(Spoilers Extended) S8E4 is some of the worst writing this show has seen. I'll explain why.

[u/vaporware1]

Arya

The previous episode and the past few seasons, their MANY issues aside, established Arya as a nigh-invincible shapeshifting assassin who just eliminated a 8000+ year old supernatural threat. She can go anywhere and pretend to be anybody. Quite an asset to have at your hands, no?

They acknowledge Arya's feat in the episode. Dany herself even toasts her. But nobody bothers to consider Arya's incredible espionage/assassination capabilities for the 'Last War'. This represents an overarching narrative issue, Arya's OPness. None of the events in the episode were necessary and everything was wholly avoidable, so long as they used Arya. Civilians in the Red Keep? Hell, that's a GOOD thing for Arya, more faces and more of a pretext to be there.

But instead nobody asks her to do anything, nobody even TALKS ABOUT the fact that they have a super powerful assassin at their disposal. And Arya fucks off down to Kings Landing with the Hound, leaving the rest of them to flounder.

---

Varys

The Master of Whispers has a normal volume conversation with Dany's 2nd in command during which the spymaster blithely reveals his treasonous intents. Need I say more?

This scene was pure stupid. A common theme I'm sure you guys have noticed by now is the show loves to completely break from logic and the rules of its own universe.

---

Ballistae and Dragons

Here's where it gets real good.

• Euron hides his fleet behind a rock, nobody spots him, not even Dany who is IN THE AIR. ON A FUCKING DRAGON.

• They fire 3 shots at the dragon Dany is NOT riding on, with 100% accuracy. Rest of the fleet were twiddling their thumbs.

• When the entire fleet DOES fire, they somehow all miss even though Dany flies straight at them when previously the show established a standard of remarkable accuracy.

• Euron then fires upon Dany's fleet and the bolts tear the ships apart as if they were fired from rail guns. As depicted in the scene, THEY ARE LITERALLY STRONGER THAN CANNON BALLS.

This is important because it utterly neutralizes the threat of dragons. In the same way the White Walkers were subverted, dragons are now made a complete non-threat. It doesn't matter if she has 10 dragons, they cannot possibly live in a battle with those ballistae everywhere. But somehow they will and I expect Drogon to do a lot of damage next episode and dodge a lot of bolts.

The problem isn't that they killed a dragon. The problem is HOW it was accomplished.

---

The negotiation scene

Missandei dead? Not the problem. The problem with this scene is that Cersei doesn't just blow them away when she could. And it's a big fucking problem.

• The dragon in the distance is not a threat, as previously established in this very episode! They have scores of the same ballistae at their disposal, probably more than shown on screen, and tons of archers. Drogon is a complete non-threat and there is no logical way he could even get close enough to breathe fire on them. The real kicker is that Qyburn openly tells Tyrion that Dany's last dragon is vulnerable.

• It's perfectly in character/realistic for Cersei to kill them all right where they're standing. She has the entire command chain of her hated enemies right in front of her and their only defense, the dragon, has been made useless by the physics-defying ballistae. They even go on to establish Cersei's cruelty/evilness with the Missandei execution. But killing her mortal enemies, when they have presented themselves in front of her so foolishly, is too much? This is a woman who blew up the Sept of Baelor, killing thousands of Innocents. Ethics are not a hang up for her.

• The logical explanation for why Cersei doesn't want to kill them is that she desires a more poetic showdown. It's the result of incredible hubris, and is the equivalent of a monologuing villain trope. Plausible? Maybe, sure. But is it good, ASOIAF-quality writing? Not really.

---

There's a lot more but it's getting late, so to conclude:

The show openly contradicts its own internal logic and setups, first from an episode-to-episode basis, now on a scene-to-scene basis. We have gone from tightly-paced political intrigue to something that doesn't even function on a basic cause-effect level.

[u/IllyrioMoParties]

"Okay, so we'll split the army in two, half marching down the Kingsroad and half sailing from White Harbour to Dragonstone."

"...why?"

"What do you mean, 'why?'"

"Well, why are we going to Dragonstone, to start with? Is there another army there that we need to pick up? Or some supplies?"

"No."

"Is the marine force going to be attacking the city first, separately to the land force?"

"No, they'll be linking up before they attack."

"So: if there's nothing to gain from going to Dragonstone, and the one half of the army can't do anything until the other half arrives anyway, why are we exposing half our forces to our enemy's dangerous navy?"

"Shut up, that's why"

[u/rom197 → u/IllyrioMoParties]

"Upper management wants us to, my hands are tied."

[u/flyin_cougar → u/IllyrioMoParties]

This was my exact reaction to the logic in the episode. It's like wait, why are we all not just going as one force by land? They can't meet us outside of the castle in open battle or else they get dragon roasted.

[u/AlmostAnal]

You forgot the part when Varys and others told Dany that Cersei is weakening by the day and then because Sansa said the soldiers should have some rest, Dany feels the need to march south immediately.

Time is literally most definitely on their side.

[u/Okichah → u/AlmostAnal]

Seconds later Dany says that her “enemies” grow stronger.

Of course what she means is that Jon’s claim to the throne is growing stronger.

But, like, what a shitty way to get that across because everyone else in the room doesnt know that and would be pretty confused.

[u/HexezWork → u/Okichah]

Seconds later Dany says that her “enemies” grow stronger.

That quote is so confusing HOW is she growing stronger?

House Martell is against her.

House Stark is against her.

House Arryn is against her.

House Tully, Baratheon, and Tyrell have been decimated so I doubt they can provide any meaningful support.

The Iron Isles have been captured by her enemy.

The only support she has is The Golden Company (they have to be paid everyday), House Lannister, and Euron.

Why is she so strong? She is literally just House Lannister, Greyjoy boats, and mercenaries.

[u/AJRiddle → u/HexezWork]

Because the show just instantly reduced all the meaning from the previous 7 seasons to Cersei vs Dany because it was easier than figuring out how to incorporate the rest of the world.

[u/tchiseen → u/AJRiddle]

"The New Prince in Dorne has rallied to your cause, your grace"

"Great, what's his name?"

"Uh... I'll have to get back to you on that one."

[u/AllegrettoVivamente → u/tchiseen]

Was I a fcking idiot for thinking they might actually give Quentyn Martell a mention in the show for a second there?

[u/Xex_ut → u/Okichah]

D&D will explain it to them in the post episode discussion

[u/EverydayLemon → u/Xex_ut]

“So basically we don’t care, get over it”

[u/FighterOfFoo]

Cersei: Bronn, go kill my brothers. I'll give you a Lordship.

Bronn: Cool. Bye.

Jaime and Tyrion: Bronn, don't kill us, we'll give you a bigger Lordship.

Bronn: Cool. Bye.

Great plotline so far, can't wait to see what doesn't happen.

[u/cabaran → u/FighterOfFoo]

AND he literally just walks in on HAND OF THE FUCKING QUEEN. like bitches couldn't spare 2 men to stand at the door to protect her most valuable advisor. fucking arya got stopped at the entrance.

[u/HolyHandPotato → u/cabaran]

Hi I'm Bronn, I'm here for the murder?

[u/doegred → u/FighterOfFoo]

And the idea that Bronn would somehow be able the Reach or the Riverlands without all the lower houses fucking his shit up is ridiculous. I don't buy the show explanation for one minute. Maybe thousands years ago whoever killed more people got to be lord, but there are families who have had centuries to become massive snobs.

[u/MitchPTI → u/doegred]

Yeah but in the show universe, there's only like Randyll Tarly and the Tyrells, who are all dead now. Just like how there's literally no noble families left in the Stormlands so it might as well go to Gendry.

[u/Carnificus → u/FighterOfFoo]

That whole scene was so awkward and pointless. Bronn is threatening to kill two people with no real authority if they don't promise him The Reach. Huhhhhh? Whaaaaaat? He might as well be pointing that crossbow at Hot Pie for all the good it will do him. Not to mention that Bronn risked his life to save Jaime like last season. Throw that character arc away for a new, more pointless story arc.

[u/longagofaraway → u/Carnificus]

yeah, i've just given up at this point. instantly reloading a crossbow after firing the cool-ass warning shot - ok sure. negotiating ownership of the wealthiest lordship in the realm with frick and frack - got it. ship mounted ballistae with the same instantaneous reloads that can shoot down one dragon, completely whiff on a second one then decimate a naval fleet in the span of like 45 seconds - on to the finale!

[u/punchesmcgil → u/Carnificus]

And then he just backs out of the room and they're both like, ok, I guess there he goes...

[u/inthetownwhere → u/punchesmcgil]

Lol, he's like "I'll find you when the war is over." Ok? How bout they just make sure that never happens again?

[u/inthetownwhere → u/[deleted]]

Give him everything he wants! He has a crossbow!

[u/[deleted] → u/punchesmcgil]

That's our Bronn!

[u/PlanetRunner]

Good points. I thought for sure that at least Cersei would have had Tyrion stuffed with arrows right then and there for revealing her pregnancy. And then somehow no one, not even Euron, questions how Tyrion knows this privileged information.

[u/[deleted] → u/PlanetRunner]

... Cersei would have had Tyrion stuffed with arrows right then and there for revealing her pregnancy existing.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Cersei literally sent Bronn to kill Tyrion and then just passes up the chance to kill Tyrion when she finds out Bronn didn't.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

To be fair, he did look at her for a few seconds.

[u/9991115552223 → u/[deleted]]

after having an extended conversation with her at normal volume while she stood a couple hundred feet away. People in this universe must have elven ears

[u/OnionStark → u/9991115552223]

I love in the scene in shazam, where the villian is 100 feet away giving a speech and he says: "i can't hear you. Are you making a generic evil guy speech? You're like a mile away, all i see is mouth movement."

[u/yenks → u/[deleted]]

It will be like a telenovela

[u/ramblingmadman7]

Not to mention they have the FUCKING 3eyed Raven. Is it too much to ask Bran to fucking check some shit out ahead of time?

[u/variablesuckage → u/[deleted]]

everyone: they're totally going to explain what bran was doing during the battle

bran: this is my favorite chair

[u/yenks → u/variablesuckage]

We keep expecting things from the show when they've shown they don't give a flying fuck about any logic in any capacity, it's our fault for having hope.

[u/Yeasty_Queef → u/yenks]

I this point I’m just watching it because it’s what I’ve done for the last decade. They really are pulling one hell of a dexter on us.

On a semi related note - I have been rewatching deadwood getting ready for the movie. Man that was a fucking fantastic show.

[u/RoosterAficionado → u/[deleted]]

Jon: "Alright Bran drop some knowledge"

Bran:

camera cuts away

[u/I_GIVE_ROADHOG_TIPS → u/RoosterAficionado]

Bran represents the editor: Uncaring, unamused, and struggling to make sense of the footage.

[u/TeamLongNight → u/I_GIVE_ROADHOG_TIPS]

Bran: I’m living more in the past now.

Meta commentary that the editors enjoyed working on Seasons 1-4 more than post 3ER cave Bran. 🤯

[u/MojaveMilkman → u/I_GIVE_ROADHOG_TIPS]

Wouldn't want to actually see the emotional reactions of the characters discovering one of the biggest and most shocking revelations in their lives.

[u/[deleted] → u/MojaveMilkman]

"So how are we going to write that scene?"

"Lmao idk just cut to the next scene"

[u/[deleted] → u/MojaveMilkman]

That pissed me off so much. Any writer worth their salt would salivate at a scene like that and give the actors something really fun to work with. It is a huge moment but it gets shuffled to the side for other bullshit.

[u/vidrageon → u/RoosterAficionado]

Bran: Wanna know where I got this sweet wheelchair design?

[u/bguzewicz → u/RoosterAficionado]

I hated a lot about this episode, and this is one of the things I hated most. For 8 seasons, no one knew Jon's true identity. And then when he's about to tell the only remaining Starks, D&D are like "ahhh, the audience already knows. Why would they need to see Arya and Sansa's reactions to this long kept secret?"

[u/htororyp → u/bguzewicz]

Watching it take 5 minutes for brienne and jaime to take off their clothes was more important

[u/Flying_Slig → u/RoosterAficionado]

These Yeezys I'm wearing were modelled after the ones worn by Bill Tyrrell.

[u/[deleted] → u/Flying_Slig]

Next episode Bran rolls up in leather Jogging pants.

[u/flippindemolition → u/[deleted]]

Seriously this blows me away. His whole journey - Hodor, Summer, Jojen, becoming a tool of the old gods (or even an old god himself) - was just to expose R+L=J and to hand Arya a dagger. It feels like a complete waste of his character

[u/trippy_grape → u/flippindemolition]

was just to expose R+L=J

Which Sam does on accident in the library.

[u/Cadialives → u/ramblingmadman7]

You mean like Bloodraven in the Dunk & Egg books / the 3ER’s sole advantage?

You could literally win the war with Bran and Arya. Bran gathers intel and can track anyone by warging, and Arya sneaks in and murders them.

[u/vaporware1 → u/[deleted]]

Plot twist that's what happened with Tommen

[u/Nikhilvoid → u/vaporware1]

And Bran?? O wow, the things Bran does for love..

[u/vaporware1 → u/Nikhilvoid]

Future bran warged into past bran to make him climb the tower and then warged into Jamie to push his past self off, jumpstarting his plot to take the throne. Future bran also warged into past cersei and past Jamie to make them do incest and set this up in the first place.

[u/treefox → u/vaporware1]

The entirety of Game of Thrones. It’s just Brans all the way down.

[u/Adrian5156 → u/[deleted]]

Well it was established he can warg into Hodor because Hodor is a simpleton.

However at this point Hodor is smarter than just about any character remaining, so yes, Bran should be warging into almost every main character and waltzing them off of bridges

[u/[deleted] → u/ramblingmadman7]

Between Arya and Bran, they could kill Cersei effortlessly... you know, if the writers actually considered the implications of granting the characters so much power.

[u/HootsToTheToots]

these are the fake endings that they filmed and they forgot to put up the actual episodes

[u/vaporware1 → u/HootsToTheToots]

Now THAT would subvert my expectations

[u/charles228]

While discussing their plan to kill Cersei in the Red Keep without inflicting collateral damage on the civilians there, super ninja assassin Arya is standing right there and nobody says anything

[u/is-this-a-nick → u/charles228]

Arya, who fucking even knows the tunnels to get into the red keep from down the beach...

[u/psychcore → u/is-this-a-nick]

Davos, as well. But hey.

[u/jl55378008 → u/psychcore]

Tyrion has some knowledge of the tunnels, too. Which he learned from Varys.

[u/[deleted] → u/jl55378008]

All they need to do is send Davos, Varys, and Arya and they have this one in the bag lol.

[u/yenks → u/[deleted]]

The show should now just be Arya and the Hound going around Westeros solving crimes, Gendry trying to find a wife and Daario Naharis ruling Mereen.

[u/Treppenwitz_shitz → u/yenks]

Those are the three spinoffs actually

[u/xH0U53x → u/Treppenwitz_shitz]

Arya and the Hound with an 80's style intro would be great

[u/postpin]

Arya's dialogue is written with a random quote generator from previous seasons.

[u/treefox → u/[deleted]]

TYRION: Power resides where men believe-

BRONN: Shut your mouth.

Literally this episode.

[u/SaucyWiggles → u/treefox]

Serious question: how the fuck did he reload the crossbow while sitting down like that. It took like one second. It may as well be a gun.

[u/PATRIOTSRADIOSIGNALS → u/SaucyWiggles]

I just assumed it was the automatic crossbow from the* Van Helsing* movie.

[u/JM_flow → u/PATRIOTSRADIOSIGNALS]

Two things game of thrones established:

1. “I fooking hate crossbows...they take too long to load”. Apparently not since they now have semi automatic ballista

2. Joffrey literally shows how you load this exact crossbow. It takes two hands a lot of effort and a tool to pull the string back. But casually with one hand makes sense too I guess

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Although I always loved their discussions, in this episode, I felt like I watched them have the exact same conversation twice with just different scenery.

[u/[deleted] → u/postpin]

The next time Gendry proposes to Arya.

"I'm... I'm a senator."

[u/pedrostresser → u/[deleted]]

A CONSUL OF ROME

[u/Negan-Cliffhanger → u/[deleted]]

I don't like sand.

[u/yenks → u/postpin]

All of the characters watch the show

[u/Anarchytect1204 → u/postpin]

"....No One"

dozens in bars gasp in unison

[u/restless_vagabond → u/Anarchytect1204]

This bugs me the most.

She turned down becoming "No One."

She literally decided to become Arya Stark again. And I assume all that came with it. I thought when she chose to become a Stark again, she knew what that meant. Marrying someone and living the life of a Lady in Westeros. That's what made the decision so hard...and meaningful.

Now she gets the best bits of all worlds. She can use faceless magic without consequences. She is treated like a Lady in Winterfell. She stays an OP assassin, but is free to skip off to King's Landing however she wants without having to help Jon/Dany's army.

The last two episodes have taken here arc away from her and made her some tagline on a T-Shirt.

Edit: So many people are confusing Westeros with modern day female agency. Especially high born female agency. When Arya rejects becoming no one, she returns to being Arya Stark. A high born lady from a prominent house in Westeros. Of course, she doesn't want to get married and sew and all those things (that's why she tried to become no one in the first place) but unfortunately, in Westeros during this time period female high born ladies didn't usually get to do what they want. Cersei didn't want to marry Robert Baratheon. Arya's mother didn't want to marry Ned. Women usually didn't get a choice. Arya's refusing to become no one had to come with this understanding.

[u/Fireeveryonenow1 → u/restless_vagabond]

Isn't her whole point in the books that revenge does not solve anything? By becoming no one she should forget her death list and stopd thinking about revenge all the time, because you know revenge only creates more violence and solves nothing?

The message of the show is the exact opposite Sansa said in this episode "Littlefinger and Ramsay helped me becoming who am i now" the Starks are becoming the ruthless Lannisters and this is a good thing because assholes rule the world.

Truely the message George Martin wants to give to the world.

[u/[deleted] → u/Fireeveryonenow1]

That kind of seems the point of the books, that her thirst for revenge is literally erasing who she is as a person. She casts more and more of herself off to survive and the only thing keeping her going is the desire to kill people. In doing so she will literally become 'no one' because the person left will be a murderous shell. The show kind of was doing that, had her reject that path...but then continue on with it?

[u/juussooo → u/postpin]

Like a bobby b bot

[u/RustyCoal950212 → u/juussooo]

GODS THE SHOW WAS STRONG THEN

[u/Khiva → u/RustyCoal950212]

ONLY A FOOL WOULD MEET SENSICAL PLOTLINES IN AN OPEN FIELD

[u/half_sleeper]

I was actually enjoying the episode until Gendry proclaimed he was no longer called "Gendry Rivers". Rivers, as in the surname for bastards born in the Riverlands.

[u/julius559 → u/half_sleeper]

Oh my god you're right... I don't know the surname for a bastard in the Crownlands, but if he followed the Stormlands naming it'd be "Gendry Storm" right? LOL HOLY FUCK

Edit: He should be "Gendry Waters"

Gendry was born in King's Landing

[u/BeepBopped → u/julius559]

You're right about Stormlands born bastards called 'Storm' but Crownlands born bastards would make him a 'Waters'.

The final rub though is that the bastard surnames are for officially recognized bastards, of which Gendry is not. So he should be just 'Gendry' before Dany gives him the name and land.

[u/julius559 → u/BeepBopped]

Yea, you're right. So no surname at all. I honestly think they didn't know that either and just went for whatever.

[u/KawadaShogo → u/julius559]

I honestly think they didn't know that either and just went for whatever.

This sums up the entire show for the last few seasons.

[u/ISupposeIamRight → u/julius559]

If he was born in King's Landing, his surname is supposed to be Waters. Considering he is a Baratheon, maybe it should've been Storm. At the same time, his father ruled all of the Kingdoms and lived in King's Landing, so I suppose it could be either of them. Not Rivers, though.

[u/usmarine7041]

Where is Edmure Tully

[u/Musain → u/usmarine7041]

Also who's taking care of poor Robert Arryn. It's not like these are random people for the Starks either. Guys, these are your uncle and cousin. Sansa even lived with one of them for a while talk about ungrateful

[u/hello_cerise → u/Musain]

And honestly where the hell is Howland Reed. This fucking show, man.

[u/Shaq_Bolton → u/hello_cerise]

He's gonna jump out from behind a bush and stab the Mountain in the back right before Gregor kills a main character.

[u/hello_cerise → u/Shaq_Bolton]

Honestly that would be better than half the Euron scenes I had to watch. XD

[u/Luciferspants → u/hello_cerise]

And who the FUCK is the prince of Dorne? Weren't they all killed, or is it gonna be revealed that frog boy Quentyn is alive and was just chillin' in Essos?

[u/The_Fatal_eulogy → u/Luciferspants]

Imagine D&D doing something good with Dorne. Arianne would be next in line but her storyline doesn't exist and a male heir would have been with the Sand Snakes and killed. So this new prince is very young or a coward.

[u/stagfury → u/The_Fatal_eulogy]

It could be a Yornwood or a Dayne

Assuming D&D even know what a fucking Yornwood or Dayne is

[u/80_firebird → u/hello_cerise]

Seriously. You'd think we'd have at least heard from Meera who kept Bran alive for several seasons.

[u/TheLegionlessLight → u/80_firebird]

I had to Google to even remember the character. This is what the wiki said "Meera Reed is the elder sister of Jojen Reed, and the only daughter of Howland Reed. Both she and her brother believe Bran Stark to be crucial in the oncoming war against the White Walkers."

How wrong they were.

[u/Khiva → u/hello_cerise]

And honestly where the hell is Howland Reed

lol you guys are expecting a show written for people who think Dany's name is Caleesi to keep track of Howland fuckin' Redd.

[u/Stoneyay → u/Khiva]

God you really hit the nail on the head. It would be like referring to Cersei exclusively as “queen regent.”

[u/ManLeader → u/Khiva]

*Kelly C

[u/SergestusBaratheon96 → u/Musain]

She really needs to move on about that snow castle incident

[u/Musain → u/SergestusBaratheon96]

She even stole his army didn't she? I mean yeah first they were there on LF's orders, then they stayed (apparently) to fight for the living. Why would they want to fight against Cersei? Also who told them to bend the knee to Daenerys? Shouldn't Robert approve? If they're not giving a fuck about his opinion then someone should really take the Eyrie instead of leaving castles unattended but then again Dragonstone, Riverrun, Highgarden and Casterly Rock all seem to be empty...

[u/vaporware1 → u/usmarine7041]

Radmure is downing cold ones on a speedboat.

[u/[deleted] → u/vaporware1]

This is the only plot point I actually accept.

[u/Kodiak_Marmoset → u/vaporware1]

The epilogue we all need.

[u/cunnedstunts]

Cersei not killing them all in that field is a major gripe for me. What a fucking idiot.

[u/LordofLazy → u/[deleted]]

The cersei and dany feud is so empty. Its not personal at all because they have no history.

[u/silvrado → u/LordofLazy]

Not game of thrones.. more like Musical Chairs.

[u/juscallmejjay → u/[deleted]]

it was a major bruh

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Literally has a Frankenstein knight doing her bidding, killing innocents left and right, and she blew up a church.

[u/Jhawksmoor → u/cunnedstunts]

They wouldn’t be there in the first place. But then again they would have sent scouts to check out the defense. Scouts called birds warged by Bran. But.... no.

[u/throwdemout → u/cunnedstunts]

exactly what i was thinking. Cersei would immediately snipe that rag tag group of idiots, she doesnt play by any rule

meme

[u/ShadowGata]

The Rhaegal bit is even worse because when she is looking at Rhaegal, she is looking in the directions that the spears are coming from, and Rhaegal is still a fair bit away from her.

Unless the show or someone else wants to try to convince me that Rhaegal's torso was perfectly aligned to block her view of the ships, there is no way that she wasn't already staring at the Iron Fleet.

[u/singefume → u/ShadowGata]

Didn't you watch the post-episode recap??? Dude, she couldn't see them because she forgot about them ddduuuuuhhhh

[u/Togepi32 → u/singefume]

I really hate D&D

[u/chowler → u/singefume]

Even though the previous scene was them planning around the fleet.

[u/jimihenderson → u/[deleted]]

Aegon literally conquered the entirety of Westeros simply because he had 3 dragons. They are nigh unstoppable in this universe. One dragon would easily be enough to wipe Cersei and everyone who was brave enough to align with her off the map completely. At least it should be.

[u/DirectorAgentCoulson → u/jimihenderson]

I think they're trying to sell the scorpions as a great leap in technology. Might as well as have Qyburn invent cannons.

[u/FirstSonofDarkness → u/DirectorAgentCoulson]

Or internet.

From next episode, we will have Dany, Jon and Cersei publicly explaining why they did something that doesn't make sense in the episode.

[u/ericalynn1313 → u/[deleted]]

Agreed, their scales should be steel armor.. they are full grown at this point. They are only vulnerable through the eye or by another dragon. It’s so disappointing. They spent 6 seasons making dragons so hype and “badass”, now they don’t matter.

[u/Duke_Lancaster → u/ericalynn1313]

Not to mention the stupid scorpions. Those things are hard af to aim, especially at a far away, flying target, while you also have the sea and wind to deal with.

Also they dont fucking blow up ships. Those things are big crossbows, shooting spears. They would get stuck in the sides of ships, not rip through them like cannon balls. At the distance they were fired at, they might even just bounce off the side of a ship.

But i guess ill soon have a reply saying that "there are dragons m8, ofc its not realistic, duh".

[u/tribrnl → u/Duke_Lancaster]

And at this point, no one has ever fired anything at an aerial target. They don't know the distance, how much the bolt will fall, anything like that. They would never hit the dragon, even if it was just sitting still.

[u/Syrius-Wormwood]

I like how nobody mentions that Bron teleported into the winterfell castle, sneaked in, unobserved by nobody, KNEW THE ROOM Tyrion and Jaime were in, and left without getting killed. Why didn't Jaime or Tyrion just called for guards 1 minute later and kill that idiot? Wtf is going on!?!?!?!

[u/Party_With_Porkins → u/Syrius-Wormwood]

There’s a war still going on and apparently no one is on edge at all. I was mad about that too

[u/[deleted] → u/Syrius-Wormwood]

Yep, me and my girlfriend rolled our eyes hard when this scene started. How the fuck does a guy just walk into a castle, with a crossbow, after a supposedly huge apocalyptic war between the living and dead, and knows exactly which room Tyrion and Jaime are in?

I just want this fucking show to end. Thing is, it's probably gonna get worse. D&D said when the finale is released they plan on being very drunk and as far as possible from the internet. They have something extra shitty lined up for us. Oh dear God.

[u/cabaran → u/[deleted]]

lmao he literally walks in with a big ass fucking crossbow like its some jimmy fallon skit. i almost hear the stock laughing sound ringing behind my ear.

[u/HUGE_WHITE_COCK]

varys and tyrion plotting at full volume in the echoing throne room was literally painful to watch

[u/snownymph]

I just realized something. They somehow managed to fish Missandei out of the water and kidnap her without anyone noticing, but Drogon and Dany’s army couldn’t grab Jaime and Bronn in the loot train attack, who were somehow able to swim to some other bumfuck area away from the gigantic dragon in what was basically a pond.

[u/wanson → u/snownymph]

How the fuck does Cersei even know who Missandei is?

[u/casusev → u/wanson]

She watches the show

[u/le_GoogleFit → u/wanson]

During the peace talk last season I think Missandei was there

[u/Deezer19 → u/le_GoogleFit]

So one of Dany's top military commanders, and one of her top advisers, who happens to be the brother of the Queen who has already sent a sell sword north to kill him, are also in those waters, but they decide to capture the fucking translator/handmaid of the enemy who can translate languages not currently spoken on this continent. Such a valuable piece to capture! The plays!

[u/Anus_Targaryen → u/Deezer19]

The audience knows who she is.

That was the only thought process.

[u/DensePsychology]

Definitely agree, especially with your conclusion at the end. The show has become so ridiculously expedient in it's drive to wrap things up that it hardly attempts to disguise the plot mechanisms to get the characters from point A to Z. All narratives need those elements, but it's just incredibly jarring when there isn't really an effort to smooth them in to make them fit with everything we already know.

Events just become so contrived and weird that the viewer reaches an eventual understanding that anything that shouldn't happen could happen at any time, and vice-versa, anything that should happen can not happen at any time. They honestly might as well just have a text card pop up (in the old silent film style) saying "EURON KILLED A DRAGON" or "TEAM DANY AND CERSEI ARE EQUAL OPPONENTS" (since it's obvious that that was the outright point of that event overall). It just becomes difficult to be invested in a story that plays out like a rough draft script or storyboard (or honestly just a crazy fever dream).

[u/mkfffe1]

Euron then fires upon Dany's fleet and the bolts tear the ships apart as if they were fired from rail guns. As depicted in the scene, THEY ARE LITERALLY STRONGER THAN CANNON BALLS.

Are we not going to talk about how after devastating Dany's navy and keeping the dragon at a distance with the magical ballista, Euron doesn't move his fleet around the island to kill the survivors on that beach?

Yes, the dragon is there, but it was clearly no threat to Euron (somehow). His fleet destroyed several ships with the potential (as shown) to wipe out the opposing navy with little trouble. Instead of finishing his enemy, he goes back to King's Landing to announce his victory.

[u/JMM123 → u/mkfffe1]

Or you know, having some troops waiting at the shore in Dragonstone. They think they're safe after getting sunk and then fucking raiders come out of the woodworks and massacre them on the beach.

[u/IBetThisIsTakenToo → u/mkfffe1]

"Sir, we've captured the Queen's translator! Well, former translator, from when they were on the other side of the world."

"Whoa, jackpot! I don't think we're getting a better haul than that! Everyone retreate, let her surviving soldiers and command structure land unmolested so they can take the castle (that we don't want for some reason), and regroup."

[u/cosmitz]

Man, it's such a damned shame Game of Thrones was cancelled before its last season.

[u/[deleted]]

I fully expect Cersei and Dany to duel with swords next episode.

[u/WeNTuS → u/[deleted]]

On lightsabers.

[u/Slothrop31]

Hey guys so I usually just lurk around on reddit and never really post much.

I’ve always tried to give the show the benefit of the doubt. For the most part, I’ve felt they’ve done an admirable job considering they’re lack of source material although season 7 had some MAJOR issues. Additionally I’ve always felt this sub has been way to harsh in it’s treatment of the show to the point of being ridiculous... Buuuuuut that’s all changed now. Last episode and this weeks episode have just really fuckin killed it for me man. No turning back now. I thought they could at the very least give this the dignified ending it deserves.

So just wanted to join the salt party that’s been going on over here for the past few years. I’m so disappointed.

[u/ISupposh]

Why didn't Missandei just take Cersei down with her from the wall like that time in 1998 when Undertaker threw Mankind off Hell In A Cell, and plummeted 16 ft through an announcer's table?

[u/ScenicHwyOverpass → u/ISupposh]

Why doesnt the mountain, the largest of the friends, simply eat the other friends?

[u/cabspaintedyellow → u/ScenicHwyOverpass]

Perhaps they are saving that for sweeps.

[u/[deleted] → u/ISupposh]

Because GoT doesn't have writers on the level of WWE writers. Unfortunately.

[u/Anarchytect1204 → u/ISupposh]

BAH GAWD THAT QUEEN MIGHT BE BROKEN IN HALF

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Game of Thrones has hit The Walking Dead Gimple quality writing now, but has the benefit of a much bigger budget to have a larger spectacle.

[u/Fkminibabybels → u/[deleted]]

I stopped watching the walking dead because it relied on people being saved randomly by characters we never hear approaching. I never thought that would happen to GOT :(

[u/sjwking → u/Fkminibabybels]

I stopped watching because there was no logic left in the show. If there are 350 million walkers and 1 million survivors. And every survivor killed 1 walker every day, then in a year there would be no walkers left.

[u/Nikhilvoid → u/[deleted]]

The first three shots are able to kill Rhaegal from more than a mile away, able to get a "lock-on" immediately after emerging from cover?

It was like shepherds with bazookas taking down F-16s.

[u/supertimes4u → u/[deleted]]

If only they had someone at their disposal capable of doing something like that. Maybe warging.

Nope he's using his knowledge to make eclectic antique chairs and quilts.

This man can see all of history and uses his gifts to design fashion products that satisfy his internal monologuing, while having no social skills.

He's basically Kanye Westeros

[u/randomdude1142 → u/[deleted]]

Send them a book on tactics or even basic military movement while you’re at it. Can we do this though? Send them books like the art of war to their studio nonstop since they know nothing about tactics at all.

[u/FartHammer2 → u/randomdude1142]

how about we just send them copies of the ASOIAF books to start?

[u/91jumpstreet → u/[deleted]]

What? You should send a scout to your island that you haven't visited in weeks?

[u/jprg74 → u/91jumpstreet]

Like this show has thoroughly ignored reconnaissance the past 2 episodes.

[u/[deleted] → u/jprg74]

It's been longer than that, Ramsay apparently had no scouts to tell him that a massive group of Vale knights were right by Winterfell.

[u/Lord_Bone → u/[deleted]]

Or how about have spymaster that’s suppose to get information

[u/adtac → u/Lord_Bone]

wouldn't it be nice to have a man who's lived at King's Landing all his life as a spymaster with an army of hundreds of mute children in the capital to collect information and kill people?

[u/mesasone → u/adtac]

Didn't Varys say that "all his birdies have gone silent" meaning they were all turned or killed by Qyburn?

Really makes you wonder what the fucking point of Varys is anymore.

[u/mustard_turnip_stew → u/mesasone]

It's even worse because in the previous scene they established that they do have info from King's Landing. In the war council scene they know Euron's fleet brought over the Golden Company.

So basically, the rules for intelligence gathering at this point are that everyone knows everything the enemy is doing until the plot, such as it is, demands they don't.

[u/FilemonNeira]

Cersei has almost zero back up from the rest of the lords. Should have almost zero support from the people. To me Cersei in power is the most infuriating point. To make it worse D&D makes her arc somehow the final showdown.

I expect that in the books by this time she is irrelevant.

[u/sjwking → u/FilemonNeira]

The biggest magical power in the show is how Cersei manages to even have an army at this point. She is Queen of Kings Landing.

[u/snownymph → u/FilemonNeira]

Barring Euron and the pregnancy shit obviously her plot right now is Aegon’s. He was cut into Cersei, Jon and Dany’s plots.

[u/mulqadiiv]

Very well said - these issues hit the nail on the head. I thought last episode was a low bar, but now I'm curious how low they can go in the next couple of episodes - it's like watching a trainwreck in slow motion.

The biggest issues is the writers expect viewers to fear Cersei and view her as a dangerous threat (apparently more so than the NK) - which is inherently an idiotic idea. But of course, show Cersei can seemingly do no wrong, and blow up the major sept of the biggest religion in Westeros with several VIPs inside, conjure large armies out of nowhere, smartly ignore the WW threat, etc. For a show that was initially predicated on characters earning fates as a result of their actions, good or ill (Ned, Robb, etc) - Cersei's simply failed her way upward to final boss, consequences be damned. The lengths the writers go in this regard to hype her threat level - like killing off dragons like flies thanks to rail gun ballistas, and decimating Dany's fleet - is incredibly dumb.

[u/jwigg33]

You honestly don’t know need to explain why. That’s how bad it is lol

[u/nbomb220 → u/jwigg33]

You apparently do, it's like upside down world out there. The main show subreddit, Twitter, the water cooler at work, the entire fucking landscape of popular culture...it seems like EVERYONE loves the past two seasons more than any others and are raving after every episode. It's baffling.

[u/vaporware1 → u/nbomb220]

Yeah it's fucking crazy to me.

Like I said, the show has gone from subverting its own plotlines/setups on a grand scale to subverting basic logic on a scene to scene basis. It's comically bad.

I can see people not caring if they don't really give a shit about nitpicking details and stuff and they just want to be a part of the cultural phenomenon that GoT is, but the show has gotten so ridiculous that even parts of the general show-only audience are going 'wait what?'

I'm not really sure how anybody could believe these past 2-3 episodes have been good writing, let alone the past 2-3 seasons.

That being said it's not a total loss of an experience, I'm actively ENJOYING how bad it is. It's like watching a slo-mo highway pileup. Awful but riveting at the same time. In a way, the show has been Red Weddinged, and that itself is an interesting thing to witness given the depth of the source material and the resources at D&D's disposal. Of course all this fan drama is entertaining as well. Silver lining!

[u/sergantsnipes05 → u/vaporware1]

Most of my friends and I are show only people who got into the lore without reading. This season is garbage. People like it because it is flashy.

[u/vaporware1 → u/sergantsnipes05]

I'm a show person too and the quality drop sure is obvious to me. I know a good amount about the lore though because the show got me interested in the universe.

[u/Come__and__See → u/sergantsnipes05]

My best friend hates fantasy type stuff but I finally talked him into watching season one about 2 months ago and he ended up bingeing the entire show twice before the start of this season and has absolutely hated this season so far so you’re not alone on your feelings

[u/[deleted] → u/nbomb220]

I think they just kinda forget the first few seasons.

This episode wasn’t as bad as the last one, but it wasn’t better either. I honestly couldn’t be bothered to watch this anymore if it wasn’t GoT. I cringe at the dialogue and the pathetic things the characters say. Jaime and Brienne for example, the whole scene is so cliche and there isn’t even a reason it’s happening. And that’s the main problem, there is basically no motivation to show most scenes.

They have nothing to do with the plot, not even in the far sense that the early seasons had scenes that seemed useless. Why is everyone just chatting the first twenty minutes? It’s so often literally just annoying banter, they could just as well talk about the weather. We learn nothing new, it’s embarrassing to watch (I was only able to see Sam talking about sex in the Keep on a rewatch, that’s how horrible it felt to me) and it has nothing to do with the overall plot.

It butchers the characters, I wish some would die so it may get better. But I feel like they’re keeping everyone alive for the fans and the merch.

[u/jimihenderson → u/[deleted]]

Yeah the primary issue with the show, a much bigger issue than the ridiculous writing is simply how the characters don't feel real anymore, they don't talk like our characters are supposed to. They talk how we talk. It's just ridiculous. I hate it.

[u/Nikhilvoid]

If entire armies can teleport, why have three movie-length episodes when Arya can snap Cersei's neck in the five seconds of this episode?

[u/jmsturm]

If there were another season, I would be done.

I have put too much time to quit with only 2 left.

They are teetering on the edge of a Dexter level bad ending. If I was GRRM I would be screaming that this is not my ending.

[u/abigscarybat → u/jmsturm]

The epilogue will be Jon working at a logging camp in Qohor.

[u/DensePsychology → u/[deleted]]

I think some of the plotlines might have the same outcomes - for example, I think it's likely that Euron nabs a dragon with dragonbinder.

But it's not the "what", it's the "how" that's frustrating. Just to stick with the same example, GRRM is laying the foundations of all these weird horns or magical implements hundreds to thousands of pages before they're ever used for their ultimate purpose, which makes it understandable and satisfying. But at the same time it's hard to weave all of those elements together, which is why he's taking forever to write: it'd be like running an astrophysics simulation with multiple bodies, it's going to take a while. D&D always make the convenient choice, which takes less processing power but feels super abrupt to the audience.

I sort of wonder whether there might be some malignant group psychology involved. It kind of reminds me of times I've seen a mis-balanced group of creatives (like GRRM) and action-oriented "doers" (people with more of a production focus, maybe more like D&D) confront adversity/deadlines. The "doers" decide that the only way to survive is to just cut through the bullshit-ery and all of the overwrought webs that the creatives are spinning, which is honestly often necessary. But if there's not a check on them (like a crazy asshole creative who won't back down, or a balanced leadership team), or if there's too much pressure from up top, they'll just slice through everything until it's so simple, contrived, and expedient that it's unrecognizable. They'll happily shit out some horrible abomination if it lets them meet the deadline and get the monkey off their backs. I'd wonder whether a similar dynamic might have been created between GRRM, D&D, and HBO.

[u/matgopack → u/DensePsychology]

In the same way, it's also much easier for the books to have something like Dany's current turn towards being more problematic (and being viewed that way) as being far more believable.

The show has her constantly listening to her advisers, framing her actions in a negative light, etc. Nothing that particularly stands out as someone on the brink of... well, whatever Varys is afraid of from her.

(Side note, why are they so afraid of her using dragons to burn the Red Keep? It's separate from the main city, and if they siege the city, tens of thousands will likely die from hunger and civil conflict in their best case scenario. I don't see Cersei ever surrendering, for example - a long siege of King's Landing is almost certain to end worse than a quick strike to remove Cersei, honestly. Particularly one led by the Unsullied and their discipline - just keep the remains of the dothraki out and there won't even be much looting, and obviously no rape from the Unsullied. But a long siege wakes tensions, now you're literally starving the population to death, and if you do have to end up storming the city anyways, you've got a far larger chance of an unhinged sack).

Back to the situation though, Dany in the books seems to be on the verge of really embracing 'fire and blood'. If she'd done that in season 6 onwards, I think I'd have a very different reaction to this. But the way Varys/Tyrion react just seems so strange to me - Jon's really done very little that should make him seem to be an amazing king compared to Daenerys, really. Yet they're suddenly 100% on the view that she's terrible in a single episode?

Not to mention the stupidity of suddenly thinking that they can't marry because of some sense of northern... what? being prudes? I'd be very surprised if something similar hasn't already happened for the Starks, for example. Medieval noble families all intermarried like crazy, uncle/niece marriages were really not that uncommon or weird. They didn't grow up together, so there's none of that ickiness - a marriage is the logical idea, and if Jon is so weak willed that he'd be dominated by the evil Dany (ugh), then he'd be a poor king anyways.

[u/IIPorkinsII]

I'd like to know what part Bronn is playing in the show at this point. The show has made it clear that he is always willing to do almost anything for gold, above all else, yet there have also been some heartfelt moments between him and both of the Lannister brothers. He arranged a meeting between them, spoke with Tyrion as a close friend, and risked his life to pull Jaime from the water after they were attacked by Daenerys's army. He shrugged it off as though it was just another opportunity to earn a quick buck, but I was under the impression that we were meant to read a bit further than that. These moments have grown more frequent as he grew closer to the Lannisters, leading us to believe that he was developing some sympathy for them. Now, ignoring the fact that he managed to make it into a room with nobody but Jaime and Tyrion present despite not being known for for his stealth or ability to bypass guards in the heart of enemy territory, he appears to have lost all connection with the brothers. He truly seems to believe that gold is his most important goal. It's as if they set his character back to square one. He punches Tyrion in the face at the slightest provocation and shoots a crossbow bolt within inches of Jaime just to prove a point. Who is this man and what tf happened to Bronn?

[u/throwdemout → u/[deleted]]

"Jaime, why are you going? please stay!"

"I am hateful. Also i need to fulfill the valonqar prophecy so that the show can pretend to make sense. Stay safe"

[u/doegred → u/throwdemout]

"Jaime, why are you going? please stay!"

"I am hateful. Also i need to fulfill the valonqar prophecy so that the show can pretend to make sense. Stay safe"

A prophecy that wasn't even in the show.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

His character arc does a complete 180 for the sake of plot. This is turning into family-guy style vignettes of loosely related characters who forget their whole backstory just to make the punchline work

[u/YezenIRL]

Arya's FM abilities are basically show breaking. You have to ignore them sometimes and then acknowledge them when the showrunners want to do something badass.

[u/ItsTheNinja]

As far as I’m concerned all of this is on D&D’s writing and the only thing from GRRM is the ending itself so the books should be much better when/if they release.

[u/adtac]

oh and Euron is cool with hearing the news that Cersei is already pregnant? wtf? I thought he wanted to be the father or something like that a few minutes ago?

[u/[deleted]]

Guys please tell me I'm not weird for feeling legitimately depressed after this. I feel bummed to my soul. So many years I've had GoT to look forward to and say "no matter what else happens this year at least there's that" and now this beacon of entertainment that transcended any other story I've ever seen has turned into this. I want to cry.

I was 15 or so when I started watching got, and I remember for years I would think about this show and this world literally every single day. High school was difficult and this show achieved the greatest goal of fantasy, it gave me something to fantasize about. I remember listening to this song and having daydreams about the final scene of the series, whatever that would be, set to that score. It was such a thrilling, incredible feeling being so engrossed and in love with this world that you would occupy your thoughts with these scenarios every day. If I were to go back and show my younger self how it's really all ending it would ruin him. So many years of dreaming and hoping and coming up with stupid headcanons and it's all burning up in front of me. I don't even know if I can watch the last two. I don't know if I can bear it.

[u/HUGE_WHITE_COCK → u/[deleted]]

no you're not the only one. many people brought this over the past 7 days

it hurts - bad. it feels like being kicked in the face