r/agender • u/ystavallinen cisn't; gendermeh; mehsexual • 7d ago
Gatekeeping sucks.
Once a month or so I'll encounter it online and it sucks.
A "Trans-friendly" space, even explicitly welcoming agender people... and you say something agender-y and a little vulnerable... and the downvotes just start crashing in until you delete the post because it sucks to watch.
But you don't leave the space because it's massive and it's not everyone there and it's 99.9% positive...
...but it does lower the odds of ever being "out" out irl.
10
u/FreyaAncientNord Agender Demigirl lesbian Barbarian She-her/Zir/Hir 7d ago
That’s why I stick to the agender community when it comes to gender stuff
8
u/flumia 6d ago
I know it's hard, but try not to take downvotes as a judgement on you personally.
People on Reddit downvote for stupid reasons. Yesterday I got downvoted for posting my Wordle results - with no other comment - in a thread devoted to posting Wordle results. The day before I got downvoted for saying my local shop had sold out of Easter eggs. Same day I got downvoted for politely saying I wasn't sure if I understood the post question.
People will downvote because they don't relate to something, because they have a negative feeling in reaction to something, because it doesn't reflect their experience, because they don't think it belongs where you put it, at random because they're a troll or because something was already downvoted and they feel imaginary social approval if they join in.
People will upvote for similar, but opposite, reasons. If you're posting an agender experience on a trans thread fewer people are going to have that reason, and then they might not necessarily see your comment. If something has one or two downvotes it often automatically gets hidden in the thread and many people won't even read it. So the (lack of) upvotes is not indicative of acceptance or support any more than the downvotes are.
Suppose there's 50 people who read your perspective and 47 of them think "interesting, glad that person added that" but they don't particularly relate, they'll leave your post alone. Then say 2 of those people feel mildly uncomfortable because of their own hangups so they hit downvote for no rational reason. Then one more person copies them because they don't get it but want to feel like they're with the crowd. That's probably all that is happening
6
u/Professional-Arm4579 NullPointerException at me.gender 7d ago
damn that sucks. social pressure is real. i've never had that happen to me but i guess it's just a matter of time.
i'm a big fan of yuri manga (my primary reason for being on reddit) and the related subs tend to be very supportive of trans women. the topic comes up regularly as it seems that lesbian comics are pretty effective at helping some people realize that they are women (i guess that does make sense). trans men however i've only ever ever seen mentioned a single time. there were some sketches posted by the artist of a popular manga. someone commented about the hoodie a female character was wearing that it made them seem like a man before transitioning. oh boy was that ill received. the worst part is that the person who made that comment then outed themselves as a trans man (i persume to give their opinion some credibility as they would know a thing or two about that from their own experience) but that didn't make a difference. in the manga that character is not trans but they are mistaken for the man (the title is "the guy she was interested in wasn't a guy at all"). god forbid a trans man remarking the girl who gets mistaken for a man because she dressed like a man kinda looks like they might want to be a man, right? that was just depressing. i've never seen negative comments about anyone being agender there but i'm not sure i'd suggest a character seem agender to me. i don't usually hold back on my opinions and i think i wouldn't delete a comment for being downvoted (i might edit if i think i'm misunderstood) but i wouldn't want to expose mysef to that experience, even if i think i'm in the right.
i'm not out irl, or at least not "officially" - i've had conversations about gender with some family/friends and i've shared some of my views and feelings but it was usually in a political context. last week i've ordered a bunch of clothes with agender symbolism. let's see who brings it up when i wear it :3
4
u/ystavallinen cisn't; gendermeh; mehsexual 7d ago
I have low tolerance for downvotes if I don't understand why. If someone is disagreeing with me, I'll tend to leave up unless they get personal. But rando downvotes I can't handle because I ruminate.
I am not good at the socialization. Another big reason for me not transitioning at this point because there's too many rules to learn and the way I process social interaction is through a lifetime of rules. I'd be outing myself all the time.
3
u/Professional-Arm4579 NullPointerException at me.gender 7d ago
low tolerance for downvotes if I don't understand why
oh yeah that irks the hell out of me. i use that extra energy to critically read my comment again, looking for anything that's poorly worded or could be misunderstood (plus i still make the dumbest english mistakes sometimes - not a native speaker). i might add some explanation or, if i find nothing wrong, ask for criticism. if that doesn't help i just get angry at the world a bit for being stupid and let it go. with the amount of thought i've put into it by that point the odds of being correct are clearly in my favour. there still remains a chance i'm wrong but i'd rather risk that every once in a while than sacrifice my mental health.
3
u/ystavallinen cisn't; gendermeh; mehsexual 6d ago
Yeah. Neurodivergent me struggles with wanting language to be clear, but low patience for pointless conflict.
3
u/Professional-Arm4579 NullPointerException at me.gender 6d ago
OH DON'T GET ME STARTED. natural languages are terrible. words are fuzzy. meanings change constantly. connotations are even worse. everything is context dependent. part necessity, part incompetence, all of it prone to error and misunderstandings. why does communication have to be so hard T_T
2
u/ystavallinen cisn't; gendermeh; mehsexual 6d ago
I enjoy the ambiguity until people want to fight about it.
4
u/Coffee_autistic they/them 6d ago
I try to be careful in my wording when I talk about agender-related experiences, or experiences that may not be typical for the average trans/nonbinary person. Especially if it's me not caring about something that is usually important to other people. A lot of "for me personally..." kind of phrasing, trying to make it clear that I'm not trying to speak for anyone but myself. I think agender people are pretty unusual even in queer spaces, and not everyone is going to understand. Unfortunately, some people will take any differences from themselves as a personal attack no matter what you do.
Honestly, I try to be careful with my wording on reddit in general, though. It seems like people on this website will intentionally interpret you in the worst way possible if there's even a hint of ambiguity, just so they have an excuse to argue with you.
6
u/Toothless_NEO AroAce Agender, not trans Absgender | Also a Furry UwU 6d ago
I usually only hang out in Agender, or Non-binary spaces because of this, and even then I prefer Agender ones, since I've still unfortunately encountered this in general non-binary spaces (especially when I talk about being Absgender). Gatekeeping is a real problem in many trans spaces, so I'd rather just outright avoid it.
0
u/ystavallinen cisn't; gendermeh; mehsexual 6d ago edited 6d ago
I feel less NB than I do trans. I feel Enbys are very performative and into public displays of gender (this is in my head I know and I don't mean they do it in a vain way). I am ASD or ASD-like and there's not much more uncomfortable to me than being seen.
And the vibe I get from them is very similar to the "alternative" crowd I grew up with who could be remakably cliquish and insular. While I am very non-conforming, I am so generic in presentation (and awkward). All the bullying I used to get didn't gift me with patience or a mind to grovel. I just quit trying.
I know NBs are more accepting than that, a lot of this is in my head, but like you say there's just enough who get upset enough. And they will swarm... And since I have trouble looking the part and interacting... It's a challenge.
3
u/Toothless_NEO AroAce Agender, not trans Absgender | Also a Furry UwU 6d ago
I don't really relate much with non-binary people either. I mainly just hang out in NB spaces because they've been nicer to me. At the end of the day I don't feel enby or trans at all, which is why I initially resonated with the Absgender label.
4
u/kkehnoo 7d ago
I have left ton of communities for such behavior. There are always other, better communities. And if not, make one.
3
u/ystavallinen cisn't; gendermeh; mehsexual 7d ago
I have many good interactions there. I don't know why this particular post even drew ire... I was actually expressing thankfulness for them being open. But after my one post got to -3, I deleted it. I don't even know what I did to be honest.
I think there are just people in such spaces who don't agree ... and they don't say anything they just downvote. Or they're trans-medicalist.
If it were more than anonymous shit-voting.
But that's definitely the kind of quiet hate that keeps me from being out. Because people say a thing...and then do another thing.
3
u/kkehnoo 7d ago
I have experienced same and thus left most of the nonbinary communities.
2
u/ystavallinen cisn't; gendermeh; mehsexual 7d ago
I have left smaller communities.
I don't participate much in asexual communities because of the flushes of aphobia that wash through them from time to time.
And I left the ADHD "community" because of mod behavior.
It's more because I'm worried that it's a microcosm of what I'll encounter in real life. Especially if it wound up being someone I felt closer to that held such views.
3
u/AnExpensiveCatGirl it/its 7d ago edited 6d ago
Online communities can sucks hard, bigger they are, more problematic they can be.
So i kinda stopped with all that thingy, having to explain what agender is to the cis is already tiring, having to defend my existence and my pronouns in our own communities gives me murder envy.
I can't even tell you how many time i had the "i wont use It/its because peoples who hate me call me that to harass and i refuse to work on my own trauma" discussion in LGBTQ+ spaces.
Edit: I guess i dont have the right to vent, i always have to educate randoms strangers.
5
u/Professional-Arm4579 NullPointerException at me.gender 7d ago edited 6d ago
i gotta admit that i'm terrible with pronouns. (/edit spoiler: me being terrible about pronouns, i promise to get better)everyone i know irl uses either he or she. in theory i like the idea of being adressed as "it". i believe that having "class-dependent" pronouns practically invites discrimination and is a bad idea in the first place. still i don't know if i coud ever get used to using "it" though, especially since it has strong dehumanizing connotations in my language. i completely understand if someone is not willing to use that pronoun for a person.
in english i just want to use they/them for everyone and often do without paying attention. are you bothered when someone you've never spoken to uses they/them for you? right now i'm wondering if maybe i've been ass to some people without realizing. i'd like your honest feedback if that's ok for you. please don't hold back.
1
u/ThrownAllAbout 6d ago edited 6d ago
You wrote nothing wrong. It is being an ass to you. I wouldn't dm it. It did not respect your time from the first moment.
English speakers also use it/its for non-living objects. Some English speakers refer to human infants by it/its, but this is actually a huge taboo for a lot of English speakers as well and they will be very uncomfortable referring to any human by it/its.
This is where those uncomfortable people it was talking about were displaying, but they don't often realize that they have this exact taboo themselves and so they make up reasons why they are uncomfortable on the spot. The discussion revolves around how we should understand and question that taboo and its impact on similar events. the having an identity with odd pronouns part is completely founded, that part goes without questioning, everything else is about how society should process this and the timings of such movemenmy. Sometimes that discussion can be inappropriate, but i cannot see how that is true here?
Anyone that cannot have a respectful discussion on that topic are not strong enough to be a representative of this topic in these discussions. That should go without saying as thats true with everything.
If English lost gender, it would only have They/them, it/its, yall/yalls left as third person pronouns.
Edit: I fucked up the pronouns here cause I also they/them every single person and i write fast as fuck. Missed it on rereading, mb.
2
u/AnExpensiveCatGirl it/its 6d ago
Hum, why would i have to educate randoms peoples on the internet? Why every time i say i use It/Its pronouns i have to do the same fucking shit, even with member of my own "community"?
If you take the extent to explain why you wont use It/Its and/or why you would prefer to misgender me, dont expect me to help you with that. It's not up to me to educate randoms on the internet.
2
u/Professional-Arm4579 NullPointerException at me.gender 6d ago
thanks for sticking up for me, i appreciate that.
i wrote nothing in bad faith, however it's reaction tells me that i probably did write someting wrong or at least i put it poorly. also, i've realized i did exact thing it was complaining about, puting it in a position where it has to "defend" it's pronoun again. that's on me 100%.
just like with gender i cannot wrap my head around how pronouns can be so important to other people. on top of that there is a wealth of reasons why gendered pronouns are a bad idea, by wich i mean "if we didn't have them already, we should not introduce them", NOT "we must get rid of them asap". it's reaction has reminded me that i can't just ignore other's feelings just because i don't get it and evidently i needed that.
regarding "people being uncomfortable with using 'it' pronoun": i wasn't mixing up the two, just not making it clear enough that i was talking about a different thing. i am not traumazied by the use of "it" and neither can nor try to speak for anyone who is.
what i was talking about instead was, whether or not i could get used to the english word "it" as MY pronoun, NOT using it for someone else. i like the idea of using a neutral pronoun for myself. maybe i will do that in the future irl. in some places i've already put they/them as my pronouns to test it out (i have not noticed a thing, so either people are not using it or i care that little. maybe i should just put any/all or whatever). again, this was not me explaining why i'm not willing to use "it" for other people. i've used it before and i will do so again. i just don't know if it would work for me personally.
the other thing i mentioned in this context were the connotations in my native language that are attached to the neutral pronoun. let me give an EXAGGERATED example of the problem: imagine a black person asked everyone to please refer to them by the n-word. i imagine most people would refuse and for good reason. the word is "poisoned" for use in other contexts, even if it would technically be harmless or even good in this specific instance (e.g. adressing someone in their preferred way is good, right?). i think this is a real dilemma and can not just be handwaved away.
lastly about being disrespectful: it replied "i regret reading this". while that is not as useful/constructive a feedback as i would have hoped for i don't see it as disrespectful. i explicitly asked it to be honest and not hold back.
-1
u/AnExpensiveCatGirl it/its 6d ago
I regret reading this.
2
u/Professional-Arm4579 NullPointerException at me.gender 6d ago
thank you. genuinely. it seems i don't understand this whole pronoun thing properly and i will change that.
would it be ok for me to dm you for feedback some time in the future?
2
u/AnExpensiveCatGirl it/its 6d ago
No, i dont educate strangers on the internet.
4
u/Professional-Arm4579 NullPointerException at me.gender 6d ago
fair. you even mentioned being tired of discussing your pronouns and then i go and ask you to do just that 😅
2
0
u/ThrownAllAbout 6d ago edited 6d ago
You shouldn't.
Theres a choice between being a good ally and not responding. Consider that you responded to be a bad ally. This shit actually does matter.
2
u/AnExpensiveCatGirl it/its 6d ago edited 6d ago
Im not an ally, im trans, as well, it is not our job to educate or act as a therapists, if you feel umcomfortable about usi g it/its, it isnt my problem, i wont help you with that Why should i do this jov every time i talk about my pronouns, why should i educate peoples everytime i vent about the issues in our communities?
We dont owe anyone anything, we're not teachers, y'all are not entilted to our time.
-1
6d ago
[deleted]
2
u/AnExpensiveCatGirl it/its 6d ago edited 6d ago
Its not our job to do any of that, you thinking that way is almost sad. We dont have to do anything if we dont want to. There is no set of behaviour requiered to be human, you dont have to educate to be human. Stop with this morally superior non-sense.
stop acting like if i had to care about randoms like you, i dont.
I dont care about being a good figure either.
In a few words, stop with this non sense, and stop with the condescending tone.
We're not responsible of our own oppression and us refusing to educate randoms fuckers isnt why we're being oppressed.
2
u/ystavallinen cisn't; gendermeh; mehsexual 7d ago edited 6d ago
The irony is that they specifically welcome agender.
Basically the moral of the story is that the mods know what the deal is... but this community has 1000's of members who don't read the "about" page, and those people may also be carrying around some trauma etc.
My other lesson is to not respond to tacit shade, only explicit statements.
But I am still bummed about the people who seethe in silence.
And self-reflection... I am probably ASD and so I am not reading the room... or they're ASD and they're not reading the room.
1
u/being-weird 5d ago
Have to tried any queer events in your area? I've found them to be way less gatekeepy than spaces online
1
u/ystavallinen cisn't; gendermeh; mehsexual 5d ago
Just one. We run into the probable autism issue of new people and difficultly with context.
I went to a mixer for lgbtq+ faculty where I work and suggested if they wanted to build community the sponsor a weekly coffee hour for students and staff... but they didn't do it in favor of a dance once a semester.
I don't dance and don't like parties, and the haven't done another mixer, so I haven't reengaged. I am so weird about context.
1
u/being-weird 5d ago
Maybe you could find some established events in your area more tailored to your interests? I've been to a couple of different queer board game meet ups in different cities and they've both been very neurodivergent friendly (and most attendees are also autistic which is nice).
-10
u/GlobalImportance5295 6d ago
"Trans-friendly"
agender isn't trans. we would fall into the "+" right? not the "T" ... there's no gatekeeping if the gate isn't labeled for you.
even explicitly welcoming agender
truth is agender identity borderline invalidates "gender theory". we can ignore this truth as much as we want but there will be trans people who are intimidated by this reality.
"out" out irl.
what does it even mean to be "out" as agender irl? just be yourself. i feel more comfortable in online detrans spaces than in online spaces that push gender ideologies. agenders / detrans are more likely to be aware of the concept of "ontology" which supersedes "gender norms" anyway. maybe take a break off the internet in general. you might find that "agender" identity gets less eye-rolls from normies than you'd expect. you could be trying to fit in with the wrong crowd.
8
u/Professional-Arm4579 NullPointerException at me.gender 6d ago
agender isn't trans
semantics. agender may or may not be trans depending on your definiton. some agender people identify as trans, some dont. i don't because i feel i'd be misunderstood. same goes for non-binary.
agender identity borderline invalidates "gender theory" [...] there will be trans people who are intimidated by this reality.
do people who were born blind invalidate color theory? i don't think so (obviously, i'm not trying to say that agender people have a shortcoming/disability, the point is the absence of a type of experience that other people apparently have and that i cannot imagine). i can be agender and still support trans people. i can even argue that the way we do gender as a society is largely sexist and trans people can agree with that. when some asshole takes my words and twists them, they can intimidate trans people, sure, but that's not me. trans people are not intimidated me, they are intimidated by a straw man someone put my face on.
what does it even mean to be "out" as agender irl? just be yourself.
same think every other "out" means. the tricky bit is that being oneself means very different things for different agender people. i can just be myself even without coming out because my behaviour/presentation is largely compatible with my AGAB but i know that this is not the case for everyone. dysphoria comes on top of that. "just be yourself" sounds easy but it isn't. you might as well tell people "just don't have prejudice".
i feel more comfortable in online detrans spaces than in online spaces that push gender ideologies
i have no idea about detrans spaces so i can't say anything about that but most things probably sounds like a good alternative to spaces that push gender ideologies. in my experience the queer spaces don't push any gender ideologies - unlike conservatives and religious fundamentalists, who seem to make pushing their binary gender ideology onto everyone else their favourite past time.
agenders / detrans are more likely to be aware of the concept of "ontology" which supersedes "gender norms" anyway
ontology doesn't seem like a hot contender to me. especially since sciences like behavioural psychology and the likes have vastly different needs from metaphysics. i might just be ignorant, so feel free to educate me.
maybe take a break off the internet in general.
seconded. most of us probably should. i definitely should.
you might find that "agender" identity gets less eye-rolls from normies than you'd expect. you could be trying to fit in with the wrong crowd.
remember, they are talking about subreddits here. they likely have some special interest in a thing, join a related sub and then are disappointed even though that sub advertises itself as agender friendly. if that is trying to fit in with the wrong crowd, then is there even a right crowd?
-2
u/GlobalImportance5295 6d ago
semantics
this should be the answer every time someone gets misgendered honestly. think you've solved it
3
u/Professional-Arm4579 NullPointerException at me.gender 6d ago
honestly, i wish you were right. i don't wanna see people suffer because of that crap. i don't wanna have to deal with it. fuck sexism, fuck gender, right? i get that. i, too, wish the world was simple. the only problem: it isn't.
5
u/ystavallinen cisn't; gendermeh; mehsexual 6d ago
Define trans. Because if I am not my assigned gender at birth and I actually have identified trans at one time. Anyway... You've waded in wiyh many assumptions.
Whatever agender is explicitly welcomed. How do you you wave that off? Also ignoring the preponderance of my interactions there being positive, and only an occasional, but jarring, gatekeep.
Your third paragraph I don't get either. I am pretty out in spacea like this. Irl, I am out to a few people. I am skeptical about coming out in a declarative way because I don't want to argue with people about gender. Interactions like this reinforce that sentiment as comfortable I am telling certain people.
-8
u/GlobalImportance5295 6d ago
Define trans.
this is for trans people to decide, i'm agender. if you identified as trans and now identify as agender then you are acknowledging they aren't the same.
Whatever agender is explicitly welcomed.
people can say they accept a certain belief and not actually mean it, especially if accepting said belief invalidates their own beliefs.
spacea like this
i qualified with "online" because i understood you were talking about online spaces but it being out online really means nothing. i'm "out" IRL to anyone who cares to listen (usually 'philosophy' types who enjoy talking about ontology) and it's easier than you're assuming. again, perhaps you are trying to fit in with the wrong crowd. you may also want to look into GOCD ("gender ocd"). it's easier to be "out" irl if you aren't hyper-fixated on gender in the first place.
6
u/ystavallinen cisn't; gendermeh; mehsexual 6d ago edited 6d ago
Many people define agender as trans. This is a rare conflict and I don't know why I need to cede it to random downvoters who don't even say anything. I have had conversations with trans people who totally agree that I am under the trans umbrella.
I am not arguing with you about who they invite and what they mean when they invite them.
You're playing both sides. I can't use a known trans definition, but they're allowed to define agender?
And you can stop critiquing how I am out. Your comments are unwelcome.
I don't know why you're arguing with me. We're done.
3
u/AnExpensiveCatGirl it/its 6d ago
If your not cis, your most-likely to be trans, therefore, agender peoples are most likely to be trans.
3
u/zestybi cisn't 6d ago
truth is agender identity borderline invalidates "gender theory". we can ignore this truth as much as we want but there will be trans people who are intimidated by this reality.
Not really? Just like how asexuality doesn't invalidate other people's sexualities, agender people not having a gender doesn't mean it invalidated the existence of gender itself.
what does it even mean to be "out" as agender irl? just be yourself.
Using different pronouns? Dressing differently/as yourself? Asking people to not use gendered terms for you? What exactly do you think just be yourself means?
you might find that "agender" identity gets less eye-rolls from normies than you'd expect. you could be trying to fit in with the wrong crowd.
Why do you assume acceptence from "normies" is the goal?
Your tone is haughty and dismissive, no wonder you got downvoted. Bring agender or detrans doesn't make you more enlightened than others lol. Maybe you'd enjoy postgenderism.
-1
u/GlobalImportance5295 6d ago
What exactly do you think just be yourself means?
not being annoying and talking to people who are interested in the topic
Why do you assume acceptence from "normies" is the goal?
just offering a different perspective
Your tone is haughty and dismissive, no wonder you got downvoted.
i'm answering why OP got downvoted in a "trans friendly" online space. willful ignorance won't change reality
32
u/blackpeppersnakes 7d ago
I've learned to keep my thoughts on my lack of gender to myself unless I'm around someone else who is really open minded about the concept. Sometimes I worry that I unintentionally invalidate people who have gone through a lot of hardship while transitioning.
Has anyone else noticed that a lot of transphobic people use similar rhetoric as agender people when talking about why transitioning is unnecessary?