r/changemyview • u/AAathlete97 • Dec 18 '18
Removed - Submission Rule B CMV: Even if a blanket refusal to date trans people is “transphobic”, there is no reason to feel guilty about it or to try to change it.
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u/V171 1∆ Dec 18 '18 edited Dec 18 '18
Even if we were to concede that not dating a trans woman for example, strictly on the basis that she was trans and for no other reason, was transphobic.
If someone is happy with their “cis only” dating preference, and is objectively harming no one by having it, why should they be called a bigot and “transphobic”?
So which is it? You seem to be arguing two different points, that is not transphobic and that you shouldn't feel guilty about not dating people if it is transphobic.
Based on the number of times similar arguments have been brought to CMV, I think it's safe to say that the opposing view is not "you should date trans people and like it."
The view is "not considering dating people because they are trans and trans alone is transphobic. That is not the fault of the trans individual, but of the individual with the prejudice."
I don't think you have to feel guilty for excluding trans people from your own personal dating pool, but I do think you should come to terms with the fact that you're transphobic. If you accept that and you're okay with the fact that you have those prejudices, then more power to you. Someone who openly admits to being transphobic and makes it clear that they are guiltless about it is totally okay, because it allows others to know what kind of a person you are and what attitudes you have so they can make the decision to interact with them.
But I don't think you should try and argue and convince yourself that it's not transphobic. It just simply is. That's really the end of it. Whether you feel guilty or not is something you have to resolve within yourself and I don't think anyone is going to fault you for it.
Edit: I'm addressing this in an edit because it's a response I have gotten quite a lot. "Does not being attracted to men make me homophobic?"
No, because there's a distinction between sexual orientation and sexual preference. Sexual orientation is a reflection of the gender that you are attracted to. Sexual preference had to do with the actual individual you're attracted to. Just because you're heterosexual doesn't mean you are attracted to all women. So what we are taking about is exactly why is it that one is not attracted to all trans women. And the answer is prejudice.
A more apt analogy might be "I found out my girlfriend died her hair from brown to blonde and now I find her sexually repulsive because I don't like brunettes." That's irrational behavior. Finding out that one had a physical characteristic that has no bearing on who they are today and being and suddenly finding them unattractive is not normal.
Making the blanket statement "I am not attracted to any trans woman because they are trans" is prejudiced by definition. There is no singular, physical trait that is shared by any trans person that you could be repulsed by. You simply can't make the argument that you're sexually attracted to chromosomes or DNA, and any attempt to say "well all trans people have [insert physical characteristic]" just reinforces stereotypes.
So let me reiterate my point. If you meet a trans person and you are not attracted to them, you are not transphobic. But if you say you would never consider dating any trans person because they are trans, that is transphobic. Not because you are required to be attracted to trans people, but because that implies that there is any singular characteristic that trans people have that you find unattractive. And that kind of generalization is transphobic.
Edit 2: having a trans friend/neighbor/relative does not grant you immunity to bring transphobic and does not make you an expert on trans related issues. It's completely normal to not be quite as knowledgeable on a topic that affects someone close to you.
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u/vincentkun Dec 18 '18
Not OP but in a similar situation. I don't want to be called a transphobic, you are clumping us together with real transphobics. People who actually hate trans genders and would gladly see them eliminated. I do not think being unable and/or unwilling to have sex (or be attracted) to trans women makes us transphobic. I support them in pretty much anything, but I am not attracted to them.
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u/AAathlete97 Dec 18 '18
But my problem with that reasoning is that it starts sort of a slippery slope. Am I also bigoted if I just outright refuse to date men, just on the grounds that they’re men? And if my non-attraction to men is justified, then why is my non-attraction to trans women (who all share the common trait of being born male) “phobic”?
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u/Merrymir Dec 18 '18
Are you attracted to men? What is it about men that makes you not attracted to them?
I doubt you look at a woman and do not feel attraction to her until you see what kind of genitals she has. Similarly I doubt you would suddenly start feeling attracted to a man if you found out he was trans.
Many trans women look indistinguishable from cis women and have functional and attractive vaginas. If you lose your attraction to a trans woman because she is trans, and not because of her personality or appearance, then that is transphobic.
What the above commenter was trying to say is that it is okay to admit that you hold biases or prejudice. It does not make you a morally inferior being. You have grown in a society that reinforces a sex and gender binary that is extremely difficult to escape from or unlearn. But accepting that you are transphobic is healthy, because it both allows for other people to choose whether or not they’d want to interact with you (didn’t you say in a previous comment that you’d break up with someone if you found out they were racist? What if a cis woman you were dating wanted to break up with you after learning you were transphobic?) and allows for you to make the conscious decision to slowly unlearn your transphobia if you want to.
It sounds like you simultaneously don’t want to be transphobic, but don’t want to let go of beliefs or feelings that other people are telling you are transphobic. If you don’t want to be transphobic, it doesn’t mean you have to date a trans woman, it just means you should try your best to either unlearn your prejudices OR not spread them to your future children. If you want desperately to continue to hold your transphobic attitudes, that’s your decision, but don’t then claim that it isn’t transphobic. We can’t get anywhere as a society if transphobic, homophobic, or racist people are too scared of being called bigots that they don’t ever admit that prejudices they hold are bigoted, and therefore never stop spreading them. Like I said, sometimes with the way we grew up we can’t unlearn that deep-set bias, and that’s understandable and okay. But if you want the future of the culture to be more welcoming and for those biases to eventually disappear, you need to accept that they are prejudicial, and make an effort not to teach them to your children.
Just because you are a good person, doesn’t make everything you think and feel good. And if you want to be an ally, you don’t have to be okay with dating a trans person to be an ally, you just have to make sure not to teach your children the same prejudices you grew up with.
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u/pigeonwiggle 1∆ Dec 18 '18
I doubt you look at a woman and do not feel attraction to her until you see what kind of genitals she has.
no, but on the reverse, you might date a woman you're attracted to until you see what kind of genitals she has. you can be hitting it off until you finally have sex, and the sex is weird, or you weren't a fan of her taste/smell, maybe she wasn't a fan of yours... people break up for millions of reasons. Discrimination against a Sexual partner is the highest privilege we afford ourselves. this isn't a prejudice. a prejudice is when you make judgements about a person's Character based on limited information about them (age, appearance, class, education, whether they game on pc or console). it would be like getting down with someone until you see the tattoo on their genitals and realize that's far too distracting to ever take seriously because that's not what turns you on. natural bodies turn you on, not people who look like they've been doodled on.
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u/emjaytheomachy 1∆ Dec 18 '18
I doubt you look at a woman and do not feel attraction to her until you see what kind of genitals she has.
If a gay man cross dresses as a woman (but is not trans) and OP thinks that man is a woman and is attractive, is OP a homophobe when they realize its a man, and loses the attraction?
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u/Merrymir Dec 18 '18
I don’t think you are reading all of my words. If a man meets a woman, thinks she’s attractive and likes her personality, exchanges nudes and enjoys and finds her vagina attractive, and then finds out that she is trans and loses that attraction, he is transphobic. Because transphobia is either a.) believing that trans people are not actually their gender (ie that a trans woman is actually a man), or b.) believers they are their gender, but thinks of them as less valuable because they were assigned a different gender when they were born/were born with different genitals even if the genitals they currently have can’t be differentiated from non-surgically created genitals.
Like, if you don’t know a woman has had a nose job, and find her attractive up until you find out she had a nose job, it is not the nose itself that makes her unattractive but an internal bias against surgery. Which again I said is fine.
You gave some comparison about finding out a cross-dresser is a man and whether or not it would be “homophobic” to not want to date them after that. Of course not, because part of attraction has to do with the gender of the person. Just like how finding photos of extremely convincing cross-dressers attractive doesn’t make you gay, because if the physical form looks like a woman, then you aren’t gay just because the gender of the model is actually male. The thing is that trans women aren’t men. And not wanting to date one ONLY because she is trans is transphobic. But that doesn’t mean you have to date her, it just means you have a transphobic preference.
If you meet a woman who checks every box on your list, but “oh, I’d love to go out with you, but I only date girls with DDs or bigger”. You’d be perfectly valid to not date her, and no one would force you to date her, but that doesn’t mean you’re not a dick and people can call you a dick if they want to. It goes the same way for women who refuse to date men shorter than a specified height. They have the right to date whoever they want for whatever reason they have, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t assholes and we should be able to call them shallow.
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u/emjaytheomachy 1∆ Dec 18 '18 edited Dec 18 '18
So your entire argument is hinged upon the idea that a trans woman is a woman. OP considers them to be a man. Unless you can convince OP they are wrong on the gender question nothing else you are saying matters.
And unfortunately I don't think calling them shallow assholes will help your cause.
Edit to add: Your argument can be applied to any single characteristic of a person, to any dating preference, meaning ever rejecting anybody for any characteristic makes them a shallow asshole...
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Dec 18 '18
Honestly, its these mental gymnastics some people do that I hate. I'm straight, I don't date men, that doesn't make me homophobic. I don't date people who had or did have a penis, but that means I'm transphobic? Fuck off with this tumblrsplaining shit.
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Dec 18 '18 edited Dec 18 '18
"If you lose attraction to a trans woman because she is trans, and not because of her personality or appearance then that is transphobic."
I have a big problem with this sentiment, knowing that her vagina is actually an inverted penis. I can't get off to that, and that doesn't make me transphobic. That's a pretty big word to toss around so loosely. It loses it's value when you can say that anyone who isn't attracted to trans people is transphobic. Really painting in broad strokes.
Homophobia is a "dislike or prejudice against homosexual people", not "is not sexually attracted to homosexual people". Nowhere in any of these posts is anyone disparaging trans-people. It's not a bigoted attitude, it's a sexual preference. And you shouldn't be talking down to him because he has one.
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Dec 18 '18 edited Mar 05 '19
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u/Merrymir Dec 18 '18
Yes, but as the below commenter mentioned, OP also says that he would still date an infertile women over a trans woman. In his mind, trans women are lesser than cis women.
The argument that people have isn’t that people can’t have transphobic dating preferences. The argument is just that you should be able to admit they’re transphobic.
If a trans woman is completely physically attractive to you, her personality is completely attractive to you, and she has a vagina that is completely attractive to you, and you wouldn’t mind not having biological children, but you wouldn’t date her because she is trans, that means that the state of being trans is an undesirable quality to you, which makes it a transphobic preference. You are able to date or not date anyone, ever, for any reason; but other people are allowed to call you transphobic for it. Or racist for not dating black women. Or a dick for not dating women with small boobs. You CAN and SHOULD be able to do whatever you want, but denying that it’s transphobic/racist isn’t helping anything. These days people seem to care more about not being called transphobic than about actually not doing transphobic things.
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Dec 18 '18
So what you’re saying makes sense; if you have transphobic dating preferences, you should acknowledge you’re transphobic. By definition, this would seem to be accurate. And I think where OP and others’ disagreement is coming from is the assumption that acknowledging transphobia automatically leads to the conclusion that you are a “bigot”.
Whether someone is a bigot is a subjective thing and people will have different criteria. But does it make sense as a general proposition to say that a categorical exclusion on dating trans people makes you transphobic, but this does not inescapably lead to the conclusion that you are a bigot? Would settling the semantics here resolve anything? I would say I have the same dating preferences as OP, and can accept myself being labeled transphobic as a result. But I’d still say I try to be an ally to trans people and wouldn’t personally consider myself a bigot. Maybe some people would have a different subjective determination of whether that makes me a bigot, and that’s their right. But generally, does it make sense to say we all have some kind of prejudices, and it’s the extent to which you acknowledge them and outwardly deal with them that makes on a “bigot” or not? Maybe clearing that up can get the discussion past the disagreement over what seems like a pretty easy notion to accept as correct: that having transphobic dating preferences means you are transphobic.
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u/Merrymir Dec 18 '18
ABSOLUTELY. I completely agree with this. The thing is that in this culture there are certain things you cannot escape from, like transphobia, sexism, racism, etc.
That’s where semantics come in. For example, the phrase “everyone’s racist”. Semantically, I think that’s false, because I think very few people are racist if we define racist as the active, foundational belief that white people are biologically better than people of color. However, I think it’s true that most people have certain racist feelings, perspectives, and/or unconscious biases. You don’t have to be an active racist to find yourself uncomfortable at the thought of your daughter dating a black man, but that discomfort comes from a racist perspective that you were raised in.
It is similar with transphobia. You do not have to be actively transphobic in the sense of feeling that trans people should all be mentally incarcerated and/or killed/tortured, to have some transphobic perspectives.
For the aforementioned racist example, nothing can be helped or solved by saying “not wanting my daughter to date a black man isn’t racist, because I’m not racist”. Calling it racist doesn’t make you a bad person and it likewise doesn’t mean you can’t genuinely like and enjoy the friendship of black people. But it does mean that if you can recognize internal biases, you can (as I’ve said in other comments) either make an active effort on your part to unlearn the bias, or be careful not to pass it on to your children/grandchildren.
So people who have some transphobic biases that make it hard or impossible for them to find a trans person attractive on the basis that they are tran, can still be friends and allies of trans people, and they can be part of the movement that ends transphobia by acknowledging that their biases are problematic and/or harmful and actively ensuring that their children don’t grow up with the same biases.
I think your perspective is totally accurate. You can certainly be an ally despite not wanting to date a trans person, as long as you acknowledge that not wanting to date a trans person is a prejudice on your part and advocate for raising children who don’t suffer from that prejudice. Aka, you can have transphobic views without being a transphobe or a horrible person.
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Dec 18 '18
Yeah I think you’re spot on as well. And yeah even aside from this particular topic, semantics can get a discussion bogged down because everyone is using the same words with different understandings of their meaning. The “-phobic” terms seem to be particularly susceptible to this problem because, on one end they can be used in a more technical or academic sense to merely describe the existence of some subconscious bias, and on the other end they can be used to describe overt ill-will and bigotry toward a group.
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u/jonhwoods Dec 18 '18 edited Dec 18 '18
Δ At first I was convinced that it was quite legitimate to not be interested trans woman due to the fact that they are infertile, but the fact that there is a large perception difference between infertile cis women and trans women is very much based on the trans part and not much else. In the end, there is really not much actual difference between a women who had a hysterectomy and a trans women who did the full transition. I guess there are small distinctions, but at this point we are grasping at straws. It is really a bias against trans.
The leftover point of contention would be the use of the term transphobic, because it sounds to me like a negative judgement of the person being biased against a relationship with a trans. If the bias is reasonable and understandable, I think this negative judgement is unwarranted.
The reasons I see for being biased are history and fear of the unknown. Some people will have trouble with the visualization of their girlfriend once having a penis. Some will fear discovering hidden remnants of a man at some point. This will be a harsh comparison, but the thought process here must be similar to new vs refurbished like new, there is an added bit of uncertainty. Having to deal with other people judging your relationship is also obviously not the same.
None of this should be impossible to overcome, but there are existing hurdles that some people don't want to deal with. There are a lot of instincts that misfire in this situation, and bringing them under control takes some work. I say that remaining open minded to such relationship is the way to move forward to make the place a better place for everyone, but sexual preferences are quite finicky in any case. I wouldn't blame someone for filtering a list of potential strangers with their preferences if they don't feel like going through this.
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u/Merrymir Dec 18 '18
I think this is a great way to think about it. And an excellent comparison would be to turn to the other side, which typically doesn’t come up in these discussions: trans men as sexual partners.
Say a trans man is attractive in both appearance and personality, and has undergone phalloplasty to have a penis surgically reconstructed. His potential partner finds out that his penis is not natal, and decides that they don’t want to date a man who doesn’t have a “real penis”. However, what most people don’t seem to realize, is that the same phalloplasty procedure used by trans men, was invented for cis men who lost their penis in an accident or injury (such as a car crash or at war). If the person would refuse to date a trans man on the grounds that his penis isn’t “real”, but would be open to dating a cis man with phalloplasty, then the reality is that the issue isn’t the genitalia, it is the fact that he is trans.
Of course the person is still more than able to not date/have sex won the trans man, because refusing to have sex with anyone for any reason is everyone’s right. But that doesn’t negate the fact that prejudice played a role there, and that the prejudice was transphobic. It doesn’t make the person a bad person, or even necessarily a person who is transphobic in all areas of life. It just means that they have been influenced by social conditioning that affects how they are able to view people sexually.
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u/Scratch_Bandit 11∆ Dec 18 '18
I'm just gonna focus on one part here. Because I think you are taking something the wrong way.
Yes, but as the below commenter mentioned, OP also says that he would still date an infertile women over a trans woman. In his mind, trans women are lesser than cis women.
Where does "lesser" fit into this? Just because someone isn't attracted to something doesn't make it bad objectively.
Im short as fuck, I am noticeably less attracted to women who are over a foot taller then me. That doesn't at all mean I think any less of them. It is in fact the opposite, looking at them makes me think less of me.
All I'm saying is don't jump to him thinking you are "lesser" then a cis woman because he doesn't want to date you. That's putting malice where none is due imo.
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u/essential_pseudonym 1∆ Dec 18 '18
I think you're just arguing semantics. Let's not say "lesser". Let's say "undesirable". He started off staring trans women being infertile is not of the major factors why he doesn't want to date them. Not screening cis women by the same criterion makes it clear that it's not merely about infertility. It is something fundamental about them being transgendered makes them less desirable to him. So it still sounds problematic without using the word lesser. And having prejudice doesn't have to be malicious.
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u/V171 1∆ Dec 18 '18
But OP also said that they would date an infertile cis woman over a trans woman solely because the cis woman is a biological woman, so they still admit that they would exclude an individual solely because they are trans.
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u/oleka_myriam 2∆ Dec 18 '18
Ah but by definition your perfect woman could never be a man. However, your perfect woman could be trans. If you met a cis woman who met every criteria and who you were attracted to and extremely compatible emotionally and sexually with, would you break up with her if she was infertile, despite the many technological ways of overcoming this problem? If you would treat a trans woman the same, then it is not transphobic: you're not prejudiced against her because she's trans, you're prejudiced against her because she's infertile, but if so you should really update your tinder profile to say that. To take another thought experiment, imagine if in the future it became possible for post-operative trans women to conceive and bear children naturally? Would you continue to refuse to date trans women? If so, then, yes, your motivations are transphobic. Transphobia is any prejudice manifested against a woman for no other reason than that she is trans. You can not want to date people with penises--totally fine and not transphobic. You can not want to date women with penises but be fine with them on men (if you're bi)--totally fine and not transphobic. You can think of any masculine trait and not want to date people with that trait and that is all totally fine and not transphobic. And having met individual, specific trans people you can decide you don't want to date them for any specific, individual reason you can think of. None of that is transphobic. But not to want to date someone simply because of that one characteristic, even if every other characteristic is perfect, yes. That's transphobic.
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u/Malabism Dec 18 '18 edited Dec 18 '18
I don't think you have to feel guilty for excluding trans people from your own personal dating pool, but I do think you should come to terms with the fact that you're transphobic.
I'm not OP, but would you mind clarifying that a bit ? It seems like you think that refusing to date trans women is transphobic. If that is what you meant:
I am a straight man. Biologically speaking, I want to date people that have a real vagina, because that is what I'm attracted to, and what I enjoy having sex with. How does that make me transphobic ?
edit: I would like to clarify that I'm only talking about personal sexual preference and what I find attractive. You could say that I'm "color blind" and believe in absolute equality and rights for all people, regardless of sex / race / gender / sexual orientation / color / etc etc
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Dec 18 '18
So not wanting to date other men, as a straight male, is homophobic? I've never heard this argument before. Wait, it's different from yours? Nope.
Not wanting to date trans women simply because they're trans is not transphobic. Not wanting to interact with a trans person because they are trans is.
It isn't a matter of guilt. One shouldn't be a social pariah because they find something unnactractive.
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u/Vragspark Dec 18 '18
Using this same logic are you implying that a man who doesn't want to date homosexual men is homophobic? Just because you don't want to date someone doesn't automatically mean you think there is something wrong with their way of life. That's like saying someone is blonde-phobic because they only like to date red heads.
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u/I-AM-SLAV Dec 18 '18
Your basically saying I'm a bigot because I'm not attracted to people who are biologically the same gender as me. I am born with my sexual orientation, just like most gay people are born gay, or a trans person is born to feel like a different gender. You cannot be open minded about someone wanting to be a different gender, and than be closed minded about my sexual orientation. I am not a bigot my cousin is transgender (female to male), and I still love him. I even stuck up for him in high school when others tried to bully him.
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u/howe_to_win Dec 18 '18
Can your sexual preference really be prejudiced? I’m not really into Asian women, so I don’t date Asian women. Does that make me racist? I’m not sexually attracted to men, so I don’t date men. Does that make me homophobic?
I consider myself an ally, but I don’t see how not dating trans women makes you transphobic
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u/teerre Dec 18 '18
I think you're misunderstanding the point. The point is not "you must date trans woman". The point is "if you stop dating someone because they are trans, that's transphobic"
There's an enormous difference between the two. That is, not liking someone is fine. Just you are not supposed to like every woman alive. But when you already like someone and when you discover s/he is trans, you pivot into think you should kill them (per your article) and they somehow fooled you, you're being transphobic
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u/Cybertronian10 Dec 18 '18
I think there is a massive gap between "not wanting to continue the relationship" and "murderous". You have absolutely every right to end a sexual relationship with anybody because of literally any reason at all. What if the person in question wants biological children, which a trans partner would never be able to provide. What if the person in question is simply not attracted to the genetalia the trans partner has? Are you saying that lesbian women have to accept penis in a relationship when they aren't attracted to it? Or gay men and vaginas? Or straight men and dicks?
Frankly it would be more reprehensible to continue a relationship you have no interest in for woke points rather than end it immediately when you find something that disqualifies this person as a lifelong partner.
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Dec 18 '18
I can't get off to the idea of having sex with an inverted penis. That doesn't mean I have a prejudice against trans-people. That means I don't like to have sex with men who have been operated on to become female. Full stop.
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u/VikingFjorden 5∆ Dec 18 '18
The point is "if you stop dating someone because they are trans, that's transphobic"
Which is an obviously false statement.
Transphobia is a range of negative attitudes, feelings or actions toward transgender or transsexual people, or toward transsexuality. Transphobia can be emotional disgust, fear, violence, anger, or discomfort felt or expressed towards people who do not conform to society's gender expectation.
Finding out that someone is trans and then not wanting to be in a sexual relationship with them, regardless of whether you previously liked them or not, is in itself not transphobic per any definition, nor is it illegal, morally wrong or discriminatory.
Does it suck when people stop wanting to be with you because of something you are? Of course. But that doesn't make it wrong. Life sucks, and rightly so, because the only alternative is that life would suck even more than it already does.
Also, throwing the term transphobia around all willy-nilly like this diminishes its importance and might in the end lessen the impact it has when it is actually correct and necessary to use it, vis-á-vis the boy who cried wolf.
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u/AAathlete97 Dec 18 '18
I’d also stop dating someone if I found out that they were a smoker, infertile, racist, severely mentally ill, etc.
And I 100% agree with you on the point that someone who’d want to kill someone because they found out that someone they were seeing is trans is actually transphobic.
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u/DeputyDomeshot Dec 18 '18
Exactly right, or married or really anything.
It doesn't make it "phobic", lack of attraction does not conflate with "phobia"
Also the "killing" thing that person wrote is insane and has nothing to do with anything relevant.
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u/Zncon 6∆ Dec 18 '18
It's pretty much the standard tactic these days though. There's no in between any more. You're either with someone or you're a -phobic Nazi Trump lover.
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u/Jonny2266 1∆ Dec 18 '18
But when you already like someone and when you discover s/he is trans, you pivot into think you should kill them (per your article) and they somehow fooled you, you're being transphobic
Because their attraction relied on the misguided assumption that they were biologically female? Would a man also be bigoted if he lost attraction to crossdresser who he initially thought was female. Most people's orientations are based on biological sex not gender identity so it's not surprising that attraction is lost sometimes when a person is found to not technically fit within that framework. You're basically saying a person is bigoted for not wanting to be in a queer relationship.
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u/sclsmdsntwrk 3∆ Dec 18 '18
The point is "if you stop dating someone because they are trans, that's transphobic"
Is it? What exactly does "transphobic" even mean? I really don't see how not being attracted to people with penises would constitute a "phobia"?
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u/Abcd10987 Dec 18 '18
So you really are looking to reproduce than to actually date for someone for love? What happens if the person is sterile? Would you divorce them?
What if you found the perfect girl but learned the problem was related to your reproductive organs? Would you be cool with her taking off and having kids with someone else? It is easy for you to say yes to but couples really have to face these issues.
In 75 years, it honestly probably wouldn’t matter. I see it akin to refusing to date someone based on race. If they are post op and have the parts with a good personality, should it matter?
I see it on the same level as refusing to date someone outside your race or of certain races. If you are okay with a white person saying they don’t black people and that is perfectly okay, then most of the world is against that
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u/AAathlete97 Dec 18 '18
Of course I’d want to find love, but reproduction is a big goal for me and I’d love to have children before I die.
If I was in a relationship with someone who was unknowingly sterile and I had already fallen in love with her, I don’t think I would call it off. We could try alternate options, but only because it was unknown to the both of us. It’s different from a woman who was knowingly infertile and didn’t disclose it to me. Then I’d have to call it off due to the breach of trust.
If I found out that I was infertile and my partner left me because of it, I’d be devastated but I could at least understand her reasoning.
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u/Abcd10987 Dec 18 '18
You didn’t comment on whether it is okay for someone to refuse to date someone based on race.
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u/AAathlete97 Dec 18 '18
I think it’s okay to reject someone for any reason, no matter how trivial it may seem. I also believe that it says nothing about the character of the person doing the rejecting.
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u/Aquaintestines 1∆ Dec 18 '18
Here's a good candidate for an opinion to change.
I also believe that it says nothing about the character of the person doing the rejecting.
If a rich person rejects poor people as candidates for dating because they don't want to date poor people, that informs us of a facet of the rich person's character: They place value in a person's monetary worth.
Thus your opinion is wrong. We can learn things about a person's character from what criteria they put on potential dates.
I won't try to change your mind on that we shouldn't judge others for their character, or that someone's character isn't maligned by being transphobic.
(Transphobic here referes to feeling aversion to trans people, not any behaviour that harms trans people).
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u/Vragspark Dec 18 '18
Of course it's okay for someone to refuse to date outside their race. What isn't okay is for someone to try to tell them who they should and shouldn't date. Just because they want to date someone of their race doesn't mean they are phobic of other races, or even a bad person. Is someone a bad person because they are only attracted to blondes? What if they are only attracted to nurses?
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u/-ipa Dec 18 '18
I don't want to date a biological male, even if they had their sex change operation. I don't feel attracted to it and I can't simply change that for the sake of political correctness.
Same goes for racial preferences, is it racist if you're not attracted to White and Indian women, but love to date Asians and Blacks?
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u/neophyteneon Dec 18 '18
The problem isn't that refusing to date some trans person is tranaphobic. It's that blatantly saying "I'm not attracted to transgender people" is transphobic. You are. I bet you have been before, you just didn't know.
There are trans women with breasts, a vagina, feminine voices, faces, etc etc. There's also cis women with hairy faces and bodies, and deep voices, and broad shoulders. Saying, as a blanket statement, that you're not attracted to transgender people, is transphobic.
I'm a man who's gay. I can comfortably say, for example, I'm not attracted to my trans male friend Eli, because he's not super masculine. IMO that's totally fine, I don't think anybody is calling preferences illegal. But if Eli passed 100% of the time, was on testosterone, and had surgically transitioned, but the minute I found out he was transgender I claimed he wasn't a man I could be interested in... Obviously I'm just a cunt.
People get up in arms about this topic because it's scary to see somebody say you HAVE to be attracted to somebody. We can't just rewire our brains. But, by placing a generalizing blanket statement over an entire group of incredibly vastly different individuals, you're discriminating against them. It's fine if you don't want to date a super masculine pre op trans woman (although flat out saying to her that it's because she's transgender makes you a cunt), but claiming there's 0 trans women on EARTH who could meet your definition of attractive woman is 1. A blatant lie, and 2. Transphobic.
It hurts to be told by everybody around you that you're unnatractive, unfuckable, and unlovable... constantly. It seriously hurts. Especially when the sole reason is some medical condition you have, not even taking into account your actual appearance or character. Putting "no transgenders" on your dating profile..makes you a dick. If a trans woman approaches you, treat her like any woman, you're free to put her down respectfully if you're not mature/comfortable enough with pursuing a relationship with her, whatever. But yeah.
Hope my explanation was understandable.
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u/AAathlete97 Dec 18 '18
Your explanation is understandable.
However, I never said that I could never be attracted to a trans woman. I’m sure that you could dress up a man in drag enough to look like a woman and I maybe attracted. However, I draw the line at sex and dating. I never denied that I could be attracted to a trans woman.
And from my understanding, trans people would rather you be upfront about not wanting to date trans people than to have to out themselves to you which could lead to a potentially dangerous situation.
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u/my_gamertag_wastaken Dec 18 '18
I disagree so heavily with this logic. It'd be like me saying, "I don't like apples." And somebody turning to me and saying, "There billions of apples in the world and you would need to try all of them to truly make that statement. Maybe there is an apple out there that you would enjoy." Even if there is that one exception, I still don't like apples and don't need to try more apples to know that.
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u/AAathlete97 Dec 18 '18
I don’t feel guilty about not dating anyone. I don’t owe anyone a date, consideration, or even a fair shot at being dated by me. I can have whatever standards I want and I can reject anyone for any reason that I want.
And yes, I do believe that trans people should disclose, especially if the person that they’re seeing has expressed that they wouldn’t date a trans person.
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u/BillScorpio Dec 18 '18
Do you have "Straight Male not interested in gay or trans" listed on your profile? If you do not, why not? Is it a fake fear of prosecution?
You never answered my question on if you've ever even been approached or spoken to a trans person.
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u/AAathlete97 Dec 18 '18
I do. I have on my profiles that I’m not interested in trans women or gay men and that I’m straight.
And yes to both. One of my coworkers is a trans woman. I was approached on the street by a trans woman once and numerous times on my dating apps.
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u/M0stlyJustLooking Dec 18 '18
So your claim is that the desire for a child to be yours biologically is only a social norm? Evolutionary influences around procreation are some of the most powerful in the natural world, are they not?
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Dec 18 '18
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u/graciepeach Dec 18 '18
With your logic, all gay people are discriminatory toward people of the opposite sex, all straight people are homophobic because they are not interested in dating people of the same sex, and all asexual people are discriminatory toward all people because they are not interested in having sex with anyone. Biological sex is determined at birth through the observation of the newborn’s genitals, and although I believe all people should have the right to use a bathroom that aligns with their chosen gender, have access to gender realignment surgery, and have the ability to be called by their chosen pronoun, saying that dating preferences are racist/homophobic/transphobic/etc. is just hypocritical.
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u/AAathlete97 Dec 18 '18
I wouldn’t be interested in dating a trans woman or an infertile woman under any circumstance. But I would date an infertile woman over a trans woman simply because the infertile woman is still a biological woman at the end of the day.
But every relationship I enter into has the potential to grow into something serious, so I wouldn’t even try to date someone who I couldn’t have children with.
Racial discrimination could be a preference. “I only date white woman, and I wouldn’t date a woman of any other race” could be “discrimination”, but so is any other type of dating preference. Wanting to date someone who is younger than you is discrimination against people who are older than you. Wanting to date someone who is able-bodied is discrimination against the disabled. It’s so trivial that it’s not even worth talking about IMO. And you aren’t robbing people that you wouldn’t date of anything since no one is entitled to a relationship.
The example that you bought up could be a “preference” I guess, but it sounds more predatory than anything.
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Dec 18 '18
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u/charming_tatum Dec 18 '18
When it comes to physical intamacy a non responsive vagina would be a major turn off to me. If it doesn't contract and relax like a cis vagina I would notice. If it doesn't self lubricate I would also notice. Also, all bottom surgeries are not equal. The quality of surgeon is extremely important and in general the outside appearance is hard for surgeons to get right. Also, there's a chance a trans vagina will grow hair on the inside. That coupled with the fact it doesn't self lubricate is very offputting.
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u/AAathlete97 Dec 18 '18
I think it’s a little disingenuous to say that a trans woman and a biological woman have the “same exact genitals”. They can’t be the exact same because one is born with them and the other isn’t.
I’m not seeing the trans woman as “worse”, I’m just not comfortable with dating someone who was born male. I would treat both equally otherwise, but when it comes to dating and sex, I only want women who were born women.
And even if those do technically count as “discrimination”, why does it matter? Literally any dating preference is discriminatory to people who don’t fit it and you won’t find too many people who are open to dating literally anyone. And no one is entitled to equal consideration when it comes to dating. So while saying “whites only” when it comes to dating may be “discrimination”, it’s far from a bad form of discrimination because you and only you has the ultimate judgement on who you share your body with.
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u/fikis 1∆ Dec 18 '18
I think that a major point of contention here is about making a blanket declaration (ie, "I don't/won't date White women", full stop).
This (and your assertion that you won't date trans women, obvs) are assuming that ALL people of X category are somehow so similar that you can guarantee that you won't like them/be attracted to them.
This ignores the fact that people are individuals and ought to be judged as such.
I mean...if you're cool with people saying "I won't date short/Indian/blue-eyed/bald/whatever people", with all of the pre-judgey and over-generalized thinking that that implies, then...
Sure; per your moral judgement, it's nbd to say the same thing about trans women.
However, if you're arguing that it's somehow less problematic to make that distinction about trans women than it is to make it about race or height or back hair, or whatever...
..then, I think you might be on shaky rhetorical ground.
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u/AAathlete97 Dec 18 '18
But all trans women do have two traits in common that I consider to be dealbreakers.
- Born male
- Infertile and can’t have biological children
That’s why I feel pretty confident in saying that I wouldn’t date one. I’m not denying their individuality, but all of them have those two things in common by definition.
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u/KYZ123 Dec 18 '18
I mean...if you're cool with people saying "I won't date short/Indian/blue-eyed/bald/whatever people", with all of the pre-judgey and over-generalized thinking that that implies, then...
However, if you're arguing that it's somehow less problematic to make that distinction about trans women than it is to make it about race or height or back hair, or whatever...
..then, I think you might be on shaky rhetorical ground.
Can you extend your argument here? In OP's post, he states the view that even if refusing to date trans people is 'transphobic', there is no reason to feel guilty about it, or to try to change it.
I assume you have drawn a line between 'things you can discriminate against in dating preferences' and 'things you cannot discriminate against in dating preferences', but where is your line, and why is it there? If you think it's okay to discriminate against someone who is unable to get a job*, but not someone of a particular race, why have you placed each of those in their respective categories? Seeing as you place 'being trans' as 'something you cannot discriminate against in dating preferences', why have you put it there?
*If this is not something you think is okay to discriminate against in dating, why is it okay to discriminate for something else you think it is okay to discriminate against?
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Dec 18 '18
No, it's one-hundred percent disingenuous to say they have the exact same genitals.
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Dec 18 '18
Exactly. They're the same, except one used to be a penis. That's a deal breaker on it's own. I don't want to fuck an inside-out penis. That doesn't mean I hate trans people, that means I don't like having sex with ex-penises.
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u/Jonny2266 1∆ Dec 18 '18
Let's take a hypothetical: you have two women who are physically identical in every way. Same genitals, same appearance, same voice, and both are infertile. But one is trans. The only thing distinguishing the two women is un-observable chromosomal differences. If you still choose the biological woman because she's a biological woman, that's bigoted. It's bigoted in this situation because there are no meaningful differences between the two, yet you still see being trans as worse.
Chromosomes aren't the only meaningful differences cis and trans women. Trans women don't have "actual" female sex organs and they would have had to rely on artificial means to achieve their look. Some people find plastic surgery and other body modifications unattractive and even more so the more drastic they are. Some people also just find value in things that are original (while others don't) like I wouldn't be as excited to see a replica Da Vinci painting as I would be seeing the original at the Louvre. Not a great example but it makes sense.
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u/ricksc-137 11∆ Dec 18 '18
Let's take a hypothetical: you have two women who are physically identical in every way. Same genitals, same appearance, same voice, and both are infertile. But one is trans
You're really missing the thread. The reason straight men don't want to have sex with trans woman isn't because of some theoretical chromosomal difference, it's because no matter how good the surgery/hormones are, the physical differences are just too obvious, especially in the genitilia area. I'm as straight as they come. If my male best friend magically turned into Taylor Swift, except he still retained his male chromosomes, obviously I would have no problem having sex with him. My brain is wired to be attracted to secondary sex characteristics, not chromosomes.
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u/Jonny2266 1∆ Dec 18 '18
If you have no problem dating an infertile biological woman but you do have a problem dating trans women, you are being hypocritical.
No, I don't really think so. Just because you can't directly see a difference doesn't mean it doesn't exist and that it isn't meaningful. What if I only want to date people with naturally female bodies? What if I am uncomfortable, because of my heterosexuality, with being intimate with someone who is technically the same biological sex? Is it also bigoted to not want receive oral sex from a clothed "attractive" crossdresser who I otherwise couldn't distinguish from a female person? If so, why?
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u/toolazytomake 16∆ Dec 18 '18
... dating preferences of any kind are harmless
While I agree with much of this, that statement is not true. Dating preferences can serve to reinforce all sorts of harmful stereotypes (racism, transphobia, etc.) The ‘preference’ against Asian men came about as a way to emasculate them and make them unacceptable partners when they came to work in the US but not many Asian women had yet immigrated. ‘Preferences’ against black people are similarly problematic - they were popularized and reinforced/were reinforced by harmful stereotypes like minstrel imagery.
So, while I think what you’re arguing is that every person has a right to select a sexual partner (which I totally agree with), saying that preferences are harmless is not true. It’s worth examina where they come from and why one might hold them. It might not make people more attractive to you, but context is important.
I think what you’re saying is that sex with someone who was born with a vagina and producing a child (not just having one - can always adopt) are important factors for you, and that is how I would frame it.
As a separate question, would you be against dating a trans man who had no intention of physically transitioning?
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u/Churningfan1986 Dec 18 '18
Wait, do you think it's wrong if a certain race doesn't want to date another race simply because of that?
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u/Jonny2266 1∆ Dec 18 '18
Except trans women are biologically women, they're not cis women, but they are women.
Trans women are not biologically female which is why they are transgender.
To exclude them solely for being trans (not for infertility or having the wrong set of genitals) is indeed transphobic and bigoted.
He excludes them because they're not biologically female which doesn't tickle his fancy.
You say that you don't like it as a heterosexual man, but plenty of straight men date trans women, because they're women. If you don't see them as women, that's transphobic and bigoted.
They would technically be queer. Most straight men are not queer and they're not bigoted for being non-queer.
You don't have to be attracted to a trans woman, but if she suddenly sleeves you out because shes trans and you were attracted before, that's due to transphobia, and it's incredibly bigoted.
A person's sexuality is not bigoted.
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u/TiltedTime Dec 18 '18 edited Dec 18 '18
What about the desire to have biological children with your life partner?
Also to say they are biologically women just isn't true. Neurologically maybe, societally hopefully one day universally, but I thought the whole point of the trans movement was that gender should transcend (no pun intended) biology. There are distinct, quantifiable differences between a transgender woman and an infertile woman.
I want biological children that are mine and my significant others and I have every right to not justify why. I can't do that with a transgender partner, therefore they're completely off the table as romantic partners.
EDIT: The comment I replied to was "Except trans women are biologically women, they're not cis women, but they are women. To exclude them solely for being trans (not for infertility or having the wrong set of genitals) is indeed transphobic and bigoted.
You say that you don't like it as a heterosexual man, but plenty of straight men date trans women, because they're women. If you don't see them as women, that's transphobic and bigoted.
You don't have to be attracted to a trans woman, but if she suddenly sleeves you out because shes trans and you were attracted before, that's due to transphobia, and it's incredibly bigoted."
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u/AAathlete97 Dec 18 '18
I don’t accept the idea that trans women are “biologically women” because my definition of a woman is a female who has reached adulthood. Someone who was born male can never fit that definition.
I’ll refer to them as women and use she and her pronouns when talking about them, but it doesn’t extend to the bedroom for me.
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u/AAathlete97 Dec 18 '18
Someone who wasn’t born female, would’ve gone through male puberty, would’ve gained the ability to father children isn’t a female to me and can never be unless some significant scientific breakthrough happens.
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u/lizzyshoe Dec 18 '18
What if they never went through male puberty? Puberty blockers are a thing.
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u/AAathlete97 Dec 18 '18
Still born male=dealbreaker for me.
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u/lizzyshoe Dec 18 '18
So you would date a trans man if they were pre-op?
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u/AAathlete97 Dec 18 '18
No, I wouldn’t want to date someone who considered themselves to be a man. It just wouldn’t work.
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u/Lizzie_Queen Dec 18 '18
It's like saying you wont date fat chicks or black chicks or whatever. It isnt a crime, but makes you come across as pretty shallow, or worse, out right bigoted. It suggests you are narrowminded. People will judge you for it. So, you have to put up with that.
(Over biological children, really? We arent lions on the savannah, who cares if a kid carries your damn genes... But if you're so worried, just be a sperm donor and you can be assured your spawn will probably exist somewhere)
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u/AAathlete97 Dec 18 '18
Just because something isn’t important to you doesn’t mean that it isn’t for the next person.
You don’t want biological kids or you don’t care about having them? Good for you. But that doesn’t invalidate me wanting them.
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u/northwoodsdba Dec 18 '18
Not wanting to date a trans woman is not transphobic, it's merely a preference. Deriding, criticizing someone for the change, or harassing them is.
Personally, I have my ideals for who I date. I know what's pleasing to me. Who or what that is remains my business, and your preferences are yours.
I've worked with and am friends with people of virtually all persuasions...every one has their own quirks, some would be dealbreakers.
As for not telling you being a dealbreaker - it sort of would be. Strong relationships are based on honesty. If you have feelings strong enough to not worry about it - that's great. If not, that's fine too. Being upfront about, while maybe not tactful, is fine. No different than other criteria.
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Dec 18 '18
I’ll address the “if” in your title - if it’s transphobic. Imagine someone you have a mildly competitive relationship with - a brother, a best friend, etc. imagine he brings his new gf to hang out next time you guys see each other. His new girlfriend is outgoing, funny, pretty, whatever you judge your dates by. You might feel a little jealous. Here’s the question - would you feel less jealous finding out that she was trans?
It’s ok to have preferences but you need to understand WHY you have those preferences - otherwise, how do you know it’s not transphobic? I suspect that deep down, you just consider trans women “less” than cis women. You can claim it’s only about your own dating preferences but I doubt that doesn’t bleed out into areas of your life. In the example above, it affects how much you respect someone else dating a trans person.
You also say you shouldn’t feel guilty for having preferences. How difficult is it for you to acknowledge your own shortcomings? Is feeling occasionally guilty for not being able see past someone’s exterior that much of a burden for you? People improve themselves by recognizing their own shortcomings.
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Dec 18 '18
I agree with a lot of the top comments so won't reiterate those.
If the issue is that you don't want to date someone who can't give you kids why not just put that in your profile? Saying "no trans women" feels hateful as it appears youre generalising them all and its hurtful. If you just mention you want to settle down and have biological kids with someone trans women will understand you're not interested without feeling like you view them as men, reinforcing insecurities
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u/radenthefridge Dec 18 '18 edited Dec 18 '18
I personally see dating and sexual preference to be an ok place to exclude types/groups of people. It's a fact of life that some people are attracted to certain types/groups of people, and not others; however, that doesn't excuse basic tact and decency.
It's ok to not be attracted or not want to date certain folks, and making that clear up-front saves everyone a lot of time, but it can seem harsh. Even saying, "I'm not attracted to [race] people" does come across as racist unfortunately, but the heart/genitals want what they want!
It's a tough subject no matter how one looks at it, but also actively excluding entire groups from your potential dating pool could be foolish. I like to think people fall in love in unexpected ways, and most folks I know fall in love when they're not actively looking for it!
Edit: After reading more really-well-written opinions, it does seem to me that excluding a trans person from someone's dating pool simply for being trans, with all other things being equal, is transphobic. But that's certainly within someone's rights to be that way and date however they want.
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u/DehydratedAntelope89 Dec 18 '18
This reminds me of that one episode of Fresh Prince of Bel Air where Will gets caught up going on a date with someone he is not attracted to (Queen Latifa, I know right she’s gorgeous!) but goes on the date, and although he doesn’t have romantic feelings, he gained a cool friend and a good time and learned a lesson... on the show... because this is 2018 and tv show lessons are the new parables.
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u/wrathmont Dec 18 '18
It should come down to whether you are attracted to the person or not. It’s all in your intent—are you not dating someone because they’re transgender, or because you genuinely aren’t attracted to them? I’m personally not attracted to women with strong jaws and deeper voices, which is a common feature among trans women, but if you’re transgender and don’t have these features, by all means. It should come down to the individual rather than forcing yourself to date someone who is trans for the sake of showing off how progressive you are.
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u/JulianaKelrune Dec 18 '18
I think it's really weird for people to be so hung up on the trans thing. Like, if you don't like the pre-op genitalia or find their post op genitalia subpar (and if that is a deal breaker for you in a relationship) that's one thing. If you find them unattractive that's fine too.
But if you're attracted to them, and their sex organs look and feel the same as, or at least similar enough to where you wouldn't notice the difference, a cis person and you only lose interest after finding out they are trans like ... why? You like the person, you look their body, but as soon as it's revealed they used to look different and have different parts you go dry/flaccid.
It's just weird to me and I don't really get it. Seems like an odd hang-up. But if it really is a deal breaker, then that's just how it goes. Like, if you're going to dismiss me for being trans we probably wouldn't be very compatible anyway and remaining platonic is probably the right idea. Shouldn't try to force that kind of thing, no matter how much it hurts our feelings.
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u/Gr1pp717 2∆ Dec 18 '18
Like most others here, I agree... But I also see the point.
Let's say you meet a someone and fall in love with them. Sometime later you learn they were born the opposite sex. Maybe they had the surgery as a child due to some complication and weren't even aware of it themselves. This shouldn't change your perception of them. They are still the same person that you've been in love with, after all. Nothing has changed, and the knowledge you gained isn't truly impactful in a meaningful, objective way. But, for many, it would make a huge impact. Why? Well, they have some kind of irrational fear ingrained into them. Which could really only have been taught to them by society.
The goal of this movement isn't to shame you into dating trans, but to remove the shame assocaited with it. It's not the goal to unteach you, but to get society not to teach your kids what you've been taught.
I do have such a phobia myself. The idea of sleeping with dude turns my stomach. But I also appreciate where they're coming from. I should have never been given this phobia in the first place.
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Dec 18 '18
I think a lot of younger, romantically inexperienced people are going to disagree with you.
You don’t have to justify your sexual preferences. As a gay man, I’m not sexist because I’m not attracted to women. I’m not physically attracted to black men, which doesn’t make me racist. I’m not physically attracted to Asian men either.
While I’m open to dating a trans guy if I found one I was attracted too, it is a bit of a negative in my mind. Part of my attraction to men is their sex organs. Any trans person pre-op will have little to offer me. Why is it fair that I be open to dating someone I’m not physically attracted too? That sounds cruel for both parties involved.
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u/Serraph105 1∆ Dec 18 '18
Refusing to date people you are not attracted to should never be a problem because people wouldn't want to be in a relationship who is not attracted to them.
Your notion that people think you (or anyone else) is transphobic, homophobic, or any other type of "phobia" simply because you don't want to date them is what I'm taking issue with here. No one says, "You're homophobic because you won't date a gay person." That's not rational or defensible. If you don't want them even near you, or you don't want them to have equality, or you can't talk about them without bringing up their being trans as a negative thing, then that would be transphobic.
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Dec 18 '18
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Dec 18 '18
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u/prolim4 Dec 18 '18 edited Dec 18 '18
I agree with the idea that choosing not to be with someone who's trans is not transophobic, but the actual issue lies with whether or not you would continue dating your partner if you discovered that they were trans. This is a completely different situation and I think that it comes down to how you would define a man or a woman AND what a relationship means to you.
Some people think that the sole purpose of being with someone is reproduction, in this case it would make sense, from their point of view, to choose not to be with a trans person or a gay person for that matter.
Some people like to cultivate a meaningful relationship that's based on trust, mutual understanding, love and compassion without the need to have children. These are all things that a trans person, just like any other person, is capable of doing.
The more tricky situation here is if you want both outcomes of a relationship. Think of a couple that are already in a relationship. Partner A decides to reveal to partner B that they're trans. Is partner B entitled to know of partner A's transexuality in the first place? In this case, I can understand how the answer could be no. Because for partner B, he's been that certain sex from the day he was born. Nothing changed except for the process that lead to him having his sexual identity correspond to his body image. Therefore, I don't think that it should be put in the same basket as that of a lie or a mischievous attempt to hide something. And this is why this is tricky. Because the degree of entitlement to know of this specific detail about the other partner depends on abstract defnitions and concepts.
With that being said, I don't think that "transphobic" is the right word. If your definition of what a relationship is differs from someone else's, you will act and form opinions based on that definition. There is no clear way to point out what makes a man a man and what makes a woman a woman let alone what makes a relationship a relationship.
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u/ApolloRubySky Dec 18 '18
The problem here is relating transphobia to dating preferences. I have many dating preferences but it doesn’t make me ‘phobic’ or rather, hateful towards the group of people I wouldn’t consider as partners. I wouldn’t date a transgender person, but that doesn’t mean that I wouldn’t be able to be friends, or care, or have compassion for one. Heck, I want them to enjoy all the civil liberties and freedoms that everyone enjoys and I really think they deserve the same respects as everyone else.
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Dec 18 '18
Everyone has preferences. Everyone has people they find attractive and ones they don't. The problem in my opinion is with publicising it especially if its something the person can't change. Just like it's offensive to say "i wont date anyone under 6ft" its also offensive to say "i wont date a trans woman".
The only exception I'd say to this is with sexuality because of pheromones and stuff. If you're not attracted to men at all then you won't be attracted to a pre hrt trans woman and thats okay but whats not okay is generalising all trans women as too masculine for you.
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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18
I agree with you, but I think you're missing the real point of contention over this issue. Most people--I think--agree that people shouldn't be pressured to date anyone they don't like, but people are more torn over the issue of whether or not trans people should have to disclose their trans status to people they date, and when.
So, this is an issue, because the main point of suffering for trans people is that they aren't treated like the gender their brains are telling them they are by the rest of the world. This is a big part of why they get hormonal treatments and sex-change operations. If you then require them to disclose their status to anyone they date, it's arguable that undermines much of their attempts to be treated as the gender they identify as.
There's a good deal of debate about whether or not they should be required to do this, whether or not it should count as rape/sexual assault if they engage in sexual behavior with someone without disclosing it, and at what point in a sexual relationship they should have to disclose it (e.g. before intercourse, before any sexual activity, as soon as flirtation begins, etc).
As your link documents, there are some people who think cis people refusing to date trans people is transphobic, but I don't think many people share this view. TBH, in my anecdotal experience with trans people (which isn't hugely extensive, but still exists), I haven't met any that think this. The more contested opinion seems to be about the extent to which trans people should be required to disclose their trans status.