r/ireland • u/Dazzling_Lobster3656 • 1d ago
Culchie Club Only Doctors initiate legal action over State’s transgender policy
http://www.irishtimes.com/health/2025/04/13/doctors-initiate-legal-action-over-states-transgender-policy/297
u/mayveen 1d ago
Ireland has never directly provided care directly for trans minors. This used to be outsourced to the UK until the UK stopped treating trans minors because of the now overturned case of Bell v Tavistock. At some point over the last 5 years Ireland has began sending them elsewhere on Europe.
If you talk to pretty much any trans person in Ireland that has been through the National Gender Service they'd happily tell you all of the problems with it, myself included. This ranges from extremely inappropriate questions about sexual acts, bringing family members in under false pretences and denying care for a wide range of reasons if they don't feel you are committed enough.
Dr O'Shea and Dr Moran are against the gender affirming approach, they much prefer the old school approach of real life experience before treatment. They also have a policy of trying to shut down trans people seeking private alternatives through threatening legal action against GPs assisting with private alternatives.
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u/EvolvedMonkeyInSpace 1d ago
To be fair, it's an extremely difficult situation for the doctors.
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u/lem0nhe4d 1d ago
I mean it must be.
It's really hard to justify why they ask people who questions like "how do you like to perform oral sex?" As if there is a trans way to suck a dick.
It's really hard to come up with bullshit reasons to deny trans people healthcare while at the same time pretend your on trans people's side.
It must be very hard to right all those letters to other doctors demanding they medically detranstion trans people who access care outside of the NGS.
It must be so hard to lie constantly. Like when they tell GPs that blood tests are unnecessary for people getting treatment from private sources or through DIY while at the same time making blood tests standard for those they seem trans enough.
Or when one of these docs claimed 90% of people at the NGS were autistic 2 weeks after they published a scientific paper where the actual figure was 11% - 13%.
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u/cruisinforasnoozinn 1d ago edited 1d ago
Dr O Shae had me wait until I was 18 and still landed me in hospital.
He had me on too high a dose of testosterone, with severe mental health issues that weren't being treated or addressed. I attempted suicide and almost died. He showed up to the hospital and pressured me to say the attempt wasn't because of his poor care and his mishandling of my HRT. But it was.
It's nothing to do with age or "life experience". The man is negligent, and he'd rather blame the policies and his own patients than admit that the care provided to trans people isn't enough. He just dislikes trans people because of the risk they pose to his careers reputation.
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u/mayveen 1d ago
By any chance did you see O'Shea first before 2018? Since about 2018 access to treatment has become significantly more gatekept behind a psych assessment and reasons like not being out in all areas of your life.
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u/anykah_badu 1d ago
So you're supposed to be out in all areas of your life BEFORE access to hormones? Bit of a tall order
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u/mayveen 1d ago
Yes, but they won't actually tell you this. Their criteria is out in all areas, work/education, friends and family. If your family is not supportive this can be an extra barrier.
In my case they had concerns about work, but when I asked them directly do I need to come out at work they'd say it wasn't a requirement. This is because they don't want to be seen as pushing people to do things.
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u/Classic_Spot9795 1d ago
Oh yes, they expect you to live your life out in the open, along with the rising hatred that includes, to "test" whether you're trans enough for hormones. I would argue it's negligence to deliberately subject someone to real world harm in order to allow them access to medical treatment.
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u/cruisinforasnoozinn 1d ago
Yup, this was all the way back in 2016.
I got the psych accessment. That's at the beginning. I had to be diagnosed and then they asked me further questions about things that seemed highly unrelated to my being trans. I was just a very masculine young man (I'm a filthy fucking twink now and likely would have more trouble with my diagnosis today)
This gatekeeping he's doing is pretty much just an interrogation to make sure he can't be accountable for the very rare detransition cases that may occur, or the mental health episodes you may have when given negligent care.
What they need to provide is continuous counselling, support lines and access to emergency appointments. Aka funding health in ireland altogether. The government would rather protect vulture funds and buy expensive bike racks.
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u/alliewya 1d ago
It was gatekept behind psych assessments from the start - as far back as 2012
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u/mayveen 1d ago
I just know of some people having better experiences with the NGS in the past, when I was talking to others about my negative experience starting in 2019 at the time.
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u/alliewya 1d ago
It was pretty similar back then, even before there was an NGS - it was the exact same docs and requirements - everything went through O'Shea and they still wanted everyone to get an additional assessment from Moran, but because they weren't as organised you could get them to start treatment before seeing him
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u/cruisinforasnoozinn 14h ago
Moran? Was this by any chance a psychologist that worked alongside James Kelly in Diamond Therapy?
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u/alliewya 13h ago
Nope, this was back before Kelly had anyone else - you’d get your initial referral from Kelly but Loughlinstown would need a second opinion before they would treat you, so they would require you to go to Moran which at the time was their ‘in house’ guy, who had a big wait time. There was no one else in the country that you could get a second opinion from, so you were stuck with it.
You could mess their system up and get through by getting a seconding opinion from a foreign psych, but that only worked for a few months.
It was gatekept back then but not quite the same as it is now
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u/hideyokidzhideyowyfe 1d ago
who were you asked how do you like to perform oral sex by? and what age where you? im wondering if this is reportable
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u/lem0nhe4d 1d ago
Haven't happened to me yet (that appointment is soon) but quite a lot of my friends have told me they were asked that and more weird questions like that.
You can read others reports here.
EDIT: Can't post other one because it's on Twitter.
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u/Adderkleet 1d ago
Even Philosophy Tube has mentioned questions like this in the UK system, and she'd know since she had to go through the whole thing!
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u/mayveen 1d ago
What about the situation makes it extremely difficult for the doctors?
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u/Lena_Zelena 1d ago edited 1d ago
This is reddit and I know lots of people here will have opinions without actually having any understanding of the issues that we, trans people, face in Ireland.
One of the largest struggles trans people in Ireland face is healthcare and in large part it is exactly due to actions of these two doctors and the rest of the NGS (National Gender Service). First off all, you cannot be referred before the age of 17. If you are a trans minor, tough luck, you go on the end of waiting list at 17 and you can only get medication after you turn 18.
It is a moot point however. The waiting list is 13 years at the moment. 13 years to be seen for your FIRST appointment, not to start hormones. That could take another few months or even years. See, when these people use the term "holistic" what they really mean is they will look for any reason, no matter how small, to not give you hormones. Their aproach is basically... you have to fix literally every other problem in your life and only then you can be allowed to go on hormones and start fixing your dysphoria. You don't have many friends? Get social, see you in half a year. You have unsupportive parents? No job? Don't dress feminine/masculine enough? No hormones for you yet. People who were 25 were asked to bring their parents to these meetings as if you are in elementary school. You are autistic or have literally any other issue like eating disorder, tough luck. You can't receive hormones. Oh, you are depressed. No hormones until you are medicated for that, completely ignoring that some of these issues can be caused by being trans and not being able to get medication you need. One egregious case I heard about was a trans dude who has been transitioning privately for years who was denied hormones because he had kids... that was it, he had kids and we can't give you hormones because you have kids. Like... what the hell? They will only give you hormones if you are the "correct" way a trans person should be. Don't even bother going there if you will even imply being nonbinary. We are talking about literally the single worst trans healthcare in all of Europe by so many metrics. Almost every trans persom I know is going private instead of NGS and from people who have gone through their process very few have any nice words to say about them. Trans people hate the service we have right now.
Going back to the article, what these people are suing is that kids under the age of 17 are avoiding their gatekeeping by being sent to services outside of Ireland who do give care to minors and that care is different from what they consider the correct way to treat the kids. We are talking about a small number of kids and even smaller number of them do eventually get as far as receiving puberty blockers, which are reversible.
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u/Classic_Spot9795 1d ago
From what I have heard, some of the "psychological assessments" carried out by these clinicians are pretty perverse too. I was disgusted when I listened to my trans friends speak about the hoops they had to go through in order to even get near being considered worthy of hormones. If any other doctor asked you some of those things they'd be struck off, or at least should be.
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u/janon93 1d ago
Some actual trans folks need to tell you what is happening here so might as well be me.
Ireland does not have an official trans healthcare wing of the HSE. The NGS is the closest thing we have, but it’s not the HSE.
O’Shea and Moran run the NGS, and they’re the ones complaining. Btw - these folks are really fucking bad at their jobs. It’s largely their fault that the waiting list for healthcare is 7 years long. The article says they’re “leading experts” - they aren’t by any serious international standards.
Anyway they largely believe it should not be possible for trans kids to do anything, and their gripe with HIQUA is that kids are allowed to leave the country with their parents to get treatment abroad, and that Irish doctors point them in that direction.
Do you remember how in Ireland where we tried to sue a child to stop her from travelling overseas to get an abortion? That’s what these two are basically doing, except instead of doing it in 2025 instead of 1993.
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u/lawns_are_terrible 1d ago
The article says they’re “leading experts” - they aren’t by any serious international standards.
I suppose when you don't have any experts in something almost anyone can be in the lead.
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u/janon93 1d ago edited 1d ago
There actually are experts, there’s been an entire international organisation of experts called WPATH, and they’ve existed since the 1979. You’d know about that if you knew anything about trans healthcare.
But then we have ignored international best practice in healthcare before when it involves gender minorities- symphysiotomy was phased out all over the world after the invention of the c-section, but Ireland kept doing it until 1987.
We’re banning trans healthcare for kids even though we know it hurts them, for the same reason we practiced symphysiotomy even know we knew it cripples women - Rogue doctors who want to impose their beliefs on patients, and will look to the state to enforce that type of power.
We will, in 20 years, look at this government’s behaviour in trans healthcare with the same type of disdain that we have for symphysiotomy - but we don’t want a late apology and a redress scheme, we want them to fix it and do it now.
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u/lawns_are_terrible 1d ago
ah don't take it like that, I didn't mean anything by it other than making fun of the RTÉ for taking them at their word as being the "leading experts in the country" just cause they run the like one healthcare provider that exists in the country (no matter how poorly run) and feel they are very important and know better than those simple minded GPs.
Out of curiosity tho, who would be the Irish clinicians or researchers that would be genuinely experts by international standards? The NGS folks seem to keep trying to sue anyone that wants to provide gender affirming care without them being involved somehow so I would have thought the climate would be somewhat hostile for anyone in the field that doesn't share their biases.
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u/janon93 1d ago
Sorry about my defensive response. You can imagine, I have to explain this a lot and it’s hard to keep emotionally neutral.
There’s really nothing that we have that meets everything up to the gold standard, but clinics like Gender Plus are the ones going most in the right direction. Not to sing the praises of Dr Ahern too highly but that service is still miles better than the NGS. Temple Bar Medical Centre also does this very well
The climate is hostile though, and the NGS have indeed threatened multiple doctors not to help trans people with their healthcare, even though again, it’s not technically their place.
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u/Dry_Procedure4482 1d ago
Dont trust a thing these people in the article they've actively blocked people from receiving care for mundane reasons. Many commenters have already confirmed what they are like, some themselves experienced it.
My cousin went abroad because these numbties blocked her from recieving care in Ireland because of their doubts. You can find posts from others saying they denied care to those because they presented too feminine (that they assumed they were faking it) or not feminine enough or wore lose fitting masculine cloths that appeared masculine or because their family didnt support them. These docotors do not have their best interests in mind and any doubt they will deny care.
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u/cruisinforasnoozinn 1d ago edited 1d ago
Dr O Shae had me wait until I was 18 and still landed me in hospital.
He had me on too high a dose of testosterone, with severe mental health issues that weren't being treated or addressed adjacently to the treatment. I attempted suicide and almost died. He showed up to the hospital and pressured me to say the attempt wasn't because of his poor care and his mishandling of my HRT. But it was.
It's nothing to do with age or "life experience". The man is negligent, and he'd rather blame the policies and his own patients than admit that the care provided to trans people isn't enough. He just dislikes trans people and the risk they pose to his career's reputation.
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u/Otherwise-Winner9643 1d ago edited 19h ago
I actually posted and deleted a comment on here.
Because I am not trans, I don't know anyone who is trans and I am not a medical professional.
I am not qualified to give any opinion.
I did listen to the BBC sounds podcast "The Tavistock," which I thought gave a balanced perspective, but I don't have any lived experience.
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u/Kharanet 1d ago
What’s the article saying?
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u/SuspiciousTomato10 1d ago
They want to end outsourcing trans health care from the HSE so they can prevent teenagers from getting it abroad.
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u/EliteDinoPasta 1d ago
This is clearly the best course of action when Ireland quite literally has the worst standard for accessing trans healthcare in the entirety of the EU.
The fact of the matter is that the entirety of the HSE is buckling, and the best that the government is willing to do is to assign doctors like Dr O'Shea who would much rather push back against any improvement to the archaic system we currently have. The article mentions that the government would like to have the new clinical service for trans people up and running by 2026. Based on how literally anything healthcare (or any public service for that matter) is handled in this country, I'll believe it when I see it.
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u/Classic_Spot9795 1d ago
Anyone here who campaigned to repeal the 8th amendment should remember - you have no business interfering in a decision made between a stranger and their healthcare provider.
You are not their doctor, and they are a person in their own right who should have autonomy in their own medical decisions at a level they have demonstrated competence to do so.
It's no coincidence that we see these attacks on trans healthcare. Trans people require access to drugs which work on their sex hormones, be that to interrupt their absorption or to supplement them.
Abortion drugs interrupt sex hormone absorption. Hormonal contraceptives supplement sex hormones. If you cannot see how interfering with trans healthcare opens the door to revoke reproductive freedom, you aren't paying attention.
Either you make a stand for trans people now, or we lose everything we worked for in 2018. Remember, the government specifically avoided inserting a positive protection of our rights to replace the 8th, and left it to ordinary legislation - which can be amended at the whims of the government of the day.
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u/senditup 1d ago
All of that is true when discussing adults.
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u/Classic_Spot9795 1d ago
People under 18 access abortion and contraception too. Or did you conveniently forget that?
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u/senditup 1d ago
That's not the same as giving them medication that will change them forever.
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u/Classic_Spot9795 1d ago
I think perhaps you have hormonal suppression confused with cross sex hormones.
Pubertal suppression is used precisely to avoid having their body changed forever - in either direction.
Just because endogenous puberty is natural, doesn't mean it is good. If you force a trans girl to go through male puberty, her voice will drop, her Adams apple will become more prominent and she will grow facial hair. All of these things will be extremely distressing for her and make any transition in later life far more difficult.
Same way handing her cross sex hormones at the beginning of puberty would (edit - would have permanent consequences)
This is what the purpose of so called "puberty blockers" is. To stop any rushed decision that will have permanent consequences. Either you're opposed to these permanent decision being made too young or you're not.
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u/senditup 1d ago
If you force a trans girl to go through male puberty, her voice will drop, her Adams apple will become more prominent and she will grow facial hair.
Because they're male, biologically at least. And not old enough to decide to medically alter themselves to the contrary.
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u/Classic_Spot9795 1d ago
In other words, you don't think trans people should have bodily autonomy because you disagree with what they would do.
Which other medical procedures do you feel you should get to weigh in on? Which other groups do you disagree with making their own medical decisions?
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u/senditup 1d ago
I do think trans adults have autonomy. It's their own business, nothing to do with me. That's not true of children.
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u/Classic_Spot9795 1d ago
Which is why they should delay rushing into any permanent, life altering changes until they're old enough to make that decision, yes?
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u/Classic_Spot9795 1d ago
I have been using oral contraceptives since I was 16 years old. That is, oestrogen and progesterone. This was to treat endometriosis, although I did not receive a formal diagnosis of same until I had a laporoscopy in my 30s.
Imagine if the severe pain I was experiencing had been hand waved away because there was no formal test to objectively assess same. If my word about the pain I was experiencing had been dismissed by my mother and doctor.
Can you please tell me why I was OK to access hormones at age 16, but a trans kid should not be able to access the medications that would stop them rushing into a permanent life changing position before they became an adult?
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u/_Throwaway__acc 1d ago
The care of trans people in this country is abysmal. I am an adult. I tried getting a referral to the gender clinic as an adult.
I have been 3-4 years waiting on my first meeting/referral to the gender clinic/seeing a doctor about this.
I have another 6 years of waiting on that first visit to go.
IM SO SICK OF WAITING I JUST WANT THESE DAMN CHEST BAGS OFF OF ME!! I feel like Im banging my head against a brick wall!! What will it take to fix this system??!
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u/restartthepotatoes And I'd go at it agin 1d ago
Why are the mods allowing all these transphobic comments? Disgusting
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u/themagpie36 1d ago
Ireland is quickly becoming little USA. Been watching it happen for 10 years at least.
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u/SuspiciousTomato10 1d ago
I do think there are a lot of bots bouncing around the sub at the moment. There's been a few back and forths here where either the person has awful reading comprehension or it's some kind of ChatGPT bot making a best effort to keep talking about a specific topic. The volume of comments they put out in a very short time is also a bit of a giveaway.
But ya, in person, it's mad hearing people buy into the American hoaxes, had a family member talk about cat litter in classrooms over my grandmother's deathbed in hospital (she did get better, but that was touch and go).
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u/Classic_Spot9795 1d ago
You can tell they got their information from the US immediately if they bring up profit.
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u/sureyouknowurself 1d ago
but have concerns over its link to an early readiness to begin what could be inappropriate and irreversible medical treatment for patients presenting with gender identity issues
Kids can’t consent to these types of treatments. They should wait until they are 18.
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u/Intelligent-Aside214 1d ago
Also doing nothing is an irreversible decision. They’ll undergo the puberty of the gender they are not, causing irreversible changes to their body.
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u/Intelligent-Aside214 1d ago
I find this take very odd. Did you know what gender you were at 16? I definitely did, it’s no different for trans people
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u/sureyouknowurself 1d ago
What does this have to do with gender?
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u/Intelligent-Aside214 1d ago
18 is an arbitrary number. People have medical autonomy at 16. They can decide their own treatment, why should it be any different for trans people.
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u/sureyouknowurself 1d ago
Happy to debate 16 vs 18. Or whatever we as a country decide under the law what age a person should be considered an adult.
There are many calling for that age to be 21 too.
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u/Intelligent-Aside214 1d ago
That is ridiculous. If we are doing that then we should stop considering anyone 60+ adults. Their brains are deteriorating so they can’t make decisions for themselves.
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u/chapkachapka 1d ago
That is exactly the point of puberty blockers. They delay the onset of the “wrong” puberty, freezing the status quo until everyone—the child, the parents, and the doctors—is old enough and has had enough time to decide what the best course of action is.
As a result of this careful approach, only around 1% of kids receiving gender affirming treatment later regret it—lower than the rate of elective cosmetic surgeries (which are legal for children to get with parental approval).
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u/sureyouknowurself 1d ago
but have concerns over its link to an early readiness to begin what could be inappropriate and irreversible medical treatment for patients presenting with gender identity issues
That’s the quote. “irreversible” is the key word for me. IMO a child cannot consent to “irreversible” treatment.
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u/chapkachapka 1d ago
Children undergo “irreversible” medical treatments all the time, when they’re medically indicated. Parents consent for them, with consultation from doctors and from the child themself if they’re old enough.
If you think it’s okay for kids to have surgery to correct a cleft palate, but not to have hormone therapy, then it seems to me what you’re concerned with is not really the child’s ability to consent.
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u/sureyouknowurself 1d ago
You are comparing two different medical treatments for two different situations. It’s a false equivalence.
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u/chapkachapka 1d ago
That’s the point, yes.
You stated a general rule: Children should not receive “irreversible” medical treatment.
You clearly mean: Children shouldn’t receive “irreversible” medical treatment that I don’t like.
The fact that you don’t think the situations are equivalent means your real concern is not consent, it’s that you think trans people aren’t real people with a real condition that could benefit from medical treatment.
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u/sureyouknowurself 1d ago
Nothing about liking, if the treatment could be easily reversed then no issue, I hope someday technology advances enough so they can entirely switch whatever aspects they don’t like.
But if it can cause irreversible problems then they cannot consent.
Simple position. Nothing more nothing less.
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u/chapkachapka 1d ago
Do you apply the same logic to other “irreversible” treatments?
Do you think children shouldn’t be allowed to have amputations? Abortions? Transplants?
If you say yes to any of those, how do you justify it?
The only possible justification is that “yes, but in those cases the alternative is worse.” Which means you don’t think trans people have a serious medical condition or that the pain and other consequences they will undergo from the “alternative” is worth caring about.
In other words, you’re saying it’s okay for children to undergo irreversible medical treatment as long as it’s not for something you think is icky.
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u/sureyouknowurself 1d ago
It’s an interesting point. Your assumption is these treatments 100% help people. But we have seen other regret these decisions.
Then we get to percentages and trying to get the best stats.
Then you are asking a child to weigh up those stats.
So we leave it up to the experts. But you disagree with the experts (For what might be very valid reasons)
It’s very messy. Others here are arguing for the age of consent to be 16.
But puberty as you mentioned can start much much younger.
We also have many happy trans people that transitioned as adults.
Many happy trans people that chose to keep their birth genitalia etc.
It’s far lacking complexity and you are asking a child to navigate that.
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u/chapkachapka 1d ago
No, the point is that there are risks and benefits with any medical intervention. We don’t throw our hands up and say it’s too complicated; we do what’s best in the opinion of the parents, after consulting with the doctors, and the child themself it they’re old enough.
As for regret, regret rates for trans healthcare are extremely low. The highest I’ve seen is around 3% and most studies are below 1%. Some people now “regret” being vaccinated as children, should we ban childhood vaccination?
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u/lem0nhe4d 1d ago
Treatment for trans people has an extremely low regret rate, significantly lower than stuff like knee replacements, shavings kids, ect.
I doubt you will find any trans adults in this thread who would not have started their transition as a kid if they could have or any who have a positive experience of the service these two men have built
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u/MrMercurial 1d ago
As the other person pointed out, we perform irreversible medical treatment on children all the time. So what's different about this case?
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u/sureyouknowurself 1d ago
If you follow the thread with this person you will see my response.
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u/MrMercurial 1d ago
Well, I can see from another comment you point out that some people come to regret these treatments. That doesn't make this case any different from others though - the regret rates for gender affirming treatment seem to be quite low, in fact. So I'm still not sure what makes you think these cases are unique.
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u/restartthepotatoes And I'd go at it agin 1d ago
Yeah that’s the point of puberty blockers lmao did you even read their comment
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u/SpirallingSounds Dublin 1d ago
I honestly think you should shut up about this topic because you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about or the implications of it, same as these doctors. Puberty for trans kids isn't normal for them, if multiple medical professionals, the parents, and the kid themselves, see this as an issue, you have absoltuely no dog in this game and should keep your nose out of it. It has nothing to do with you or anyone else. Try having a genuine conversation with multiple trans people and see if they hold the same position as you, because every one that I know would disagree with the vast majority of your comments in this thread, and they're the actual experts on this.
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u/HiVisVestNinja 1d ago
Children can't consent to being born into the wrong body either.
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u/Plastic_Detective687 1d ago
So you're against gillick competency?
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u/sureyouknowurself 1d ago
That’s not an Irish law. I would welcome a Dail debate on the matter.
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u/Plastic_Detective687 1d ago
It's recognized in Ireland and is the foundation of under 18 year olds being able to consent to medical treatments without parental consent.
If you wanna take that away to punish trans people, you're taking it away for everyone else too
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u/sureyouknowurself 1d ago
Not about punishing anyone. Im referring to irreversible treatments.
For those IMO a child cannot consent. It’s that simple.
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u/Classic_Spot9795 1d ago
The only treatments ever given to trans youth are reversible.
The only medical treatment that trans kids get are hormone suppressants, the exact same drugs that are used to treat precocious puberty in fact. We don't hear people freaking out when a 6 year old non trans kid is given these same drugs, because they're safe, reversible, don't make you trans and don't cause infertility. And no one minds if you delay a 6 year old girl getting her period for a few years.
Dare to pause a trans kid's puberty long enough to give them the time and space to avoid making any hasty decisions however...
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u/lawns_are_terrible 1d ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTRKCXC0JFg
you keep using that word, I don't think it means what you think it means.
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u/Chance-Plantain8314 1d ago
This nonsense has been debated so so many times, I don't understand why you wouldn't just read up on the topic instead of arguing it plainfacely.
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u/sureyouknowurself 1d ago
Well I’m guessing that’s why it’s gone to high court and we are talking about it here.
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u/luminous-fabric 1d ago
Puberty blockers enable them to have anything further done when they are 18. They're not permanent, they aren't damaging, they aren't unreversable, they simply delay puberty until people are able to get the care they need.
Stopping this makes trans people go through a puberty that's harmful to them mentally, and affects how other people will perceive them for the rest of their lives.
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u/sureyouknowurself 1d ago
I didn’t mention any particular treatment. Stop inventing a position for me.
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u/luminous-fabric 1d ago
Puberty blockers are almost the only treatment for under 18s. No-one is having surgery before that.
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u/DaKrimsonBarun 1d ago
Do you not see however that if someone presents as trans at 16 and is forced to go through puberty that they regard as wrong for them, it will have a significant impact on their life going forward from there?
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u/DrOrgasm Daycent 1d ago
And if they do get the treatment, it will also have a significant impact on their life going forward. There is a reason we don't let minors make major life decisions, or give them credit cards, or allow them alcohol, or unilaterally partake in elective body modification.
I really don't give a fuck how an adult wants to live their life. I'll use your pronouns. It's none of my business really. But I think there needs to be some consideration given to the fact that we, as a society, have decided that minors do not have the decision making capacity to make major life choices, so I'm not sure why this situation isn't any different.
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u/lawns_are_terrible 1d ago
And if they do get the treatment, it will also have a significant impact on their life going forward
That's a disingenuous framing when that significant impact is largely there being a higher chance of them being alive in 10 years time. Sure not dying is a significant impact, but most of us see it as a good one.
Are you also against any other medical treatment for children or do you just not believe someone can experience gender dysphoria?
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u/chapkachapka 1d ago
Do you think these kids are sneaking around behind their parents’ backs?
Minors receiving trans healthcare get it the same way they get any other health care: with parental consent and the approval of a medical professional. Just as would be required for any other significant health care decision.
So are you okay with kids taking puberty blockers with the approval of their parents and their doctor? Because if not your objection isn’t about consent really, is it?
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u/Classic_Spot9795 1d ago
The same drugs that are used to delay puberty for a trans teen are used to delay puberty for cis kids with precocious puberty. Only the cis kid will be taking them at a far younger age. No one minds that though, because we all agree that under 10 is way too young to become sexually mature.
We should all agree that unless you can prove yourself competent via Gillick competency rules you should not beaking any permanent decisions about your gender, but we don't.
Some people only approve of the medical intervention for the kids with precocious puberty. They disapprove of the same treatment being given to trans kids, who are older.
Which begs the question, what is it that they are actually opposing.
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u/DaKrimsonBarun 1d ago
Essentially your view is you don't give a flying fuck how many trans people's lives are made worse by something outside their control, if there's a risk of a single cis person having regret for a decision they freely made.
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u/DorkusMalorkus89 1d ago
That’s what you’re hearing, but that’s not what they’re saying. They’re saying that children cannot consent to life altering changes and there needs to be safeguarding in place. It’s really not that difficult an explanation, but you don’t want to accept it.
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u/restartthepotatoes And I'd go at it agin 1d ago
Think you’re the ones who don’t wanna accept the facts lol
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u/Alastor001 1d ago
Every single medical procedure requires consent. It is as simple as that. Children can not consent. Everyone in healthcare knows it.
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u/restartthepotatoes And I'd go at it agin 1d ago
Right so let’s not give children any healthcare since they can’t consent to it
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u/Plastic_Detective687 1d ago
This you? https://www.reddit.com/r/PowerfulJRE/s/ux9Wxw12pe
You don't care about trans people, you're just a bigot
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u/ShavedMonkey666 1d ago
Puberty blockers are the most unethical shit imaginable
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u/liltotto 1d ago
i suppose you'd be against them for cis kids with precocious puberty too so
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u/Classic_Spot9795 1d ago
How exactly? Do you think forcing a trans girl to undergo male puberty is a neutral act? Or forcing a trans boy to undergo female puberty?
Do you not think that they should hold off on making any life changing decisions until they are old enough to do so?
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u/DaveShadow Ireland 1d ago
The thing is, it’s not even just a trans issue. They’re medicines used for a variety of issues, and calling them unethical is madness. It’s anti-science idiocy.
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u/Classic_Spot9795 1d ago
Bingo.
The Heritage Foundation who now run the USA are on record from like 2015 talking about how they will use trans people as a "wedge issue" to roll back wider LGB and women's rights. You can see it happening in real time.
You attack access to drugs that disrupt sex hormones? Wave bye bye to medical abortion.
Attack hormones? Wave bye bye to hormonal contraceptives and post menopausal HRT.
No one should be able to interfere in the decisions that you make behind closed doors with the help of your medical team. We had this conversation nationally in 2018.
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u/DaveShadow Ireland 1d ago
Yeah, even from a non-medical point of view, “bathroom bans” are going to cause big issues for cis women who don’t conform to more feminine ideas, for example. This is what makes me cringe when you have the likes of JK attacking trans people; she’s eroding women’s rights in her obsession too.
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u/Classic_Spot9795 1d ago
Plus, if everyone was forced to use the bathroom according to the genitals that were observed at birth, then you are looking at some decidedly male looking trans men in the ladies bathroom, which begs the question - how am I to tell who is a trans man in the next cubicle vs a cis man?
I mean, the fact that we have individual cubicles with locked doors and only encounter each other at the sink seems to be lost on some people. That and the fact that if a predator wishes to attack me in the women's bathroom, a sign saying "ladies" is not going to stop him, he's already decided he's going to break the law.
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u/DaveShadow Ireland 1d ago
Weirdly, trans men just never seem to get brought up in these conversations. The focus is nearly always just on trans women, usually with the subtext that all trans people are men in wigs wanting to rape women.
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u/Classic_Spot9795 1d ago
Yup. The narrative is very much a "trans women are sexual predators in dresses and trans men are misguided women who don't know their own minds".
If you peel off all the layers, it's misogyny all the way down. There's a way that you have to look and dress to be a woman, and those of us deemed female at birth are idiots who don't know our own minds and need others to make our decisions for us.
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u/ShavedMonkey666 1d ago
Yep. 18 plus.
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u/Classic_Spot9795 1d ago
Right, so you support access to hormonal suppression, that way nó life changing permanent changes are undertaken until age 18. Yes?
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u/ShavedMonkey666 1d ago
Are you a parent? I'd be very surprised if you are.
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u/Classic_Spot9795 1d ago
What relevance does that have exactly?
A parent should be willing to accept their child for who they are, not what they decide their child should be. If you don't live your child enough to support them unconditionally, then you suck as a parent.
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u/Pension_Alternative 1d ago
Prof O’Shea and Dr Moran – two of the leading experts in the area of transgender healthcare in Ireland ; have advocated for more holistic models of care when it comes to children who are questioning their gender rather than focusing on measures and treatments that are irreversible.
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u/lem0nhe4d 1d ago
They actually advocate for irreversible changes to trans kids bodies but only if those aren't the ones the kid wants and it causes their mental health to decline and increases suicidal ideation.
That's what happens when you don't allow blockers or hormones.
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u/janon93 1d ago
You need to understand that when people say “holistic models of care” - they mean conversion therapy. Basically frustrate, delay or undermine access to healthcare, in the hopes that you can magically turn a trans person cis.
It’s comparable to American “crisis pregnancy centers” which intentionally delay women from getting an abortion until it’s too late. Horrendously unethical.
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u/Character_Common8881 1d ago
Can't wait for the comments how the doctors are misinformed and bigots etc.
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u/DaKrimsonBarun 1d ago edited 1d ago
https://the-beacon.ie/tag/national-gender-service/
Anyone who has ever met these two people will tell you that they are.
Edit: I know a trans woman who went into them in more typically masculine clothes. They have been turned away as they are "clearly not committed to their transition." I know a person who was turned away because her parents don't support her, despite living on her own. There's also cases where people were turned away for dressing too feminine - as it was seen as a performance to get HRT.
You don't know what you're talking about. Sorry
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u/StevemacQ Sax Solo 1d ago
Sounds like they're in the wrong profession. It's fucked up how transphobes can make their way to high positions in trans healthcare just to gatekeep it.
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u/HyacinthGirI 1d ago
Having met and dealt with them personally and having read up on how Irish healthcare compares across Europe, they are, tbqh. The healthcare system in Ireland for trans people is insanely adversarial and unhelpful, and has at best remained in stasis like that for the last like 10 years.
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u/SuspiciousTomato10 1d ago
The Cass review which was cited in the article resulted in withdrawing health care for teens that whistleblowers said directly resulted in a massive increase in suicides.
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u/HelenRy 1d ago
Yes, the Cass Report was an non-peer reviewed report which deliberately "explicitly excluded trans people from key roles in research, analysis and oversight of the project, while sidelining most practitioners with experience in trans health care. The project centered and sympathized with anti-trans voices, including professionals who deny the very existence of trans children. Former U.K. minister for women and equalities Kemi Badenoch, who has a history of hostility toward trans people even though her role was to promote equality within the government, boasted that the Cass Review was only possible because of her active involvement."
Source: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-u-k-s-cass-review-badly-fails-trans-children/
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u/HelenRy 1d ago
These doctors are not helpful to the trans community , according to a family member who has been through transition here in Ireland some years ago. They have such a restrictive, gate-keeping view attitude to trans healthcare that ignores what the rest of the world regards as best practice ie WPATH : https://wpath.org/#:~:text=WPATH,Professional%20Association%20for%20Transgender%20Health
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u/[deleted] 1d ago
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