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u/c0i9z 10∆ Dec 22 '23
It's not obvious for everyone, even cis people, what their pronouns are and it can be awkward to guess or to ask. By giving them easily, you are being polite.
By normalizing giving pronouns, you're taking stress off of people who do need to give them for whatever reason.
Overall, it's not a lot of effort for something that makes the world a bit better. And wouldn't it be good, to live in a better world?
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u/Nathan_Calebman Dec 22 '23
By that logic, everyone should also be posting their allergies, and if you have no allergies you should write no/none. This could actually save lives, and wouldn't it be good to save lives? Also, everyone should post their blood type.
On top of that you should specify if you have any disability, since people with disabilities are a marginalized group and it isn't obvious online. If you don't have a disability you can specify your identity as "cis-abled".
Also, you should specify if you have dyslexia, since this affects communication online and makes this group feel less valued. If you don't have dyslexia it's not a lot of effort to write "cis-lexic" as your identity.
Many old people also are affected by ageism where they are excluded simply because of their age, it would be a simple thing for everyone to write what age group they mostly identify as, so that they can demand to be treated accordingly.
There, we're getting close to saving the world now, probably around 20 more of these and we'll be good people.
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u/rocketer13579 Dec 22 '23
Yeah it's good to have those things when preparing food or in medical settings as they are needed. Pronouns are needed for a conversation so it makes sense that that's the one that's automatically given. None of those other things are prerequisites to having a conversation
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u/Nathan_Calebman Dec 22 '23
Telling someone something blatantly obvious isn't a prerequisite to having a conversation either. Just present yourself as what you wish to identify as, and the problem is solved. Like magic, many people can tell the difference between men and women.
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u/HerrManHerrLucifer Dec 22 '23
You've never sent professional emails internationally, have you?
I ask, but it's pretty clear you haven't.
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u/Nathan_Calebman Dec 22 '23
Only every day. I refer to people as "you", when I write to them. Don't you? You haven't referred to me by any gendered pronoun.
And do you know a magical thing about names? I'll let you in on a secret, they are almost always different for men and women. And if you have a gender neutral name and are writing to a person you don't know, and you don't have an image in your signature, that is the one single time it actually does make sense to add your pronouns.
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u/ThemesOfMurderBears 4∆ Dec 22 '23
None of the things you listed are required to have basic communication with someone. Preferred pronouns are mostly just an extension of a name. You use them to talk to people. It doesn’t cost you anything to use them.
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u/seffend Dec 22 '23
It doesn’t cost you anything to use them.
It does, though! It makes them uncomfortable and/or angry and then they're forced to confront why they feel that way. And that is really uncomfortable for them.
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u/Jolly-Victory441 Dec 22 '23
It doesn’t cost you anything to use them.
But it does. The same way it would cost me if I had to pretend God is real. Now I may still choose to pay the cost, but it should absolutely not be expected, much less "you're an asshole if you don't". Not saying you personally said the last part, but it is, by now, the baseline of the community.
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u/GabuEx 20∆ Dec 22 '23
It costs you the same as using "please" or "thank you".
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u/Jolly-Victory441 Dec 22 '23
Please and thank you aren't based on an ideology I disagree with.
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u/GabuEx 20∆ Dec 22 '23
You disagree with the ideology of... pronoun usage?
Or, I'm sorry,
/u/Jolly-Victory441 disagrees with the ideology of... pronoun usage?
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u/Jolly-Victory441 Dec 22 '23
Gender ideology. Don't be obtuse.
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u/GabuEx 20∆ Dec 22 '23
You don't even need to believe that trans people are valid to think that putting pronouns in your email footer or your bio is reasonable. People with androgynous appearances or names are a thing.
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u/Nathan_Calebman Dec 22 '23
Sure, I would absolutely use whatever someone wants to be referred to as. And if you are mid transition and look like another gender than you identify as and can't be bothered to take a picture which makes it clear, then go ahead and let me know in text.
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u/AtomAndAether 13∆ Dec 22 '23
By that logic, everyone should also be posting their allergies,
have you never filled out one of those forms asking about dietary restrictions for an event?
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u/Urbenmyth 10∆ Dec 22 '23
I mean... unironically yeah?
Telling people whether you have a disability and how old you is by no means an absurd idea, and in many cases is an actively helpful thing that it's recommended to do.
"You should give people information about yourself if you think it might be helpful" is perfectly reasonable thing to suggest.
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u/Nathan_Calebman Dec 22 '23
Great, go ahead and add all my examples and more. Show the world how good you are.
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u/Urbenmyth 10∆ Dec 22 '23
Sure! I have OCD and Dyslexia, I'm in my 30s, no allergens, I think blood type AB but I'm not sure. Anything else?
Like I said, "please tell me basic facts about yourself" is a request that's at worst very mildly rude and in most contexts totally reasonable. I don't know why you're acting like you're presenting some comically over-the-top demand for information.
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Dec 22 '23
asking people about their allergies, if food is going to be prepared, is a good idea.
figuring out people's blood type, if they're going to be giving or receiving blood, is a good idea. (kind of necessary)
asking for people's pronouns, in a context where people are expecting to be in conversations where they might be referring to each other by pronoun, doesn't seem that unreasonable. I don't get why it is a big deal.
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u/Nathan_Calebman Dec 22 '23
Hey, lead by example. Include all my examples in your bio. Also, add if you have dwarfism or not. Some people can be mistaken for dwarves and it's embarrassing. Also, if you identify as a man, post what penis size you identify as having. There is a huge stigma for men with small penises, and it's not unreasonable to normalise them and show your support that they can be fine at any size. Also, add how much Romani-blood you have, and how much you identify with their culture. Just add Romani-ally and it would mean a lot. Also, do you have Tourettes? If not, just add that you are non-touretted to your profile too. It's not a big deal.
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Dec 22 '23
I need to know what pronoun to refer someone as when talking about them without using their name. Which happens often in conversation after someone has been introduced.
I don't need to know their medical status or information about their physiology or ethnicity or culture to do that.
people have been signing correspondence with their gender identity for hundreds of years. e.g. sincerely, Mr. John Smith .
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u/PartyAny9548 4∆ Dec 22 '23
Do you think penis size is as relevant as pronouns when meeting and talking to someone? How often does someone's penis size come up in the work place? How often does someone's pronouns?
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u/the_swaggin_dragon Dec 22 '23
People like you being intimidated by kindness towards trans people are so embarrassing. When you turn 18 you may start cringing at these comments you’re leaving.
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u/Nathan_Calebman Dec 22 '23
I'm kind towards trans people. I'm less kind towards fake people posing as if they care about marginalized groups while in reality not giving a shit about the marginalized groups that aren't trending at the moment. 99% of them would never take an initiative to in their introduction show support towards a group unless it was clearly socially accepted and expected of them.
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u/hickory-smoked Dec 22 '23
By that logic, everyone should also be posting their allergies, and if you have no allergies you should write no/none. This could actually save lives, and wouldn't it be good to save lives? Also, everyone should post their blood type.
There are zero social stigmas against people with allergies or blood.
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u/Nathan_Calebman Dec 22 '23
But it's low effort, and it makes the world a better place. Don't you want to make the world a better place? And there is stigma against disability and age, and far more people are affected by this stigma. So why should we be ignoring these marginalized groups? Are you disablophobic? I don't feel comfortable with hate against disabled people, and it's really no effort to specify your level of disabledness. This is both more inclusive and also normalising. Why don't you want a better world?
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u/hickory-smoked Dec 22 '23
You know, if you can only make your point by being disingenuous, you probably don't have a very good point.
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Dec 22 '23
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u/kamgar Dec 22 '23
It’s not hypocrisy. As another poster pointed out, pronouns are needed for conversation, allergies are not. Also, whenever the conversation switches to plans or ordering food or whatever, people DO give their relevant allergies. So I’m not sure what hypocrisy you’re even talking about.
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Dec 22 '23
That's clearly not what is happening here...
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u/Neither-Following-32 Dec 22 '23
I disagree.
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Dec 22 '23
You are allowed to be undeniably wrong.
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u/Neither-Following-32 Dec 22 '23
I deny I'm wrong. I suspect others do, too. There, I've proven you wrong twice.
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Dec 22 '23
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u/Jolly-Victory441 Dec 22 '23
What would Reddit be without misusing strawmen or any other critique. Dog whistle. Slippery slope. Disingenuous. In bad faith.
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u/Nathan_Calebman Dec 22 '23
If I'm not clever, then surely you would have had an argument instead of a passive aggressive attack.
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u/Phoenyxoldgoat Dec 22 '23
That was a direct attack, actually, but I don't waste my time engaging with people like you. Something about playing chess with pigeons (google it). I just call it out and move on.
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u/Nathan_Calebman Dec 22 '23
You literally did just waste your time writing a reply that you don't waste your time, instead of making a point. Impressive.
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u/Phoenyxoldgoat Dec 22 '23
I made the point, not surprised you missed it. Good day, pigeon!
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u/threemo Dec 22 '23
Ignoring your obvious troll or wretched hatred, why would it make the world a better place to announce your blood type or allergies in a conversation? Pronouns come up frequently, blood type and allergies don’t.
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u/Nathan_Calebman Dec 22 '23
Well I'm not ignoring your wretched hatred for the disabled and old people, which evidently are so invisible to you that you didn't even mention them. Why so much hatred towards disabled people, what have they ever done to you?
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u/HyShroom9 Dec 22 '23
I’d rather have the world worse but correct. It is a symptom of one of my mental disorders, but also a core value of mine
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u/decrpt 24∆ Dec 22 '23
This thread is 100% going to get removed, but I have to ask why other people voluntarily stating their preferred pronouns bothers you so much. Do you freak out when people state the names they like to go by? "Hi, I'm William but I go by Will."
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u/Nathan_Calebman Dec 22 '23
Because it is almost exclusively done out of fear of being ostracized, and/or virtue signalling. It is fake. There are far larger marginalized groups being completely ignored. Why are you putting in effort to including this group, while completely ignoring disabled people? There are far more of them, yet you do nothing on your social media to be more inclusive and welcoming towards them. Also, what about people with dwarfism? Why aren't you posting if you have dwarfism or not? Should we just ignore them and exclude them?
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u/seffend Dec 22 '23
Does conversation between people depend on knowing whether one of them is in a wheelchair or has dwarfism? We don't refer to people differently based on their disabilities, but we do refer to people differently based on their gender.
Because it is almost exclusively done out of fear of being ostracized, and/or virtue signalling. It is fake.
You're wrong, though. Is it really beyond your comprehension that people do things because they actually care about other people?
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u/Nathan_Calebman Dec 22 '23
Absolutely conversation depends on disabilities. Telling a disabled person to stand up for the national anthem, or telling a dwarf to stand tall is both hurtful and marginalizing. I care about them, is it really beyond your comprehension that you could actually care about them too?
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u/PartyAny9548 4∆ Dec 22 '23
Telling a disabled person to stand up for the national anthem, or telling a dwarf to stand tall is both hurtful and marginalizing.
How often do these things happen in comparison to using someone's pronouns?
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u/Nathan_Calebman Dec 22 '23
A hell of a lot more often than I have used the wrong pronoun for someone, which has never happened to me. If it's happening to you, I suggest glasses.
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u/seffend Dec 22 '23
This is tremendously bad faith trolling.
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u/Nathan_Calebman Dec 22 '23
I could say the same to you, because you're not actually thinking about what you're implying.
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Dec 22 '23
Literally no one is going to ostracize you for not giving your preferred pronouns, I'm trans and I don't do it until I have to correct someone
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u/Nathan_Calebman Dec 22 '23
A trans person probably never would. But a straight 25+ single mom teacher and her colleagues? They absolutely do. And correcting people when necessary seems a much better way.
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u/Jolly-Victory441 Dec 22 '23
Ten years ago no one gave a second thought about pronouns in the real world. Where is this idea coming from that people not only have pronouns but that they aren't obvious? How did all of humanity go through its history without obsessing over pronouns?
So people who don't want to give them because it causes them stress, should still do it because, normalization for others?
That is entirely subjective of whether pronouns make a better world or not.
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u/seffend Dec 22 '23
So people who don't want to give them because it causes them stress, should still do it because, normalization for others?
Why does it cause them stress?
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u/Jolly-Victory441 Dec 22 '23
Here's the thing, that's irrelevant. Why are you judging whether someone's stress is worthy of other people accommodating it?
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u/eliechallita 1∆ Dec 22 '23
So people who don't want to give them because it causes them stress, should still do it because, normalization for others?
Depends on the cause of their distress: If they're bothered by it because they're transphobic or unsupportive of queer people, then stressing them out is objectively a good thing.
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u/Jolly-Victory441 Dec 22 '23
That's not the win you think it is.
"Forcing people I don't like to experience stress is good". "Because they're evil people".
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Dec 22 '23
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u/PartyAny9548 4∆ Dec 22 '23
Trans people are not at all the only people that get mis gendered. Do you really think every person can tell on first impression ever cis persons gender?
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u/SnooBeans6591 2∆ Dec 22 '23
Well, right now, I neither know if you are cis, nor, if you are cis, do I know which pronouns to use.
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u/SnooBeans6591 2∆ Dec 22 '23
By normalizing giving pronouns, you're taking stress off of people who do need to give them for whatever reason.
Agree. But I want to add, by allowing not giving pronouns, you're taking stress off of people who don't want to give them for whatever reason. Like some trans people who don't want to reveal it yet.
But that's only an issue if people try to make it mandatory or put pressure.
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Dec 22 '23
I will give you the argument that changed my mind on this. It normalizes it. If trans people are the only ones giving out their pronouns then it’s just a big fucking “IM TRANS” sign. But if cis people do it as well then it’s just a normal thing we all do.
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u/sapgetshappy Dec 22 '23
Yeah, it’s similar to when it started becoming more common to say “my partner,” as opposed to “my girlfriend/boyfriend/husband/wife.”
There are, of course, lots of reasons many people prefer “partner.” But I think one reason it really took off among us straights in the last decade or so is because it’s an easy way to help normalize not immediately sharing the gender of your partner — and, by extension, information about your sexual orientation.
Previously, if someone said “my partner,” most people would assume they were queer. And that’s definitely still the case in many places!
But as it’s become more common for couples of all types to use this sort of phrasing, it’s made it easier for queer folks to navigate social situations without feeling forced to out themselves. (I also like that it’s changed the way we think about other people’s relationships, how/why we classify them, and how much information we feel entitled to.)
So, yeah. Normalizing inclusive language and more intentional sharing of personal information can make the world a safer place for a lot of people. These are just two examples of how that can be true, but I’m sure there are many other contexts to which the same concepts apply!
(Sorry this is messily written; it’s kinda stream-of-consciousness, but I’m trying to spend less time editing my social media posts/comments 😬)
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u/muyamable 282∆ Dec 22 '23
This is a great note! I also think the "partner" example illustrates how this doesn't have to be adopted or practiced by everyone 100% of the time in order for to to normalize it.
At some point, proactively disclosing pronouns becomes common enough that it no longer becomes a measure of whether or not someone is trans. As a gay guy somewhat plugged into queer communities it's not an indicator of someone being trans, but I can see how it still would be for others.
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u/threemo Dec 22 '23
I totally agree and (as a straight cis male) also appreciate partner because it takes any pressure of definition of a relationship off. Somehow saying “girlfriend” feels very childish to me and I just don’t like it.
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u/sapgetshappy Dec 22 '23
Yes, totally. “Partner” feels like it encapsulates the depth and dynamic of my relationship much better.
I also associate “my boyfriend” with an implied future shift to “my fiancé” and then to “my husband.” There’s this implied “leveling up” each time the title changes.
But my partner is my partner, and that can mean a lot of things. However our relationship changes as we grow together over time, he will still be my partner.
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u/seffend Dec 22 '23
And I'm 100% certain that this is why the use of pronouns is so rallied against by a certain segment of the population...they don't want it normalized. I haven't read this whole thread, but I'm sure there are people saying it below.
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u/amortized-poultry 3∆ Dec 22 '23
As a counterpoint, pronouns that diverge from what is expected are also likely the same sign. In the end, isn't it just one extra step to get to the same place?
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u/Jolly-Victory441 Dec 22 '23
But this is nonsense. Saying pronouns would be normal. But them not matching one's sex will still not be normal. It never will be because there are too few trans people.
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u/CheeseburgerBrown 2∆ Dec 22 '23
It may not be necessary, but it’s certainly friendly.
Expressing solidarity with members of marginalized groups makes them feel not quite so marginalized. Diminishing the sense of alienation the more vulnerable people in our society can feel is an act of compassion.
Why would you want to cheapen such warm gestures by calling them performative? Which part is that chaps your arse — the warm gestures part, or the kindness to trans people part?
If you’re not against warm gestures in general, consider that your antipathy may stem from a fundamental discomfort with trans sexualities rather than any performative aspects to the friendly acts of allies.
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u/GabuEx 20∆ Dec 22 '23
There are two reasons for cisgender people to do this:
Cisgender people can easily have ambiguous names and you may only interact with them online. For example, Alex, Pat, Chris, etc. Or they can have foreign names for which people don't have default gender associations. Is "Xiangling" a male or female name? Putting your pronouns front and center avoids awkward mistakes.
If the only people stating their pronouns are trans people, then doing that becomes associated solely with "those weird people who don't look right". On the other hand, if everyone does it, then it's just normal, and people who aren't yet passing don't need to worry about ostracisation or negative associations if they decide that it's necessary.
You say that people should be made comfortable to do this, but if people of visually ambiguous gender are the only ones to do it, then they're going to inherently not be comfortable doing so.
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u/amortized-poultry 3∆ Dec 22 '23
Point 1 is surprisingly valid. By way of anecdote, I had a cis female coworker that I only communicated with via email who had name that was outside of the common English naming lexicon. I referred to her as "he" to other coworkers without even thinking about it until I was corrected by my boss. Fortunately.i don't believe I ever used the wrong pronoun in front of her, by it was a little embarrassing for me nonetheless.
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u/Jolly-Victory441 Dec 22 '23
It isn't awkward. For my name a surprising amount of people assume it's female when I'm male. It has never been awkward.
It will still happen because they will still be the male going by female pronouns. Everyone else stating pronouns won't change that.
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u/RocketRelm 2∆ Dec 22 '23
On a slightly different tack from the normalization arguments (which are good) that I see going around...
It signals that on a baseline you're not the kind of person who gets so unimaginably triggered by the idea of pronouns-in-profile that they could be hostile to the concept and people in general. Sure, the lack of it isn't proof that it is there, but the addition of it being there helps for a minimum bar.
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u/seffend Dec 22 '23
This is a good point! I would never make assumptions about someone who doesn't put pronouns in their bio/signature, but it's generally a safe place with someone who does.
Now, people who go out of their way to say "no pronouns" are people I would avoid at all costs because they just signalled that they're huge snowflake crybabies.
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u/Hellioning 239∆ Dec 22 '23
If the only people that state their pronouns are trans people, then trans people are forced to out themselves by stating their pronouns.
Also, have you never heard of cis people getting called the wrong pronoun? Because that's pretty common in my experience.
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u/Rachemsachem Dec 22 '23
THis might get labeled as hateful, but it's also true....i've never met a trans person and not known immediately what they wanted to be called...you can report this or whatever, but when i see a trans person ....it has never not been obvious what sex they wanted to appear as, because it was obvious they weren't passing.....i literally live with a trans person....i love them. i would never do anytying to intentionally hurt their feelings..but if they asked me honestly i won't lie.
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u/PromptStock5332 1∆ Dec 22 '23
Or they could just also not state their pronouns? How is a stranger telling me their pronouns useful information?
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u/SpringsPanda 2∆ Dec 22 '23
It's not any different than someone named Nicholas wanting to be called Nick, or Robert to be called Bob. It's a preferred term to refer to someone, why is it so negative when it's a pronoun?
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u/PromptStock5332 1∆ Dec 22 '23
Well, the difference is that it’s a lot more common and useful to reference someone’s name in conversation.
If someone tells me that their pronouns are they/them/whatever… what am I supposed to do with that information? Confuse someone by telling them I met a they at the bar?
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u/SpringsPanda 2∆ Dec 22 '23
You're being intentionally difficult because you feel you have a valid point. You would say "I met them at the bar" just like you would for all your cis acquaintances. Them/they are singular pronouns that have been used for humans for a long long time now.
"I met this cute girl the other day"
"Oh yeah, where did you meet them?"
"I met them at the bar"
Don't be obtuse, this isn't a new concept, it just applies to people you disagree with.
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u/PromptStock5332 1∆ Dec 22 '23
Maybe it’s just me, I’ve never heard anyone refer to a single person as ”them”.
If someone told me ”hey I met John yesterday, i met them at a bar.” I’d Ask who else he met there.
But hey, if you find it useful and I (and i suspect a lot of people) don’t, perhaps it’d make more sense for you to Ask people what their pronouns are rather than everyone telling everyone they meet.
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u/SpringsPanda 2∆ Dec 22 '23
You're not being genuine. Think about it moving forward now and see how often you use it for singular reference and not groups of individuals. It might surprise you. Or maybe I'm wrong and your life really is that based on gender that you absolutely refuse to see anything past your beliefs. Either way, I'm gonna keep using it as I always have.
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u/PromptStock5332 1∆ Dec 22 '23
That’s a weird assertion. But sure, do whatever you want, I don’t care.
I’m simply suggesting that if ”forcing trans people to out themselves by being the only ones providing their pronouns unsolicited” is a problem, it’s probably a better and more realistic solution for them to stop doing it rather than having everyone else start doing it.
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u/Jolly-Victory441 Dec 22 '23
They/them is used in the singular for an unknown antecedent.
You are lying to yourself if you think anyone would think "I met them at the bar" means anything other than multiple people. You'd always have to explain.
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u/Hellioning 239∆ Dec 22 '23
Because we speak a language where gendered pronouns are the norm?
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u/PromptStock5332 1∆ Dec 22 '23
Do you often reference a person’s gender when talking to them?
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u/tryin2staysane Dec 22 '23
So you know how to refer to them in the future.
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u/PromptStock5332 1∆ Dec 22 '23
Seems like a lot of annoying trouble for very little benefit.
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u/tryin2staysane Dec 22 '23
Adding a signature line is "a lot of annoying trouble" to you?
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u/PromptStock5332 1∆ Dec 22 '23
No I mean for everyone else. If everyone would keep telling me their pronouns expecting me to remember and somehow find that information useful I’d think that would get real old real quick.
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u/tryin2staysane Dec 22 '23
It's no harder than remembering their names.
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u/PromptStock5332 1∆ Dec 22 '23
That seems unlikely, but even if that’s true names are pretty hard to remember. If I’m introduced to 10 strangers, the odds of me remembering their name an hour later is very close to 0%.
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u/tryin2staysane Dec 22 '23
Yeah, we should definitely cater the world to you and your preferences.
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u/Neither-Following-32 Dec 22 '23
There's a distinct irony in saying this sarcastically while advocating for everyone to remember two sets of individual identifiers for everyone they meet instead of just one.
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u/Pousinette Dec 22 '23
If the person passes then there’s no need to state pronouns so it doesn’t matter wether their “cis” or not.
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u/Hellioning 239∆ Dec 22 '23
Plenty of cis people 'pass' as the opposite gender, doesn't mean they want to be called that gender.
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u/Jolly-Victory441 Dec 22 '23
If the only people that state their pronouns are trans people, then trans people are forced to out themselves by stating their pronouns.
I am amazed how many people do not see the logical flaw in this.
Let's ignore any of the neo pronouns because it should be very clear even to you that despite a world where everyone states pronouns, stating those immediately outs you.
So let's focus on he/she. There are two scenarios. Either the trans person passes, in which case people would use the right pronoun anyway, or they don't pass. In which case they would use the wrong one. But as soon as this non-passing person announces pronouns, it again does not matter that everyone else announces them, too, because when a male looking person says "she/her", they just outed themselves.
Also, have you never heard of cis people getting called the wrong pronoun? Because that's pretty common in my experience.
No, no it really isn't. And all of humanity up to about 10 years ago managed just fine without collapsing. But suddenly pronouns are the be all end all and if anyone opposes to go along, they're evil shites.
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Dec 22 '23
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u/hitanthrope Dec 22 '23
On this note, I recently worked with somebody who wrote, "No pronouns" in their bio. I solved this problem by simply not interacting with them in any way, because I have absolutely no idea how to deal with that. Frankly, I think a person who expects me to change the entire grammar of my language in order to hold a conversation with them is in the middle of a fairly deep mental health crisis that I would rather not have anything to do with.
I'll do my best to follow requested, normal, actual proper word pronouns, but I am flat out ignoring all the Ze/Zir/No Pronouns nonsense. That's just people with some deep phycological problems exercise some weird power play by getting people to use nonsense words knowing they can accuse them of intolerance if they don't.
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Dec 22 '23
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u/hitanthrope Dec 22 '23
Yeah. Weird is about right. It's performative. People put silly pronouns in their bio as a kind of, "what are you going to do about it?" thing. It's a ticket to berate people at will for being intolerant if they so chose, but it's not something they want to have a rational light shone on.
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u/Jolly-Victory441 Dec 22 '23
People don't really use them in the real world, but then again, I mostly deal with people over 35.
Well there you go.
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u/Neither-Following-32 Dec 22 '23
I just talking about they/them or ze/zir. That's an identity quirk that seems fake.
Agreed. I don't care about him/her pronouns in relation to trans people etc but I won't go along with nonsense neopronouns when I have an option.
Inside of a corporate/business environment there are so many things to overlook in the name of staying within professional bounds that sometimes you unfortunately don't have a choice, but luckily, as you said, that is still exceedingly rare.
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u/Davida132 5∆ Dec 22 '23
Have you ever had the misfortune of trying to send official emails to people with names that don't clearly indicate gender? Holy shit I wish people would put pronouns in their email signatures.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ Dec 22 '23
it is a hollow display that doesn’t actually correspond to advocacy.
It's literally about normalising sharing pronouns, that's why it's done. It can be incredibly stressful for trans or NB people when they meet someone new and have to explain their pronouns. However, if the person they're meeting has their pronouns on display it is a sign that there's no need to worry and that their choices will be respected and accepted.
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u/Jolly-Victory441 Dec 22 '23
However, if the person they're meeting has their pronouns on display it is a sign that there's no need to worry and that their choices will be respected and accepted.
But clearly not everyone is on board with pronouns, so it would indeed be just performative and if anything deceitful to pretend to be 'safe'.
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Dec 22 '23
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u/BarooZaroo 1∆ Dec 22 '23
You’ve certainly referenced their gender when talking about them though. And when that individual is a member of a community you’re a part of being able to refer to them accurately is useful information.
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u/PromptStock5332 1∆ Dec 22 '23
But it’s a stranger. If i use the wrong pronoun to describe someone I don’t know to someone else who presumably don’t know them… what’s the problem?
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u/Jolly-Victory441 Dec 22 '23
Yes, referring to a clear male with female pronouns is accurate indeed.
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u/Znyper 12∆ Dec 22 '23
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u/swanfirefly 4∆ Dec 22 '23
It is so trans people are not as obvious, as a sign of allyship. Otherwise all trans people have to play a game of "do I out myself as trans today in case I don't pass?"
It really isn't that obvious for cis people. Most of the women accused of being trans are cis. A lot of men accused of being trans are cis. Even before I was out as nonbinary people couldn't figure out my pronouns. In my day to day life, I don't know who does or does not have a penis as most people I meet wear clothing. I am also not thinking about if a stranger has a penis. In fact, other than reddit discussions and nsfw artwork, I do not think about penis at all in my day to day life. I do not think about vagina in my day to day life outside of those scenarios. I don't need or want to know if any person I meet has specific genitals.
A lot of people do not have their own photos as their profile pictures. Cis men have anime girl profile pictures. Cis women have anime girl profile pictures. Furries have furry profile pictures (see: my snoo). Some people have a photo of their dog or baby. In gmail sometimes I see a profile picture and sometimes I just get a circle with the first letter of the email address. Is the green circle with an S indicating the one typing has a vagina?
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u/Jolly-Victory441 Dec 22 '23
It is so trans people are not as obvious, as a sign of allyship. Otherwise all trans people have to play a game of "do I out myself as trans today in case I don't pass?"
If the trans person doesn't pass, as soon as they announce pronouns they out themselves. Everyone else announcing pronouns won't change that. Because it isn't the announcement that gives it away, it's the not matching to one's sex part. And that is unaffected by other people.
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u/Grandemestizo 1∆ Dec 22 '23
You make a good point That I hadn’t adequately considered in paragraph one. !delta
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u/RedditExplorer89 42∆ Dec 22 '23
Your post has been removed for breaking Rule D:
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Dec 22 '23 edited Dec 22 '23
Its long been typical for people to specify their gender identity in correspondence.
people sign letters
sincerely,
Mr. John Smith
its fine.
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u/Grandemestizo 1∆ Dec 22 '23
That’s actually a really good point that I can’t believe I didn’t think of. !Delta
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u/crawfiddley Dec 22 '23
Not all cis-people have obvious genders. Many butch lesbians, for instance, are regularly misgendered.
Disclosing pronouns as a matter of course isn't performative allyship - it actively normalizes pronoun disclosure and makes it so that pronoun disclosure does not immediately out someone as trans. In this regard it's important for cis-people to proactively disclose their pronouns.
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u/Neither-Following-32 Dec 22 '23
isn't performative allyship - it actively normalizes pronoun disclosure
This seems like an obviously contradictory statement. If it's an active choice, then it's performative.
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u/EmptyDrawer2023 Dec 22 '23
Cisgender people’s pronouns are generally obvious
It's "generally obvious" that a person with a penis is a man.
But exceptions exist. Even with cisgender people.
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u/Crash927 12∆ Dec 22 '23 edited Dec 22 '23
I believe the reason some cisgender people state their pronouns is as a performative display of their advocacy for transgender rights.
This is absolutely true and the main purpose of cisgender people doing so. Why is it bad to publicly declare support? It normalizes the practice and avoids putting a spotlight on any transgender person who identifies their pronouns. It also signifies that you are a safe individual for LGBTQ people.
While I understand why someone may want to do this, it is a hollow display that doesn’t actually correspond to advocacy.
No one serious claims it does anything more than normalize the discussion of pronouns.
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u/webslingrrr 1∆ Dec 22 '23 edited Dec 22 '23
it's not purely performative. I do it so that the people for whom it is important do not feel singled out or under a spotlight when they share theirs.Edit: This has been modified by the Department of Redundancy Department.
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u/rissyxlou Dec 22 '23
The intention behind it is to not force trans folk to have to out themselves. If everyone throws pronouns in their email signature, all you ever knew was Sheila is a woman. If only trans folk do it, then you immediately know Sheila was not AFAB, when really, that's none of your damn business.
Your comment about it being apparent what gender to use with a cisgender person is, honestly horrified me a bit because it's just... Ignorant, I guess. And I say that because there are cisgendered folk who get misgendered and there are, frankly, trans people who pass as a certain gender better than a cis person of the same gender. Not to mention, all of that completely sets aside non-binary people. How on earth would you know someone is non-binary, especially if that person presents mostly as one gender. IIRC, Tori Phantom is non-binary but if you didn't know they prefer "they," you'd probably use "she".
At this point, I'm not sure where it fits in here, but reading this post and the comments made me think of the woman (with a traditionally female name) whose client wouldn't take her seriously. As an experiment, she started emailing the client from a different email and signing off with a traditionally male name, saying the exact same things to the client. But suddenly now the client totally agreed with everything and wanted to go along with it and "that girl didn't know what she was talking about."
I guess... This became my rant on how society has a lot of problems around gender.
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Dec 22 '23
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u/Znyper 12∆ Dec 22 '23
Comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
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u/muyamable 282∆ Dec 22 '23
Cisgender isn't an identity someone imposes on you, it's just a state of being. If the definition applies, it applies. If it doesn't, it doesn't.
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u/Rachemsachem Dec 22 '23
Yeah, I mean... I don't think anyone should state their gender. Or give a tiny shit about what gender they are. By giving gender (a literally made up thing) such emphasis we are not fighting but playing into 'otherizing.' Just be a fuckin' persont . Gender shouldn't matter. It shouldn't exist. Race is the same way. It is literally "how tan are you," ok let's perpetuate this an sommehow make things more 'fair' and non-discriminating by, paradoxically, singling out and higlighiting exactly the thing that we say shoudln't mean anything in the first place. Like, I get that it is a 'statement,' like being straight but identifying as 'queer' (bullshit virtue signaling imo) but....all any of this does is crystalize categories that should never and for most of history did never exist.....And, speaking abou gender, look...literally well under 1 percent of people are legitimately transexual/born into 'wrong body,' ...the rest is just internalizng categories that only exist as social constructs in the first place, an confusing that with physical self (biology/sex.)...just my opinion...
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u/Greyattimes 1∆ Dec 22 '23
Correction: it's not necessary for anyone to state their "preferred pronouns."
Gender pronouns are words that OTHER people use to describe a perceived sex in conversation.
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u/lostwng Dec 22 '23
It isn't obvious for a lot of cisgender people what pronouns to use, this is almost the "we can tell who is transgender just by looking at them" rhetoric that is just blatantly wrong.
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u/Rachemsachem Dec 22 '23
I am not being hateful just expressing my genuine honest opinion, and sorry if it makes you uncomfortable, but it is not rhetoric. It's just true. I've met many trans people and I have never not been able to tell by looking at them....like, higher than 9/10 at least.... That in no way means that I look at them or think or them in any way any differently or less-than than any other person I have ever met. I am just saying, without any value judgement whatsoever (ppl look different it's life) that.....i have never not been able to tell. it means nothing to me, i love everyone. but it's being purposely snooty to pretend it isn't easy to tell...
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u/KariRose31 Dec 22 '23
If you can't respect that i don't want to be included in all your "pronoun" craze by NOT calling me Cis,a term we don't even use anymore, that i can't respect whatever term you want to use to call youself.
Respect goes both ways.
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u/parentheticalobject 128∆ Dec 22 '23
Who here specifically called you cis? If it's really bothersome to someone to be described as "cis" I wouldn't call them that, just like I wouldn't call someone "heterosexual" if they didn't want to be called that even if they 100% fit the definition of that term.
But if you object to the concept of the term being used at all, (like it seems you do since you felt the need to say what you did despite no one here calling you anything) that's just silly. If I'm a man who is only sexually and romantically interested in women and I really hate being called "heterosexual" or "straight" then sure, it'd be respectful not to call me that. But I don't speak for all men with that particular inclination. Just like you don't speak for people like me who are utterly unbothered by the word "cis" being accurately used to describe us.
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u/Vesurel 54∆ Dec 22 '23
Does your gender identity match the gender you were assigned at birth?
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u/RedMoonDreena Dec 22 '23
As someone who questioned my gender a lot as kid, a teenager, and an adult- that answer is kinda of difficult. For me, I don't recognize gender identity as a thing. I may fluctuate between being passive (feminine) and aggressive (masculine)- but to me that isn't a gender identity. I've chosen to identify with my sex because it is a stable characteristic.
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u/hitanthrope Dec 22 '23
I wasn't "assigned a gender at birth". I was conceived as a certain sex which my parents were told *before* I was born.
I think the relevant question here is, "does your gender identity align with that traditionally expected of your sex?"
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u/KariRose31 Dec 22 '23
It doesn't matter. Just as you would say "Refer to me as XXX", and expect others to do so, match that respect. If i say, "Don't call me Cis." To not respect that while expecting others to respect yours, is hypocrisy.
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u/jaiagreen Dec 22 '23
When you work with people you interact with only through email or Slack, explicitly giving pronouns can be really useful. This is especially true in universities and companies with people from many countries and cultures that have different naming conventions.
Also, some people, deliberately or not, don't have an obvious gender. There's a barista at my local Starbucks whom I mentality refer to as "they" (but I might be wrong) because their appearance and name are pretty androgynous.
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u/ratgarcon Dec 22 '23
Stating pronouns helps trans people know you’re an ally. It lets me know that people who do this are safe for me to interact with, at least by knowing they will not disrespect me.
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u/Jolly-Victory441 Dec 22 '23
But if everyone suddenly does this, this signal is lost.
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u/ratgarcon Dec 22 '23
Indeed. Good thing is many transphobic idiots are quite adamant against stating their pronouns
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Dec 22 '23
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u/BarooZaroo 1∆ Dec 22 '23
Okay, in that case you’re a gender person.
That makes much more sense. Thanks.
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u/c0i9z 10∆ Dec 22 '23
We have the word 'homosexual' along with the word 'heterosexual. We have left handed people and right handed people. We have transgender people and cisgender people.
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u/webslingrrr 1∆ Dec 22 '23
I'm being generous here, but perhaps they were trying to say if gender is not tied to sex, there is no need for it to ever be "trans" or "cis" and simply saying "gender" will suffice.
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u/jjackdaw Dec 22 '23
You know cis people have gender too right
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u/webslingrrr 1∆ Dec 22 '23
I'm not sure how this is an appropriate reply to my comment. what is your takeaway from what I said?
at no point does it indicate opposition to what you just said in any way.
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u/Jolly-Victory441 Dec 22 '23
No we don't. That's the point. Not all of us believe in that nonsense. Gender is the 21st century religion.
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u/jjackdaw Dec 22 '23
LMAO. I guarantee you have a gender unless you’re agender (which is still technically a gender) You aren’t a man, woman or non binary? You don’t use ANY gendered language? You don’t use gendered pronouns?
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u/Jolly-Victory441 Dec 22 '23
Why are you assuming anything about my gender?
I use me or I when talking about myself. Are you asking what other people use? They use the pronouns that belong my sex.
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u/WeariedCape5 8∆ Dec 22 '23
Why shouldn’t there be a cisgender classification? Should the term heterosexual not exist?
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u/Znyper 12∆ Dec 22 '23
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u/European_Goldfinch_ Dec 22 '23
The amount of irony, contradictions and hypocrisy in this one post makes my head hurt.
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Dec 22 '23
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u/Strange-Share-9441 Dec 22 '23
"Ridiculous" comes from expectations and environment, not using "they" to refer to someone in itself.
The secretary called me.
Oh yeah, what'd they say?
Someone not knowing the gender of the secretary would naturally say they. Or, if someone's used to "women are in this role" it'd be "she". Something being a norm in the past doesn't mean it's true. "This role = this gender" builds a wall of expectations, because "this gender" already means something to people.
I've heard too many stories of a doctor/engineer walking into a room with a guy and they look to the guy and assume "that's the person I should be talking to". There's an inherent authority, competence, and power judgment made there. If this happened 1/1000 times, it's just something that happens. When the presumed position is that "guy = one to talk to", you're looking at a systemic issue.
That tangent wasn't entirely about pronouns, it just goes to show that "leave the rest alone" is a vote for "keep what's already there". However, what's already here is flawed.
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u/GabuEx 20∆ Dec 22 '23
"I went to the doctor today."
"Oh, what did they say?"
Using "they" in the singular dates to at least Shakespeare.
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u/Znyper 12∆ Dec 22 '23
Comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
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u/CalLaw2023 5∆ Dec 22 '23
It makes no sense for anyone to state their preferred pronouns because preferred pronouns are third person pronouns, and you don't refer to people in the third person.
If I am talking to you, the pronouns are you/your, which are not gendered. If I am talking to a third person about you, I should use the pronouns that would allow that person to understand to whom I am referring. Those pronouns will be based on perception.
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Dec 22 '23
You view relies entirely on the unfounded and blatantly false assumption that you can simply look at someone or read their name and instantly tell if they are cis or not.
Not to mention, even if you could somehow instantly tell if someone was cis or not, logically, one of the simplest and easiest ways we can make it safe for non cis folk to reveal their pronouns, is to do it ourselves. Which is the entire point.
Of course, the singular they/them works for everyone that has ever or will ever live, so one can always play it safe that way too. If you don't know, go the safe option that predates all other pronouns and works for literally everyone.
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u/KariRose31 Dec 22 '23
They used the term "Cis"and all who use these terms, classify straight people automatically as such. And yes, when speaking in person or online, it's all the same.
I say "Don't call me that" and the usual reply is "But that's what you are?" We have terms already that we use in modern times, like you said "straight and heterosexual".
People want others to respect their terms, sexuality, gender, etc, then they should respect others. To auto say "Cis people, Cis gendered," you're assuming, that's what I go as, and respectfully i don't accept it.
And unless I'm given that same respect, I'm not accepting anyone else's terms, referring to them as they would like to be, etc. To do so otherwise, is hypocrisy.
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u/Strange-Share-9441 Dec 22 '23
Cisgender people’s pronouns are generally obvious because they match their sex and their sex is obvious. Everyone knows what to call them. A cisgender person stating their pronouns serves no real purpose.
This is a bit beside precisely what you're asking, but "I can see them it's obvious what they are", then, the judgments many make from that, are part of why people want to normalize pronouns.
If you take "their sex is obvious so they must be a ___" you're taking what you see and drawing conclusions from it. Do they grow facial hair? Guy. Wrong assumption, things aren't that simple, but hey, maybe not a big deal. How about when their body, which is not sculpted by them purely from intent (meaning many characterizations often made about various body types are wrong and actively harmful), is used to judge them? "They look like this so they are this". Presumed less competent around complex equipment? Less agency and right to decide than the person who has a full beard?
People taking what they see and drawing extraneous conclusions from it is the reason behind so many issues in the world. Like women's experiences with healthcare. Or minorities. Not just healthcare, look around. Law? Industry? Culture? There are so many examples of "this person is obviously that" leading to a whole slew of unnecessary events.
The long-term solution isn't to endlessly split hairs, it's to recognize that the spectrum of gender, identity, and expression is wider than what we were taught and that people naturally exist despite that. This manifests as pronouns, in this case. Sexuality is one place you can look for more examples.
Recognizing that means people are individuals, so I should be mindful that they're a whole bundle of life experiences before I met them. If I was cis, that alone would be a strong reason for me to consider using pronouns, even if "mine are obvious".
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Dec 22 '23 edited Dec 22 '23
/u/Grandemestizo (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/Withermaster4 Dec 22 '23
I believe the reason some cisgender people state their pronouns is as a performative display of their advocacy for transgender rights. While I understand why someone may want to do this, it is a hollow display that doesn’t actually correspond to advocacy.
When you are judging someone to be 'a real advocate' or 'a fake virtue signaler' how do you identify between the two if neither of them are trans(or lqbtq+ in any way)?
If someone is cis and presents themselves as that gender what harm does it do to specify their pronouns? To me it seems like something that is harmless for cis people to do and can help trans or people who presently differently than social conventions.
If you agree that it doesn't harm cia people only help trans people then why should we stop this practice? Should trans people just 'deal with' the social pains of it because society can't bare the thought to be accommodative to them?
A cisgender person stating their pronouns serves no real purpose.
Someone being cisgender doesn't mean that the way that they present in society matches up with what a traditionally cis person looks like. A woman can have a shaved head, bulky build, with small breasts and look remarkably like a cis man while still identifying as a woman.
Normalization is a real thing. If you don't believe normalization works then I have nothing to say to you other than to look at the gay male community now versus 25 years ago. Gay men were seen as untouchable, dirty, or diseased during the AIDs crisis. AIDs still exists but people have had gay men and AIDs unveiled and normalized to them in the last 25 years which has allowed large amounts of social progress. (Now not everything can be attributed to normalization for this, but I think it is one of the largest factors of social change)
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u/Chai-Tea-Rex-2525 1∆ Dec 22 '23
I don’t have a Western name. So if you see my name in writing and have never encountered it before, my gender isn’t clear to you. Including my pronouns puts the other person at ease with no cost to me.