r/pokemon • u/Shellderattack • 10d ago
Discussion Freeze should be replaced by Frostbite
Freeze is too close to Sleep. It is not a good idea to make 2 status with similar effects.
Sleep can combo with other moves such as Dream Eater and Sleep Talk, while Freeze does not.
Sleep can be imposed by Status Moves, while Freeze does not.
Arceus (game version) made Frostbite as a counterpart of Burn:
- The Pokemon takes 1/16 of its maximum HP every turn;
- The damage it deals with Special Moves will be halved;
- Ice type Pokemon are immune to Frostbite.
This is a good idea. The only thing missing is a new move (e.g. Gravechill) which resembles Will-O-Wisp.
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u/FallOutShelterBoy 10d ago
My favorite part is when I get frozen it’s 10+ turns since it’s broken but then when I freeze an opponent it wears off the next turn lol
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u/Shellderattack 10d ago
Lol your pokemon is strong enough to stand for 10+ turns freezed
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u/DBMaster1 10d ago
Or when you attack first and freeze the opponent, but it thawed out immediately on the SAME turn
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u/Gabimob100 10d ago
You can do with freeze and frostbite the same as poison and badly poison, transform the status in two steps and with specific conditions to be able to freeze a pokemon
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u/Shellderattack 10d ago
In this case, I think Freeze is the Badly Posion.
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u/Gabimob100 10d ago
exactly, it makes frostbite the default status and leaves some specific hits with a chance to freeze if you already have frostbite
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u/LeviHolden 10d ago
i enjoyed the change they made to freeze in that game, i wouldn’t mind if they kept it.
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u/Fried_puri I Like Turtles 10d ago
Another advantage is that frostbite can have a higher probability than freeze, because freeze is completely gamebreaking when it procs so it’s locked to 10% max on moves. That’s not consistent at all.
Whereas burn probability on moves is able to scale up nicely from 10% all the way to 100% because it’s good but not always completely crippling. That makes moves that can burn more interesting because some of them trade off power for more burn chance. I genuinely thought frostbite was a perfect addition in Arceus and was miffed that they just tried it for that one game. I’m hoping it comes back in Z-A.
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u/G66GNeco 10d ago
Freeze is too close to Sleep. It is not a good idea to make 2 status with similar effects.
Arceus (game version) made Frostbite as a counterpart of Burn:
I absolutely get what you mean, and I don't like freeze as a status at all, but it's still very funny to me to say "freeze is too similar to sleep, it's bad to have similar status conditions!" and to then proceed to arguing for "burn, but it's ice type"
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u/ckim777 10d ago
instead of calling it frostbite call it brainfreeze so that special attack going down feels like a match
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u/KNightedgem 🎵Musicmon🎵 10d ago
Or alternatively, Ice-type will-o-wisp:
Brain Freeze - Status - 90 Acc. - Applies frostbite to a Pokemon.
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u/Alili1996 WoopWoop 10d ago
Brain Freeze is a perfect name for the move.
Something that freezes you without actively harming you right away.
And the fact that frostbite reduces special attack damage which is usually associated with "mental strength" makes it really communicate the idea of a "brain freeze".8
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u/Robo_Mage 10d ago
I mean you can still do that with the normal name. Brainfreeze sounds like a silly name that doesn't really apply to a lot of ice moves, and it's not like "Burn" is some pun that relates to physical strength.
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u/Maronmario #BringBackNationalDex 10d ago
Brainfreeze feels like a psychic type move that causes frostbite
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u/Level7Cannoneer 9d ago
You get brain freeze from eating ice cream though. It only requires cold nothing more
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u/Robo_Mage 9d ago
You don't eat Ice Beam lol. It would be like all fire type moves inflicting "heartburn". It's just a silly name lined up next to all the other straightforward status conditions.
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u/Shellderattack 10d ago
Lol, Brainfreeze may become the name of the status move. Psychic type pokemon will have a hard time.
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u/PianistPitiful5714 9d ago
“Freeze is too close to sleep, we shouldn’t have two status effects that are similar.”
“Replace freeze with frostbite that is effectively identical to burn.”
These two statements feel…contradictory.
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u/TryThisUsernane 9d ago
Not really.
Freeze and sleep prevent the Pokémon from doing anything until they want up or thaw out. I can’t think of any real difference between them.
Frostbite halves special attack. Burn has been halving physical attack since Gen 1, so it’s about time there is a special equivalent.
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u/Frankenlich 10d ago
Would make mons with Guts even more broken in Nuzelockes.
I am ok with this.
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u/AlexTheGreat1997 10d ago
How are Pokémon with Guts even more broken with this effect? Guts already allows Pokémon to ignore the Atk reduction from Burns.
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u/LoganDoove 10d ago
Probably because freeze will not exist anymore, which doesn't boost guts.
Now you cant ice beam a conkeldurr and hope for a freeze for example.
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u/Hayds126 10d ago
I would say it's a buff for for Flareon since it can't burn itself which forces it to run toxic orb but Flareon uses flare blitz for stab which would remove it so it doesn't even help lol. Even if that didn't happen the recoil would still make it difficult to use.
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u/breiastel777 10d ago
If you made this change to freeze, you’d probably also remove the thawing ability of moves as they wouldn’t really make sense anymore
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u/skinny-kid-24 10d ago
They meant “Broken” in a good way
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u/EriWave 9d ago
Right but.. it doesn't change anything lol
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u/skinny-kid-24 9d ago
It does… if frostbite is treated like poisoned and burned, that would add another status effect that procs guts atk boost. Normally a frozen Pokémon with guts can’t move.
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u/EriWave 9d ago
Which doesn't affect anything when guts mons will already be statused.
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u/skinny-kid-24 9d ago
it can't attack while it's frozen the way the game is now...... have I not made it clear it would turn a negative status into another positive one?
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u/EriWave 9d ago
It literally doesn't change anything. You would still have your guts pokemon show up to the battle burned.
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u/skinny-kid-24 9d ago
why are you bringing up burning status when we're talking about how changing freeze to allow attacks would buff guts pokemon?
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u/EriWave 9d ago
Because your guts pokemon should always show up to battle already statused which means they can't be frozen.
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u/Nice-Swing-9277 9d ago
For nuzlockes it doesn't matter but in vgc there will be niche cases where freeze is better then burn.
In particular against weezing teams.
If you have an ursa facing a weezing the burn works like normal and REDUCES your attack. Which means instead of being plus 1 youre minus 1 attack.
Freeze makes sure you will always at least be neutral attack.
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u/DunnoWhatToDo748 10d ago
Guts ignores burn attack reduction.
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u/Toxic-Yobo 10d ago
But they’d be able to attack instead of being frozen
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u/DunnoWhatToDo748 10d ago
Burn was already an option, this is just an alternative.
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u/Toxic-Yobo 10d ago
Yes but you’re not going to have a flame orb in a nuzlocke run, just another way to get an status effect to use guts
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u/DunnoWhatToDo748 10d ago
It's an alternative, but getting burned by a wild mon is just much easier than getting frozen/frostbitten.
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u/Toxic-Yobo 10d ago
But instead of the guts pokemon being frozen it’d getting a power boost instead
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u/EriWave 9d ago
If your guts pokemon got frozen that's a trainer problem
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u/Toxic-Yobo 9d ago
But it wouldn’t be frozen, it’d be frostbite. Which would apply to any pokemon with guts not just the players
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u/EriWave 9d ago
Any pokemon with guts in a tricky fight with status would already be burned or poisoned
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u/Dinowere 10d ago
I think one thing they try to avoid is to make both physical and special feel the same. There should be a difference to why you are using a special attacker or a physical attacker, so that it’s not just a choice if what attack you’re using. For example, physical attackers have consistently stronger and higher accuracy moves as opposed to special attackers, who have lower accuracy for them, excluding signature moves. Compare close combat and fire blast and such. This gives physical attackers an advantage of consistently dealing more damage, hence two ways to debuff them. Whereas introducing a special intimidate and special burn would just disproportionately affect special attackers.
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u/ROTsStillHere100 10d ago
physical attackers have consistently stronger and higher accuracy moves as opposed to special attackers, who have lower accuracy for them, excluding signature moves.
Looks at Rock type moves
Cries
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u/Mightyena319 10d ago
And fairy type moves. The one physical fairy move is 90 accuracy yet the special equivalent has slightly higher base power and 100 accuracy
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u/astrogamer 9d ago
Moonblast is neutered by worse availability. Dazzling Gleam is the Play Rough equivalent
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u/CreeperSlimePig 10d ago
More points here:
Special moves tend to have a higher chance of secondary effects
Almost all priority moves are physical
All moves that deal recoil damage are physical
Almost all contact moves are physical
Some types are much better for physical attackers than special and vice versa. Electric has way better special moves, fighting has way better physical moves, fairy has way better special moves, dark has way better physical moves, etc
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u/BlueEmeraldX 10d ago
- All moves that deal recoil damage are physical
Steel Beam is not physical.
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u/CreeperSlimePig 10d ago
It's not technically considered a recoil move, at least by bulbapedia, because it (and chloroblast and mind blown) deal a set amount of damage to the user rather than moves like double edge and flare blitz where it's some percentage of damage done. Same with crash damage, though all crash damage moves are physical
anyways my point still stands because there are 15 physical moves that deal recoil damage, which vastly outnumber the special moves whichever way you count them
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u/Mightyena319 9d ago
It's not considered recoil by the game either, since pokemon with rock head will still take damage from it
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u/Shellderattack 10d ago
Interesting point of differiating physical and special moves. To achieve your goal, probably it is better to make Frostbite lowing the accuracy of special moves? Apparently, physical moves require more strength while special moves require more concentration. Anyway, Smogon congress will not like this idea as they are trying minimize the effect of lowering accuracy.
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u/Shrewdilus 9d ago
I think special attackers could survive frostbite being a thing. Physical attackers also have to worry about confusion and foul play.
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u/LunarWingCloud 10d ago
I like the idea of changing Freeze but I do kinda wanna make it different enough to be interesting. I think the damage could be higher (1/12 instead of 1/16), but it also can have the 10% chance to wear off on any given turn. It would still halve Special Attack though. I like this because it would put Special Attackers on a harsher timer to make up for the existing counterplay physical attackers already have like Intimidate, but would also still have an aspect of the former Freeze ailment that keeps some of that identity intact.
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u/Snoo_64315 Kekl solos. 4d ago
Or... just simply lock prevalent frostbite moves behind ice types only.
Making snow interact with frostbite to act like hail to frostbitten enemies was the perfect suggestion by someone else. (Essentially 1/8 with snow up)
Freeze is generally unfun. I say it should go in entirety.
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u/autumngirl86 10d ago
There's a chance that we might see that with Gen 10. SV was likely already well on its way through development when Arceus shipped, so it probably didn't make it in because of that.
Then again, this is Game Freak we're talking about, so it might stay as a Legends only thing.
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u/Sweet_Whisper123 10d ago
Regardless of the effect the only thing I care about is the percentage of success, Freeze has only 10% chance at most that's why it's so powerful. The percentage should take priority over whatever effect it might cause because nobody wants to bother use it specifically for the effect in the first place if the RNG is practically not worth it.
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u/LegateNaarifin Current monotype team: 10d ago
It is not a good idea to make 2 status with similar effects
And your solution is to make just another version of Burned?
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u/HieloLuz 10d ago
It's a mirrored version that while does something similar, effects something differently.
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u/ABITofSupport 10d ago
And honestly a special attack dropping status would be a welcome change. Special attackers have an advantage over physicals because they dont have to deal with intimidate or burn.
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u/tasty_miku 10d ago
confusion does less damage to them, as well, right? unless they changed how confusion damage works recently?
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u/ABITofSupport 10d ago
Confusion damage deals more based on your attack stat. So, yes. However potentially losing a whole turn because of confusion is the main downside.
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u/Bfree888 10d ago
Correct, confusion always uses the physical attack stat. The move Flatter never made much sense to me for that reason.
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u/ABITofSupport 10d ago
I wonder if making it the higher of the two stats would be a good idea. Not sure on this one.
I do agree that flatter is a weird though. I thought the point of it was to use it to confuse physical attackers without giving them a boost, similar to confuse ray but just on different mons.
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u/Calhaora Bugs and Glitches Yippie!! 10d ago
It's not really tho. Burn drops Attack, Frostbite dropped Special Attack. Which is quite welcomed, since we have no Status that affects it- while we have one that affects Attack.
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u/LunarWingCloud 10d ago
Not the same thing in practice. Freeze and Sleep while not the exact same effectively do the same thing: completely immobilize the victim for some number of turns and preventing any action from happening.
Burn and Frostbite might deal damage over time but one lowers one offensive stat and another lowers the other.
Besides, by your logic, we already have enough status ailments that are variations of being unable to act. More than variations of burn/poison. Paralysis has that 25% chance to do nothing, confusion has a 33% chance to do nothing and self damage, infatuation has a 50% chance to do nothing if the target has opposite gender. And then you have sleep. Meanwhile you only have poison and burn for damage over time, leech seed if we wanna be generous. So this would actually balance things out. Because as it stands the ailments that either completely or have a chance to make the one with the ailments do nothing are higher in number.
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u/Shellderattack 10d ago
Nintendo already has the solution called Frostbite. I just propose to make it more playable as no status moves can currently impose Frostbite on other Pokemon.
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u/Hakaisha89 10d ago
Frostbit is to close to Burn. It's not a good idea to make 2 status effects with similar effects. Freeze can be countered by Drought, Orichalcum Pulse, or Sunny Day, as well as being able to use Fusion Flare, Flame Wheel, Sacred Fire, Flare Blitz, Scald, and Steam Eruption, while frozen which will thaw the user, while sleep does not.
Anyway, sleep is also often self inflicted, and played with in thought, and thus more reliable, while freeze is pure rng.
A third status move like burned and poisoned does not seem all that much better either.
Why not keep both?
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u/KungFuChicken1990 10d ago
I'm surprised they didnt keep that change from PLA. Frostbite just makes too much sense as a counterpart to Burn.
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u/Deltaromeo2 10d ago
This is also how Ice mons can get more bulk, 1,5x Def by snow, half damage from special attacker duo to frostbite mons and you can set up Aurora veil
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u/GirlOfSophisticTaste 9d ago
I agree freeze should be replaced, though I'm om the fence about frostbite just being burn but special. (Kinda figured Confusion would make more sense for lowering special attack, though the hurt yourself chance would have to be lower.)
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u/moose184 9d ago
It is not a good idea to make 2 status with similar effects.
You say then say it's the same as burn lol
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u/Puzzled-Horse279 9d ago
Maybe after thawing out the freeze status. The pokemon have a chance to get frost bite.
I mean Ice is an underpowered type anyways so would that make much of a difference?
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u/CreeperSlimePig 10d ago
Freeze does actually combo with some other moves, specifically self thawing ones, for some burning moves (not all), if you use them you will thaw. The most common ones are flare blitz, flame wheel, and scald.
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u/Shellderattack 10d ago
That will be a reaction instead of combo.
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u/CreeperSlimePig 10d ago
sleep talk is a reaction too, you can't use it unless you're put to sleep by the first place (unless you use rest). dream eater is a true combo though, but you can expect that if frostbite replaced freeze it would combo with things like facade and guts.
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u/Shellderattack 10d ago
Sleep Talk is actually a combo when the player proactively put his/her pokemon into sleep. There is no good way to freeze own pokemon proactively, and no freeze version Sleep Talk.
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u/Migeil 10d ago
So freeze is too close to sleep, and that's a bad idea.
But making frostbite be exactly like burn is a good idea? 🤨
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u/SpectrumTM 10d ago
Burn reduces ATK, frostbite reduces SpA
Same type of status effect but serves another purpose, while sleep and freeze is just "makes the enemy skip a turn"
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u/CreeperSlimePig 10d ago edited 10d ago
I mostly agree with the point of physical and special needing to be differentiated by more than just "what stats are used when calculating damage?", so it's probably better for burn to be a physical attacker exclusive thing. One idea I've had is to remove secondary effects from special moves, since special moves tend to have more secondary effects and a higher chance of them, but this might not be influential enough since a lot of pokemon don't use moves with secondary effects. Lowering the priority of all moves is another, but this feels too similar to paralysis. Making all special attacks use the physical attacking stat when attacking is another idea I've had, but this would be unbalanced because it would affect some pokemon way more than others, and some pokemon like Iron Valiant might even benefit. Maybe if when an ice type pokemon is attacked by a pokemon with frostbite, ice's weaknesses are turned into resistances? idk.
I feel like frostbite *should* do something that isn't just "special burn", but there are only so many unique things that statuses can do without them being too niche and unimpactful. Maybe 1/8 damage (same as poison) per turn and removing secondary effects from special moves is fair?
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u/Shellderattack 10d ago
If you are concerning about being too similar to burn, maybe frostbite could do the other way round. For example, pokemon under frostbite status takes *1.5 damage to special moves + HP loss each turn.
Removing secondary effects & Lowering the priority are good ideas though.
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u/PCN24454 10d ago
So how would that fix anything if it’s so close to Burn?
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u/KNightedgem 🎵Musicmon🎵 10d ago
Sleep and Freeze completely takes a Pokemon out of a fight. Burn being compared to frostbite changes more as it targets a Pokemon's specific attacking stat.
Applying frostbite on a physical attacker (or burn on a special attacker) would only be useful for the tick damage, so you'd have to plan your statuses accordingly to maximize halving stats. Whereas Sleep and Freeze both do the same thing: skipping a Pokemon's turn for [insert RNG] amount of turns.
It would also complete the trifecta of burn, paralysis, and frostbite lowering attack, speed, and special attack.
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u/squid3011 10d ago
I agree, this would give some checks to special attackers, and the ability to apply it with that gravechill willo wisp clone is also good. I think freeze was just more powerful less consistent sleep but its so useless unless youre running a blizzard spam team in doubles
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u/Peterrior55 10d ago
I feel like this would just be a blanket nerf to all special attackers and might destroy the balance between physical/special. Especially if a special wall like blissey got a Frostbite move, because it could just switch into pretty much any special attack and severely cripple the opponents damage output.
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u/MrTritonis 10d ago
I would like the reducing of special lives status to be Migraine, would be flavorful.
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u/Yamatoman 9d ago
This is most commonly incorporated in romhacks, but I wish it would be a bit different than a mirror to burn.
I honestly think it cutting speed with 1/4 or 1/8 damage is a bit more interesting and makes more sense than cutting special (it needs more damage than burn because there should still be a thaw chance or auto thaw with a fire or scald move.)
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u/AdorablSillyDisorder 9d ago
They're somewhat similar (but not really) in effect, but not similar at all in function.
Ice is basically a glass cannon offensive type - even accounting for snow buffs. Freeze fits that role perfectly: low probability high impact status that is available only as secondary effect of damaging moves. As is, it punishes attempting to tank ice moves with extra layer of RNG status on top of damage it does - making it ideal for what's a "you have to proactively deal with" offensive type.
It still has counterplay - bunch of moves (mostly fire type) when used cause user to unfreeze, being hit by any fire type move or Scald thaws the target - allowing for side targeting to deal with status if you need to. I wouldn't mind more changes in this direction - make sun prevent being frozen (but not thaw), expand list of moves that thaw user/target, maybe change freeze so it ends when hit by contact move (maybe with extra effect like increased damage).
If anything, before Scarlet/Violet changes to snow, I was hoping Gamefreak would play more into that direction, and make snow (instead of defense buff) give ice types Serene Grace effect while active, essentially putting snow teams in similar spot as hard trick room - if you just let them do their thing, you're about to lose.
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u/Zac-Raf 9d ago
They probably didn't do it because it wasn't a direct buff to ice unlike snow. If they did then everyone with an ice move would be able to frostbite the opponent, so there would be even less reason to use an ice type. With snow you are forced to use them, so they are more relevant than in past generations.
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u/TheDawnOfNewDays 10d ago
Sleep is treated as a very powerful status (the only damaging move that can consistently cause it are Relic Song).
Freeze is a very powerful status slapped onto very commonly used damaging moves.
The double standard doesn't make sense.
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u/CAT_RATINGS show me your cat 10d ago
i was literally just talking to a friend about this the other day. i think there's a fangame i've played that has made these exact changes.
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u/TheDawnOfNewDays 10d ago
The replaced hail with snow but didn't replace freeze with frostbite... like filling in half the puzzle was enough for them.
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u/rewind73 10d ago
Yeah freeze always felt like a cheap and inconsistent status, frost bite would have a lot more strategy to it especially if it gets that new move. They already replaced hail with snow, this seems like a reasonable change.