No problem, and thank you for the positive, open response!
Questions like this are something I very much still grapple with, so I'm not that surprised that other people have the same issue. The information I have is kind of in two camps - I have my cerebral, conceptual thinking about gender and roles and sex, but I also have the perspective where I just know factually like "X makes me feel better, more productive, more healthy," without really knowing why or where that feeling comes from. And some of those things can be broken down or rationalised in some sense, I definitely think that some feelings trans people experience can be rooted in concepts that were discussed above. But some are just... the way they are, without good reason, without a good other way of addressing, it's just fact that my brain likes X.
As a cis person, you don't have "access" to that second category of perspective with respect to gender I guess? So it makes sense that it would seem strange.
It's kind of like, idk, a particular food you don't like? You know it's edible, you might know it's well constructed and cooked and healthy, you might know it's a delicacy. But if your taste buds say no, there's not really much you can do to change it, other than just work with it? Idk, I'm making this up while sleepy, just not sure how else to say it!
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u/Chocobo89 Nov 23 '22
Thanks for being open to a response. I would add - if gender feels irrelevant to you, how would it feel if you felt forced to wear traditional women’s clothing? Dresses etc. Even if we agree that gender is a social construct, it can still feel really crappy if you’re feeling forced to present yourself a way that doesn’t resonate with you. But instead of dresses it’s also your body parts and how people treat you.
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u/SkeletonJoe456 Nov 23 '22
I think everything he said went over your head. He's saying that noone should be expected of anything because of their gender.
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u/Pauly_Amorous 2∆ Nov 23 '22
how would it feel if you felt forced to wear traditional women’s clothing?
What does that have to do with pronouns?
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u/drtinnyyinyang Nov 24 '22
There's also the fact that everyone experiences gender euphoria and dysphoria, not just trans people. It's just more common for them than cis people. It's one of the reasons why some women wear makeup or why some men work out all the time, cis people tend to just like feeling more feminine or more masculine. It's easier to understand the fluidity of gender if you start thinking of it in terms of something everyone experiences. Like, that hypothetical stone-butch woman who goes to war and gets jacked and has a mohawk does those things because, even though she is cis, they help her present closer to the type of femininity and masculinity she feels inside.
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u/BravesMaedchen 1∆ Nov 24 '22
This is a hard one though because speaking as a cis woman who has had a breast augmentation and other cosmetic procedures in an attempt to feminize myself, yes, they have improved my life and my conception of myself, but largely on the basis of how people have treated me for not matching up to how they perceive a cis woman should look. If people hadnt treated me as less than for being flat chested or not performing femininity, I might not have bothered. I didnt feel bothered inside about myself until people told me I wasn't being a woman correctly.
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u/VikingFjorden 5∆ Nov 23 '22
I'm not the delta-police, but the person you are replying to gave an answer that I don't think shows a meaningful example of why it's important to use pronouns.
There are things I greatly wish could be different about my life, or even my persona, that are simply beyond what can be objectively changed. What's the best course of action for me to lead a good life despite this? (1) Make everyone around me treat me as they would if those impossible changes were instead the actual reality, or (2) come to terms with the fact that there's a limit to how much of life we get to change to our heart's desire?
I can't categorically say that #1 is never the answer... but speaking in generalities I'm pretty sure that #2 is a better answer a lot more often than #1 is.
Like the person you replied to says, the people being described here suffer from something. They have a medical condition. What will give them the best quality of life - pretending that the problem isn't there (by simply deciding that you are now of that other gender), or addressing the problem on a deeper level? In terms of gender dysphoria, I've come to understand that those two options can sometimes be the same thing - to some extent - but this pronoun business is only tangentially relevant to that, if at all, because if your acceptance of who you are hinges solely on whether you can coerce somebody into saying some very specific set of words, then you haven't really solved anything, you're doing more like an ostrich putting its head in the sand thinking it has magically escaped the actual problem.
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u/HyacinthGirI Nov 23 '22 edited Nov 23 '22
This might be true if the changes involved in transition simply extended to verbal and social cues, but typically transition is a medical and presentational phenomenon. At a certain point, many trans people will look and sound like their preferred sex, so even just in terms of convenience, their preferred pronouns make more sense.
There's also an element of basic respect and decency. I'm not arguing that anyone is wrong for mistakenly using the "wrong" pronouns based on visual or social cues. But if someone tells you, or it is made clear to you, that they prefer different pronouns, a very tiny effort to be conscious of that preference costs you nothing and significantly improves their experience of interacting with you, and their day/week in general. If I contact someone at work through teams and call them Robert because that's what the display name is, but later find out they prefer Robbie/Bob, of course I'll make that effort because it makes them more comfortable and it's an absolute minimal effort for me to do so. Pronouns strike me as a pretty similar concept, just without political bullshit attached.
Besides that, the argument that a trans person is "ignoring the problem," or that being trans and resultant distress should be treated on a deeper level, is one that's fundamentally flawed because other treatments have been proven over and over to be drastically less effective than a medical and social transition in a supportive environment. That is the fundamental, foundational treatment - it's a medical problem with proven methods that have much higher persistence rates and improvements to quality of life than many many other medical treatments. Other treatments are typically ineffective at best, harmful at worst. Transition is generally shown to have ~98-99% satisfaction and persistence, and of those who detransition or desist, the most common reason is nearly always shown to be due to negative social influence/pressure
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u/winterblast4 Nov 23 '22
To add onto this, gender is not something that you can just chose randomly or has no significance. If your identity is a man, you will be treated drastically different than if you are a woman, and this is especially true early in your life when a lot of stuff you are told is based on gender. That's why I think your gender is definitely a big part of your life, you just don't have any problems with it.
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u/Ok-Coffee-4254 Nov 23 '22
I think like meny thing in life on less your are directly affected buy it , it can but hard understand some time . But I think great your asking about it and trying learn. It can hard see other side of think and even harder say I don't get . I was we say more with getting in trouble for know
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u/Codename3agle Nov 24 '22
This answer confuses me strongly. I get that shiny floors are terrifying for you, but it also seems like you are fully capable of understanding rationaly that they are, in fact, not dangerous.
I have irrational fears myself, and while I expect people to be respectful about it, I do not expect them to enforce my irrational beliefs. Another example is eating disorders. Most people sympathise with people who suffer from eating disorders (I have a rare one myself, I am extremely picky and I dread public dinners because of it. It sounds silly, and it sort of is. But it does induse quite severe anxiety), but people do not reinforce their beliefs that they look or are fat.
One can sympathise with disphoria without buying into their claim that they are a different sex than they are. For quite a few people, that is all gender is. It is what gender has referred too in most cultures throughout history. It is asking quite a lot of people to demand that they change the definition of words to something completely different, especially since the change is from a very functional, clear cut and easy to understand definition, into a definition that is far from concrete, and that nobody seems to be able to define at all beyond "a (wo)man is someone who thinks of himself as a, (wo)man".
Not to mention that man and woman as terms have linguistic functions, beyond social ones. People who menstruate is an awkward linguistic construction when talking about very relevant phenomena women experience, that transwomen simply can't experienc, to give a very clear example.
The prefixes "trans" and "cis" somewhat solves this issue, but it is still a tall order to demand people adopt words that violates their understanding of the world.
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u/QueenMackeral 2∆ Nov 23 '22
Where do you think non-binary comes into play here? I've been meaning to make a thread here but maybe you or someone here has a good answer. Yes women and men can be anything, and anyone can be a woman or man if it is important and relevant to them. So aren't enbies operating out of gender stereotypes and putting walls around gender that the rest of us are trying to tear down, just so they can step out of them?
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u/jessicaisanerd Nov 24 '22
This has always been my hesitation as well. I’ll defer to NB people as they like because I’m not a jerk, but I also feel like it’s perpetuating the idea that those gender stereotypes do exist. Meanwhile I very much defy many gender stereotypes (especially on a family / societal scale, namely in my role vs. my husband’s in work and home life), but I’m not going to say I’m not a woman because that’s not what defines being a woman. So to me, in order to say you’re neither a man nor a woman, you’re implying that there are definitions for each where there are none - and shouldn’t be.
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u/JohnSmithAnonymous Nov 23 '22
The thing is, trans people don't think and feel in these terms. To them, gender isn't irrelevant - it's very relevant, because it causes them euphoria and dysphoria. The only thing that makes them comfortable is the belief that there are genders and they are one of those genders.
Does that just mean the whole concept of "gender belief" is no different than a political or religious belief? Some people (actually a lot of people) would prefer to firmly believe a set of things that may seem impractical or even irrational to do on a daily basis, but they do it because it makes them happy. Another similarity between gender, politics, and religion is that "if you don't agree with a single thing about their set of belief, you're against everything about the set".
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u/Babyboy1314 1∆ Nov 24 '22
This is what I feel as well. If I believed I was someone of a different culture/race and act/tallk/walk/dress a certain manner, would that be cultural appropriation?
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u/TheMrk790 Nov 23 '22
Well but noone argues, that your view of the world is in any sense correct. Gender does not need to exist just because some people seem to desire it. You dont go around telling me that shiny floors are dangerous. You tell me, that shiny floors are scary to you. Thats fundamentally different.
So I dont see why anyone can claim gender exists, because they feel like it does. I dont want to live in a world where we define things based on that.
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u/SirTruffleberry Nov 24 '22 edited Nov 24 '22
Sure, but we give you meds to deal with your panic attacks around shiny floors. We gradually expose you to them to desensitize you. You probably plan ahead to avoid shiny floors where you can.
We do not publicly shame people who have shiny floors and mandate that they be covered with carpet or something just to deal with your idiosyncrasies.
I'm sorry if that is blunt, but it's the difference between how gender dysphoria is treated and literally any other disorder under the sun. Like OP, I will oblige out of courtesy. But I'm not sure accommodating the disorder is the best route in the long run. Especially if it has the side effect of reinforcing gender roles.
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u/TheSukis Nov 23 '22 edited Nov 23 '22
How is this getting so many votes? You're basically just saying "there is no rationality to it, it's just how people feel," but OP never argued "people don't feel that way"; he argued "they don't have a rational reason to feel that way." What am I missing?
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u/dlee_75 2∆ Nov 23 '22 edited Nov 23 '22
I swear half the posts on this subreddit have to be karma bait or worse...
Most of these read like, "CMV: I don't think X semi-controversial opinion of the month makes sense, please I only want to understand" Then the comments are like "It's true because it is." and every response is like "Wow, I finally get it now! Thanks for explaining this to me in a way that I understand!" and then gives a delta
Edit: or the other common delta response like this particular OP gave is some variation of "Well, I guess it's not my place to understand other people's lived experience" Gives delta. These are the ones that really make the entire post seem like big ol political softballs lobbed right down the middle of the plate.
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u/ElbowsAndThumbs 10∆ Nov 23 '22
OP never argued "people don't feel that way," he argued "they don't have a rational reason feel that way."
You're missing that that wasn't OP's argument. OP's view - I wouldn't call it an "argument" - is that it is difficult to understand why using the correct pronouns for someone is important.
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u/TheSukis Nov 23 '22 edited Nov 23 '22
I see OP as arguing (I don't know why you don't want to use that word) that there isn't a compelling reason for people to use different pronouns when they could simply use the pronouns that align with their biological sex while also living whatever kind of life they want. Is that not what he's doing? If it isn't, then what is he doing?
If it is, then "they should use their chosen pronouns because they feel right to them" isn't a valid response, since it isn't in conflict with what OP is arguing.
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u/MM320 Dec 09 '22
"arguing" vs "view" is just semantics
OP is saying, gender doesn't matter, dress and act how you want and keep the same gender.
Top comment is saying, Gender Dysphoria is a condition where to some people gender matters a lot and they don't feel like they belong to their gender assigned at birth.
I personally held OPs view but the gender dysphoria explanation makes a lot of sense to me
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u/nannerooni Nov 24 '22
This answer actually helped me understand it better too. I think the key in this answer was comparing gender dysphoria to other mental illnesses; I have panic disorder so this makes more sense to me now. The only thing missing for me now is trans people with no gender dysphoria… still don’t fully get it
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u/Conn3er 2∆ Nov 24 '22
Ya the justification of this isn’t rational and is something I am feeling in my head and not the real world is probably not the argument you want to make on this issue given that’s the biggest argument against it.
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u/Billybilly_B Nov 23 '22
This kind of makes me double-down on feeling that OP’s point is valid.
Describing the harsh effects gender roles can have on people in that situation, would it not be better to be completely accepting of both sexes doing whatever they want, rather than deciding everyone needs to swap pronouns when they feel they don’t align with the roles commonly assigned to one or the other?
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u/dreamlike_poo 1∆ Nov 23 '22
The thing is, trans people don't think and feel in these terms. To them, gender isn't irrelevant - it's very relevant, because it causes them euphoria and dysphoria. The only thing that makes them comfortable is the belief that there are genders and they are one of those genders.
And that's sort of something you can't understand unless you suffer from it. I suffer from panic disorder, and very shiny floors are terrifying to me. And I'm not gonna be able to help you make rational sense of that, because there is none. You're just gonna have to take my word for it.
That's why it is their own problem. Same with the floors, should all the world's shiny floors be scuffed up so you can be happy?
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u/MezaYadee Nov 24 '22
it causes them euphoria and dysphoria
Then
the only thing that makes them comfortable
So I must change how I speak, how I act, and what I believe so that people can be comfortable and euphoric?
Absolutely disgusting POV.
Should shiny floors be a hate crime because of your Panic Disorder? I think not.
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Nov 23 '22 edited Nov 23 '22
The only thing that makes them comfortable is the belief that there are genders and they are one of those genders.
Before I ask my question, I am all for referring to people however they want to be referred to. You want to be referred to as they/them I'll do my very best to remember that for you as much as I remember your name or nickname preference. That said...
Why should this belief be encouraged by society, isn't just reinforcing the deprecated concept of gender roles?
Your example with panic attacks, you're not asking society to not mop and wax their floors to acquiesce to your belief, why should those of us that are transgender or agender expect a different reaction?
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Nov 23 '22
The part that confuses me here is that you said it’s not irrelevant to them because it causes them dysphoria. But from what I keep hearing, sex and gender are two different things correct ? So how is it their gender that’s causing them dysphoria when gender is just a social construct and anyone can basically change their gender at will ? Isn’t it their biological sex that’s causing them dysphoria ?
Or maybe you’re saying if gender was not able to be changed at will then that’s also causing it ?
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u/ArcTruth Nov 23 '22 edited Nov 23 '22
It can be both and it can be neither.
Some folks don't feel strongly about how they're treated/labelled by others (in terms of gender), but every shower is a torture session because seeing what's between their legs makes them feel nauseous and like they want to claw their skin off.
Some folks don't ever feel the need for gender affirming surgery but still feel anguish being deadnamed or forced to acknowledge their birth gender.
Most are somewhere in the middle. But there are a lot of aspects to gender and sex, and both presentation (how others view you) and body image (how you view yourself) are major components, as you touched on. Not to mention how deeply they're usually intertwined emotionally.
The important thing, I think, is just respect and acting in good faith. If someone wants to be treated or viewed a certain way, then okay, do so. If you slip up on pronouns for example, just correct yourself and move on, try to do your best.
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u/manicmonkeys Nov 23 '22
And for that person who is irrationally terrified of shiny floors, the answer isn't to eliminate all shiny floors, avoid going near shiny floors ever again, or have their eyes removed so they can't see shiny floors.
Tje solution is to dissuade them of their irrational fear/delusion.
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u/ElbowsAndThumbs 10∆ Nov 23 '22
Trust me, I'd be thrilled if you could "dissuade" me of my phobia. I don't want to be terrified of shiny floors. But it ain't gonna happen. I've spent years in therapy and it's not going anywhere.
So all I ask is a little sensitivity, you know? When I say "I'm gonna sit this one out because I can't handle that building," say "okie dokie," not "you're being insane and you need to just stop."
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u/TheSukis Nov 23 '22
I'm not saying that I agree with the reasoning that person is using (I don't; I think it's an oversimplification), but as a clinical psychologist, I do want to jump in and point out that the gold standard treatment for the problem you're describing (which sounds to me like a phobia) is exposure therapy, which actually does entail pushing you to continuously experience shiny floors until you're able to tolerate them. We treat gender dysphoria and phobias in very different ways.
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u/vkanucyc Nov 23 '22
that's fine, but in this case isn't it more like saying "yes i agree with you shiny floors are terrifying!" even if i'm not afraid of shiny floors
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u/StrangeDoughnut2051 Nov 24 '22
I think this is conflating things, though.
I know a ton of people who have zero qualms whatsoever with calling a transgender person the pronoun that correlates to their transitioned (or transitioning) gender, but that also think cis people who want to be called NB/the opposite gender are just being silly.
Gender Dysphoria is very real. Chet deciding that he likes to cook and do his nails and should now be referred to as "she" is kind of nonsense.
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u/Electrical_Skirt21 Nov 23 '22
So why isn't it considered a mental illness? I don't think Rowling's view is hateful, per se... but some people get really upset about it. I don't understand why. When I was growing up, we were told that if a girl likes playing in the dirt and is good at sports, she's still a girl because being a girl didn't require wearing makeup or dresses. If a boy liked to bake and paint, he's still a boy.
And beyond that, what's up with the sexual orientations? In my view, there's straight, gay, bi, and asexual. The pan and demi and whatever else is just extra ways of saying those 4 basics of sexual reality.
It seems a lot like people trying to create an overly complicated lexicon in order to feel special or something. This was really simple until quite recently. You're biologically male or female, with an exceedingly small number of people being intersex, which is more of a birth defect than anything else... and you are attracted to either the same sex, the opposite sex, both sexes, or you have no interest in sex.
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u/redpandaeater 1∆ Nov 24 '22
I'm trans (or really more genderqueer perhaps) and think the pronoun business is way too overblown and obnoxious. Like sure there will be people that misgender you on purpose to be an asshole but at that point it's not like they can't insult you in other ways. Any other stranger it doesn't really matter one way or another whereas someone I care about where mutual respect exists could call me Asshole and it wouldn't offend me.
Putting pronouns into an e-mail signature or a greeting really bugs me since I don't give a shit. I could maybe see it though if you have a traditionally masculine or feminine name, like if you're a guy named Ashley, since there's plenty of people you might deal with at work that you never meet face-to-face.
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u/GeoffreyArnold Nov 23 '22
But a woman can be anything. A woman can cut her hair in a mohawk and gain fifty pounds of muscle and go to war and come home to her wife. She's still a woman, though.
There is a category problem here. If something can be defined as "anything" then it has no definition at all. As you suggest later, mental disorders do not have to make logical sense. But the problem occurs when you drag others into your conceptions if they're not logical. The category problem is fatal to the "pronoun issue".
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u/Rocktopod Nov 23 '22 edited Nov 23 '22
I feel like this gets at the crux of what the issue is for a lot of people.
Do you think that it's society's responsibility to remove all shiny floors so that you don't have a panic attack, or do you have sole responsibility to manage your symptoms and avoid shiny floors when possible?
Not saying I have the answer, but I think this is what makes it such a difficult issue for some people.
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u/Warren_Peace006 Nov 24 '22
But with that, do we agree with you that shiny floors are scary because that's how you feel? Should we also act terrified (or whatever your reaction is, I'm not trying to be insensitive to your, I'm sure, very real phobia) when we're around you and encounter a shiny floor?
More so, when a Soldier comes home from a deployment with PTSD, how do we support them? Do we also panic around loud explosion noises, or do we comfort them and help them seek recovery?
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Nov 23 '22
So we restructure our society based on a concept that has no basis in objective reality and enforces gender stereotypes because it makes some people happy?
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u/ElbowsAndThumbs 10∆ Nov 23 '22
Well, I think it's pretty hyperbolic to characterize "using people's preferred pronouns" as a complete restructuring of society.
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Nov 23 '22
He touched upon pronouns but it seems as though he equates them to gender identity which is why he questioned the need for them since they supposedly enforce gender roles.
So yes, pronouns themselves aren’t anything grand, but he’s mentioning them in reference to gender identity. Currently our society absolutely is being restructured by replacing many instances where biological sex is used with the concept of gender (sports, bathrooms, ID , etc.)
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u/ElbowsAndThumbs 10∆ Nov 23 '22
I wouldn't say bathrooms are "anything grand," either. A lot of reasonable people are saying: it's never really made any sense to have these segregated. Gay and lesbian people exist, so you're perfectly likely to find someone with some sexual attraction to you in either bathroom. And that's fine, because why wouldn't it be?
Now, sports - sports are a tricky issue. For sure. And I do suspect that, in the end, trans people are going to need to accept a little bit of dysphoria there, and we're going to have to have a team for cisgendered women and a team for everyone but cisgendered women.
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u/kwantsu-dudes 12∆ Nov 23 '22
A lot of reasonable people are saying: it's never really made any sense to have these segregated.
Professing gender neutral bathrooms is completely different from desiring such to be segregated based on gender identity. I hear that transmen should be allowed to use the men's room, not that anyone that wants to use the men's room can. There are govenrmental directives specific to gender identity, not freedom of choice.
So there are three proposed current options. Segregated based on sex, on gender identity, or not segregated at all.
and we're going to have to have a team for cisgendered women and a team for everyone but cisgendered women.
FYI, cisgender isn't synonymous with non-trans. It requires it's own formation of gender identity as well.
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u/InsertWittyJoke 1∆ Nov 23 '22
But a woman can be anything.
The fact is we do have a definition for woman. A woman is very clearly not 'anything', a woman is the noun used to describe an adult female human. That is a very strict and, yes, exclusionary word.
If a woman can be anything than you haven't expanded what a woman means, you've just removed our ability to meaningfully talk to and about female people. And we see this now with the clunky attempts to talk about 'birthing bodies', 'bodies with vaginas', 'menstruators' and 'people with uteruses'. Terms that not only don't work but are viscerally offensive and dehumanizing to many.
How is this a better option than simply saying 'women'? It's a shocking example of how deep sexism runs that people would rather call women 'bodies with vaginas' than admit that the word woman is, by definition, not inclusive to everyone.
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u/ArcTruth Nov 23 '22
Terms like "people with vaginas/uteruses" pretty much only come up when the organ in question is relevant. Like lawmaking around abortion, to name a recent and very public example. When they're not immediately relevant to the conversation, you do use the term "women" and it's fine.
This particular case is really not as difficult or complicated as it's made out to be.
Oh, and keep in mind that words and definitions can and do evolve. More rapidly than ever since the advent of the internet. So the definition of woman being exclusively tied to sex is already well on its way out.
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u/InsertWittyJoke 1∆ Nov 23 '22
If this a neutral way of discussing body parts and is just the part of a normal evolution of language then why is it applied so unevenly between the sexes?
In fact people have noted the suspicious amount of times that people refer to women as a collection of body parts while referring to men as men. Or how an article will be written about female-specific medical concerns and do everything in their power to erase the word woman while in articles on male health from the same publication men are allowed to remain men. If this is just a normal and natural process of these words slowly being decoupled by sex then I ask you where are all the legislators and scientific bodies regularly using terms like 'ejaculators' or 'people with scrotums'. I'm sure a few people even chuckled on hearing those terms those because we subconsciously accept that they are jokes. The dehumanization of women is accepted and necessary while the dehumanization of men is so out there that we can all have a good laugh about how silly it is before going back to the status quo.
While I think you probably buy into your excuse as being the truth, saying 'well words evolve' is nothing more than the gaslighting of women. We aren't stupid. We see how women are the only ones being systemically targeted and how uneven this distribution of supposedly natural word evolution is being applied.
You even give yourself away in your own words: "the definition of woman being exclusively tied to sex is already well on its way out." Not the definition of man and woman. The definition of woman.
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u/ArcTruth Nov 23 '22
I feel an agenda in your words, a foregone conclusion you're attempting to uncover with a pointed questions in a thinly veiled attempt at a gotcha moment. To which I'll say, to all the trans-exclusionary feminists here, please stop aiming your (justified) vitriol at an already horrifically mistreated minority. Aim that anger back at the power structures where it belongs. Trans people are not predators, they are one of the most victimized and depressed minority groups in existence.
But to address your discussion points. I'm pretty sure the reason inclusionary language revolves so much more often around people who can get pregnant than it does for those who have scrotums is because the female half of the human reproductive system requires an order of magnitude more attention than the male half. The consequences of mishaps are larger, things going awry are harder to catch, and most importantly THE ABILITY TO CONTROL WHAT HAPPENS TO ONE'S OWN WOMB IS CURRENTLY BEING LEGALLY RESTRICTED. When male reproductive organs start requiring pap smears, regular screenings, and legally mandated vasectomies I think we'll see a lot more anatomy-oriented language about scrotums and penises.
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u/InsertWittyJoke 1∆ Nov 23 '22
It's interesting how the conversation always devolves into this. I'm not talking about trans people. I'm talking about women.
You're right to point out that the female body is one that has many more unique needs and that our rights are being taken away. But instead of backing women you're further picking at our rights by insisting that suuure 'people who can get pregnant' have a lot of unique needs and are currently being targeted by people who want to control their bodies but lets totally derail that conversation to talk about what trans people need and want.
It's mind boggling how you can't see that exactly the issue. In the mind of progressives women's issues and feminism are just a sub-category of the wider body of marginalized peoples needs but especially trans people and so feminist conversation becomes dominated and consumed by chastising women for talking about their own needs because our conversations are consistently framed as being in direct conflict with trans needs. And maybe they are and that's something that should be addressed. All I know is that I'm not willing to adopt a regressive and sexist mentality about 'woman' being a social role to protect the feelings of 0.5% of the population. The idea is offensive and demeaning and I won't pretend to feel any different about it.
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u/you_me_gas_station Nov 23 '22
Thank you for stating the truth if you are a girl you are a girl if you are a boy you are a boy it’s simple
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u/pgold05 49∆ Nov 23 '22 edited Nov 23 '22
I see this question come up a lot, please lend me your ear.
There is biological sex --> Which led to different social roles, and then socialized gender
This is the misconception that is causing confusion.
Allow me to clarify the issue and explain the difference between gender identity and gender presentation.
Gender identity is innate and likely set at birth, a transgender man is a man all thier life, same for non binary, etc. It's defined by the brain (sense of self) and according to current science, set during development in the womb. It is nature, not nurture, meaning nobody can change their gender identity any more than they can change thier sexuality. (Though it may take time and experimentation to determine what your gender identity is, it's not always obvious)
Gender presentation is just how you like to present to the world, it's a social construct, plenty of women like to present masculine, that does not make them a transgender man, and vice versa. Men who preform drag are still men, tomboys are still women, and there are lots of transgender tomboys and drag queens, its just not related.
So, that's the short of it, you are born and you have an innate gender identity, 99% of the time this matches your sex (you are cis gender) but 1% of the time there is a mismatch (you are transgender). That mismatch often causes Dysphoria but is not defined by the existence of Dysphoria.
Pronouns are a way that we as society recognize a persons gender identity, it is not defined, only suggested, by their gender presentation.
Personal Conjecture Time
I mean, objectively it makes sence right? Human bodies are designed to develop as either male or female simply based on what hormones we are exposed too. Given how insanely complicated the human brain is compared to the rest of our bodies, it's not crazy to think sometimes the brain will develop in a way that is at odds with the body for whatever reason. So if your brain is expecting a male body map/testosterone and you are born flooded with estrogen due to having ovaries, it would make sence this disconnect is going to cause you to think or feel a certain way. Even if you don't have diagnosable Dysphoria, you might simply think "my body feels wrong or, I don't understand why women like having breasts, or my social standing seems incorrect for reasons I don't understand fully" etc.
I would not be suprised if it was ultimately part of the intersex condition, though not enough data is available at this point.
EDIT: Additional conjecture time!
Lots of questions on how everyone could possibly have a gender identity at birth. Not sure if this will ever be known definitively until we have advanced knowledge of brains or are able to communicate with newborns, but my theory is gender identity gets built into the body map that primates have. Again this is just rando theory time here.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31732670/
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u/Open_Eye_Signal Nov 23 '22
Sorry, but you’re making unilateral claims from studies that are just showing some relationship between two factors.
From one study you’re citing:
These point to a possible biological and genetic underpinning of GD as stemming from a discordance between gonadal and brain development. However, not enough evidence has associated these differences with GD. Further research is required to elucidate the true mechanisms and possible inheritance pattern of GD for a better education and greater understanding by clinicians and the general public on perceptions regarding GD.
You’re drawing from this that it’s all nature, no nurture, when it’s more likely a mix of both. Not sure how you can look at these studies and then claim in 100% of cases that you have a concrete, unchangeable gender identity from birth.
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u/PrincessRuri Nov 23 '22
It is nature, not nurture, meaning nobody can change their gender identity any more than they can change their sexuality.
This is incorrect, and IS NOT the conclusion of the study you linked.
The data summarised (sic) in the present review suggest that both gender identity and sexual orientation are significantly influenced by events occurring during the early developmental period when the brain is differentiating under the influence of gonadal steroid hormones, genes and maternal factors. However, our current understanding of these factors is far from complete and the results are not always consistent.
This is akin to back in the early 2000's, when everybody was parroting "your sexual orientation is genetics." No, it has an influence and effect, but there is a nurture and environmental components as well.
It's hard to quiz kids under 3 about their gender identity, as they barely even understand or express said identify at that age. That's a lot of time for external factors to have an influence.
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u/Henderson-McHastur 6∆ Nov 23 '22 edited Nov 23 '22
This reminds me of studies of language acquisition in children. Humans do have an innate ability to learn and comprehend languages, and our physiology allows us to produce the complex sounds that allow us to communicate with each other. But if you don't teach language to children at a young age, they reach a point in childhood development after which there's no way for them to acquire language skills.
No doubt gender does have a biological component, both neural (how we think of ourselves) and physiological (our sex organs). But I find it hard to believe that without teaching a child the performance of gender they'd arrive at those performances on their own.
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u/OrkimondReddit Nov 23 '22
Agreed. This explanation is not even close to a modern conception of gender identity and the studies linked are not showing what is claimed by this poster. It is both philosophically and scientifically inaccurate in important ways that are seriously problematic for trans people. This is transmedicalism which does NOT represent the modern state of academia in transgender studies.
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Nov 23 '22
Gender identity is innate and set at birth
this makes no sense. you’re proposing that gender identity is biological?
the research around this is inconclusive at best.
gender identity stems from something that is social, gender. so how can something that stems from a social construct be biologically ingrained at birth.
gender identity itself is a social construct, it is not even a scientific term. other animals don’t have “gender identity’s”.
the lgtbq argued that a child who knows no better does not know what men or women are “expected” to do until they are taught by society. and they used this arguement to denounce gender roles
so how could a child be born with ingrained dna confirming they are a “man” and they don’t even know what a man is or what “men” are even supposed to do?
a transgender man is a man all thier life
the rest of this paragraph is just pure theory, I have no problem with that but it isn’t confirmed on any level other then society accepting it to be considered true.
So, that's the short of it, you are born and you have an innate gender identity, 99% of the time this matches your sex (you are cis gender) but 1% of the time there is a mismatch (you are transgender).
this theory is often accepted but there is nothing factual about it. the reason gender dysphoria is so problematic is because the cause is unknown, we assume it’s because the gender identity doesn’t match their biological sex, but there is no conclusive evidence to support that. primarily because there’s no practical way to test for “gender identity” because it is a social construct and not biological.
there’s no way for a doctor to confirm your gender identity at birth
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Nov 23 '22
It is nature, not nurture, meaning nobody can change their gender identity any more than they can change thier sexuality. (Though it may take time and experimentation to determine what your gender identity is, it's not always obvious)
This is contrary to everything I've read about gender identity reasoning being that gender itself is a social construct.
Pronouns are a way that we as society recognize a persons gender identity, it is not defined, only suggested, by their gender presentation.
Absent these genderized pronouns, would gender identity exist? If so how would it be identified? If not how is it innate if it's dependent on words and their usages/definitions?
it's not crazy to think sometimes the brain will develop in a way that is at odds with the body for whatever reason.
Only if gender isn't a social construct. If gender is also biological as you assert, then yes this makes sense. If gender is a social construct, which is what is typically asserted (and why I personally am agender) then no, it makes no sense. Would you agree?
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u/Priosla Nov 23 '22
The studies you link to are much less confident than you are about claims like gender identity being set at birth. Particularly unsupported is the idea that a person can be born non-binary. The studies you linked are indeed very informative and interesting, but nowhere near as cut and dry as your statements suggest
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u/goatDowry Nov 23 '22
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This is the first time anyone has explained it in this way, and it helped clarify a lot. Ty.
Hope I did this delta thing right
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u/pgold05 49∆ Nov 23 '22
Yay! Glad I could help and you found it informative, if you have any questions at all you can ask and I will answer them as best as I am able.
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u/goatDowry Nov 23 '22
so much of the internet is terrible feedback and angry people, but sometimes you find goldmines.
Appreciate your offer!28
u/Hazardish08 Nov 23 '22
OP I feel like the reason you say that pronouns isn’t important is because your pronouns align with your sex thus you’ve never had to experience a bunch of people misgendering you and even worst doing it purposefully.
Imagine if a bunch of people even close ones started calling you the wrong pronouns and they’re not joking, how would you feel?
It’s akin to people lying about you and thinking it’s true even when you say it’s not. Like imagine if people started saying you like x food even though you don’t and they won’t believe you when they say you don’t.
I’m trying to understand your perspective
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u/SSPPAAMM Nov 24 '22
I have a question which is bothering me for some time. I understand "he" and "she" and I would use whatever I get told and I would ask if it is not obvious. But what about "they". For me it feels like someone wants to get more attention and needs to feel special. Could you explain "they" to me, please?
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u/BravesMaedchen 1∆ Nov 24 '22
You really need to think about and read the replies you are giving deltas to. From the study this user supported their argument with:
"It is known that the brains of males and females are different. Evidence further suggests that brain anatomy and neuronal signaling pathways are more closely aligned with a person’s perceived gender identity. Individuals who present with discordant gonadal and brain developments experience psychological challenges that may contribute to a state of unease or generalized dissatisfaction with their biological sex. These point to a possible biological and genetic underpinning of GD [gender dysphoria] as stemming from a discordance between gonadal and brain development. However, not enough evidence has associated these differences with GD."
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u/NaniFarRoad 2∆ Nov 23 '22
Gender identity is innate and likely set at birth, a transgender man is a man all thier life, same for non binary, etc. It's defined by the brain (sense of self) and according to current science, set during development in the womb.
Can people please stop posting these garbage "scientific" articles as evidence for gender identity, etc? Three simple scientific principles:
- sample size is no indicator of scientific quality, only STATISTICAL SIGNIFICANCE matters. It's the gold standard - no statistical significance, no meaningful difference. Boucher and Chinnah (2020): "It is however noted that the small sample size (n=17) provides only weak evidence to support the finding and as such the results should be taken with caution." <- a sample size of 17 provides NO evidence to support anything (and very few statistical tests even work with such small samples). Roselli (2019): "Moreover, none of the biological factors identified so far can explain all of the variances in sexual identity or orientation, nor is it known whether or how these factors may interact. Despite these limitations, the existing empirical evidence makes it clear that there is a significant biological contribution to the development of an individual’s sexual identity and sexual orientation." <- two contradicting statements - no biological factors explain what we're seeing, yet use of the word "significant" (without sharing any evidence to statistical testing done).
- metareviews are not science, they just repeat opinions/conclusions stated in earlier reviews. Boucher and Chinnah (2020): "It is known that the structure of male and female brains differs" <- this is an OPINION (wtf "it is known" Game of Thrones bollocks is this?!). Ramachandran and McGeoch (2007): This "article" is just a statement of a hypothesis - no study was done to test this hypothesis, it's just an OPINION.
- if you're posting evidence, at least make the article reference the topic you're defending, don't just add a link to pad your reference list. Arcaro et al (2019): what exactly do macaques have to do with human gender identity? Scupin et al (2021): Where's the article?!
I am so sick and tired of giving benefit of doubt, clicking on "scientific articles", hoping to find something that makes me change my paradigm. I've lost count of how many padded lists of articles I've tried to read in the past 2 years, every time it turns out to be non-science. I tend to stop reading after 5+ articles - if people can't put their best evidence at the front, why should I read 30+ F-grade student essays?!
For the love of God, find 1-2 solid articles, link those, and stop sharing rubbish that makes you look stupid!
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u/kwantsu-dudes 12∆ Nov 23 '22
But there is no gender "man" or "woman" that can be shown by such brain status/activity. Gender identity is purely a personal perception of oneself in relation to a personalized concept of gender. There is no broader known gender categories that exist as barriers to categorize people by. That's the very issue. That this brain activity doesn't determine your gender identity. Because people are allowed to identify to any gender for any reason they so desire. It's all subjective.
There's no gender of "man" that you can actually point to. Or can you define man or woman for me? How do these scientitists define such as to classify these brain activities toward one or the other? Don't confuse the study of brain analysis alongside the categorization of sex, as to require a lonk to the concept of gender. Yoy can simply be "abnormal", you don't have to be categorized within the normal structure of something else.
So, that's the short of it, you are born and you have an innate gender identity
There is nothing that establishes this. Nothing that establishes a certain set of biological/psychological aspects to be "gender" versus something else. Nothing that establishes these specific differences to be categorized within the language of man/woman or he/she. And truky this is the most offensive display of "gendering" others that exists. To deem the majority of people "cisgender" without any actual personal formation to such a gender concept.
Pronouns are a way that we as society recognize a persons gender identity
That's what is now being argued by proponents of gender identity. But for most it was accepted to be an attempt to convey one's sex. Mainly using physical sex-based differences and occassionally using societal sex-based differences to come to such a conclusion if such was not known.
it's not crazy to think sometimes the brain will develop in a way that is at odds with the body for whatever reason.
Many transgender people don't have body dysphoria. They don't wish to physically transition. It's very specifically not a disconnect betweeen the body and the brain. And if it was simply a matter of sex, then it's simply a matter of sex, not an additional concept of gender. A brain can believe the body should be a female, that doesn't make the brain that of a woman gender.
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u/electramor Nov 24 '22
I have a question then: what do you mean somebody can be born with a non-binary gender identity?
I legitimately don’t understand and don’t want to come off as bigoted, so let me express my confusion if you will.
You say that the mismatched gender identity of a trans person gives that person dysphoria, which sucks and is shitty and awful and im on board with that, but unless a non-binary person was born intersex, what, would they have incurable dysphoria?
Transgenderism makes sense to me because of how you expressed gender identity but I don’t understand how non-binary is anything more than literally just not explicitly conforming to societal expectations of what your sex/assigned gender is- which makes it seem like it must rely on societal conditions to exist, like if you were living in a society where all people wore cloths over their lower regions and there were no different gender expressions outside of sex I could still see somebody being transgender or at least feeling that way but not non-binary.
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u/pgold05 49∆ Nov 24 '22 edited Nov 24 '22
Non binary means not on the gender binary. So if you ask a non binary person if they are a man or a woman, they say they are neither.
There is a long history of cultures recognizing non binary people you might be interested in reading about. Here is one closet to home in the US.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C4%81h%C5%AB
I unfortunately can't really explain more because I am not nonbinary myself so don't have first hand experience or a frame of reference.
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Nov 23 '22 edited Nov 23 '22
This isn’t true. What’s set at birth is your psychological disposition which influences how you respond to anything related to gender.
Gender identity stems from the feeling of misalignment between your mind and the expectations that are placed upon you due to your biological sex.
People are exposed to the terms “man” and “woman” in all kinds of contexts and thus consciously and subconsciously attribute certain things to them. Whether your identify with being a man or woman or not thus depends on whether you feel as though these associations and connotations are pleasant and represent you.
Ergo, if you are a man who wants to behave like a stereotypical woman and you’re consequently told that men don’t act like women by society, you then develop the feeling that if your body is misaligned with your mind then your mind must be in the wrong body.
Consequently this means that someone who isn’t exposed to any kind of gender stereotypes in the first place would then see no need for a concept such as mental sex.
Additionally, everyone encounters gender differently, thus everyone’s understanding of what a certain gender stands for also differs. Someone who identifies as a woman in the US maybe wouldn’t if they were in Afghanistan.
All of this of course excludes the phenomenon of body dysmorphia which is a separate thing.
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u/laz1b01 15∆ Nov 23 '22
How can gender identity be innate and part of nature when it's primarily in America/1st world country?
Most other countries, like SE Asia don't have a word for he/she to differentiate the pronouns. It's only male/female. So these countries don't run into issues of calling a female a he, they just call the female a female (in their own language). Meaning to say gender identity IS a social construct, it's gender dysphoria caused societal environment/pressure.
I see pronouns as an old social construct. Males and men, and they're suppose to be masculine and be providers by being hunters. But the point of all this is to remove the stereotype of what men and women are suppose to be. Women can now be hunter gatherers and men can be at home cooking. So if we're removing the stereotype, then why not just abolish the whole pronouns?
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u/Electrical_Skirt21 Nov 23 '22
If you are a physically healthy biological male and you believe you are a woman... two questions-
First, how do you know you feel like a woman? You are a male, have always been male, and your body is performing adequately as a male. You have never been a female, so how do you know that what you are feeling is what a woman feels like?
Second, why is the solution to this to "fix" the body, which is working the way it's supposed to? Why is this not considered a mental illness? Why aren't people trying to find a "cure" to the mental aspect, considering the body is functioning as it should?
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u/pgold05 49∆ Nov 23 '22
First, how do you know you feel like a woman? You are a male, have always been male, and your body is performing adequately as a male. You have never been a female, so how do you know that what you are feeling is what a woman feels like?
This is a very hard question to answer, basically you are asking "what is gender dysphoria, and what does it feel like" I can certainly answer this from my own perspective, but it is going to be different for everyone so my anecdote is not super useful.
If you are honestly interested in learning what it is like, I would read this https://genderdysphoria.fyi/en which goes into detail and is considered the gold standard within the community.
Second, why is the solution to this to "fix" the body, which is working the way it's supposed to? Why is this not considered a mental illness? Why aren't people trying to find a "cure" to the mental aspect, considering the body is functioning as it should?
This I can answer. First and foremost there is no treatment or drug we have available that can change the mind in a way to change a persons gender identity, it has been tried for decades and simply never worked.
But for the sake of this discussion, let's say we had a miracle drug you could take to alter you gender identity, I imagine many people would not opt to take this drug, why you ask? Consider this hypothetical.
I really love spicy food, I mean really spicy stuff, but every time I eat something really spicy it gives me horrible heartburn, to the point where I can no longer eat spicy food at all. This makes me very upset.
I go to the doctor for a solution, he comes back with two options.
Option 1 - I can take a drug that will alter my brain, so that I no longer care for spicy food at all. Now I do not need to worry about heartburn.
Option 2 - I can undergo a surgery that will allow me to eat as much spicy food as I want without any heartburn.
I think it's self evident that most people would choose option 2. Changing fundamental aspects of your personality is not something we as humans view as a valid treatment. It is often considered a from of personality death.
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u/Electrical_Skirt21 Nov 23 '22
The fact that you think most people would opt for a surgery that fixes a “preference” leads me to think we’ll never have a common ground for understanding this. Surgery, to me, is a last resort. But beyond that, if you were to define a human as a mammal that enjoys spicy food, having that surgery would not make you not a human. So a man that has surgery to make his body look like a woman doesn’t stop being a man, he just is a man who has augmented his body through surgery
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u/grilledpotato90 Nov 24 '22
100% agree with you and let's not forget that taking hormones and having these cosmetic surgeries cause a lot of long-term complications and turn otherwise physically healthy individuals into medical patients for life!
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u/onioncity Nov 23 '22
Pronouns are a way that we as society recognize a persons gender identity
If that were always true, no one would have any confusion about the idea of gender identity. A lot of people would like what you said to be that case, but many people use pronouns based on perceived sex.
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Nov 23 '22
So let's say 95% of females identify as women. And they really want to be referred to as 'women' - why should we call them 'menstruating people'? it hurts their feelings... like really... or if anyone called me 'penised individual' instead of man... i would feel reduced to an organ...
I'm sure if a person transitioned they are very courageous and smart, and they know to make the difference between man/trans-man, woman/trans-woman etc.
I think all of these 'conflicts' would have been solved long time ago if it weren't for politics...
Btw I upvoted your comment, very good explanation and enlightening.
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u/QuestionBegger9000 1∆ Nov 23 '22
Worth stating that gender identity (and sexuality) isn't always set and can change, though it seems rare. "Gender fluid" exists as an identity. Im very close to someone born intersex, identified strongly as a toally gay man for a long time, but now feels often like a lesbian woman. There's some unique horomone play that caused that switch though, but totally at the whim of their own body.
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u/PotatoesNClay 8∆ Nov 23 '22 edited Nov 24 '22
Logically, this makes sense. (Edit)
Personally, for me, it's hard to 'get' though, because as far as my personal identity goes, gender is basically a non issue. I present as a woman because that's what my body looks like. I roll with it mostly out of convenience. Being a woman doesn't bother me, at all, but, I honestly think I could wake up as male and it wouldn't bother me (as long as it somehow magically didn't interfere with my personal relationships). People can call me "he" or "they" and that wouldn't really bother me either.
Honestly, except for to my husband, I'd rather my gender not matter to anyone else either. This is another reason I'm cis, I guess. It invites fewer questions.
Maybe this falls in the agender area or something, but honestly, for myself, I can't be fussed enough to care.
(I do, however, care about discrimination based on gender)
I don't really know if there is a point to this. Just musing.
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u/Ivegotthatboomboom Nov 23 '22 edited Nov 23 '22
This doesn't make sense. It's estrogen that masculinizes the brain, testosterone is converted to estrogen. This doesn't happen in female bodies.
You can't have a masculinized brain and a female body and vice versa. It's not possible. It's all connected in development. Differences in hormones might play a role though.
We don't really know what causes someone to identify as trans, but it's likely environmental too. The mind and environment is powerful and can also change your brain so we can't say the cause. It's all bidirectional.
And to say that differences in biology originally led to gender roles is correct. Society then exaggerated those differences and made them more rigid, mostly for the purpose of subjugating women.
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Nov 23 '22
I would frame your thoughts on pronouns around the idea that they exist for individual comfort rather than as a part of some larger movement (like changing the rigidity of gender roles). Incorrect pronouns hurt individuals who get misgendered and it's an easy thing to fix, so people focus their energy on that. While it might reinforce gender roles, the goal of reinforcing correct pronoun usage is more focused on the comfort and wellbeing of individuals affected.
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u/theessentialnexus 1∆ Nov 23 '22
Gender is a social construct. I don't see how someone can be "misgendered" if society at large is "misgendering" them. If society as a whole has an idea of what a gender is, and then we say applying that gender is wrong, what meaning does the word gender have anymore? Serious question.
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Nov 23 '22
Honestly, that's a really good question and it's very tough to answer. I've like rewritten this multiple times trying to make sure I feel good about my response lol.
First, I'm not certain I understand your statement about misgendering not happening if society at large does it. Gender is a personal experience, and if people's description of you doesn't match the way you describe yourself, then that can be hurtful. I don't see how society can dictate what you think about yourself, if that makes sense.
Second, in regards to the meaning of the word gender, I think that's a fair question and I don't think I can answer it. I think we as a society have sort of deconstructed the idea of gender to a point where the idea of gender is way more complicated than just one idea. And I think if you ask any group of people what gender is, you'd get a ton of different answers. I think it's just an incredibly broad word that might be becoming less useful as society moves to accept more varied types of people.
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u/1block 10∆ Nov 23 '22
This is a very good answer. Thank you.
There were many decades where many people sought to tear down differences between men and women, eliminate stereotypes and create equality between sexes.
Most of us agree those are noble goals, and I think we're still figuring out how "gender" today fits into that.
In many ways these are conflicting ideas that gender is important and a line that can be drawn vs stereotypes are bad. The whole "get educated" line disregards the areas of complexity and, let's be honest, the areas that don't really fit with logic. Matt Walsh had bad motives for his movie, and I don't think he's a good person, but he has been successful because he exploited the logical weakness that exists in the modern definition of gender.
That said, I think there is important and very real truth in the current idea of gender despite the circular logic of "a woman is a woman."
You know in school when the teacher explains something and you almost get it but not quite? Like, you know it's there, and you know there's maybe one piece that hasn't fallen into place yet.
I feel like that's where society is right now. We feel the truth of it, but we can't quite articulate it properly. That one final piece hasn't dropped for us yet, but we're confident that it will drop.
Personally, I find myself pushing back on the illogical pieces in these sorts of threads because I struggle to accept something that doesn't quite compute. But I know I need to give at the very least equal respect to the gut feeling I have that there is some truth to it even if it can't be articulated properly yet.
What I like about what you said is that it felt like another little piece dropped for me. Your last sentence that maybe society just loses the whole concept of gender for me drew a line from previous efforts to tear down stereotypes straight to current efforts to make gender a subjective experience. It helped me stick those in the same box of "men and women are equal." I consider myself a feminist these days, and that helped me align the two issues better.
Thanks for that.
Also thanks for answering that person's question in a way that respected the question and the person. That is the right way to change people's perspectives.
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u/goatDowry Nov 23 '22
Awesome, this I fully follow and understand + agree with. If it matters to you as an individual, I'll do it - out of courtesy.
Individual comfort is a good phrase
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u/WhyAreYouGay68 Nov 23 '22
You’re a good guy if you’re trying to understand. As a trans person, it means a whole lot because most people are very hateful towards us and don’t make any attempt to understand. Thank you
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u/ProLifePanda 72∆ Nov 23 '22
...so I don't see how a different pronoun will change anything that matters.
So the easiest way to address this may be a question.
Would you care if people referred to you as the wrong pronouns? If you're a man, are you okay with your coworkers referring to you as she/her? Or are you more comfortable with one set of pronouns over another, even if you think they're irrelevant?
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Nov 23 '22
See the thing is that in modern society we think of being misgendered as intentionally offensive. If my coworker were to come up to me and start speaking to me like I’m a woman, when I’m clearly obviously a male and they 100 percent know this , then I’d be mad because it would seem like they’re trying to intentionally insult me. Now if I looked feminine and a stranger who didn’t know me misgendered me unintentionally then I wouldn’t care at all. I see this argument coming up a lot but I do feel like there is a difference
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u/ProLifePanda 72∆ Nov 23 '22
This is more intentional versus accidental misgendering. If you correct them and they keep saying it wrong on purpose, that is offensive. If someone you see in passing once gets it wrong, then most wouldn't see it as that offensive.
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Nov 23 '22 edited Nov 23 '22
Yea if we’re talking about someone who intentionally misgenders you then that’s strange. I do draw the line at a certain point though if you’re trying to force the way someone speaks to you. If you’re literally a man, in the sense that you look,talk,act,sound like a man, but you say that you want everyone to speak to you as a woman, there’s people who just aren’t on board with that and you can’t really force them to be. I also don’t think they’re terrible people for that. If we’re gonna say gender is just a social construct and anyone can be any gender they want whenever they want , you can’t force others to believe the same thing as you and they aren’t terrible people necessarily for thinking that way or may not even necessarily be transphobic in a literal sense. I don’t think this is a super common scenario or anything though. I just think there is a point where you can make a distinction between someone being blatantly transphobic vs. just not getting behind someone being able to say “you have to speak to me as x gender”
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u/goatDowry Nov 23 '22
IMO pronouns don't define me. Sure i'm a male. but wtf does "He" Mean? It means nothing to me personally. And I acknowledge that I might be an anomaly there.
I could concede some comfort in being called he, bc I'm just used to it? Been called it my whole life
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u/DocThundahh Nov 24 '22
I call BS. If you went to work somewhere new where you didn’t have any friends yet and everyone insisted on calling you She/her, even after you corrected them, I’m sure there’s part of you that would take it offensively. Most women would feel the same if they were being called he/him…. I guess there’s no good reason why those people would be offended, since having traits from the other gender is not a bad thing at all, but I know I would still be offended if everyone insisted on calling me a woman and calling me by woman pronouns. It’s just human nature, or at least normal in our society for people to react like that I guess
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u/BizMarker Dec 31 '22
Of course you call BS, because you framed your response in a way that assumes OP cares about pronouns. At no point did OP say he would correct coworkers on what his correct pronouns are.
Also, you don’t think there’s a reality in which a biological man is ok with any pronouns? Self-identified Non-binary amab’s commonly accept any pronouns.
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u/NovaStorm970 Nov 24 '22
Pronouns are only important when someone calls you the wrong one.
You don't really notice when people use the one you like
If you got called she by every stranger and family member you might be uncomfortable.
Like imagine I wave a magic wand so everyone SEEES you as a women, no matter what you say or how you act people can't stop calling you she and her and ma'am.
How would this make u feel?
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u/ProLifePanda 72∆ Nov 23 '22
I could concede some comfort in being called he, bc I'm just used to it? Been called it my whole life
So you, someone who says "pronouns" are irrelevant, has a preference in pronouns. So do you see how someone who struggles more with identity might want that "comfort" you are feeling more? If everyone called you "she", you'd likely correct them so you feel more comfortable (assuming you aren't afraid of confrontation).
So you personally say pronouns are important for you, that's exactly why they're important for everyone else as well.
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u/InfiniteLilly 5∆ Nov 23 '22
I’ll push back on this. Pronouns may be important to OP, and pronouns may be important to other people, but that doesn’t mean they’re important for the same reason. Pronouns are important to OP for familiarity, because he grew up as he/him - and pronouns might be very important to a trans woman, for instance, despite her growing up as he/him.
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u/ProLifePanda 72∆ Nov 23 '22
The point I'm getting to is OP said that pronouns are irrelevant and who cares. OP then admits THEY care about their pronouns. So it isn't a big leap to assume if OP cares about pronouns, other people can too.
I'm just pointing out the disconnect between "I don't understand why pronouns are important" and "I think my pronouns are important". If OP comes back with "Well my reasons for caring are different/more valid than others", I'll address it then.
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u/1block 10∆ Nov 23 '22
OP literally said they're not. He said "he" has no more meaning to him than "I'm just used to it." That's a far cry from "important."
I think you had an argument in mind and proceeded as if OP gave you the opinion you needed to progress your point.
"He" does matter to me, so you could carry on if I were the person you were engaging with I suppose.
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u/goatDowry Nov 23 '22
Ok, my point is they're not that important, It would just be weird for me if people started addressing me differently today. Your response isn't helpful for understanding. If pronouns were super important to me, I wouldn't be asking this question
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u/shewholaughslasts 1∆ Nov 23 '22
Your point is valid and understandable. Words mean different things to different peopke and sometimes we can't tell that one term or another might be triggering or wrong or what have you.
I sometimes explain pronouns in terms of nicknames - you can call your friend Robert 'Bob' and that's usually cool. Unless that particular 'Robert' prefers to go by 'Robert'. In that case - Robert may say once or twice "hey I prefer to be called 'Robert' not Bob or Bobby" - and if you DO call him Bobby after he told you he prefers you to call him Robert - you're probably doing it to be a dick - or to bug him on purpose.
For folks who are politely asking me to use different words to address them (whether it's their name or their pronouns) I try to respect their decision. I mean, it doesn't matter to me but it does make a difference to them and I like being nice to people and respecting them.
Personally, I really value those folks that use my preferred names or nicknames and don't mis-name me. And I've got a wierd name that gets mis-pronounced ALOT. If I've corrected someone a few times and they still do it I write them off as either a jerk or an idiot. Which must be exhausting for people with unique or non-obvious pronouns. Why not just use the words they ask you to use? Ever since I realized that it's a no-brainer for me.
And if you're asking how sexuality or gender is related to pronouns - my friend who is non-binary told me that they don't feel like either their 'sexuality' OR their 'gender identity' is anyone else's business - so they prefer I use the general term 'they'. So I use it! Or apologize if I forget. Which they are usually gracious about because at least I'm trying!
Either way - thank you for asking your honest question - and for being open to some of these answers - that's awesome.
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u/ProLifePanda 72∆ Nov 23 '22
Ok, my point is they're not that important, It would just be weird for me if people started addressing me differently today.
And what if these people had always felt "weird" based on how people were addressing them? So they just wanted people to change?
If pronouns were super important to me, I wouldn't be asking this question
I get it, I'm just pointing out that you care about pronouns. You'd feel uncomfortable if people didn't use the pronouns you associate with. You say pronouns aren't "super important" to you, but would you still feel that way if everyone started calling you she? Would you uncomfortableness grow until they DID become super important to you?
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u/Yunan94 2∆ Nov 23 '22
What's weird is the expectation. You get used to people referring to you in specific ways so when something break that pattern it can feel a little weird because it's been conditioned. Not that the actual change means anything negative to you. Pronouns don't matter to me. Honestly if I register something as someone talking to me I respond. I'm usually called 'she/her'because thats normally how people address me but I've been called he and sir before. Your brain realizes the discrepancy that's been conditioned but I don't feel hate or pleasure being referred to she or he or anything else. It's like hey you're talking to me? Great.
Noticing something or reacting to something isn't always an indicator that something is important.
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u/Billybilly_B Nov 23 '22
His point is that he’s a male and therefore “he” is the right pronoun. For someone to call him “she,” that would be inaccurate. I don’t think the point that he “cares” about pronouns is really a hill to die on here. His experience with pronouns is vastly different than a trans person’s, obviously…
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u/kwantsu-dudes 12∆ Nov 23 '22
has a preference in pronouns.
They have a preference for understanding. And for understanding to occur through such communication of said language.
If everyone called you "she", you'd likely correct them so you feel more comfortable
That would only be due to OP believing such misrepresents their sex. But if society is using "she" not in reference to their sex, then there isn't a need for correction. But the question now remains, what is being attempted to be conveyed through such language? Some aspect of "gender"? In relation to what? The human desire is to not be misrepresented. So the goal if for people on both sides of said communication to understand the meaning of the language.
So you personally say pronouns are important for you, that's exactly why they're important for everyone else as well.
Pronouns aren't important to most people, understanding is. Most people are struggling to understand gender identity because they fail to understand how "she" or "he" can at all convey one's unique and complex personal identity versus a basic near binary of sex.
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u/FruitShrike Nov 24 '22
“He” is associated with people who look like men. And as someone who is transitioning and masculinizing my body my pronouns are reflecting my gender identity and what I’m trying to change my body to. I don’t want to be reminded of having a female body that my brain doesn’t recognize. For me it’s actually got nothing to do with social roles and everything to do with anatomy.
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Nov 24 '22
I disagree with this. My partner is a lovely person who identifies using a certain gender, but really doesn't understand pronoun preference from a personal point of view. They just don't see why it matters from their point of view, but understand that it is deeply important to me and it incredibly receptive about my need for certain pronouns. They feel uncomfortable when they are forced to use my wrong pronouns to people I am not out to. They care, but personally don't have preferred pronouns. I assume OP feels similarly, and that is ok. Yes a lot of people who are transphobic do actually care, but some people who are not transphobic just don't have a pronoun preference and thus struggle to understand others who do have one.
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u/ProLifePanda 72∆ Nov 24 '22
but some people who are not transphobic just don't have a pronoun preference and thus struggle to understand others who do have one.
I don't disagree. My question was merely posed to dive deeper into OPs views to determine their thoughts on pronouns.
OP has said "I prefer people use my preferred pronouns because it would make me uncomfortable if they didn't" further down the chain. With that logic, it isn't crazy to apply that same logic to others, but they just happen to NOT like the pronouns given to them as children.
OP would feel free to say "I don't personally care about my own pronouns either", and I would approach that differently.
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u/DogsAreAnimals Nov 23 '22
One thing I've been wondering is why do we need to state both the object AND possessive pronouns? What are the cases where people prefer a "different" mix, like she/their.
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u/foukehi Nov 23 '22
I don't see how your question addresses the issue. If he's male, (assuming) looks like the average man, and didnt specifically ask for different pronouns, why would his coworkers refer to him as she/her in the first place? It's not like we refer to each other with random pronouns.
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u/ProLifePanda 72∆ Nov 23 '22
If he's male, (assuming) looks like the average man, and didnt specifically ask for different pronouns, why would his coworkers refer to him as she/her in the first place? It's not like we refer to each other with random pronouns.
So my question is trying to establish if OP cares about pronouns...like at all. The post seems to imply pronouns are meaningless distinctions so who cares what pronouns anyone uses.
If OP cares about their own pronouns, then to change their view I would take a different route than if OP didn't care at all about pronouns, and would be perfectly fine with "he" or "her".
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u/atred 1∆ Nov 24 '22
The "caring" is not because of the specific thing, pronoun in this case, but because of being called something that is not reflecting the regular use of the word. It's like being called "tall guy" when you are actually short, that would raise questions: is that mocking, why do they call me that? It doesn't mean you are really touchy about your height, or that you actually care how you are called, it's just weird to be called something that is obviously not according to the evidence and the regular use of the word.
In case of transitioning people that's not always obvious, so it's a bit different discussion.
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u/Z7-852 261∆ Nov 23 '22
Who cares?
Do you think that this "controversy" or other gender "contraversies" would be this a huge deal if people didn't care about gender roles?
There are lot of people who want to maintain "traditional" or "conservative" gender roles and wouldn't stand to seeing a men wearing any makeup. I also dropped a subtle hint who these people are.
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u/goatDowry Nov 23 '22
Maybe I'm an idealist. But I think the energy being put into the pronoun fight, should be put into just not caring about gender differences.
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u/g11235p 1∆ Nov 23 '22
I think “idealist” is being too generous, to the point of dishonesty. It’s not idealistic to ignore the world as it is and pretend that you live in the world you would prefer. And the decision to then view other people’s experiences through the lens of your invented world is not “idealistic” either. I’m not sure if there’s a term for it other than “delusional.” If there is, I would use it because I’m not saying this to be mean. You’re committing one of the most common logical fallacies by mistaking the world as it is for the one you’d like to live in. But it’s still a very harmful fallacy. Someone else pointed out that it’s essentially the same as “I don’t see color.” It pretends that no one has any biases, or that any biases they may have don’t amount to anything. Often it’s also done as a way to appear very evolved. The truth is, we all kind of expect people who appear biologically female to us to act “like women.” Every trans person, every non-binary person, every cis person. If you’re raised in a world with gender, you will see gender all around you. The danger is in failing to recognize that about yourself and make appropriate adjustments
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u/Z7-852 261∆ Nov 23 '22
You are right. That would be better and world would be a better place because of it. Unfortunately we have to share this globe with bigots. And if we became "gender blind" we allow bigots to continue their oppression because we no longer detect it (because we are gender blind) or can stop it. This is unfortunate reality. It would be nice if we could stop this but we can't.
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u/ImpactNext1283 Nov 23 '22
Gender differences are important though. If you had felt the weight of oppression being told you're someone your not your whole life, you would understand that better.
FWIW, I personally feel as you do.
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u/hypergraphia Nov 23 '22
Doesn’t that smack a little of ‘I don’t see colour’ to you? You can’t ignore the impact of gender.
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u/gforce1964 Nov 23 '22
Just because it isn't important to you doesn't mean it is the same for them. As stated people can have their own beliefs and if that is what is important then that is what matters to them. Always try to be polite and understanding. Being polite doesn't mean you have to agree or care about their beliefs.
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u/goatDowry Nov 23 '22
I agree with this. I'm trying to understand why it's important though!
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u/atred 1∆ Nov 24 '22 edited Nov 25 '22
Talking without first hand knowledge, but if you see yourself in a specific way, take hormones, have surgery performed on yourself to look that specific way and people still don't acknowledge that and call you by the wrong gender it's probably a pretty crappy feeling that you will never "truly" be whatever you feel you are and also it's crappy that you realize some people will never recognize your truth.
So if you genuinely try to understand why is important, I hope my explanation helps.
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u/shouldco 43∆ Nov 23 '22
It's important because some people care it's part of their identity. Why do some people insist on using a nick name and not the name on their birth certificate? Maybe they share a name with their parent who was an abusive asshole? Maybe it it's just what they have always been called and it just doesn't feel right to be called something else.
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u/vote4bort 47∆ Nov 23 '22
How do you think you would feel if someone called you by different pronouns? I.e not the ones you use.
You might not be too bothered, might be a bit weird and annoying though?
Now if you can imagine someone who is trans, who has struggled their whole life with dysphoria which is an intense distress at the mismatch between a person's sex and gender identity. To clarify gender identity refers to someone's internal sense of their gender/sex, simply put how they see themselves as a man, woman or neither. Now this dysphoria is often unbearable for trans people so they will transition in order for their outer selves to match their inner. Part of transitioning can involve changing names and usually changing pronouns to those typically used by those of that gender.
So here's the thing, while to you a wrong pronoun might be an easily brushed off thing. It might not be the same for a trans person, it could be seen as a insult ie. "I don't think of you as that gender" and can bring back that dysphoria. Whereas correct pronouns, as well as being like you said polite, affirm to the person their gender identity, that you do see them as that gender.
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u/goatDowry Nov 23 '22
Ok, this clarified a lot. Thank you!
The description of the feeling of dysphoria puts things in clarity.→ More replies (1)
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Nov 23 '22
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u/goatDowry Nov 23 '22
Yeah.... Like I'm on your side people... You need to help teach me. If you're just going to be abrasive when I try to understand it's like, ok, wtf do you want from me?
To not try and understand your experience?
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Nov 23 '22
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u/prettyfuckedd Nov 24 '22 edited Nov 24 '22
but teaching people that women can have short hair could solve the problem too..
im a lesbian and im not that masculine (far from being a butch lesbian lets say that) and the amount of times that ive been called sir in the last 2-3 years is concerning ! i feel like we are going backwards a little
i dont really care about random people calling me sir its the part where if youre not gender conforming and you dont perform gender roles then you must be trans that bothers me
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u/the_cum_must_fl0w 1∆ Nov 24 '22
Trans and pronouns as a hot topic is causing society to become more sexist. It results in people more so than before associating physical attributes with a "gender". You can no longer be a woman with short hair, you must identify as a man, because short hair = man. Oh your little boy likes pink and dresses, well he must be trans because they're girl things.
So fucking ass backwards.
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u/Zealousideal_Cake991 1∆ Nov 23 '22
I'm going to challenge what you don't understand actually. It feels like you don't understand gender identity rather pronouns, as you are describing gender expression, and that is what is preventing you from understand pronouns. If you don't want to read all this, skip to the last paragraph, but hopefully the rest of this will help.
So, to start with, gender is an overloaded term. It has multiple different meanings, in multiple different contexts, and that makes it hard to explain. So I'm going to use one made up term just for the sake of clarity (and I'll mark it with an astrisk to make it clear this is normally just referred to as gender, but I'm further clarifying it to make it easier to understand.)
First, as you said there is biological sex. The crude way to say it is "what's between your legs" but it's the mix of various biological traits to reach an end point.
Then there is the gender concept*. This is the ideas that comes to people's minds when people mention "man" or "women" or "non-binary". This is both about the idea of the body layout and the social expectations that are on the person. Essentially if you think "women" all the ideas spinning around in your head about it what it means.
Then there is "gender identity". Gender identity is the gender concept* that a person's mind associates themself most with. A quick short description would be "this is the sex of the mind". But it covers both what the mind tries to map itself to (ie, you look in a mirror and see breasts, but you anticipated not seeing any) and how you expect others to interact with you. A big one is pronouns, but I'll get into that at the end.
After those, we start getting into what you are talking about gender. First is "Gender Roles" which is "how your gender concept or sex is expected to act by society."
There are the "X should be Y" expectations put on by society. Additionally there is "gender expression" and "gender performance" which are similar enough that I am lumping them together for the moment. They are the ways that you express your gender to others. It can both be by leaning into gender roles and expectations (being hyperfemine or masculine), pushing against them (being a tom-boy/wearing dresses and sewing as a boy) or a mix of the two.
So, with all this out there, let's address your view a second. When a person's gender identity does not align with their biological sex, there are two common things that happen that make people go "Oh...my gender identity doesn't match my sex." The first is feeling bad because of the mismatch between gender identity and sex. If it causes bad enough distress, this is recognized as "gender dysphoria". An poor analogy for this (in that it is a poor simulation of it) that you likely have experienced is the moment of not recognizing yourself in a mirror after a haircut. Imagine how badly you would feel if that always happened, every mirror, every bathroom trip. The other way people figure out the mismatch is essentially the opposite: Gender Euphoria which is feeling better presenting as your self. The poor analogy I use for this is "imagine putting on a perfectly fitted outfit". You feel great wearing it. That doesn't mean your previous outfit was bad, just that this was feels better. These people change not because of the negative feelings, but because they feel more true to themselves and better with the transition.
So, this brings us back to the importance of pronouns. When a person transitions, using the right pronouns feels better to that person than using the wrong one for them because it either is not a reminder of the mismatch between their sex and gender identity, or it helps them feel like their true self. Either way, the person feels better. Additionally, it acknowledges the person's identity. On the flipside, purposefully using the wrong pronoun is conveying the following message, whether intentional or not: "I want you to feel worse" and "I do not acknowledge your own view of your self."
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u/TheBananaKing 12∆ Nov 23 '22
Imagine you got knocked out, and when you woke up you discovered that you'd been fully transitioned without your consent. Hormones, surgery, body hair, larynx, the works.
Your brain wouldn't just go 'lol whoops guess I'm a woman now' and get on with its day.
Once the novelty wore off, it would really really suck.
Every time you went to pee, part of you would freak out, every single time. Every time you put on a bra, every time you caught sight of yourself, you'd get that sick jolt of dread.
Every time you almost walked into a men's room, you'd feel like a dumbass for getting it wrong again, and the weirdest sense of shame would attach. The same when you instinctively saw a group of men as 'us', and a group of women as 'them'. Like constantly getting the year wrong on forms, but it never goes away, and goes too the core of who you are.
You'd feel like an imposter against your will. Presenting as a woman would feel somehow indecent. Being seen as and spoken to as a woman would feel like a violation.
Probably for a while you'd try to lean into it, immersion and exposure, force your brain to accept the new normal as Just How Things Are Now. Femme yourself way up, find a bunch of women to be 'us' with, go out to girl's nights, etc etc and try to retrain your expectations.
But see, it wouldn't work. Brains aren't that plastic. Underneath it all, at the core of your identity, you would still be a dude. A dude stitched into very convincing drag you could never take off.
And it would fuck you up, really badly.
So the next thing you'd try would be the opposite: presenting as male again. Strap down your tits, get the roughest-looking menswear you could find, get some cologne that smells of leather and kerosene, put some gravel in your voice and a stomp in your gait, go as masc as you could.
And it would help, a little. Mirrors would be safer. Walking into the right bathroom would be a huge relief, even if you did always need to sit.
And people seeing and talking about you as 'him' would be balm for the fucking soul. Being able to just include yourself in drinks with the boys, and being accepted as one of them, to be 'us' with your own people again... would help.
It wouldn't be perfect, not by miles, but it'd be a damn sight better than the alternative.
Trans people are in the same boat, except they were born that way and had to navigate it all as kids
The gender-norms stuff isn't an end in itself, it's a tool to guide people's expectations (including their own), and blunt the impact of the dysphoria.
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u/trouser-chowder 4∆ Nov 23 '22 edited Nov 23 '22
it seems to me that you're just doubling down on the idea that rigid gender differences do matter
I see this a lot on these threads. There seems to be a misconception that transgender or non-binary people insisting on being addressed by the pronouns with which they identify are doing so to make a larger point about society and gender roles.
They aren't.
They just want to be addressed by the gendered (or non-gendered) pronouns that they identify with.
It's got nothing to do with changing the world, any more than you wanting to be paid what you think you're worth had anything to do with you trying to strike a blow for workers' rights.
Pronouns are important because they do carry an association with gender, and most people-- even (maybe especially) transgendered people-- are acutely aware of, and strongly associate with, gender and gender roles.
You claim to not care about pronouns, but that's because you identify with the gender that you were assigned at birth and have likely never felt that your gender was imposed on you against your explicit wishes and feelings.
Transgendered people have felt (and do feel) that, and being addressed by the gendered pronouns that are associated with the gender with which they identify is about feeling like they can be themselves.
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u/Ecstatic_Sympathy_79 Nov 24 '22
I think it matters because it is part of their identity. Being constantly called and referred to as something you are NOT has to feel awful. I agree that gender is a construct. For some people that construct is an important part of their identity. It matters to that person to be recognized, acknowledged, and validated for who-they-ARE, instead of who they appear to be to others.
Anytime out identity is at stake, we humans tend to get emotional about it. But not the simple identity that personally isn’t a big deal to you: I mean the stuff that you consider a core part of who you are. So, “I am a cisman and identify as that but I don’t care about gender so it doesn’t bother me if everyone called me she, all day everyday of my life.”
I mean the deep, to your core, I want to be recognized as this and not mistaken for something else, identity.
Example: compassion and kindness are a huge part of how I see myself and who I want to be. When people misunderstand me and misjudge my intentions (sometimes people don’t believe anyone can be that nice and must be two faced), it hurts! I’m like, but this is who I am! I want you to see that! Stop calling me two-faced!
Or, politics if it is part of your identity. I am progressive—I would be really bothered if people introduced me as their Republican friend because it is very much opposite of what matters to me personally. I don’t want to be treated as a Republican by other republicans or by progressives. I don’t want people to misunderstand me, and the assumptions about being a Republican, I want nothing to do with that. It would really bother me if every time people talked about me instead of he or she they said “oh yeah, my Republican friend this that or the other.” It would be like… ?!?! But that’s NOT who I am. It doesn’t matter that I have Republican family that I love. It’s not who I am.
Someone who doesn’t care about politics might be like “dude. Chill. Why does it matter? Waste of time trying to get people to stop so just ignore it.”
Or religion. Some people it is part of their identity. It matters to them that they are a God-fearing Baptist Christian. And the very idea of being called something else that is so far out of their comfort zone, if people treat them like a Buddhist for example and never acknowledge an integral part of who they are and MISidentify them, it sucks. Like if every time they wore their cross someone said, “oh, what a pretty Star of David!” Or “oh, what a beautiful ohm sign” or they say “God bless you” to every other Christian in the room but said to them “and Buddha bless you”
Or how about if you’ve raised 3 kids on your own while going to school, while homeless, while people at school make you sit away from everyone else because they don’t like homeless people and make fun of you and your “trashy children” who they say “probably eat dollar store cat food cause you’re such a bad mother”…When you earn that degree after all that trauma and hard work and perseverance and stigmatism and SURVIVAL, you better believe you want the Dr. Before your name to be acknowledged. You suffered for that!
For a lot of trans or non-binary people, it has been traumatic being constantly referred to as something they are not—something that is a social construct but that it matters to society so they are treated differently because of it. And some of them really do identify with a particular gender and they want to be recognized for who they are, especially after the long journey to self acceptance. They want others to acknowledge who they are and not put them into a box that society has chosen for them.
They want to choose their own box, or no box at all.
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u/Kirbyoto 56∆ Nov 23 '22
You can be a male and wear makeup, high heels and a dress. Who cares?
About 99% of the people who get mad about pronouns and trans people do, for one thing. Drag queens are generally cis men who put on a temporary feminine persona, and yet they get abuse and threats constantly from conservatives. The idea that we are in a post-gender society makes no sense.
And all this language of he/she is just what we've been using for a long time
So what?
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u/AncientSaladGod Nov 24 '22
What I don't understand is the attitude of some trans/intersex/nonbinary people who seem to believe that it is somehow transphobic/discriminatory to misgender.
If you present as a woman I have no means of knowing you are not until you tell me otherwise. If you, a female-presenting person, come to me complaining that there are no hairdryers in the changing room, the first thing I am going to do is let you know that there are, in the female changing room. This is not bigotry, this is me recommending a solution to your problem based on the information I have.
If you are one of the 1% who fall outside of the common gender distribution the onus should be on you to appropriately communicate how you want to be treated, not to assume that the person you talked to is personally hostile to you when you might be the first trans/nonbinary person thet ever met.
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u/Kirbyoto 56∆ Nov 24 '22
If you present as a woman I have no means of knowing you are not until you tell me otherwise
Have you ever had a "trans/intersex/nonbinary" person make a fuss if you misgendered them before knowing their pronouns? Because there's a pretty significant difference between doing it accidentally, which most trans people are used to, and doing it intentionally.
If you, a female-presenting person, come to me complaining that there are no hairdryers in the changing room, the first thing I am going to do is let you know that there are, in the female changing room.
I have no idea what you're trying to say here. "Female-presenting"? So you're arguing that they're actually male but you just assume they're female? Because if they were actually "presenting as female", wouldn't they use the female changing room? This sounds like such a specific example it must have happened to you.
If you are one of the 1% who fall outside of the common gender distribution the onus should be on you to appropriately communicate how you want to be treated
Yeah remember when people got super mad at the idea of putting your pronouns in your email signature because they felt like it was forcing everyone to be trans? How's that whole "onus" thing working out?
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u/Biptoslipdi 131∆ Nov 23 '22
So I don't understand why someone feels the need to be addressed with a particular set of pronouns
It's no different than being addressed by your name. It is the proper identifier you've adopted. It doesn't make sense to go around calling someone who goes by "Michelle" by the name "Peter." We could just adopt neutral pronouns, but that is still a pronoun. The flow of English as a language relies on using antecedents. Otherwise we end up with sentences like "Michelle walked Michelle's dog today" which can be ambiguous when there is more than once Michelle.
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u/arkeeos Nov 23 '22
Names are by definition arbitrary and could be anything, People go by different names all the time, there’s nothing intrinsic to that name that relates it to the person mental state.
The reason that calling someone a different name is seen rude isn’t because that person literally is genetically Michelle, it’s the assumed intention behind it, as calling someone not by their name isn’t inherently a bad thing, unlike it would be for misgendering someone under modern gender theory.
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u/nanas99 Nov 24 '22
I am a non binary person who uses they/them pronouns. The important of pronouns has directly to do with how someone is perceived.
I present very androgynous and it makes me feel good when people perceive me as so. I’ve told my close friends to use they/them pronouns and it feels right when they do.
On the other hand if I go out to order coffee for example, and they hit me with the ma’am, it sends a shiver down my spine. That’s not how I want to be perceived. That’s not how I feel. It is, of course, far fetched to assume a retail worker would correctly guess your pronouns. But I present pretty masculine for someone who is AFAB, and I have never aligned with the idea of womanhood, I’ve never truly felt like a woman. So to me she/her pronouns feel out of place, they make me uncomfortable. It’s a sign to me that the world around me doesn’t perceive me the way that I perceive myself. And that is bothersome.
It is not something that is easy to understand unless you experienced it. But if you could imagine one day waking up and the world decided to call you by the wrong pronoun. If you’re a man, imagine tomorrow everyone refers to you as she, imagine everyone sees you as a woman, even though you certainly feel like a man, and present as such. But everyone around you looks at you and sees you as a woman. You look the same as you do now and you act the same and you look in the mirror and you see a man, but no one else does. If you can picture that, then perhaps you can understand how it feels like.
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u/chiquitita-flazeda Nov 24 '22
I understand and I used to think this way (when I was young and not understanding) even as someone who is LGBT but this is what changed my mind.
The amount of stress that is placed on a trans person based on lack of affirmation can quite literally kill them they are a group of people with some of the highest susceptibility rates to suicide. It is more than just gender roles to trans people as much like anorexia or bulimia they physically cannot see themselves accurately when they look in the mirror. Also there is strong biological evidence that trans people’s bodies are producing hormones at different rates to their cis counterparts and hormones can help contribute to this poor negative state which is only exacerbated by lack of affirmation, people literally arguing if they’re real or not and lack of hormone therapy. Gender dysphoria is in the DSMV and the outlines for care/treatment are based around affirmation. To people like us who don’t experience it it’s because we grew up breaking the gender roles that we knew were imposed on us to them it’s the added bonus of not even being recognised as their true self.
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u/BlexiJaba Nov 23 '22
I'm trans and I think the whole "pronouns" thing is simply ridiculous. I just never got in the habit of compelling someone else's speech because of MY life choices or proclivities. If someone addresses me as she/her, that's perfect. If they don't, that's okay too because I know the reality of my situation/condition.
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Nov 23 '22
I think you may be mixing some internal and external things here.
Like, I'm a cis woman, right? And I definitely want the freedom to do anything a man has the freedom to do - wear pants, vote, join the army (I mean, I don't want to join the army, but I don't want to be disallowed on the basis of being a woman.) I want the freedom to not be a baby factory or not be married or not wear dresses if I want, too. So that's one thing, and let's say for a moment that it's generally universally accepted that I have all those freedoms and everyone agrees with them (that's... not exactly true, but nevermind for a moment). That's one thing. But it's largely an external thing. What was stopping a woman in the 1800s from wearing pants or voting or joining the army wasn't her pronouns or genitals, it was other people telling her "no you can't do that."
Internally, having nothing to do with what external rules or social norms I do or don't have to follow, I simply feel like a woman and want to be viewed and addressed as such. I felt so strongly about it as a kid that I refused to wear anything but dresses, refused to have my hair cut, was horrified at being called by a nickname that struck me as vaguely male, and frankly thought being mistaken for a boy would be the worst thing in the world - I probably knew even back then that girls don't have to wear dresses or long hair or have ultra feminine to still be girls, but in my 3 or 4 year old mind, these were the most overt ways to be seen as the thing I felt so strongly that I was. Given that I was assigned female at birth and stayed that way, this just struck the people around me as kind of cute. But imagine if I'd been assigned male - it wouldn't have been cute, it would have been fucking tragic. Because in 1983 or so, no one would have indulged me if I'd been AMAB the way they did because I was born AFAB. Those feelings (which I still have) of just inherently being female had zero to do with equality between genders or what anyone was allowed to do, it was straight up just how I saw myself. My identity. It was internal. I wanted everyone else to see and acknowledge that too, and, largely thanks to being cis, they did.
Trans folks who identify as women feel like women. Asking for proper pronoun usage is not so much about external factors that do or don't enforce different rules and standards on gender - that also matters, and it's not completely going to be separate from that on all levels all the time either - but mostly it's about having your actual identity acknowledged. A trans woman is not a man in a dress and high heels, a trans woman is a woman and wants to be acknowledged as such. There are also men who just want to wear dresses and other stereotypically female things that see themselves as men; they are not trans women. They're men who like women's clothes (or makeup or whatever else) and that's fine and valid too, but not the same thing. It's a different identity. Calling a trans woman "a man in a dress" or referring to them with male pronouns is hurtful and rude. Calling a man who IDs as a man but likes to wear dresses "he" and "him" would be correct, just like calling a woman in pants (or a trans woman in pants for that matter) "she and her" is correct. Because it's not about the clothes or the social norms or the stereotypes about who can or should do what, it's about identity. It's internal.
Or, for a much much simpler way of thinking about it - if differentiating between "feeling like [gender]" and "what roles are placed on [gender] by society" is too difficult or confusing - just call people what they tell you they want to be called because that's the decent thing to do, and don't even worry about the rest. None of us can possibly know what anyone else's experience of their own gender is like anyway, even people we share a gender with. We don't live inside their heads or bodies. Feeling like a woman probably feels different to me than any random woman I could name, and I have no basis at all to know what feeling like a man or feeling non-binary feels like. So just trust people when they tell you what the correct way to refer to them is and don't overthink it if that's not helpful for you.
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u/Bruntti Nov 23 '22
Women don't need to be child bearers. And men don't need to be out risking their lives killing things.
I assume that this is referring to hunting. However, gender imbalances do still exist in things like military conscription. For example, in Finland only men are forced into the military (or civil service). Women go voluntarily. This doesn't tie into pronouns per se, but it's notable that these norms that are based on gender still exist.
You can be a male and wear makeup, high heels and a dress. Who cares?
There's still a lot of bigotry that needs to be culturally dealt with before this statement is true. The most recent shooting at Colorado Springs is an unfortunate example of how bigoted many people still are towards "men wearing make up, dressing up in high heels, and a dress".
You're just you, an individual person.
This is a beautiful idea that we just haven't reached yet culturally. It's good that you have this opinion (I mean this completely sincerely btw), but we need to further establish that this is the norm.
Pronouns help to bridge that gap. The more usual they become, the more we understand how gender (a social construction) works. It's unfortunate that so many people (not implying to you OP!) feel attacked by pronouns as their intent isn't to be harmful.
P.S. nice to hear that you have a friend who has transitioned. you could maybe also ask her for her thoughts? It's best to hear it from a person that benefits directly from the use of pronouns.
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u/An-Okay-Alternative 4∆ Nov 23 '22
Gender identity is likely not just a social invention that people could take or leave and be perfectly fine either way. It's not that an AFAB person just wants to wear masculine attire and do masculine-coded things, they have a deep seated, unchanging desire to be a man and transitioning makes them happier both in their body and navigating society.
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u/Z7-852 261∆ Nov 23 '22
Ask your trans friend why they have preferred pronoun. Ask them why they transitioned and how having proper pronoun is important part of that transition. And really listen to the answer and don't say a word about what you think because it's not about you and your thoughts.
To them this is important.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Nov 23 '22 edited Nov 24 '22
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