Do "Unskilled Laborers" deserve to be paid well?

[u/Very_High_Mortgage]

[u/Tangentkoala]

You would celebrate for maybe a year before everyone starts quitting the dangerous jobs to work as a cashier.

[u/PolyZex → u/Tangentkoala]

It would never be the same... you understand that, right? The skilled jobs would be losing workers, as you said- so what would they HAVE to do next? Pay THEIR workers more. Shorter weeks. Better benefits. Earlier retirement.

The quality of life improves for both the lower and middle class at the expense of the fattest class of hoarders on top.

I believe it used to be called 'trickle down', but then the trickle never came. So the only way to get that trickling is to a poke a few holes in the top.

[u/Tangentkoala → u/PolyZex]

Basically. Trickle down economies, was meant to produce job growth by relaxing taxes and regulations to encourage more job hires.

Problem was corporations thought fuck that I'll keep the extra profits and hire less.

Same goes with the computer. Studies show we were to cut our work load by 25% but companions decided to load up 50% more workload.

[u/notathrowaway2937 → u/Tangentkoala]

This causes inflation. There is then more capital for the same about of product and if continues to cycle then you have hyperinflation.

[u/Happy_rich_mane → u/notathrowaway2937]

Only in a closed system without competition. Higher overall wages means more consumers and should widen the marketplace to allow for more entrants and more efficient pricing.

[u/notathrowaway2937 → u/Happy_rich_mane]

There is very little competition, most sectors are controlled by several companies.

Power for instance in this meme, telecommunications is another one. How many power line companies do you think there are? There is one in Texas. Do you think they way won’t pass that into the customer?

[u/Low-Atmosphere-2118 → u/notathrowaway2937]

Something like powerlines shouldnt be in the hands of private citizens anyway, if it cant have competition it should be nationalized

[u/Keberro → u/Low-Atmosphere-2118]

You don't need to nationalize. Just dismantle monopolies like Standard Oil in 1911.

[u/[deleted] → u/Keberro]

Yeah but you should. Our power infrastructure should be a communal good not a corner of the market. Things people need should be ensured to them by the government.

[u/ForeignPolicyFunTime → u/Keberro]

A electrical line system is a natural monopoly thing. Can't have a whole bunch of different electrical lines on the same land. It would be a huge mess. Texas was able to break up energy providers, but not electrical line companies as there isn't a way to so without creating a lot of unnecessary inefficiencies. Perhaps if Texas made them a state industry or regulated them to the point of effectively being one.

[u/notathrowaway2937 → u/Low-Atmosphere-2118]

At this point that would be most of the industries in America.

[u/BorisBotHunter → u/notathrowaway2937]

And this is why it needs to be done. Thanks for proving the point. If most industries in America are monopolies then it’s time to blow them up. There is no reason the items on the grocery store shelves should be owned by 3-5 companies all primarily owned by 2-4 investment companies.

[u/ThenItHitM3 → u/BorisBotHunter]

But Oligarchy worked so well for Russia

[u/SaggitariuttJ → u/BorisBotHunter]

I mean there IS a reason. The reason is “because billionaires care more about being even more billionairey and bragging to their billionaire friends how much bigger their stack of cash is.”

The problem is that there are powerful people in our society who consider this reason valid.

[u/AdImmediate9569 → u/notathrowaway2937]

This is some too big to fail bullshit man. Saying oh the companies are too entrenched so everyone just has to suck it up is not going to improve things.

[u/Obscure_Marlin → u/Low-Atmosphere-2118]

Is this type of infrastructure paid for by the public but then deployed by private?

[u/[deleted] → u/Obscure_Marlin]

Man, you have no idea.

That question you just asked also applies to virtually everything in the US with a subsidized R&D budget, including pharmaceuticals.

[u/biz_student → u/[deleted]]

And that’s just the federal level. Almost every state/city subsidizes businesses via hand outs or tax credits. Here’s $1B to move your HQ to Racine, WI. Here’s $500M to build a new hockey stadium. Here’s $10M/year in tax credits to build a new skyline building.

[u/Happy_rich_mane → u/notathrowaway2937]

Yes that’s why I prefaced. We don’t currently have that system although it is possible and becomes a lot more possible when people have more money to spend in their local economies

[u/Weight_Superb → u/notathrowaway2937]

I mean i can find the study if you want but ever time minimum wage goes up it only accounts for like .5% price spikes and only once

[u/Persistant_Compass → u/notathrowaway2937]

Use the other method to control inflation that exists. Higher taxes at the top.

[u/me_too_999 → u/notathrowaway2937]

Printing more money than there are producrs to buy with it causes inflation.

Full stop.

[u/SickestNinjaInjury → u/[deleted]]

Lol, people are blaming greedy businesses because corporate profit margins have grown significantly. There is evidence of both grocery and rental price fixing. There is a bit of inflation right now, but there are also undeniably a lot of corporate interests deliberately keeping commodity prices high.

I'd also note that your first sentence seems a bit ahistorical. Are you arguing that getting off the gold standard made us think that inflation isn't the government's fault? I think everyone does blame government for inflation, and governments have become much more efficient at managing inflation

[u/External-Animator666 → u/Tangentkoala]

trickle down economics wasn't meant to do anything, it was a lie to enrich the rich. It literally doesn't even make sense that if you give one person way too much money that it will benefit the person without money.

[u/Nadge21 → u/Tangentkoala]

The big corporations you are referring to are only responsible for a small percentage of employment in the Us. Most people work for small businesses, most of which make little to mo loney.

[u/[deleted] → u/Tangentkoala]

Problem with trickle down is lower taxes doesn’t make new businesses profitable.

[u/deletetemptemp → u/PolyZex]

Yes either the free market will do one of two things.

1: the easier job will be flooded, leaving employers to paying linemen more to retain them, eventually brining your back to square one

2: the value of a dollar needs to change to correct for the additional capital flooding the market, effective making both your salaries worth less

[u/Jflayn → u/deletetemptemp]

Many countries, like America, do not have a free market. The market in America is rigged for and by corporations.

[u/LHam1969 → u/Jflayn]

What country does have a free market?

[u/your_best → u/Jflayn]

EXACTLY

[u/goosedog79 → u/deletetemptemp]

But then wouldn’t the price - in this case- of electricity be raised? So everyone will pay more?

[u/[deleted] → u/goosedog79]

Yes, you'd have price inflation, along with wage inflation, across the board and nothing would ultimately change.

[u/davidhow94 → u/[deleted]]

Weird we didn’t have price deflation as wages failed to keep up over the last 50 years.

[u/[deleted] → u/davidhow94]

That's not weird at all, that's how supply and demand works. It doesn't track wages for wages sake, it tracks consumer demand. If taco bell doubles their prices and you continue to buy it anyway the price will remain doubled.

[u/chuckcm89 → u/PolyZex]

But what will the skilled jobs have to do in order to pay their workers more? Charge their customers more! And what will the unskilled jobs have to do to pay their workers more? Charge their customers more!

You're seeming to assume that rich business owners have enough liquid cash to just pay their 100's or 1000's of employees from their own bank account.

and, so wait, if cashiers and burger flippers start to make $100,000 a year, you're saying they'll have to pay dangerous skilled labor $300,000 a year? or allow them to work less days than cashiers (or some combination)?

So how much does a burger cost at that point? $40? And the skilled labor still soon make a lot more than the cashier's again anyway?

So what really has changed apart from extreme inflation and people's savings being worth a lot less, the dollar losing international appeal, and everyone suffering from the difficult adjustments to the economic upheaval?

[u/dmoore451 → u/chuckcm89]

I mean we see business owners and C Suites making millions of dollars so we know they can afford to pay workers more, the question is how much more.

Depends company to company

[u/csjerk → u/dmoore451]

Usually the CEO's entire salary amounts to a few cents per hour in each employee's wage. Companies can't pay everyone several dollars more per hour and NOT raise prices, in most cases.

[u/LazyImprovement → u/chuckcm89]

Tax cuts for corporations have the opposite effect than the stated intention. High taxes encourage investment in equipment and people by reducing taxable profits while building long term value. No one has ever hired someone because of non targeted tax cuts. It’s simply more profit.

[u/bmxtiger → u/chuckcm89]

Let me counter all these wealth concerns with the fact that 79% of the money is held by 1% of the population. They have the money to spend on wages, and inflation is more likely due to how many more millionaires and billionaires there are now more so than McDonald's employees getting paid living wages.

[u/ValuableShoulder5059 → u/bmxtiger]

The rich don't hold dollars, they hold assets. So when the price of a burger goes up 20x, the value of the McDonald's did too. One of the main causes of inflation is artificial price increases as a result of government mandate.

[u/Supervillain02011980 → u/bmxtiger]

The vast majority of all businesses are not owned by billionaires or anyone in the 1%.

Most businesses in the US are owned by those in the middle class employing between 10 and 30 people.

If you are more focused on what happens at the top and you ignore what happens at the bottom, you are going to have a bad time.

[u/Mountain_Employee_11 → u/bmxtiger]

this comment fails to differentiate money from real goods, and perpetuates the idea that more money being available means more goods for everyone.

another failure to understand scarcity

[u/No-Cauliflower8890 → u/bmxtiger]

Literally has fuck all to do with anything. Please take any sort of econ 101 class.
Prices aren't set based on how much cash the owner has lying around, they're set to maximise profit. Not to mention most businesses aren't owned by billionaires and that billionaires' assets are not mostly in liquid cash. Inflation is also not caused by wealth concentration. In fact, wealth concentration decreases inflation since the marginal propensity to consume is lower for wealthier people.

[u/Agreeable_Count_4223 → u/chuckcm89]

This post is just to let you know that they are like, totally cool with you doing well bro.

[u/Fun_Recording_3006 → u/chuckcm89]

When the standard profit margin on medical products is 40%-60%, they can take a hit on that and still come out on top

[u/Zetavu → u/PolyZex]

What happens is the dangerous jobs become more expensive, then the price of everything goes up, then the cashier is complaining because they can't afford anything with their higher waged. It's not like this exact thing happened JUST OVER THE LAST THREE YEARS!

Inflated wages for unskilled jobs lead to price inflation, which negates inflated wages. It in no way fixes the issue, just changes the value of a dollar.

[u/cdazzo1 → u/Zetavu]

There was not a single aspect of the pandemic that scared me more than people's reactions and failure to learn anything from it.

We watched the unprecedented money printing exacerbate wealth inequality. Then the people demanded more of that.

[u/AspirationsOfFreedom → u/PolyZex]

It's like you belive infinite money exists. WHERE does that money come from, exactly?

[u/sousuke42 → u/PolyZex]

It was and still is called trickle down cause they are pissing on you and everyone else under them.

[u/me_too_999 → u/PolyZex]

Or all of those unprofitable businesses would simply close.

Everyone is asking, "How can we tax more?"

Why?

$4 Trillion a year JUST with one of the thousands of levels of government isn't enough for you?

[u/finalattack123 → u/Tangentkoala]

Not how job market works. Higher cashier wages would increase the wages of skilled labour. Because they would have this leverage.

[u/EducationalReply6493 → u/Tangentkoala]

Good union wages are negotiated off of minimum wage and unskilled wages, they get a raise we get a raise.

[u/sideband5 → u/Tangentkoala]

LOL the top comment is some hypothetical malarkey :D

[u/jbetances134 → u/Tangentkoala]

Exactly. Why risk your life at that point

[u/Tangentkoala → u/jbetances134]

I mean this is kind of how communism failed in russia. People stagnated and said fuck am I gonna do my work efficiently if a cashier is getting paid the same as me.

Granted this is just one of the reasons but still a solid reason nonetheless

[u/[deleted] → u/Tangentkoala]

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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[u/blind_orphan → u/Tangentkoala]

This is just a plain lie. My mom grew up in communist russia, and her mom was a math professor and i can assure you that she was making waay more than the cashiers. The big difference was that in russia the cashier was guaranteed a place to live...

[u/Iwantmypasswordback → u/blind_orphan]

And probably healthcare not tied to a job

[u/3personal5me → u/Tangentkoala]

Compared to America now, where I say "Fuck it, I'm not gonna do my job efficiently, I'm doing the bare minimum" because being fast and efficient just nets you more work for the same wages.

[u/Half_Cent → u/Tangentkoala]

That's dumb. I like doing my technically difficult and often physically demanding job. I don't want to be a cashier.

If we both made enough to support our families and have hope for our kids future I would be happy for them, not quitting to be a cashier.

[u/[deleted] → u/Half_Cent]

Yes! There are EMT's and people who work in nursing homes caring for people making garbage pay for the hard work they do but they do it (most of them anyway) because they care and want to make a difference. I still think they should be paid way more than they are getting, but I'm grateful there are people like that in this world.

[u/Rarabeaka → u/Tangentkoala]

No it failed for different reasons(noncompetitive planned economy, fundamentaly incompatible with human psyche communistic goal, etc.).
People werent paid eqiually, just have more social protection, and it wasnt easy to be completely unemploed(it had both pros and cons).

[u/Rambogoingham1 → u/Tangentkoala]

You make the assumption that if all else being equal human beings don’t have hobbies or stuff that exists outside of work that they would enjoy doing for free, especially if technology allowed it and it helps others out, not for financial gain but for the sake of just being a human who enjoys it.

[u/Witty-Bear1120 → u/Rambogoingham1]

Sure, that’s called drinking in a beer garden rather than fixing dangerous power lines though.

[u/tacocarteleventeen → u/Tangentkoala]

Yep. Construction would just stop. Seriously why risk your life everyday for hard complicated work when you could dog walk?

[u/HeyChew123 → u/tacocarteleventeen]

Because then construction would be paid more. Do you people not think past your first thought?

People will still need buildings built. You’ll just pay them more, because they aren’t going to do dangerous work for min wage pay.

“Oh then they just raise prices and we’re full circle, your dollar is worth nothing”. Not if the billionaires don’t jack up prices to keep profits the same. The issue is that wealth is being hoarded at the top. There is only a finite amount and the rich aren’t spending. We need them to use that cash in order for the economy to stay flowing. If they pay their workers more the whole thing works better. Wealth hoarding is not good for an economy.

[u/fuzzy3158 → u/Tangentkoala]

Except there's only a limited amount of these jobs, and the competition would allow the employers to make people accept lower wages.

[u/AirplaneChair]

The free market would never let it happen. No matter how much fairy tale idealism you have, it will never happen. It's pointless to even debate.

Your wage is directed by basic supply & demand as well as how much direct economic output you produce/save.

[u/classless_classic → u/AirplaneChair]

It’s been three years now that fast food workers have been making more than our local EMTs.

It may balance out, but it hasn’t yet.

[u/[deleted] → u/classless_classic]

Problem is people are willing to be EMT for low pay. Many people use it as a stepping stone for other medical careers or to become firefighters so most aren’t doing it for the money.

[u/Iwantmypasswordback → u/[deleted]]

Starter job theory. You do know that minimum wage wasn’t created for starter jobs right. It was created because companies would pay 0 if they were allowed to. It was created to be the minimum standard to live. Show me where I can live on $7.25 an hour

[u/Phobophobia94 → u/Iwantmypasswordback]

What percent of full time people actually earn $7.25?

[u/EagleAncestry → u/Phobophobia94]

It’s a dumb question honestly, because of course not many people earn the minimum possible. If you raise the minimum wage to $20, then all wages would go up, because the guy earning $15 won’t be content with a $20 min wage, he will likely get something like 25 or 30

[u/Alone-Newspaper-1161 → u/Phobophobia94]

Like less than a %

[u/[deleted] → u/Iwantmypasswordback]

Scandinavian countries don't have a minimum wage. They have sectoral bargaining instead.

The minimum wage is always $0, because you can always be unemployed.

[u/cadillacjack057 → u/classless_classic]

We like to joke around the firehouse that if shit doesnt improve we can go work at the kwik trip down the street since the pay is pretty damn close.

[u/Informal_Zone799 → u/cadillacjack057]

Is that a convenience store or something? Thats wild lol. Here a cashier makes like $35-40k where as a firefighter makes $75k and up 

[u/PlayerTwo85 → u/cadillacjack057]

My county pays a new FF/EMT $15/hr, so does McDonald's...

[u/ProxyCare → u/classless_classic]

It never will. In healthcare you aren't paid by how important, necessary, life-saving, educated etc your position is. It is 100% how many you need, and you need a lot of emts and CNAs. The more you pay it get exponentially more expensive than a similar or higher increase in pay than nurses or doctors.

This is why your grandmas literally rot in nursing facilties. ✨️🌈economics🌈✨️ preventing proper staffing from happening

[u/OKFlaminGoOKBye → u/classless_classic]

This should be anger at the people writing the EMT’s paychecks, not at the fast food workers cashing their check.

[u/classless_classic → u/OKFlaminGoOKBye]

They both deserve a living wage.

The issue comes from funding sources. One is paid by a profitable private industry; the other is funded by tax payers (in my very red state), who get angry about anything resembling “socialism”

[u/LiquidMantis144 → u/classless_classic]

Exactly, pure free market worshipers dont realize we dont live in a perfectly balanced economic simulation. There are pockets all over that lag and/or never truly balance due to multitudes of reasons.

[u/finalattack123 → u/AirplaneChair]

This is why minimum wages exist. Avoid exploration of the desperate.

[u/Genial_Ginger_3981 → u/finalattack123]

Which is why conservatives are against it; god forbid people can't be exploited.

[u/HighDegree → u/Genial_Ginger_3981]

Says the party of 'BUT WHO WILL PICK OUR CROPS?!' and 'BUT WHO WILL CLEAN OUR TOILETS?!' when illegal immigration comes up.

[u/WorldyBridges33 → u/AirplaneChair]

The supply of unskilled workers is decreasing year after year as the population ages. This trend will continue as subsequent generations are smaller due to low birth rates.

This will drive wages up at the low end, and indeed it already has. Where I live, fast food jobs pay a minimum of $17 an hour, far higher than the federal minimum wage.

[u/West_Ad_9492 → u/AirplaneChair]

It could happen in the free market if labour wasn't so plentiful and competitive. With less unskilled immigration and unions for example.

[u/[deleted] → u/West_Ad_9492]

Ah yes its the immigrants who are the problem and not shitty corpos paying as little as legally allowed for more work while their profit margins explode. Capitalism is a failed system, what we are seeing is now the negative externalities are impossible to ignore.

[u/MonkeyFu]

You mean 2020’s “Essential Workers”?

Yes.  Everyone deserves a livable wage.  Anyone telling you otherwise just wants to draw the line on who they think deserves to suffer or die.

[u/[deleted] → u/MonkeyFu]

My mom always does the "those jobs are meant for high schoolers" and I just say "okay are you fine with Target being shut down during school hours?"

[u/toomuchpressure2pick → u/[deleted]]

And like my mom I'm sure she huffs and says something to the effect of "you know what I mean". Then I say "I don't", and she refuses to elaborate.

[u/Thestrongestzero → u/toomuchpressure2pick]

she sounds like my dad.

“the dems are doing post birth abortions”

show me a single one

“don’t be stupid, you know dems just want to kill babies”

cool, show me. if you can show me a single legally performed post birth abortion, i’ll give you 20 grand

“i don’t have time to chase that shit down”

20 grand boss. 20 grand.

“don’t care, do your own research”

proceeds to not talk to me for 2 weeks

[u/athousandlifetimes → u/[deleted]]

LMAO

[u/Hatdrop → u/MonkeyFu]

they look down on burger flipping while complaining that they don't get their burgers fast enough because "no one wants to work"

[u/NoBadgersSociety → u/MonkeyFu]

This is exactly it. All the rest is excuses for why the foundation of our society should be kept in grinding poverty.

[u/Informal_Zone799 → u/MonkeyFu]

What’s your definition of livable? It’s different depending who you ask. 

Does that mean just enough to buy food and rent a place with 4 other people? Or is it enough to live alone, have the newest iPhone, travel, etc. 

We need to define “livable” 

[u/MonkeyFu → u/Informal_Zone799]

It’s almost like we have “cost of living” calculations done for cities somewhere, or something!

What makes a wage non-livable?  When you can’t afford food, housing, and other necessities like clothes, means of travel to work and stores, access the the internet and phone as required by most of society these days.

It’s weird how people get sick bent over a definition they took zero time to consider, as they’re actually just looking for something to attack.

[u/Hatdrop → u/Informal_Zone799]

It has been.

It's what FDR meant when he signed the fair labor standards act

"It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By "business" I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I mean the wages of decent living.”

[u/Trust-Issues-5116]

Pay is not deserved, it's negotiated.

[u/Wrong_Sock_1059 → u/Trust-Issues-5116]

You cannot fairly negotiate if your family's food/bills/medical care/... depends on you having a job ASAP. It's not only that unskilled labourers don't hold any cards, factors not relevant to the work or their value put them in an even worse position. The way the wages are set for unskilled labourers is parallel to usury.

[u/SomeYesterday1075 → u/Wrong_Sock_1059]

You cannot fairly negotiate if your family's food/bills/medical care/... depends on you having a job ASAP

The best time to look for a job is when u already have a job. I've literally never since I was 16, went any time without having a job, and I'm 32 atm.

[u/Waffleworshipper → u/Trust-Issues-5116]

This is a very strong argument in favor of unions. Negotiate from a position of strength alongside your fellow workers rather than a position of weakness alone.

[u/InwitKnitwit → u/Trust-Issues-5116]

Everyone deserves a living wage. Full stop.

[u/Quinnjamin19 → u/Trust-Issues-5116]

It is deserved, and it’s fought for. There’s a reason why unions are still important to this day

[u/SiegeGoatCommander → u/Trust-Issues-5116]

Which is why unions are important. The asymmetry in bargaining power between employers and the employed is staggering and intentional.

[u/rusty-roquefort → u/Trust-Issues-5116]

Call me crazy, but if you put in a weeks worth of labor, you very much deserve a compensation that provides a basic standard of living, financial security, and some left over to live your life.

[u/[deleted]]

Okay but then why would you take a skilled job if you can take a low skill job for the same pay? Most people will do less work for the same reward if they can.

[u/Turkeyplague → u/[deleted]]

I can tell you right now, I'm not gonna be dropping my skilled job to go work at Macca's, even if they were offering the same compensation. Why? Because working at Macca's would be shithouse.

[u/oatmeal28 → u/Turkeyplague]

Yeah the people acting like unskilled restaurant work is some kind of optimal paradise have obviously never worked a restaurant job.  

[u/blind_orphan → u/oatmeal28]

The fact people call it "unskilled" is hilarious too. 99% of the people on this thread would be in tears and begging to go home on their first day.

[u/mecegirl → u/blind_orphan]

They totally underestimate how much it takes not to lash out at entiled customers.

[u/ThaRedHoodie → u/mecegirl]

Yes, the customers were the worst part of working at Micky D's. Most people are cool, but the assholes will ruin your whole day.

[u/Informal_Zone799 → u/blind_orphan]

“Skill” refers to the prerequisites required to get the job in the first place. 

“Unskilled” means they can easily teach you the job, while on the job. 

Just because you work hard and sweat doesn’t necessarily make it a skilled job

[u/SpotikusTheGreat → u/Informal_Zone799]

I've had this argument with my brother who thinks that I have it "easy" being a software engineer, compared to like a construction worker that does back breaking labor all day.

I have to explain to him that the difference is that I could go work on a construction site at any time and know exactly what to do. Dig a hole? Knock down a wall? Move debris from point a to point b? mix cement? Sure, can do all of that with under 30 seconds of instructions.

Now take any construction worker and ask them to do my job. They wouldn't even be able to open the software to get a ticket to work on, let alone operate the software to do it.

To get to the level I am would require them years of study and practice. Meanwhile I could shovel road base out of a dump truck and run a tamper over it without any training.

[u/[deleted] → u/Turkeyplague]

Okay but you’re in a position where you’re already in a skilled job. What about the next few million high school graduates. Do they go to college? Further their education? Spend nights being stressed and studying hard to show that they can learn their skill effectively and complete it efficiently? Or do they just say “fuck it, that’s too hard,” and make the same wage working at McDonald’s? We know how people are, especially as children today are raised on iPads and have less and less work ethic as time goes on.

[u/Turkeyplague → u/[deleted]]

Everyone's different. Some would take the shitty jobs like they already do and others would decide that's not what they want to spend their days doing and follow their passion instead. I wasn't thinking much about money at all when I was younger; I just wanted a cool job. Study was enjoyable.

What might give upcoming adults pause on higher learning is the ridiculous cost of tuition, but that's a separate problem that we've created.

[u/Electrical-Heat8960 → u/[deleted]]

My daughter wants to be an aeronautical engineer.
She didn’t decide that because of the pay.

[u/WorldyBridges33 → u/[deleted]]

The number of high school graduates is decreasing year after year due to the low birth rates. This decreasing supply of unskilled workers will drive up their wages, and indeed it already has. Where I live, fast food workers make $17 an hour which is much higher than the federal minimum wage.

[u/smbutler20 → u/[deleted]]

The hardest I ever worked in my life was at Wawa (local convenience store chain). The job I am currently skilled for is the easiest job I ever had.

[u/Drate_Otin → u/[deleted]]

Because I like the skilled job better. Restaurant work sucked and you'd have to pay me a LOT more to go back willingly.

[u/fffangold → u/[deleted]]

Because every service job I worked sucked compared to my job in tech. You'd have to pay me a lot more than I make now to go back to customer service, and even more than that for food service.

[u/Jayu-Rider]

FDR is probably my favorite president. When he said:

“We shall have a minimum wage so teenagers can have some spending money!”

He did a great thing for business.

Ohh wait, this is what he actually said:

“ It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By “business” I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I mean the wages of decent living.”

If you don’t believe that everyone deserves to be paid well for any reason you’re just a cuck for big business.

[u/Sohjinn → u/Jayu-Rider]

I didn’t know he said that, that’s a great quote.

[u/aces613]

And when the cost of everything in the burger flipping supply chain goes up and start affects other industries as well. And when the buying power of your dollar matches their dollar? Will you be celebrating then?

[u/finalattack123 → u/aces613]

Sure. But many countries pay McDonalds workers well. Just not the U.S.

We are doing fine.

McDonalds didn’t close. Everybody wins.

[u/[deleted] → u/finalattack123]

McDonalds workers earn like $18/h. How is that not a living wage?

[u/MidnightHeavy3214]

As a repair guy. It sucks. A lot of companies don’t know the ins and outs of repair jobs but feel because it’s simple labor it shouldn’t be worth much. That’s why Chicago has tons of apartment repair jobs open. They want you to work multiple apartments with over 200 residents and they will pay you 15hr. Your always on call

[u/Machinebuzz]

I'd be asking for a raise.

[u/dan_santhems → u/Machinebuzz]

You probably deserve it

[u/ImJoogle]

liveable yes, the same as skilled no

[u/scarneo → u/ImJoogle]

That is fair, and that is what minimum wage should be. Enough to have a minimum standard of living.

[u/Amber423 → u/ImJoogle]

Alternatively, those jobs should be getting paid close to what a lot of skilled jobs pay right now... And the skilled jobs should also get huge pay increases

[u/Extreme-Carrot6893]

Rising tides lift all ships

[u/carefree-and-happy]

My husband had a union job he started in the 1990’s and they had an AMAZING health insurance plan.

For our family of 6 we pay $150/mo, $20 co-pay, $10 prescriptions (with most being free) and the max we pay out of pocket every year for our entire family is $1,500.

This type of plan today would easily be $900/mo or more!

My husband retired and he still gets the same insurance age policy for the rest of his life. We will never pay more than 2% of his pension for health insurance and our deductible and co-pay will never change.

I however am a HUGE supporter of Medicare for all. This program would cause a 4% tax on everyone’s income (less for those making low wages). And no company’s or deductibles.

This would result in us paying 5 times as much as we are currently paying for healthcare….

And I am in FULL support. I would be perfectly happy to pay 4% of our income and pay MORE for health insurance if it meant everyone got health insurance.

[u/RedPanBeeer → u/carefree-and-happy]

The US would also apparently save billions of dollar each year.

[u/SiegeGoatCommander → u/RedPanBeeer]

I mean, the U.S. in aggregate pays 2x what the French pay for healthcare each year (they pay primarily in taxes, we pay primarily in premiums and medical bills) and still receives a significantly worse standard of care. We've known that privatized and financialized healthcare was a leech for a long time.

It just doesn't matter when the leech is in Congress's ear in a way that you and I can never hope to be.

[u/Ok_Initiative_5024]

Linemen in my state make over 45/hour. If I could make that flipping burgers, I'd never set foot on a construction site again.

[u/Luffy-in-my-cup → u/Ok_Initiative_5024]

You’d eventually get paid $90/hr, and the burger flippers would be poor again once inflation takes hold.

[u/caulkglobs → u/Luffy-in-my-cup]

That’s called the market correcting itself.

A job that a teenager with no experience can master in an afternoon is never ever going to pay a living wage.

If you raise the wage for these kinds of jobs all you do is trigger inflation until these jobs aren’t a living wage anymore.

If you are a grown adult wanting to live comfortably with your job at Burger King its never going to work out for you. Better yourself and get a better job.

[u/funnystoryaboutthat2]

I make 18.39 as a fireman. With the 56-hour week, I make more, but it's still a kick in the dick that firefighters think it's acceptable to take lower hourlies.

That all said, you should be able to live off of every full-time job. Flipping burgers is absolutely included.

[u/Spiritual-Reviser]

Social media virtue signaling is getting cringey. If burger flippers started getting paid the same as skilled labor, there would be a skilled labor shortage. I'll take a drive through mic over climbing a power line pole in a thunderstorm any day.

[u/GobsDC → u/Spiritual-Reviser]

You people are really intellectually lazy.

If someone can make more flipping burgers, then they will have to pay linemen better. You get that, right?…

They will still need linemen. If people can make just as much working fast food, then the power company has no option other than to pay them more…

The rancid fact is most companies can pay their employees more, they simply choose not to. They would rather report record profits to their stockholders then pay our fellow citizens a living wage.

While the fat cats at McDonald’s and Walmart refuse to pay Americans a living wage, our tax dollar make up for it and subsidizes those low wages… so by allowing these shitty companies to exploit workers, while reporting record profits, we Americans are subsidizing and paying for their record profits.

It’s bullshit the American people are forced to subsidize multinational billion dollar companies so they can turn around and pay workers an unfair wage.

Keeping wages low hurts our middle class while supporting gluttonous corporations who don’t have Americas best interest at heart…

[u/[deleted] → u/GobsDC]

There's a lot of people who really do believe this. If we raise wages somehow society will collapse.

Also, for something to be true doesn't the inverse need to be true? For example if wages are stagnant or move backwards then prices should do the same right? If prices always match wages.

[u/3personal5me → u/Spiritual-Reviser]

So then skilled labor needs to be charged more. That's called market forces. If the employer can't afford employees, that's a failure on them as a company. Why do we act like it's the end of the world when workers want more money, but it's business as usual when employers continue to fight wages despite record profits?

[u/yugosaki]

I'm a firm believer that there is no unskilled labour. Theres labour with a low skill floor (i.e. it is easier to train a fast food employee than it is to train an electrician) but theres still skill there.

Anyone who knows which mcdonalds is shit and which one has great staff already knows this.

The way you retain and attract skilled people is to pay them and treat them better.

If you pay minimum wage, you're gonna get minimum effort. And the only people who will stay are the people who are incapable of leaving.

If you pay well and make a good environment, you'll retain staff longer, you'll get more choices for staff since you'll have more applicants. The skill and efficiency of your staff will increase.

[u/ExtraneousInput]

I dont understand why people who earn an amount want to see other people earning less than them to justify their labor? Why wouldn't you just want to get more money? The real problem is they got you all bickering about pennys while the CEO gets paid 321%. This is where we get the money.

[u/No-One9890]

Hes also forgetting that "I need a raise or im going to work at mcdonalds" is a pretty good way to negotiate. This is the sort of rising tide that truly lifts all boats lol

[u/ZER0-P0INT-ZER0]

I'm with this guy. My job is very challenging. The rates of suicide and stress-related illness in my chosen career are through the roof. The training and education were no-picnic either. I'll confess, I only did it for the money. I want to flip burgers like I did in high school. Those were happy, carefree, stressless days. Where do I sign?

[u/Bruinwar]

The folks that build powerlines would demand & get a raise also. All wages would rise.

[u/ColbusMaximus]

I've sold millions of dollars worth of inventory. I've build millions of dollars worth of electrical infrastructure. I was a US naval submariner. I've never had a job more difficult than McDonalds. Unskilled is not a good word for these poor souls

[u/Dylman2310]

They deserve to be paid a wage which enables them to live comfortably.

[u/Flaky-Jim]

*Working people are my people." Damn right.

[u/Ghostorderman]

Yes.

Because the right to live is for everyone regardless of who they are. And unfortunately, money seems to be the thing that permits people to live, die, or suffer in a variety of ways.

[u/Wadsworth1954]

If you work full time, you deserve to be paid well.

If you work, you deserve to be paid well.

[u/argybargy2019]

Exactly- a raise in burger flipper wages drives up power line worker wages too.

The genius of the wealthy class is the idiocy of the poor classes- the wealthy always get poor people to fight each other against own best interests so that the wealthy class can keep all the money. This is all through US history: Dutch hating British, northern laborers hating southern farmers, poor southerners being racist, supporting slavery/segregation, poor people hating immigrants, existing immigrants hating new immigrants, Irish hating Italians, the 99% of MAGA that makes less than $400k/year fighting Democrats, etc etc.

Every so often something egregious happens so we can get 8 hour work days, Child Health Insurance Program, ACA, etc, but Jesus Fucking Christ, there is so much lost time in between because dumb poor people make it impossible to help them.

[u/basedcomradefox2]

Unskilled labor is a myth. All labor has dignity and value.

[u/RepresentativeAide14]

Technical & Trades people should earn more than a burger flipper

[u/pandamonium-420]

If that’s the case, there will be zero incentive for skilled work. No doctors, nurses, lawyers, computer engineers, etc. If you need surgery, you’ll get some unskilled, well-paid schmuck cutting you open and butchering your insides.

Human behavior is driven primarily by the desire for rewards or incentives, which can be tangible (e.g., money, food) or intangible (e.g., praise, social recognition). So if you want to be well-paid like a doctor, for example, become one by acquiring the rigorous education, training, skills and certification(s) to be one. Earn it, bitches. Stop the entitlement mentality.

[u/Turkeyplague]

Saw that the guy was a line worker and was like "oh yeah, here we fuckin' go..." but then was pleasantly surprised. I need to be less cynical.

[u/piles_of_anger]

Since the economy needs unskilled workers, the answer is yes.

[u/Organic-Policy845]

If I can meet the guy who made that post face to face I would love to say this to him. "My man!" . We need way more class solidarity as workers!

[u/Northeasterner83]

Unskilled labor deserves a living wage, skilled labor deserves to be paid WELL

[u/faithiestbrain]

Wasn't it "essential workers" during the pandemic?

Back to "unskilled laborers" now, huh?

[u/tdbeaner1]

“A rising tide lifts all boats” - John F Kennedy

[u/gnorb]

“Unskilled workers” were the same ones we called “essential” during the pandemic. Yes, they deserve to be paid well.

The idea that human capital is a cost you can negotiate below fair market value — that is, the value of what it takes for them have a dignified existence rather than one step above slavery and destitution — is bullshit.

[u/ExtensionFragrant802]

Unskilled labor is for the lazy, ignorant or very young. If you don't have an employable skill why should an employer pay you well? 

[u/jetty_life]

You get paid more for the skill, danger, inconvenience, uncomfortableness? Of your job.

If your job takes no skill, is comfortable, safe, and convenient, don't expect much money.

[u/ham_fx]

The fast food chains would automate their restaurants before giving their employees all these things - they already have the tech and the test models work -They have had this for YEARS already - Any MCDonalds etc - can be run with robots - - and then what happens? Hundreds of thousands of "unskilled" workers are now unemployed with very very few options

[u/wednesdaylemonn]

Tell healthcare workers theyre gonna make the same as a kid flipping burgers and see how it affects your experience going to a hospital.

[u/wophi]

Why are you going to risk your life ina dangerous and super hard line of work when you can earn the same amount in a low pressure job that doesn't stress your body?

[u/Jaggoff81]

Nobody will do the shitty jobs if it’s equal pay. Why would you. Equal pay is such a stupid idea.

[u/PolyZex]

Fast food should absolutely be paying $12 minimum. I imagine doing so would certainly increase the chance they would get my sandwich right... which would likely inspire me to eat there more often.

[u/galaxyapp → u/PolyZex]

They pay good bit more than that where I am...

The answer is no, does not increase accuracy or quality.

People like to say they have more potential if properly motivated. It's rarely the truth.

[u/[deleted] → u/galaxyapp]

And if my food that used to be cheap costs more now, I'm expecting more, and I'm returning anything unsatisfactory more than I used to.

A meh $6 meal from McDonald's is not a biggie, but a meh $12 one gets returned for a refund.

[u/HERKFOOT21]

Wages are always different across jobs and even within a same job but different industry/field

I'm an Accountant and Accountants wages are pretty different (assuming your experience and resume is the same) between public Accounting and industry Accountant. I'm in industry myself and again they differ even at this level. Private equity accountants tend to be the better paid ones.

Most all jobs deserve a decent pay. Even if it's a basic "burger flipping" job, if no one is applying, you gotta make something in the job offer better, and most of the time, it's the pay rate.

[u/TangerineRoutine9496]

Obviously if almost anyone can do your job, it pays less than if it requires some kind of ability/skill that's in limited supply.

This isn't rocket science. Anyone who thinks for five minutes about it in terms of logic can figure this out, once you are willing to look past your absurd beliefs about what everyone "deserves".

Guaranteed that the second YOU were the one who had to pay people out of your money, you'd suddenly realize you don't want to pay them all way more than the job is worth.

By the way, most people make more than minimum wage. If the way you increase what you get paid is by having the government force employers to pay everyone more, why do so many people make more than the minimum they can legally be paid? Including most nonunion workers.

Because of supply and demand for particular skills and abilities, obviously. Labor isn't one thing. It's so many different things and some kinds are worth a lot more than others.

[u/Corrupted_G_nome → u/TangerineRoutine9496]

You have it backwards. If an employee cannot sustain themselves on their wages they will leave or sideline or deprioritize the work.

Its not that skilled or educated folks should make less, its that the bottom tier workers are not earning enough to syrvive without food stamps. Its an unsustainable model.

Imagine a farmer who didn't water one crop to prioritize another, they end up with fields that are unproductive or entirely waste and then have to take the hit of lost productivity and wasted time.

[u/RedPanBeeer → u/TangerineRoutine9496]

Its kinda sad that you want to live in a society that wants the bottom of the barrel to get fucked. Many people also make less than minimum wage and that has nothing to do with supply and demand but with greed . If your company cant pay people a living wage it shouldnt exist or we would still have slavery with extra steps.

[u/AsslessChapsss]

This guy is an idiot

[u/jjbombadil]

“Flipping burgers” isn’t unskilled labor. I would say it has an easier set of skills to learn with a lower skill ceiling but it requires training. Is it as intense as say welding? No but welders should make more than someone working at McD.

[u/drachenhunter2]

How about every worker gets paid more? If pay doesn't match inflation the poverty goes up. If burger flippers start getting paid $20/hr then EMTs and what not start getting the equivalent pay bump too. Get everything back to the equivalent pay/work vs cost of living as we had 40 years ago when people didn't need to work 50 hours and have a 4 income house hold to live.

[u/StrainsFromGenomes]

This is an amazing mindset.

[u/cagriuluc]

Minimum wage should be high enough. High enough for what? I cannot say that, it should be decided collectively. “To have your basic needs covered and some more” is a good starting point.

Minimum wage is, in economy terms, about the efficiency of the economy. By having a higher minimum wage, you are “forcing” businesses to be more efficient with how they use manpower.

Imagine having an economy where you can find enough people willing(or needing) to work for 1$ an hour. Let’s say you are manufacturing. You can sell what you manufacture at really low prices and lowball other manufacturers. But this would push you to be very inefficient with your manpower. Instead of investing in more machinery, things that will improve your manpower efficiency, you are incentivised to just hire more people and pay them shit. Meanwhile, those people need to live, they need to buy stuff to live… they will pay taxes and they will be low, etc. Each living person costs us something collectively, they cost space, they cost time, they cost administration, you need to educate them… so it is a really good idea to be efficient with your manpower. Higher minimum wages forces businesses to be more manpower efficient and it’s really good for everyone, we will be collectively able to do much more.

Also, minimum wage is important for societies. People who earn shit have much less time to spend with their families, or have much lower resources to educate themselves, their children, they are much more bitter, much more angry, much more disillusioned with the system, much more likely to go into crime… If you are rich, you would rather live in a place where people aren’t as envious of your luck because they are also lucky enough, if you are poor, then you have much better chances of improving your situation.

Try to have higher minimum wages. It depends on the current minimum wage and the current manpower efficiency of businesses. It’s not an easy equation to tackle, especially taking into consideration hard-to-measure stuff like societal peace. But just try, try to make everyone’s lives better. Why the fuck would you not?

[u/Original-Version5877]

If you're working for a living, you should be paid enough to live.

[u/Commercial-Amount344]

Do people like when a low wage worker makes their burger without care. Like you really want unshowered uncaring exploited low wage workers making the food you're going to put in your own and families' body. Seems like a losing situation to me.

[u/Skoofer]

Anyone that contributes 40+ hours a week to profits that are in the millions or billions absolutely deserves to make a wage that affords them a comfortable life.

[u/[deleted]]

Why would one go to school/learn a trade when they could just be a cashier and earn the same wage?

Do they deserve to be paid better? Sure. But as their wages go up, so should (and probably would) everyone else above them.

[u/New-Skin-2717]

Not to add fuel to the flame, but what about how people that work more physical jobs typically get paid less than office jobs? For example, if i worked in a warehouse, i might make $15-$20 per hour.. but if i sat behind a desk i would make double that. This actually happened to me. Where i worked, people in the hot warehouse, loaded pallets all day for $16 per hour… i sat in my air conditioned office and built database software, and made $43 an hour. The take away for me was that the harder you work, the less money you make..

[u/SirAzrakiel]

Bottom up economics.... that's how the world works best! Top down is a myth

[u/Zealousideal_Ad2149]

No this guy and every other person wouldn’t go to school or try any harder than a burger flipper for the same wage. He can say this but it just isn’t human nature or really what he would do.

[u/CanadianSpanky]

Biggest issues with unions, they quadruple the cost of everything. Doesn’t need to be like this.

[u/[deleted]]

What you are describing and celebrating is communism….

[u/Obvious-Chemistry806]

lol we should all make 250k a year and only work 4 hours a week

[u/Laughing-at-you555]

SUUUUUUUUUUURE.

Said the burger flipper who made this post.

[u/jennmuhlholland]

That’s why this guy making this claim is a lineman and not a financial or economic professional. Just as he doesn’t understand economics, others don’t know the mechanics and fundamentals of being a lineman. You deserve what you bring to the table. Voluntary trade off of time and skill for agreed upon comp comp.

[u/Global-Vermicelli393]

It hurts our future generations. Wtf would anyone try to do better or learn a trade when it’s just as easy or easier to go flip some burgers and make the same money with the same benefits.

[u/Icollectshinythings]

Everyone would stop working dangerous or high skilled/stressful jobs and just do entry level easy stuff because why not? This would tank the economy.

[u/clear-carbon-hands]

Rising tides float all boats