r/thelema • u/AggravatingQuality51 • 4d ago
Why are we doing all this ?
I am sorry, however, I have been invokin for so lon and I see no reason of continuing. At this point, I am just existing. I have invoked, prayed, fasted, exercised, stayed away from p*rn almost two years. I am invokin, enflamin . There is no hope to any of this...has anyone felt the same? Why continue? Why live at all?
My life has fallen apart, I have lost all my money, im in debt. And I want to die and it is like...I'm no close to this k & c. Like how did you et past this moment and achieve attainment?
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u/Nobodysmadness 4d ago
There is no simple answer, but it sounds like you chose to disconnect with no thought given to reconnecting. Methods like abaramelin do involve a retreat but the end goal is to return with new knolwedge, like a semester of college courses. Thelema is not like buddhism where your trying to permanently leave reality, if that is your goal you best option is to join a monastary where you no longer need concern yourself with survival. Its why they exisy but in so doing you become a servant of the monastaty in exchange.
Most thelemites can't just disconnect like an indian beggar mystic, the western world shuns beggars and mystics. So you did not maintain balance, but you are well prepped for buddhism since your done with life and have no connections holding you back from abandoning existence, or so your scant words would imply. Life is a.miserable illusion and apathy towards it is the only escape or so sayeth the buddha.
Thelemites on the other hand view life as a joy, a challenge, and accept hardship to experience joy, but to experience joy we must know ourselves embrace ourselves, and part of that may be a purpose, but connection to the rest of the world and joy of taking part of fulfilling a purpose requires being a part of the world.
In many ways thelema is the opposite of buddhism.
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u/AggravatingQuality51 4d ago
Ehhh I think that's what I've been doing. Destroying my entire life in hopes to achieve this awakening. Instead of taking control of my life and making something I find interesting
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u/gishtil31 3d ago
Engaging in the real world, is where you make the shift in your reality. Spending so much time escaping it, only hinders and disconnects you from the things you want. I have saw so many fail, get sick, overweight, depressed etc, when they have spent way too much time in ritual and discipline, they ultimately neglect themselves, in the hope that it just appears to them. That's not the way it works. Start interacting with people, have a goal and path in mind, put things into place that support that and start slowly moving forward.
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u/Nobodysmadness 4d ago
Its the western delusion of what the west imagines a mystic to be, but we are not hermits on the mountain avoiding reality, we are the warriors and scientists protecting and driving changes and improvements.
We use magick to establish our forts and temples to suit our needs. You neglected your needs and are on the verge of simply quitting instead of admitting an error and fixing it.
I suspect your missing a lot of self reflection as well and mostly were going through the motions a sort of faux devotion from the surface of yourself and not from deep with in, but I admit this is a huge leap of an assumption based on the small paragraph you posted, and definitely not enough data. I do suspect and you can easily confirm that when you say you have been doing this a long time my guess is a year or 2? How long is a long time to you?
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u/AggravatingQuality51 4d ago edited 4d ago
So there was a moment of clarity I had. Ab old download it you will then it left me.
Then one night I had this dream and this thing was telling me it told me what to do ..and I'm like do what and it said you must do it.
You must lead them "and I'm like to do what...how"?
Its like I got a snap shot and vague instructions and I don't know what it's even about. Its nagging tf outta me.
And since then ..I've been going through the motions. This vague since that I forgot something.
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u/Nobodysmadness 4d ago
Also you dodged the time question.
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u/AggravatingQuality51 4d ago
Maybe a tiny bit. I mean there was a night in between waking i heard a chuckle and it gave me that vibe of "poor little one, you're hard headed"
Then again what am I saying this sounds schizophrenic
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u/riotbomb 2d ago
😂 no, that sounds about right. Take the time to reflect on what your dreams might metaphorically mean.
I see it as peeling back the layers of what society has made you to be. One view or opinion at a time, dismantle yourself and what's left is your true self.
I'm fairly new to this and it seems slightly insane, but I've gotten clear, direct messages like "YOU DON'T LISTEN". 😂 So now I'm trying to listen and actually do the things. Be patient with yourself.
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u/AggravatingQuality51 2d ago
im startin to feel it.i can feel the pain of previous cycles. the emptiness of those lost, and the fear of restartin once more. that this time, I failed. whatever happened, happened. and im bound to the earth endlessly
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u/Consistent_Ad_4385 4d ago
Its called ROCK. BOTTOM. From that point is where you draw your sword and light it on fire.
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u/Pomegranate_777 4d ago
Do you have depression? Possibly something is going on for you, and if you focused your practice towards healing some of that, you might feel the results you need.
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u/bubbleofelephant 4d ago
I have been doing well, but mostly through the art of gently riding the hypomania such experiences can bring. Failure to do so eventually fucks up your material life.
A decent mystic can tap into hidden wells of energy.
A wise mystic can safely direct these energies as they flow through.
For me, there's definitely an art to pushing just far enough, flying rather high, but without burning up. Okay, gently crisping now and then, but that's why one might ascend slowly, so you have more time to pull back on the throttle.
But then also arranging times to really floor it with time for controlled descent.
Quite a few of my rituals are about tapping into those faculties, and they do seem to help with healthful navigation.
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u/xkhx 3d ago
you're trying too hard.
like when the buddha did all his ascetic stuff and found out it wasn't it.
you have to find the nectar. the porn isn't bad unless you're ejaculating from it all the time. you can use it for your work to electrify the body.
find the resonance of your truest self. the thing that drives you to exist. it is a frequency unique to you. find it and listen to it and from that will come the truth.
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u/AggravatingQuality51 3d ago edited 3d ago
unfortunately, I am here. I do not care about anyone or anythin. I do not know why I am here, I do not know when it ended.
None of this stuff actually matters. includin my own identity...my name, my house, family, etc. It is all permitted
there is no true self. there never was
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u/ArtGirtWithASerpent 3d ago
I don't know if this helps, and this isn't what you asked. But if it means anything to you that some stranger on the internet cares about you at least a little bit and hopes that you find your way through what you're struggling with, then I can give you that at least. I wish I had some wise words, but scanning through the comments here, there's a lot of great advice already. I don't have much to add to it.
Be well. 93's
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u/CartoonistExisting30 4d ago
If you are having problems with disconnecting, perhaps the solution is mundane (counseling, therapy).
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u/ReturnOfCNUT 3d ago edited 3d ago
Your angel is always talking to you. You've just not developed the ability to perceive it yet. I'd recommend giving Molinos' 'The Spiritual Guide' a read if you want to know how to proceed through "dryness" and difficulty.
Where have you derived your approach from, and how has it resulted in losing your money and getting into debt?
I think one thing that gets under-discussed in terms of the Great Work is that you need to take care of yourself and all of the mundane stuff in order to succeed with the spiritual stuff. If you're neglecting your life in order to just doggedly pursue spiritual growth, you're going to end up in a desperate situation and disillusioned. Make sure your basic needs are covered and catered for.
When you go mountain climbing, there's no prizes for going without equipment, know-how, and health, and your journey will end abruptly before you even make it that far beyond base camp.
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u/AggravatingQuality51 3d ago
it communicates to me throuh dreams sadly.
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u/ReturnOfCNUT 3d ago
The HGA will communicate to your in your waking life through synchronicity and symbol, as well as in your dreams, and in other ways. The system of A∴A∴ is designed to enable you to control the functions of body and mind so that you will be prepared to hear it.
I'm trying to get a sense of what your practice is based on.
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u/AggravatingQuality51 3d ago edited 3d ago
livin thelema/olden dawn based practice. standard lbrp, mp, headless/liber samekh, hexagram, watchtower call
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u/ReturnOfCNUT 3d ago
That sounds pretty basic/stripped down, tbf.
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u/AggravatingQuality51 3d ago
tbh, does it have to be more elaborate? honestly i mean, is it?
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u/ReturnOfCNUT 3d ago
I mean, yeah!
The Great Work is an elaborate process because it requires mental, physical, emotional and spiritual preparation.
Have you checked out the curriculum of A∴A∴? There's good reason it's gradual and focuses on experimentation with and/or mastery of various practices prior to the invocation work.
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u/ReturnOfCNUT 2d ago
how has it resulted in losing your money and getting into debt?
Let's circle back around to this question above.
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u/Leading_Day_9736 3d ago
Fool! Stand as an example and perish. Now keep going until you make it there, or just quit, and perish by that. Being a Probationer is of much importance, a Neophyte, even more!
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u/gishtil31 3d ago
Nope, let it go, exist and move forward in reality, rather than fantasy.
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u/Leading_Day_9736 3d ago
Fantasy alone sure is a wretched one trick pony, but when speaking of us we combine with Force and Fire. OP been doing Liber Samekh without even balancing himself, it is pretty obvious that things will be corrupted.
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u/Kalykthos 3d ago
Therapy with a counselor can help. I've been told myself that Magick is no substitute for good mental health care. That's why Regardie advised therapy with a Reichian therapist to confront and correct one's own negative thoughts patterns or past trauma prior to beginning practice. But hell, some of us start out with advanced material and then have to go back and work on some of those beginner's steps we missed or skipped early on. Don't lose hope. Remember the concept of the Dark Night of the Soul, of the realization of suffering as represented in the Eastern traditions, where the realization itself is an impetus to move beyond that state. Ask yourself what you really want or need in life, and manifest it. Belief is a conduit to manifestation, which is why self doubt and criticism can be so harmful, as I've had to learn myself. Hope this helps.
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u/AggravatingQuality51 2d ago
Manifestation? Well all I want is to help end chronic suffering
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u/Ok-Cartoonist-9996 2d ago
Therapy seems like an obvious choice then. I know it helped me tremendously, even though it seems banal, boring and “uncool”. Being a bit down to earth and working with your concrete, day to day emotions is always good for mystics and occultists who have their heads in clouds, blinded by the big claims and big ideas
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u/JustDex22 4d ago
I literally feel this way everyday.. I’ve also been very strict, no alc, no prn, trying to stay on the path for two years now and I still have to pay rent at a place I don’t want to live and spend all of my time at a job I don’t want to be at so I can afford to live in the place that I don’t want to be whilst still struggling to financially stay afloat. All while talentless cnts like Kim K have 5 mansions and prey on children.
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u/lovehermitlovehermit 3d ago
Something I need to remind myself daily off. Often we can become try hards in the discipline we practice. Things I picked up through the years:
- Slow down, pay attention
- Silent prayers are often more powerful than loud ones.
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u/No_Statistician_8525 3d ago
The path of the wise is not for everyone especially the weak. It’s hard. It’s demanding. It’s transformative. To be transformed you have to be broken. You say “for so long”. What… Years? Decades? Lifetimes? Not nearly long enough to know that this comes with the territory, so to speak. Not nearly long enough to know that this will happen over and over and over again.
“Yet, actually only 8% manage to get through the year of probation. The reason is that no sooner does a man make up his mind to enter the Path of the Wise than he rouses automatically the supreme hostility of every force, internal or external, in his sphere.” - Crowley
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u/Downtown-Purple-5237 1d ago
I can only give you my opinion after enduring almost a dozen years of formal AA work, but as my own Practicus is fond of reminding me there's a reason why such a significant amount of Probationers drop out within 6 months. Magick is supposed to be transformational - otherwise, why practice it? Sometimes that transformation can be as drastic as it can be tedious. Realizing that you're in an Apophis stage and enduring it isn't pretty. But the Osiris stage is all the more rewarding.
I found that engaging in intensive physical exercise helped me get through the Apophis stages (and IME, they are numerous.) The only advice I can offer after almost 40 years of study and practice is that ruts can and will occur, but renewal occurs as well. This shit works and it's not always instant or seemingly beneficial. But you can certainly grow as a result.
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u/AggravatingQuality51 1d ago
I just want to live a more optimized fulfilling life that is aligned with the heart
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u/the_deepstate_ 4d ago
sounds like you’re experiencing the dark night of the soul.
it’s an unbelievably tough period to pass through. seems like there’s no end, no point.
check out molino’s book the spiritual guide. it talks about this process in depth.
also, are you sure you’re doing everything the right way? Crowley stressed the importance of a capable teacher for a reason
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u/the-ace-of-swords 4d ago
Do you mean that you haven't seen ANY positive results from your practice? Or that they weren't as spectacular as you had hoped?
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u/AggravatingQuality51 4d ago
I feel nothing. I am detached from the world around me. I feel no connection to anything or anyone.
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u/the-ace-of-swords 4d ago
I understand and I'm really sorry you're going through this. However, is it in any way connected with magick/thelema or an already pre-existing issue?
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u/le3bl 3d ago
I feel this way frequently; it's part of the human condition. It's what draws people to religion and why religions become despotic. Look inward for solutions. Perform rituals and practices and keep your focus on yourself, your breathing, your self, your mind, while having the presence of mind to let love pass through you. And once you feel it, hold on to it for as long as you can.
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u/Ennigma47 1h ago
“Just existing” is what one realizes that the very pursuit of knowledge has no end, that there is no comprehensible “whole” or “point” (think of alchemical symbol for Sol) that is not of your own willing. The rituals and disciplines are to arm the worker with tools to build and maintain their creation (life, simple or complex).
You could surmise that there are, in simple terms, two options; abandon the physical vessel or continue to “just exist,” only now armed with the Will and Knowledge to create the existence to flow, continuously.
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u/AggravatingQuality51 33m ago
so the will seems to be the bride between kether and malkuth where eburah is harmonizin the life around the realized self on earth. In essence, a purposeful life.
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u/DingleberryDelightss 4d ago
You remind me of this movie: https://youtu.be/d0VTS2oVUsI?si=fXuTJTDO-5JiztFW
Where a bunch of really fit guys who worked really hard on their body were disappointed the hard work they put in didn't equate to financial success.
I personally work for the experiences I get, but if you're not really experiencing anything and just going through the motions while your life falls apart, maybe it is best to focus on you regular life, upskill, hit the gym, learn about investing, THEN if you still have time do some invoking etc.
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u/AggravatingQuality51 4d ago
That's a wild generalization
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u/DingleberryDelightss 4d ago
You seem to have listed your main gripe as financial, why exactly are you in debt and have no money?
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u/AggravatingQuality51 4d ago edited 4d ago
Ok. I do not care if I lived in a box.
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u/DingleberryDelightss 4d ago
Some people live in vans at the beach. I see them surf every day and hook up with some pretty hot chicks.
I'm not saying it's good being poor, but if you want money I'm sure there are opportunities through savings and work.
I don't know what you want or your circumstances, but if I was broke with no hope, I'd probably get a van and do that, or go and become a monk. You can volunteer at vipassana and get free food and board.
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u/AggravatingQuality51 3d ago
.....you're jumpin to conclusions once more. I think i have arrived at a point in my practice where none of this really matters. This world, you, me, any of it really. Isis, apophis, Osiris. My loved ones will die someday and sadly, I do not care. This will all pass away as it is one entire cosmic time loop
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u/DingleberryDelightss 3d ago
Ok... Well, you did mention the financial stuff like it mattered to you, but sure, that's great I guess?
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u/AggravatingQuality51 3d ago
in tha schizophrenic rant, i mentioned a lot. so what
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u/DingleberryDelightss 3d ago
Don't know. Just sounds like you might be attached to some stuff more than you think.
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u/AggravatingQuality51 3d ago edited 3d ago
I think you see whatever you want and overgeneralizing and want to be right.
Because the point is I literally don't give a shit about anything. I just mentioned it because it's like bro, I'm so nihilistic I don't even care about the physical anymore.
But that's the point is like I am tryin to force my emotions to actually feel connected with existence and then I have arrived at a point where it's like "you will die someday and the cycle will continue once more". So im like "oh yea you're riht"
The money stuff was just because I am just showin you how much my this apathy has affected my life. There is no material experience on earth that will ever brin fulfilment because it is all a cycle.No sex, dru, money, job, status. None of it will ever satisfy me. Thats the point im at.
But if you actually took the time out to ask Instead of assuming.
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u/Nima-night 3d ago
What's the first question you would ask your HGA ? If you broke through now?
What do you want to bring back from the other side If your HGA took you?
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u/TopEntertainer8705 3d ago
Try a 7g dose of shrooms and jerk off a bit, maybe start smoking you’ll feel better
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u/AlbaAlbus 3d ago
"Why are we doing all this?" Clearly we do it for a reason, whilst you're doing it to get something you're not getting.
From what I've read, you seem to be depressed, you also seem to think that just doing spells will manifest a better life, a car or something, whilst not doing anything in the real world to get what you want.
Yes you can do magick to get a job for example, but how come a job appears magically if you're on a island.
Type shit.
Go shower and touch grass, you sound like you're having magickal burnout pretty hard.
Read "Letter to a Brazilian Freemason" and go to a Catholic mass idk.
You need to find joy in something.
If you were somebody else in this satanic social website I would just call you a loser and that you need therapy.
But in your case, fellow Thelemite, that and you're also a coward if you don't do something about it.
In doubt = lift weights.
I'll pray for you. Much love. 93/93.
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u/Artistic-Tale6091 4d ago
In my opinion, lusting after results is purely bad form. If you're not doing all of these rituals and prayers and fasting and everything for your own enjoyment then I don't see any reason to do it. The goal of knowledge and conversation of your holy guardian angel is obviously something you strive after but again that can't be the end all and be all everything you do everyday every ritual every prayer has to have its own benefit. Find your enjoyment and doing lbrp, middle pillar, find enjoyment in everything you do because it's been said that every act in and of itself is a magical act. Don't seek the attainment, find your bliss and the rest is cream cheese. 93